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Suggested adjustments to morphs of Shadow Cloak.
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BoxFoxx✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »I'm going to preface this by saying that that my comments are in the context of magNB, not stamNB which as others suggested can get much better mileage out of cloak by being able to combine it with dodge roll
@BoxFoxx, my interpretation of your comments is that you suggest a cost increase to cloak, potentially with an associated duration increase, because you don’t believe that invisibility should be able to be used in an extended fight, as if they are playing the stealthy route they should basically only get one shot to kill otherwise flee or die.
I disagree with your suggestion as I think it would push nightblades that want to play stealthy to go full ganker to be successful, and that if you want to be able to go toe to toe you have to give up stealth and play as a brawler.
You are overlooking one of the other, and in my opinion enjoyable, ways of playing a magNB, where you play in light armour and your primary defence is to avoid damage. This playstyle is built more around sustain than damage, which means you can’t gank but instead defeat players by going toe to toe. However you do it in a rogue like way, trying to evade damage and make it hard for the opponent to lock you down while keeping the pressure on. Playing like this cloak becomes an offensive and defensive tool that is weaved among other abilities to either set up opportune crits, stuns with concealed weapon, or evade your opponents burst as you simply can’t afford to take high damage at once due to no real burst heal. Often cloak would not be used for more than a GCD as staying cloaked for longer gives up all pressure put on the opponent. Having an increase cost on cloak would have a large negative effect on this playstyle, and the suggested duration increase would be of no benefit.
Now, you may find that this playstyle annoying or frustrating to play against, but I don’t think it is an overpowered use of cloak. Instead I find it really comes down to you vs the opponent using the right skill at the right time and this can be quite an enjoyable tactical challenge for both. For example if I predict an opponents skill that I can cloak to evade and then can follow up with an immediate concealed, I gain the advantage. But if the opponent predicts the cloak and use something that counters it and applies pressure (basically any aoe) just as I use it my magicka spent is effectively wasted, plus I take damage, and I am suddenly at a severe disadvantage.
Obviously my opinion in this matter is bias as I primarily play magNB, but I just wanted to contribute my experience playing the class and point out that your suggested change would definitely negatively affect non-ganker magNB that still want to be able to play in a "rogue" style.
My main character is a MagBlade bro... but I appreciate your feedback. I believe that if a player wants to go toe to toe in PvP, stealth should be an expensive option, even taking playstyles into consideration.
Besides, it would be more of a challenge to stamblades than to magblades given the magicka pool... I am honestly trying to make a fair suggestion that I genuinely feel will be better balanced. My preference would be for the base cost of Shadowy Disguise to be higher and for it to work similar to roll-dodging, as stealthing does cause miss, where the expense would increase when overused. The added duration should balance it out for PvE and suit other styles in PvP. Duration can be long, 6 seconds even, but spamming it during combat even when you've been decloaked, which is easy just by adding distance or kiting, should be nerfed. This way if a Nightblade goes into stealth, they have a choice, reingage and loose cloak early with an increased cost on the next cloak or stay in cloak and regain resources but risk the opponent to also regain resources. It would have to be a call of circumstance and more or less force NBs to use it more wisely and carefully.
If you want to make a Nightblade build that is more combative, you can always choose the other morph (Dark Cloak instead of Shadowy Disguise) that doesn't give you invisibility but more protection.
I would like to add, that with my suggestion it will still be used and still be valuable to current playstyles. Just toned down to make more sense in toe to toe combat.Edited by BoxFoxx on May 14, 2019 11:41PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭idk... you are refusing to try to understand what I'm saying... I am only saying that stealth should be unsustainable during combat. That's it! I'm not complaining about, I'm suggesting that that should be the way it works! My build was a test to see how strong certain features of the NB class are... dude... if you can't understand that, you're kind of an idiot.
I'm sorry. You asked for my aggressive response.
I total understand what you are saying.
You are saying when against a good player you are having challenges using cloak correctly. If you were using it correctly then then the NB would not be using cloak.
