Ildun wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

I hear what you're saying, but no, not really. Surprise attack =\= ganking

A surprise attack on an undergeared, unaware PvE player is not ganking.

Yeah, I heard it is call as griefing. They do not do it for any benefit, but just to irritate or ruin other player's gaming experience.

Huh?

Everyone in Cyrodiil willingly queued up for a PVP zone where enemy players are a valid target for AP and quests like "Kill Enemy Players."

Killing and getting killed by other players is pretty much the whole point of the PVP gaming experience.

If that's "irritating", well...

Maybe try actually preparing for entering a PVP zone next time, and accepting that as an enemy player, you are in fact a valid target?

mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »

I mean, hey, you want PvE players to stop hating PvP and do IC?

Tell your PvP buddies to stop camping the quest zones.

Going to be honest here, there's not really a lot of people in IC. Mostly the ones who are going to kill you are people farming bosses. If you hit their boss, try to take their flags, etc., they're going to kill you. A lot of times if I'm farming bosses, I normally let questers go, but as soon as they hit me once, hit the boss I'm farming, or step on any flags, they're dying.

Of course, this is all going to change with Elsweyr because there will not be as many instances of IC, so be prepared to be killed a lot if you refuse to get a PvP build together to go into IC.

IC is the ONLY PvP DLC this game has, so I think it's a bit unfair that questers think they're entitled to not get killed in it.

mague wrote: »

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

I don't understand the PvE players' hate for PvP. I don't see any PvP players hating PvE much but everytime I visit the forums and read some discussions, I always see PvE players spitting hate for PvP.

Are you trying to bait ?

The real reason is not PvP itself, but gankers. Active and passive gankers.

So if I ROFLstomp a PVE player who is exploring/questing in Cyrodiil without using stealth, that's okay?

If I ROFLstomp the same PVE player who is exploring/questing in Cyrodiil from stealth, that's not okay?

Maybe it's me, maybe I don't understand the term ganker.

Black_Flame wrote: »

The whole “PVE vs. PVP conflict” is just a fake concept created by those on the forums and fuelled by fundamentalism from a minority of players. It does not represent the reality of the game. While many players may have a preference on which gameplay they enjoy most, the majority simply engage in a hybrid of PVE and PVP gameplay. It is important to recognise that most players do not use the forums and so it cannot be taken as evidence of how players think in the game. Hence, there is no real “hate” from either PVP or PVE players because the entire concept of “PVE players” or “PVP players” is flawed.

ooooh boy you should've seen the forums during the pvp part of the anniversary event.

PvErs hate and blame PvP for all the Nerfs in the game even when Devs directly state otherwise.
Cause y’know NPC’s don’t complain when a Skill is obviously over performing and they would rather have all Skills doing 20k plus damage than to have any kind of balance and challenge.

sadly a lot of pvers blame pvp for zos balance change (while actually many nerfs are not pvp oriented but for some reason they need a culprit to make them feel better)

zyk wrote: »

I think PVE deludes players into thinking they're really good at ESO and it's really shocking when PVP brings reality crashing down.

Yeah, I'd go so far as to say that this is a bit of a core problem with ESO in general--overworld tells you you're the best...and then at some point (dungeons/vet dungeons/DLC vet HMs, Trials, PvP) you realize that you aren't...

There is, I think, a curve in place (delves--public dungeons--normal dungeons--vet dungeons--trials/dlc dungeons etc), but people sometimes skip that and go from overworld to vet Scalecaller or some nonsense. And the same in PvP--on paper, nonvet PvP--noCP PvP--CP PvP looks like it would provide a learning curve, but nonvet/noCP are often just as or almost as competitive, which leads to that curve being more of a right angle.

kylewwefan wrote: »

The problem with PvP is the lag it’s so bad in Cyrodil. It’s worse than the worst lag in ln trials.

The best fix for it has seemed to be BATTLEGROUNDS! They’re a lot more fun then Imperial City quests in my opinion. Though, I have been sitting on the win 3 matches for awhile now

I built my toon specifically to be great in laggy times. 2 staves, resto and lightning that I can just hold heavy attack and still hit opponents when the game is choppy. Add in the triple fire ball so that it will hit, unsurprisingly triple the targets, and Time Freeze to cause more lag intentionally (sorry, not sorry) and finish it off with the much maligned Illambris to tag more opponents and I can eat popcorn while getting credited with 12 kills that I had little to actually do with. Gotta play that slice!

