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The Elsweyr Expansion: A Lack of Necromancer Focus
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Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭Non tester forum qq count does not equal dev focus. When the incap silence change happened and blew up the forum, it's quite possible they spent 2 seconds and said, "fine, add break free as a counter" and went on with their day. Just because 5 threads stay near the top for a week doesn't mean they looked beyond that.
I know I certainly would be reluctant to wade into 13 pages of qq that got posted before a single player had a chance to test anything. I certainly wouldn't continue reading after I already knew what the next step was and the qq brigade didn't.
What is your source of info that the devs themselves spent excessive time on nb? The break free solution doesn't inherently demonstrate that.0 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Colecovision wrote: »Non tester forum qq count does not equal dev focus. When the incap silence change happened and blew up the forum, it's quite possible they spent 2 seconds and said, "fine, add break free as a counter" and went on with their day. Just because 5 threads stay near the top for a week doesn't mean they looked beyond that.
I know I certainly would be reluctant to wade into 13 pages of qq that got posted before a single player had a chance to test anything. I certainly wouldn't continue reading after I already knew what the next step was and the qq brigade didn't.
What is your source of info that the devs themselves spent excessive time on nb? The break free solution doesn't inherently demonstrate that.
The last 3 patches of the PTS have focused on NB changes with little addressed about the Necro.That said, the goal of this thread is with regard to Necromancer performance and its shortcomings, not Nightblades. Please don’t derail the discussion with something off topic.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Vercingetorix wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »
Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.John_Falstaff wrote: »Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.
As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^
Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).
Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.
Honestly, the Death Knell passive has much more use in a class like the DK for reasons I explained above to someone else. DoT ticks are the best way to capitalize on a high critical chance, but even then in a PvP environment you need some sort of burst to end the fight otherwise you're at the mercy of RNG crit frequency as well as your opponent being unable to respond somehow.
Same argument for PvP. The closer you are to 100% crit chance, the less variation you will see with your crits, the less dependent on randomness you are. If you have 95% crit, and on average get to land, say, two hits to execute opponent, then again, on average, you'll have downed about ten opponents until you will see a non-crit in execute.
The only problem with PvP though is the issue with crit resistance playing a factor in negating most of the damage inflicted, largely countering any possible effect that passive would have had. The necro is forced to find some sort of burst elsewhere to combat this issue. Also, in both instances stacking your crit chance with your Grave Lord abilities can be detrimental or even counterproductive to what you’re aiming for. Using crits without burst to execute in PvP is likely to backfire more often than not. In PvE, this is obviously less of an issue and you are right that it would be of great benefit there.
That's already another story, and it doesn't seem like ZOS has any qualms about pigeonholing people into crit builds even for PvP. I'm khajiit, just in case, imagine what a thrill it is to have a passive that's garbage for PvP and at best pigeonholes into glass cannon gank builds. But seems like it's okay in ZOS' book.
Frankly, one change I would have made is to make Death Knell affect healing. Having every healing tick crit (for others or for necro himself) under 25% health would've been bumped survivabiity in PvP and made necros better healers in general.1 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »Non tester forum qq count does not equal dev focus. When the incap silence change happened and blew up the forum, it's quite possible they spent 2 seconds and said, "fine, add break free as a counter" and went on with their day. Just because 5 threads stay near the top for a week doesn't mean they looked beyond that.
I know I certainly would be reluctant to wade into 13 pages of qq that got posted before a single player had a chance to test anything. I certainly wouldn't continue reading after I already knew what the next step was and the qq brigade didn't.
What is your source of info that the devs themselves spent excessive time on nb? The break free solution doesn't inherently demonstrate that.
The last 3 patches of the PTS have focused on NB changes with little addressed about the Necro.That said, the goal of this thread is with regard to Necromancer performance and its shortcomings, not Nightblades. Please don’t derail the discussion with something off topic.
I relpied to your false op and asked for a source. That's on topic. Obviously you don't have one. You have no idea about the dev time management, just forum qq. If you don't want me to respond, don't respond. It's not your choice to declare yourself final statement overlord.1 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.
As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^
I don't think the class as a whole needs it, just a magicka morph that acts as a execute. Stam has access to both the crit boost and execute, no matter what you say, it's not a god scene. We have another situation that rewards stam way more then magicka, its seems like thay want to push all new magicka builds into a healing corner and make stam the killers. I don't even think they spent much time considering anything for magicka dps and put most of their efforts in building for stam. I mean, just look at the passives.Temeraire507 wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »
Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.John_Falstaff wrote: »Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.