Pull them out of cloak then kill them. If it takes more than a few seconds to kill them then use the counter again so they cannot enter cloak.
It really is that simple because the counters do work and work well.I really can't keep coming back here to argue with people. I thought we could have an honest open discussion.
You state you have an issue and "tested it" then posted a suggestion. The issue is you do not want to hear feedback that your findings are incorrect. Basically, it seems more like you are not pleased people are not agreeing with you.
Based on my years of testing the counters work great. Especially mage light. All I can say is I do not have the issues you have so something is wrong with the build or technic.
Edited by idk on May 10, 2019 10:08PM1 -
BoxFoxx✭✭✭idk... I don't mind if people disagree with me... what I do mind is when people make assumptions about me... to assist with the development of your understanding, I've edited the original post to more accurately reflect the intentions of this topic without the possibility of you targeting me specifically.
I hope you finally get it.Edited by BoxFoxx on May 10, 2019 11:41PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.idk... you are refusing to try to understand what I'm saying... I am only saying that stealth should be unsustainable during combat. That's it! I'm not complaining about, I'm suggesting that that should be the way it works! My build was a test to see how strong certain features of the NB class are... dude... if you can't understand that, you're kind of an idiot.
I'm sorry. You asked for my aggressive response.
I total understand what you are saying.
You are saying when against a good player you are having challenges using cloak correctly. If you were using it correctly then then the NB would not be using cloak.
Pull them out of cloak then kill them. If it takes more than a few seconds to kill them then use the counter again so they cannot enter cloak.
It really is that simple because the counters do work and work well.I really can't keep coming back here to argue with people. I thought we could have an honest open discussion.
You state you have an issue and "tested it" then posted a suggestion. The issue is you do not want to hear feedback that your findings are incorrect. Basically, it seems more like you are not pleased people are not agreeing with you.
Based on my years of testing the counters work great. Especially mage light. All I can say is I do not have the issues you have so something is wrong with the build or technic.
No you don't understand... because you keep coming back and completely missing the point, instead insisting on my technique!!! It's not about that. It's about the cost of Shadowy Disguise. I could have created this post even without testing this ***. There are plenty of YouTube clips that will verify cloak spamming is OP. Regardless of what you think of my "technique" which you know nothing about... stop trying to BS me and assuming things!
No, I do get it and as I have stated if you are pulling them out of stealth effectively. Effective use of the counter means they are not able to cloak. Period.
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LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭Sigh, another one of these topics....
Most stamblades in no-cp (which is what the game should be balanced on) can cloak 3 or 4 times back to back before they are out of magicka. Building for more cloak sustain means less damage so already has a build in balance.
Cost increase on subsequent cloaks mean that I can cloak only twice back to back on my stamblade. With all the AOE, often cloak breaks nearly instantly. Someone spamming AOE then doesn’t only damage me, but also increases the cost of cloak as I try to get away. Sounds balanced.
It would also destroy magblades who rely heavily on cloak for survivability, and which is already considered one of the weakest PvP specs.3 -
BoxFoxx✭✭✭Sigh, another one of these topics....
Most stamblades in no-cp (which is what the game should be balanced on) can cloak 3 or 4 times back to back before they are out of magicka. Building for more cloak sustain means less damage so already has a build in balance.
Cost increase on subsequent cloaks mean that I can cloak only twice back to back on my stamblade. With all the AOE, often cloak breaks nearly instantly. Someone spamming AOE then doesn’t only damage me, but also increases the cost of cloak as I try to get away. Sounds balanced.
It would also destroy magblades who rely heavily on cloak for survivability, and which is already considered one of the weakest PvP specs.
I understand where you're coming from man... but don't you think the considerations of a "weak spec" is catergorized by playstyle. There are so many aspects to PvP... . Also don't forget duration. Is the 3-4 four time cloak because of the duration? What if it was longer? What if 1 or 2 cloaks were equal to what 3-4 cloaks are now. For a magblade it should be like a buff... less cloaking longer duration. The only thing is you will have to consider these options before engaging combat. Yes your options will change and maybe for the average NB who carelessly enters a fight, it may seem like a debuff, but with the right adjustments in playstyle it should work well. You may even like it better!