I'm a PVE player who enjoys PVP, because there is a thrill involved that isn't there in PVE. I come from games like AION where PVP in the midst of your PVE experience was once a way of life, and I learned to love it. There's something about knowing you're in the danger zone and either eluding or participating in the fight that I find exciting. I enjoy Cyrodiil's fort taking mechanics, and I think I would enjoy Imperial City if it were more active because it reminds me a bit of AION's old Tiamantara's Eye, where PVE is mingled with PVP and you get the thrill of taking down that boss while knowing at any moment the enemy could arrive to complicate things.

Though with that said, there are also reasons I dislike PVP- mostly because of certain behaviors within the community. It has nothing to do with the act of PVP itself, or getting killed, but a lack of enjoyment for what one might call "PVP culture". Certain attitudes and mindsets that not everyone has, certainly, but are prevalent enough that I wont touch the battlegrounds unless I'm going in with friends who just want to chill and have fun, win or lose, even if I really like the games and mechanics.

In truth, however, those attitudes aren't much different from some of attitudes you see among PVE players- they're only different on the surface. Which is also why I tend to avoid certain aspects of PVE.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd have a lot more fun in both if people were a little more relaxed about the whole thing, and I think there are many PVE players who would learn to enjoy PVP if there weren't as much pressure involved, since they already endure that from their own community.

That's my perspective on the whole thing, anyway.

Though I will also say that I understand why a PVE player might dislike the feeling of being killed by another player. Many of you are saying it has to do with ego, but in truth I think it has more to do with our own innate human instinct to survive. In PVP you are entering a situation that is unpredictable- you cannot control it, there is no real way to learn precisely how your enemy is going to implement their attacks even if you are knowledgeable concerning their skill set. Where as in PVE, the mobs do not vary or adjust their tactics based on your actions, they are predictable and you almost always know what you are dealing with.

PVP in and of itself is also more aggressive. I can see why it would be unpleasant to think that another mind is behind the character coming at you, and it's coming at you with actual intent rather than an AI which cannot think for itself. I think a PVE player might also find the idea of killing someone elses character repulsive for the same reasons- they are wholly aware that there is another person who thinks and feels behind the keyboard, and it's much different conceptually than killing a mob controlled by an AI. It's a thing that has less to do with ones pride being wounded than it does the moral implications of what PVP represents, and wrapping ones head around how this can be fun for people.

I'm typing all of this up because these were things I had to over come many years ago when I began playing AION and entering into situations where I was encountering PVP. A huge shift in mindset was necessary for me to enjoy it- instead of viewing it as an visceral experience (which is how I think our brains naturally react to the concept of killing and be killed at first, even if it is just a virtual environment- you are engaging the fight or flight reflex after all) I began seeing it as a game of tag or capture the flag. If I get killed, I've been tagged and I'm out, and start again. It was what helped me to disengage from seeing my deaths as something personal to seeing them as part of the game.

Then there is the fact that many PVE players also view their characters as characters to RP with and be played out- which isn't to say that PVP players don't, since I know there are RP players within the PVP community as well. But to some, the idea of their character being killed by an actual person can be repulsive, and even if you don't understand that or get it, I've known people who have thought that way. Again its not really about ego or pride, but more to do with "yuck, I hate the idea of killing others or of others wanting to harm me". No, it isn't real- but the brain is still reacting to the idea that some part of you is in danger until you teach it otherwise.

Some people might not have that experience at all- some people may adjust to the concept of PVP immediately and never have to develop a new mindset, because competition is what they enjoy. And that's okay. We all operate differently. This is mostly a detailed explanation of what I think is going on in other PVE players heads based on personal experience.

Cookies to anyone who read that wall of text. Just wanted to offer a different POV from a PVE player who learned to enjoy PVP and went through the hurtles. It is difficult for some to develop those mental filters. It was hard for me, but eventually I did.