As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^
Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).
Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.
Honestly, the Death Knell passive has much more use in a class like the DK for reasons I explained above to someone else. DoT ticks are the best way to capitalize on a high critical chance, but even then in a PvP environment you need some sort of burst to end the fight otherwise you're at the mercy of RNG crit frequency as well as your opponent being unable to respond somehow.
In PvE you are very likely going to be sitting on 100%+ crit in execute at all times with this passive. A normal trial player runs with at least 65% crit (buffed) and as a necro you are very likely going to to slot enough abilities (2-4 depending on your setup) at least on your front bar to hit that. There is no RNG when every hit is a crit.
You are all forgetting that stam has this crit bonus plus execute options. It severely limits magicka dps in comparison, I even think they built the passives just for stam dps, certainly feels that way, magicka doesn't exactly have good dot options.2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Tessitura , you don't mean Whirling Blades? I frankly think that it's well on its way to a nerf, it was overbuffed to the point where it's a better spammable than single target abilities. So it might be that stamina will yet lose its good execute to add to Death Knell passive. Though with ZOS, anything is possible of course.0 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@Tessitura , you don't mean Whirling Blades? I frankly think that it's well on its way to a nerf, it was overbuffed to the point where it's a better spammable than single target abilities. So it might be that stamina will yet lose its good execute to add to Death Knell passive. Though with ZOS, anything is possible of course.
Its still a effective execute, go on to the pts and see, and even if it wasn't it is still an execute regardless that stam gets, and they still get reverse slash and its morphs. plus Poison Injection, which benefits greatly from the passive, and its a execute. Most necros wont be stack for that crit anyway thanks to the janky corpse mechanics, so stam pulls out ahead with the options to combine that crit bonus with their executes. No matter how to try to slice it, magicka gets a really short stick in comparison thanks to stam's ability to have their cake and eat it too. I don't think that means stam needs a nerf, just give magicka a execute.2 -
Revokus✭✭✭✭✭Why play a magnecro in cyrodiil when magsorc is 100 % times better ? Magnecro zerg class it is ! Meh.Edited by Revokus on May 14, 2019 3:48AMPlaying since January 23, 20161 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It appears the purpose of this thread is to praise the NB nerfs since the first two sentences, a majority of the first paragraph, are praising the NB nerfs.
But honestly, the PTS is not done yet, there is still this week and I am pretty sure Zos has made changes between the last PTS update and the update going live. Early on they even made changes that were not tested in the slightest.
Further, if something is not working right and it is not fixed yet Zos might still be working on a fix. If that is the case it may or ma not be fixed before the update goes live and that is just life.0 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why play a magnecro in cyrodiil when magsorc is 100 % times better ? Magnecro zerg class it is ! Meh.
They pretty much copied over the warden's class structure but left in all of the mistakes. Skull is just as clunky as Bird, for example. Magicka clearly wasn't even considered when they designed this class which is TERRIBLE because a Necromancer is a caster first and foremost. I don't know what happened over in their studio but they seem to only pool feedback from PvP players who practically play nothing but stamina. PvE players would have immediately called out ZoS on the myriad of issues plaguing the magicka variant when they were designing the class. This chapter release is going to be a disaster when the masses start trying to play the class and begin walking away after they realize this class has major design flaws.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”2 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Plenty of us play Magicka in PvP, and 100% didn't want a pseudo-copy of the Magicka Warden. In fact, I was hoping that the Magicka Necromancer would be a valid replacement for my Magicka Warden for PvP, but thus far I'm sorely disappointed.Vercingetorix wrote: »Why play a magnecro in cyrodiil when magsorc is 100 % times better ? Magnecro zerg class it is ! Meh.
They pretty much copied over the warden's class structure but left in all of the mistakes. Skull is just as clunky as Bird, for example. Magicka clearly wasn't even considered when they designed this class which is TERRIBLE because a Necromancer is a caster first and foremost. I don't know what happened over in their studio but they seem to only pool feedback from PvP players who practically play nothing but stamina. PvE players would have immediately called out ZoS on the myriad of issues plaguing the magicka variant when they were designing the class. This chapter release is going to be a disaster when the masses start trying to play the class and begin walking away after they realize this class has major design flaws.
