The Elsweyr Expansion: A Lack of Necromancer Focus

Vercingetorix

Apparently, the focus of Elsweyr was to finally provide a long-overdue Nightblade nerf and seemingly ignore everything else that needed fixing. Necromancer, the supposed focus of the Elswyer expansion, has been largely IGNORED by mostly getting occasional bug fixes and not much else.

The sustain of the Necromancer is terrible. The corpse consumption mechanic on cast skills is still buggy and doesn't fire off properly half the time. For example, the Tether and Siphon abilities in the toolkit are sadly situational at best because of tying those abilities to a corpse's location instead of simply consuming a nearby corpse to directly cast the spell where you want it. The end result is a class with two essential abilities being a hassle to even fire off properly (one of which is a strong DoT for DPS) - WHY WASN'T THIS PROBLEM FOCUSED ON? Necromancer lacks a class execute and has a sub-par passive that pretends to be an execute despite having an existing skill that could thematically work as an execute (Scythe). Where's the standard Major Sorcery/Brutality buff skill for the class? Why is there STILL an annoying weave disruption with the skull ability, just like the Warden's bird? Why have such a crippling limit on Beckoning Armor's pull effect that it makes it nearly useless?

The PTS is over and you're shipping an expansion with an incomplete class - AGAIN.

I made suggestions in the thread regarding improving these abilities. I've listed them here for quick reference:

If Siphon was based on simply consuming a nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allowing you to choose your target for the effect, the ability would actually be pretty good. Similar to Zaan or Malubeth, a beam would form between you and the target, dealing damage to them and those who cross the beam. While it holds, you'd gain magicka or the stam morph would cause the target to have an explosion (like Daedric Curse).

As for Tether and its morphs, you could consume a corpse as an additional cost and then you simply get the effects applied to you for the duration. Simple and still thematic in line with a Necromancer without the clunky corpse-aim-on-the-ground limitation that currently exists.

ecru

an expansion is being released with a new class whose abilities don't even hit the bosses in the new trial. lol.

JondarKorric

ecru wrote: »

an expansion is being released with a new class whose abilities don't even hit the bosses in the new trial. lol.

except they do hit the bosses. anyone with Combat Metrics can tell you that. I finished a normal Sunspire run with a group that consisted of almost all Necromancers the only 2 that weren't necros was one of the tanks and one of the healers.

ecru

JondarKorric wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

an expansion is being released with a new class whose abilities don't even hit the bosses in the new trial. lol.

except they do hit the bosses. anyone with Combat Metrics can tell you that. I finished a normal Sunspire run with a group that consisted of almost all Necromancers the only 2 that weren't necros was one of the tanks and one of the healers.

I'm referring specifically to siphon. I've been in sunspire 2-3 times a week since pts was opened on a necro. The ability does not hit any of the dragons.

Grandesdar

I thought I was only one testing the necro class, thanks for this thread.

I got so many things to say, first things first, there is not enough stam morphs! And some magicka skills give stam back.
1. The whole healing oriented tree consists of full magicka skills and mag morphs, if I didn't skip any. I don't want another class as fragile as stamblades in pve.
2. Tanking tree is, well, made to be slotting them together in. It's not like I can slot one of them to increase chances of survival in a dps stam build.
3. Again, not enough stam morphs to make a stam DD unless you use it for the archer and rest of the skills from wep, undaunted and alliance lines.
4. Many skills look like reskins of Warden skills. As a warden healer, I felt like I was still playing a warden with a legendary necro skin with a couple of other skills from DK or weapon skill lines. The shalks, healing field, frost cloak etc. Was there any unique skills except for 3-5 secs of reanimations? I'm not even sure. They were all pretty lackluster. I know all the classes share some skills or similar mechanics, but everyone knows the chain is unique to DK, or templar's javelin etc. and how unique they feel.

I preordered the chapter thinking I'd get a stam necro, but now I'm having second thoughts. I still love the new world and the dragons, motifs etc. But the new class was the main reason for me to get into it as early as possible.

I'm a console player, haven't played on PC for years so it felt really weird. Maybe part of the reason I disliked how I felt during the gameplay could be that.

Can someone explain what kind of playing style should I expect before I go and cancel my pre order? I really want to enjoy it without regrets, I do, really.