The following video is old, but the skills function the same to this day. I actually ran across a player just like this the other day. I just want to say I don't personally have a problem with this. I'm just using it as an example of the possibilities of exploitation that most players may not be aware of. Keep in mind this video features a stamblade, not a magblade. In theory, this is seriously OP, but since so few players get to this level, as of the moment, it isn't given much attention. However, it does reveal balance issues that could be refined.
Pay attention to how the other players are reacting, resing and such... it's because they can't see him and don't even have a clue to his ability for attack so often in cloak, let alone with such high dps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N6VHXqkwdo Edited by BoxFoxx on May 12, 2019 8:42PM0 -
khajiitNPC✭✭✭✭✭I suggested a health threshold when magicka cost increase would kick in. I main a stamina NB, and build more into magicka recovery for the sole basis of shadowy disguise, that paired with speed pots I can pretty much get out of any hairy situation.
I think they should rework magelight increase duration and size, or revert mark target to its longer duration.
Yes there are a lot of things that pull us out of stealth, but to pretend as tho a majority of those things work well is very misleading.0 -
BoxFoxx✭✭✭I don’t think I agree with the health threshold man... only because one good heal would nullify that.1
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LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭Sigh, another one of these topics....
Most stamblades in no-cp (which is what the game should be balanced on) can cloak 3 or 4 times back to back before they are out of magicka. Building for more cloak sustain means less damage so already has a build in balance.
Cost increase on subsequent cloaks mean that I can cloak only twice back to back on my stamblade. With all the AOE, often cloak breaks nearly instantly. Someone spamming AOE then doesn’t only damage me, but also increases the cost of cloak as I try to get away. Sounds balanced.
It would also destroy magblades who rely heavily on cloak for survivability, and which is already considered one of the weakest PvP specs.
I understand where you're coming from man... but don't you think the considerations of a "weak spec" is catergorized by playstyle. There are so many aspects to PvP... . Also don't forget duration. Is the 3-4 four time cloak because of the duration? What if it was longer? What if 1 or 2 cloaks were equal to what 3-4 cloaks are now. For a magblade it should be like a buff... less cloaking longer duration. The only thing is you will have to consider these options before engaging combat. Yes your options will change and maybe for the average NB who carelessly enters a fight, it may seem like a debuff, but with the right adjustments in playstyle it should work well. You may even like it better!
The following video is old, but the skills function the same to this day. I actually ran across a player just like this the other day. I just want to say I don't personally have a problem with this. I'm just using it as an example of the possibilities of exploitation that most players may not be aware of. Keep in mind this video features a stamblade, not a magblade. In theory, this is seriously OP, but since so few players get to this level, as of the moment, it isn't given much attention. However, it does reveal balance issues that could be refined.
Pay attention to how the other players are reacting, resing and such... it's because they can't see him and don't even have a clue to his ability for attack so often in cloak, let alone with such high dps.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N6VHXqkwdo
Thing is, beside being 1.5 years old with many skill changes since that is also CP-enabled which throws balance out of the window. The game should be balanced around no-CP battlegrounds imho. Secondly, most of his mitigation comes from dodge roll, not cloak. Finally, his fights are against inferior opponents that somehow have no AOE in the build, don't use the soul assault ultimate, and don't use detection potions. When at 6:40 he takes on some more competent players that know how to fight NB's he fails and has to burn both his resource pools to (barely) escape, and its actually the other friendly player that does most of the work and allows him to one by one kill them over a period of time.