Best example being the pushback experienced on these very forums for the implementation of the justice system.

I think this had less to do with the involvement of PVP (though that is a major factor) than it did the fact that the idea of a PVP justice system is fundamentally flawed. If a thief is stealing from an NPC, they affect no one. If a bounty hunter apprehends the thief to take their bounty and items, they are then affecting the gameplay of a real person- actually taking money and items from them. In essence, they would be the ones committing the true theft. It's lopsided and unfair, why should you suffer consequences imposed on you by a real player for doing something that doesn't affect anything but an NPC? A system like this would only work if a thief could steal from another player, which is something I never want to see happen. I enjoy PVP but this system does not seem enjoyable to me at all, unless I'm chasing down someone who has actually negatively impacted another player.

First of all it's a computer game, so people will on average behave worse than usual. Second, I understand PvEers (who are sometimes very set in their ways and builds) who don't like it when their characters constantly get changed because of PvP qq (the blame is squarely on ZOS who lack the confidence to design their own game in this respect).

You gold out a set, patch nerfs it. Skills get altered, then nerfed, then changed again (NB ulti.. )... You work out a good DD build based on enchantments, ZOS out of the blue halves enchantment values.

And IC and events aren't exactly good pvp advertising. You try to do a story quest in IC and get stunlocked and obliterated in 1.4 seconds by someone hopping around like a rabbit, while you read a quest lorebook. You go to your alliance's 'home' Cyro town for a daily quest, poisoninjectionincapacitatingstrikesteeltornaaaaaaaaaado respawn.

Lastly, it is simply my experience and honest opinion that a significant portion of competitive online gamers are just insufferable people. ESO is an age 18+ game. If you are a legal adult, kill someone you don't know in an online game who minds their own business, and then proceed to 'teabag' them - you're an idiot.

There is good fun to be had in Cyro as well, just it is mostly not my cup of teabag.

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I disagree, if you look through the thread where people are discussing the quality of the IC storyline, you will find many players with a good amount of disdain for PVP as a whole, Including it’s players, mostly referred to in the negative as “gankers”. Arguing that PvE content shouldn’t be “locked” behind PvP gameplay.

I somewhat agree on the idea that he concept of the two playstyles is flawed. Because it makes more sense to define the two groups as “players open to the possibility of some PvP” and “those that refuse to play anything where their may be a chance of engaging in PvP gameplay”.
Group one here can even consist of people that only play trials they simply may not prefer PvP to PvE gameplay.

And to prove your point incorrect, I’m willing to admit a certain level of disdain for group 2, but only when their opinions and preferences negatively effect the enjoyment gained from certain game types of group 1. Best example being the pushback experienced on these very forums for the implementation of the justice system.

I understand where you are coming from, but again the views of those on the forums cannot be taken as a representation of what players actually think in the game because the majority do not use the forums. To use your example, the Imperial City thread only has 1.8k views, yet millions of people play the game, so evidently that does not portray how most players think about the Imperial City storyline. Therefore, backlash on the forums about the Justice System does not necessarily indicate how the rest of the players feel.

I don’t just think the concept of two play styles is flawed, I think the whole idea of defining people with distinct play styles is flawed. I think it would be more accurate or at least productive to describe gameplay as a spectrum that players engage with in varying degrees. Perhaps one plays 80% PVP and 20% PVE, and another plays 50% PVP and 50% PVE. Play styles may also be determined by the level of participation of those types of gameplay. For example, a player may only engage in zone questing and not even attempt dungeons or trials. Furthermore, this does not include other aspects of gameplay, such as exploration or crafting, which further complicate such definitions of play styles.

I don’t say this to be overly complicating, I say it because the forums keep generating a false narrative that there is somehow a conflict between PVE and PVP players, which is just not the case. We will always have our reasons why we may prefer one element of gameplay over another, but I just think that people need to be more respectful of how other people play the game, regardless the type of player someone is. These types of threads do the opposite.

I think the major difference is that npcs don’t teabag you. Would be funny if they did though.

I hate pvp but I do the daily to get the 100k exp.
Forcing players into pvp is not the way in my opinion.

Because the AI doesn't T-bag you?