Excelsus

I'm pretty sure ZoS has like 3 combat team members. Theyve even admitted on stream its a very small team (ridiculous for a very profitable 5 year old mmo with a rapidly expanding population). What should've happened was the initial nightblade nerfs came out and nightblade mains sucked it up, hey, this is fair, we've been top dps for two years. But there was forum uproar and Zos has to spend the pts giving unneeded buffs like silence and mitigation to try to appease the nightblades. I also think not enough people tested/spoke out about necromancers. Its very squecky wheel gets the grease around here and the vocal pvp crowd who overwhelmingly either play nb or have strong opinions on nb dragged all the attention away from necro.

wheem_ESO

Mystic Siphon is also terrible in PvP; virtually impossible to land, and does very poor damage even when it does. It was cited as an "area denial" ability in one of the livestreams a few weeks ago, but most certainly does not actually function in that way. "Uh oh, I better not enter that area or I'll get hit by Mystic Siphon and take less than half the damage that I'd eat from a single bleed over the same time span!"

I posted about multiple Magicka Necromancer issues for PvP within the first couple days of the PTS, and the only relevant change that I can think of was a nerf to the Blastbones' health.
1) The corpse mechanic is still hard to use effectively, especially when lots of movement is required.
2) The Blastbones' pathing is still bad + easily countered when used from range.
3) The Skeletal Arcanist's damage is still weak (especially vs Stam builds, due to widespread Major Evasion), and its target can't be chosen.
4) Mystic Siphon's damage is still weak and too hard to land.
5)Avid Boneyard's small area of effect and lack of snare/root/other CC mechanic will make it mostly useless for PvP, even if its self-synergy activation was made less janky (which can be a problem even in PvE, since some NPCs can push you out of the tiny area right in the middle of it).

My post was made just a few days shy of a month ago, and there haven't been any relevant improvements since. It's seeming ever more likely that Magicka Necromancer is just going to be Magicka Warden all over again; overall very clunky offense that's too easily countered in PvP, but may get nerfed anyway due to Stamina Necromancer being strong (mostly due to the generic Stamina toolkit being really good, and many of Blastbones' issues being lessened by melee range + having Major Defile attached to the Stamina morph).

IzzyStardust

JondarKorric wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

an expansion is being released with a new class whose abilities don't even hit the bosses in the new trial. lol.

except they do hit the bosses. anyone with Combat Metrics can tell you that. I finished a normal Sunspire run with a group that consisted of almost all Necromancers the only 2 that weren't necros was one of the tanks and one of the healers.

Also sorry but normal is no serious test of anything.

It’s too easy, too forgiving and just nope.

Not arguing with you as such; but normal - where you can survive a lot more is not a good testing ground.

Vercingetorix

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mystic Siphon is also terrible in PvP; virtually impossible to land, and does very poor damage even when it does. It was cited as an "area denial" ability in one of the livestreams a few weeks ago, but most certainly does not actually function in that way. "Uh oh, I better not enter that area or I'll get hit by Mystic Siphon and take less than half the damage that I'd eat from a single bleed over the same time span!"

I posted about multiple Magicka Necromancer issues for PvP within the first couple days of the PTS, and the only relevant change that I can think of was a nerf to the Blastbones' health.
1) The corpse mechanic is still hard to use effectively, especially when lots of movement is required.
2) The Blastbones' pathing is still bad + easily countered when used from range.
3) The Skeletal Arcanist's damage is still weak (especially vs Stam builds, due to widespread Major Evasion), and its target can't be chosen.
4) Mystic Siphon's damage is still weak and too hard to land.
5)Avid Boneyard's small area of effect and lack of snare/root/other CC mechanic will make it mostly useless for PvP, even if its self-synergy activation was made less janky (which can be a problem even in PvE, since some NPCs can push you out of the tiny area right in the middle of it).

I'm convinced that if Siphon was based on simply consuming a nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allowing you to choose your target for the effect, the ability would actually be pretty good. Similar to Zaan or Malubeth, a beam would form between you and the target, dealing damage to them and those who cross the beam. While it holds, you'd gain magicka or the stam morph would cause the target to have an explosion (like Daedric Curse).

As for Tether and its morphs, you could consume a corpse as an additional cost and then you simply get the effects applied to you for the duration. Simple and still thematic in line with a Necromancer without the clunky corpse-aim-on-the-ground limitation that currently exists. Right now, I fear the Necromancer has so much potential but will ultimately be cast aside because it still needs work as a class to be competitive with what already exists.

Darkenarlol

OP as you said NB needed changes for years

while NM is not even on live yet

NM class gonna get some attention...later (looking at magdens lol)


i've been expecting more NM-oriented changes too

but we have what we have

darkblue5

Most of the best bug/functionality fixes come in the incremental patches after the class hits live tbh. I wouldn't be too worried.

ecru

Vercingetorix wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mystic Siphon is also terrible in PvP; virtually impossible to land, and does very poor damage even when it does. It was cited as an "area denial" ability in one of the livestreams a few weeks ago, but most certainly does not actually function in that way. "Uh oh, I better not enter that area or I'll get hit by Mystic Siphon and take less than half the damage that I'd eat from a single bleed over the same time span!"