You can post similar video's of every single class in the game, annihilating groups of less capable players. Should all of these classes have some core ability nerfed because of that? Probably not a great idea to base class balance on the performance of the 0.1% elite.Edited by LordTareq on May 13, 2019 9:54AM0 -
BoxFoxx✭✭✭It's easy to miss the mitigation from disguise because there are no attacks incoming. If you count the number of times he stealths versus roll-dodging, he uses them both pretty often actually. Besides roll-dodging has the expense increase on useage. Is it so much to ask to do the same for Shadowy Disguise?
Is the suggestion to do that along with a duration increase really that much of a nerf? If it's that much of a big deal to you or others to 1vX potatoes, I ask where your values are? Besides the video shows how sustained invisibility during combat is OP. It's for a specific point about the expense of the skill. If someone posted a similar video of 1vX with other classes what purpose would it be for? Which skill is the subject? If there is no skill in question, (i.e. Mistform on tanks), but if you're not using it for subject use, well you really cannot make a comparison for demonstration can you?...Probably not a great idea to base class balance on the performance of the 0.1% elite.
Well first of all, it's certainly not that absurdly low of a percentage. Second, consider learning curve. As the game evolves, players learn and evolve too. They watch videos on YouTube, they jump onto forums... at some point, "the elite" will no longer be a minority and then the balance issues will become more of a concern. Nipping it at the bud is not a bad idea, (although hardly just a bud anymore).
I reiterate, is the suggestion really that much of a nerf? In fact, in some playstyles, it would even be a buff! The class and style should still perform rather strongly and more suitably.
PS... I do like the video creators playstyle by the way. Use to be a fan before he stopped creating... as mentioned I am only using it for unbiased subject use for the suggested adjustment being discussed.
EDIT: The comments below were condensed into this post for easier reading.Edited by BoxFoxx on May 14, 2019 11:13AM0 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭It's easy to miss the mitigation from disguise because there are no attacks incoming. If you count the number of times he stealths versus roll-dodging, he uses them both pretty often actually. Besides roll-dodging has the expense increase on useage. Is it so much to ask to do the same for Shadowy Disguise?
Dodge roll is also far more reliable, and you have ways to significantly reduce the cost.Is the suggestion to do that along with a duration increase really that much of a nerf? If it's that much of a big deal to you or others to 1vX potatoes, I ask where your values are?
Yes, because in group pvp cloak is often near-instantly broken by all the AOE and haunting curses etc. Meaning it it will actually take 3-4-5 cloak attempts to actually cloak.Besides the video shows how sustained invisibility during combat is OP. It's for a specific point about the expense of the skill.
In a CP campaign. Honestly the issue here is the ridiculous champion points system that allows players to compensate for any weaknesses. What he does is not really possible in no-CP battlegrounds unless significant damage potential is sacrificed to increase magicka regeneration and/or magicka pool.If someone posted a similar video of 1vX with other classes what purpose would it be for? Which skill is the subject? If there is no skill in question, (i.e. Mistform on tanks), but if you're not using it for subject use, well you really cannot make a comparison for demonstration can you?
Because when a Nightblade player posts a 1vsX video its misused as evidence that cloak is overpowered. Meanwhile where are the topics crying for nerfs over Honor the Dead used by a Templar player soloing 6 potatoes at the same time? No people just say its a really good templar player. But when its a nightblade, nerf cloak!
PS... I do like the video creators playstyle by the way. Use to be a fan before he stopped creating... as mentioned I am only using it for unbiased subject use for the suggested adjustment being discussed.
You are not unbiased (and neither am I).2 -
BoxFoxx✭✭✭Cool man, I respect your opinions...
Yes, because in group pvp cloak is often near-instantly broken by all the AOE and haunting curses etc. Meaning it it will actually take 3-4-5 cloak attempts to actually cloak.
Honestly, I think considerations should be taken by players choosing to use the NB class in group PvP... just because disguise has weaknesses in certain situations shouldn't mean it should be allowed to be OP in other situations. If you want to play a Nightblade in the situations you're speaking about, you have the other morph available to you.
Dodge roll is also far more reliable, and you have ways to significantly reduce the cost.