That said, it does at least "feel" like the Ricochet Skull has less delay than Screaming Cliff Racer, so that's an improvement I guess.1 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭I dont know why the necromancer class spammables need to be weaker than weapon/guild skills. The Scythe spammealbe just seems to be bad. Maybe Im wrong I didnt test necromancer too much.0
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wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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The Scythe is weaker because it can hit multiple targets and has a heal attached. Ricochet Skull had the exact same tooltip value as Elemental Weapon for me, and will get a 20% boost every third cast (as well as potentially "ricochet" and hit up to 2 other targets).Murador178 wrote: »I dont know why the necromancer class spammables need to be weaker than weapon/guild skills. The Scythe spammealbe just seems to be bad. Maybe Im wrong I didnt test necromancer too much.
I'd need to play around with the Ricochet Skull a bit more to be sure, but I think the projectile speed is kind of decent, and faster than a Magicka Warden's Screaming Cliff Racer. If that is indeed the case, I don't really have too much to complain about when it comes to the skull; it's the lack of other good offensive tools (for PvP especially) that has me so disappointed with the Magicka Necromancer.0 -
I think my greatest disappointment in the player Necromancer is how little death magic is anything but an aesthetic.
Even NPC necromancers have better abilities and longer duration pets...
How exactly is it an actual necromancer if you can't have a sustained undead pet to travel with, when all named NPC necromancers just can't shut up about all the undead armies they have surrounding them?
Consider it this way, how many dungeons have you wandered through, with undead around, where a necromancer has to keep summoning them to maintain the population?
A sorcerer can have two, freely moving, combat active pets at once, and a stationary as well for ultimate.
But the absolute specialist in death magic can't sustain ANY mobile combatant pets...
Why, in all the lore for Elder Scrolls, are Necromancers so feared?
After detaching them from their signature capability of raising undead armies, there is no focus left.
Why would anyone ever fear them raising a horde of undead? They're wimps.
It would take a horde of necromancers to even put up the appearance of an army, and that would end in moments.
Just my opinion, your own mileage may vary...
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Dracheimflug✭✭✭Kieros_Farwander wrote: »
Why, in all the lore for Elder Scrolls, are Necromancers so feared?
After detaching them from their signature capability of raising undead armies, there is no focus left.
Why would anyone ever fear them raising a horde of undead? They're wimps.
It would take a horde of necromancers to even put up the appearance of an army, and that would end in moments.
Just my opinion, your own mileage may vary...
Most necromancers in the original games are not that fantastically tough either though. Necromancers are traditionally feared mostly because they are manipulating souls and can thus do worse to people than kill them.
And the truly feared necromancers, such as Mannimarco, use more than just conventional spell chucking, but boost their effectiveness massively with large scale rituals and ancient artifacts. To use a superhero example, Thanos is innately incredibly powerful but no one on Earth had really heard of him until he got the Infinity Stones and became orders of magnitude more powerful.Edited by Dracheimflug on May 15, 2019 8:08AM0 -
Grandesdar✭✭✭
I was thinking they cut down persistent pets just to save more on performance, then you made realize sorcs already have 3 of them. This is unacceptable. Even wardens have one even if it costs two bars ulti. I really really want them to go back on this. Push back the necro release even if they need to.Kieros_Farwander wrote: »I think my greatest disappointment in the player Necromancer is how little death magic is anything but an aesthetic.
Even NPC necromancers have better abilities and longer duration pets...
How exactly is it an actual necromancer if you can't have a sustained undead pet to travel with, when all named NPC necromancers just can't shut up about all the undead armies they have surrounding them?
Consider it this way, how many dungeons have you wandered through, with undead around, where a necromancer has to keep summoning them to maintain the population?
A sorcerer can have two, freely moving, combat active pets at once, and a stationary as well for ultimate.
But the absolute specialist in death magic can't sustain ANY mobile combatant pets...
Why, in all the lore for Elder Scrolls, are Necromancers so feared?
After detaching them from their signature capability of raising undead armies, there is no focus left.
Why would anyone ever fear them raising a horde of undead? They're wimps.
It would take a horde of necromancers to even put up the appearance of an army, and that would end in moments.
Just my opinion, your own mileage may vary...
Just look at how other necros in other games do it. Guild wars 2 necro has like 10 pets, all persistent. You'd have hard time where the summoner is when you see them like an army.Edited by Grandesdar on May 15, 2019 9:21AMMain: The Charismatic StamDK DD
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