I posted about multiple Magicka Necromancer issues for PvP within the first couple days of the PTS, and the only relevant change that I can think of was a nerf to the Blastbones' health.
1) The corpse mechanic is still hard to use effectively, especially when lots of movement is required.
2) The Blastbones' pathing is still bad + easily countered when used from range.
3) The Skeletal Arcanist's damage is still weak (especially vs Stam builds, due to widespread Major Evasion), and its target can't be chosen.
4) Mystic Siphon's damage is still weak and too hard to land.
5)Avid Boneyard's small area of effect and lack of snare/root/other CC mechanic will make it mostly useless for PvP, even if its self-synergy activation was made less janky (which can be a problem even in PvE, since some NPCs can push you out of the tiny area right in the middle of it).

I'm convinced that if Siphon was based on simply consuming a nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allowing you to choose your target for the effect, the ability would actually be pretty good. Similar to Zaan or Malubeth, a beam would form between you and the target, dealing damage to them and those who cross the beam. While it holds, you'd gain magicka or the stam morph would cause the target to have an explosion (like Daedric Curse).

As for Tether and its morphs, you could consume a corpse as an additional cost and then you simply get the effects applied to you for the duration. Simple and still thematic in line with a Necromancer without the clunky corpse-aim-on-the-ground limitation that currently exists. Right now, I fear the Necromancer has so much potential but will ultimately be cast aside because it still needs work as a class to be competitive with what already exists.

Yep, Siphon would work much better this way. The way it works right now is really clunky, unintuitive, and hard to get "right" consistently even on large trash packs. I guess Sunspire isn't the best place to test it because the trash likes to hop all over the damn place, but I suppose how clunky it is in situations like that is just more evidence it won't be useful in pvp at all.

ZOS, why not just let us consume a corpse and tether to a target?

Vercingetorix

Excelsus wrote: »

I'm pretty sure ZoS has like 3 combat team members. Theyve even admitted on stream its a very small team (ridiculous for a very profitable 5 year old mmo with a rapidly expanding population). What should've happened was the initial nightblade nerfs came out and nightblade mains sucked it up, hey, this is fair, we've been top dps for two years. But there was forum uproar and Zos has to spend the pts giving unneeded buffs like silence and mitigation to try to appease the nightblades. I also think not enough people tested/spoke out about necromancers. Its very squecky wheel gets the grease around here and the vocal pvp crowd who overwhelmingly either play nb or have strong opinions on nb dragged all the attention away from necro.

I understand that this is clearly what happened, but at least Warden at release had a good stamina build for PvP. The Necromancer has really nothing going for it because of the problems we've all listed on this thread. The best the community can do is combat these spammed Nightblade posts with many constructive feedback posts of Necromancer performance to get changes for our class after the initial launch. We need to flood ZoS with data, videos, and clear explanations of what and why we need certain changes to abilities or Necromancer is going to suffer the magicka Warden's fate on arrival.

DeadlyRecluse

As soon as I read the necro skills, the entire mechanic seemed cool, but super clunky. My opinion hasn't changed.

It really reads as a super cool class from a different game, imo. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't match the flow/feel of ESO combat, imo.

Vercingetorix

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

As soon as I read the necro skills, the entire mechanic seemed cool, but super clunky. My opinion hasn't changed.

It really reads as a super cool class from a different game, imo. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't match the flow/feel of ESO combat, imo.

There are some abilities and passives that remind me of the Necromancer class from Diablo III. However, ZoS' execution of the corpse mechanic should NOT have been based on the corpse's location - it just needs to consume nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allow you place the Siphon or gain the effects of Tether directly. This would clear up a lot of the clunky corpse management that currently exists without abandoning the thematic feel of using corpses to empower your magic.

DeadlyRecluse

Vercingetorix wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

As soon as I read the necro skills, the entire mechanic seemed cool, but super clunky. My opinion hasn't changed.

It really reads as a super cool class from a different game, imo. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't match the flow/feel of ESO combat, imo.

There are some abilities and passives that remind me of the Necromancer class from Diablo III. However, ZoS' execution of the corpse mechanic should NOT have been based on the corpse's location - it just needs to consume nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allow you place the Siphon or gain the effects of Tether directly. This would clear up a lot of the clunky corpse management that currently exists without abandoning the thematic feel of using corpses to empower your magic.

Yeah, I agree with this tbh. Make the those skills play a little more like Repentence from temps, and balance around that.

Grandesdar

I'm just so sad, even if I try to give some love to it, other classes will push it down, like how I'm usually the only warden most of the times in large groups. Even if there would be another warden, it won't be magDen.
Time to start playing popular builds like petSorc instead of waiting for Zeni for fixes, I guess. There is no way we would see any significant change before the next DLC drops in Q4 2019.