No argument there... strengthens my point in fact considering when both are used in combination.In a CP campaign. Honestly the issue here is the ridiculous champion points system that allows players to compensate for any weaknesses. What he does is not really possible in no-CP battlegrounds unless significant damage potential is sacrificed to increase magicka regeneration and/or magicka pool.
I agree with you somewhat, but if you can balance it out, what harm is there? Isn't that a good thing? Oh also too, if you go to his channel he has plenty of videos in BGs as well, almost forgot about that... so I guess you can check your theory there.Because when a Nightblade player posts a 1vsX video its misused as evidence that cloak is overpowered. Meanwhile where are the topics crying for nerfs over Honor the Dead used by a Templar player soloing 6 potatoes at the same time? No people just say its a really good templar player. But when its a nightblade, nerf cloak!
No offence but that comment is totally misplaced... the video demonstrated the sustainability of disguise, which is the topic at hand.You are not unbiased (and neither am I).
Great thanks for your personally targeted remark! I was warned by a moderator for addressing such comments! Baiting, I believe it was called? I can introduce him to you if you like!?
EDIT: The comment below was condensed into this one for easier reading.Edited by BoxFoxx on May 14, 2019 11:12AM0 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭
It wasn’t meant as a personal attack or something. But you seem to be under the impression that you are unbiased, which is simply not the case. It’s a scientific impossibility to be a completely neutral observer, and in your case it’s certainly not the case as you partake in a competitive aspect of a game and regularly fight against (or as) a class that you propose changes for.
I’m not unbiased either as I both play a NB and mostly partake in no-CP battlegrounds, which colours my perspective as well.
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BoxFoxx✭✭✭
This is definitely baiting man, whether you realise it or not. I don’t agree with what you think about me and I don’t want to get into with it with you. You’re still addressing me personally. I don’t appreciate that and I think what you're stating about me is wrong, whether you think of yourself that way too or not.
It wasn’t meant as a personal attack or something. But you seem to be under the impression that you are unbiased, which is simply not the case. It’s a scientific impossibility to be a completely neutral observer, and in your case it’s certainly not the case as you partake in a competitive aspect of a game and regularly fight against (or as) a class that you propose changes for.
I’m not unbiased either as I both play a NB and mostly partake in no-CP battlegrounds, which colours my perspective as well.
It only takes common sense on what I was trying to say in the comment above about the video and the intention for use of it in this thread. You’re being excessively particular of what word I use and are nitpicking the comment... maybe you don’t realise it but you’re baiting me to argue with you by projecting onto me assumptions on what my own personal viewpoint is.
We can get into a whole off topic argument on what biases are, but I’m not gong to do it... this can go very badly. It should be obvious that what I meant was I am not anti-NB or pro-NB... which is what I meant by unbiased... besides I said, "for unbiased subject use" and didn’t reference myself directly as you did. You were personally targeting me
I've taken all available PvP gameplay (dueling, BGs and CP campaigns) into consideration when I created this topic.I’m not unbiased either as I both play a NB and mostly partake in no-CP battlegrounds, which colours my perspective as well.
I am open to discussion about the topic, but please not personal assumptions about people.
This thread was created as a suggestion. I think it's a solid suggestion that would genuinely make the class function better, hence why I am even putting the time in to discuss it, but if the suggestion is not taken into effect, I can accept it and easily move on. Honestly, I am thinking about the community more than myself actually, believe me if you will, it's the truth. This is what I meant by unbiased... or do you prefer:
equitable
honest
impartial
nonpartisan
open-minded
even-handed
fair
just
nondiscriminatory
objective
straight
unbigoted
unprejudiced
Just not sure what can be nitpicked, so more options might help?
Ok let's move back to the topic, please.
EDIT: The comments below were condensed into this post for easier reading.
Edited by BoxFoxx on May 14, 2019 12:32PM0 -
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BoxFoxx✭✭✭Orginal Posted Updated... findings on experimenting with NB class...
Dark Cloak: Added burst heal similar to Coagulating Blood on a DK0