Vercingetorix

Grandesdar wrote: »

I'm just so sad, even if I try to give some love to it, other classes will push it down, like how I'm usually the only warden most of the times in large groups. Even if there would be another warden, it won't be magDen.
Time to start playing popular builds like petSorc instead of waiting for Zeni for fixes, I guess. There is no way we would see any significant change before the next DLC drops in Q4 2019.

Actually the changes a few of us here agree on wouldn't be too difficult to implement as the radial corpse consumption cost effect already exists in the code on some of the other Necro abilities. As for adding an execute or the other stuff I listed, you're right that we may not see those changes right away. In the end, it's important that you play what you want and not worry about the meta's verdict on viability on certain classes. Remember, fun is the objective in gaming - otherwise, it's a chore!

Excelsus

Vercingetorix wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

As soon as I read the necro skills, the entire mechanic seemed cool, but super clunky. My opinion hasn't changed.

It really reads as a super cool class from a different game, imo. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't match the flow/feel of ESO combat, imo.

There are some abilities and passives that remind me of the Necromancer class from Diablo III. However, ZoS' execution of the corpse mechanic should NOT have been based on the corpse's location - it just needs to consume nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allow you place the Siphon or gain the effects of Tether directly. This would clear up a lot of the clunky corpse management that currently exists without abandoning the thematic feel of using corpses to empower your magic.

I do think they were... inspired by Diablo III Necromancer. Similar colors/animations/mechanics and skills like a temp summon mage, a graveyard, scythe, corpse explosion and bone armor. None of which has any basis in elder scrolls history. That may be part of the problem. Necro would've benefitted more from just having the skills lifted from Necro NPCs with a few tweaks.

Vercingetorix

Excelsus wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

As soon as I read the necro skills, the entire mechanic seemed cool, but super clunky. My opinion hasn't changed.

It really reads as a super cool class from a different game, imo. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't match the flow/feel of ESO combat, imo.

There are some abilities and passives that remind me of the Necromancer class from Diablo III. However, ZoS' execution of the corpse mechanic should NOT have been based on the corpse's location - it just needs to consume nearby corpse as an additional cost and then allow you place the Siphon or gain the effects of Tether directly. This would clear up a lot of the clunky corpse management that currently exists without abandoning the thematic feel of using corpses to empower your magic.

I do think they were... inspired by Diablo III Necromancer. Similar colors/animations/mechanics and skills like a temp summon mage, a graveyard, scythe, corpse explosion and bone armor. None of which has any basis in elder scrolls history. That may be part of the problem. Necro would've benefitted more from just having the skills lifted from Necro NPCs with a few tweaks.

The aesthetic is fine, to be fair. I think the main turn-off for most players trying out the Necromancer is trying to handle the infuriating corpse consumption ground targeting for Siphon and Tether, two of the main abilities for the Necro. If corpse consumption was straight forward, learning the class' toolkit and developing a rotation probably wouldn't come off as such a daunting task. I'd wager we'll see a lot of the complaints mentioned in this thread at release by folks who haven't had a chance to even try out the Necro yet.

John_Falstaff

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Grandesdar

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

I don't think we are talking about the same group of people saying "nerf nightblades" and "release a viable class". Even if that was the case, you'd expect Zeni to be big enough to provide resources for both.

wheem_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.

Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).

John_Falstaff

Grandesdar wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

I don't think we are talking about the same group of people saying "nerf nightblades" and "release a viable class". Even if that was the case, you'd expect Zeni to be big enough to provide resources for both.

It's in response to OP simultaneously saying that NBs had their nerfs coming and necros aren't receiving more attention. Well, the more people saying something like that, the more attention drawn to NBs - if OP wanted to accuse someone in NBs having too much attention this patch, then could've started with nerf-callers first.

And I'm not sure about resources. They've admitted that their combat team is pretty small. Which is a shame of course and makes one wonder where our ESO+ money have gone, but that's already another story...

Vercingetorix

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

The critical passive isn't the same thing as an actual execute ability that normally features some sort of burst. The critical passive in both PvE and PvP is lackluster for different reasons:

PvE: Critical buff only sees a marginal increase in damage if you're dealing with DoT ticks, as in lots of individual opportunities for a crit to occur. However, this is largely unnoticeable in smaller execute phases like dungeon bosses - you might see more of it in trials, but even then, unless you always critically strike you're technically relying on RNG to get any performance improvement during the execute phase - it's unreliable at best.

PvP: The execute threshold of 25% HP is very short and often times rare period of time during combat due to the fast nature of combat in Cyrodiil. In that short moment, burst is the only damage that truly matters. DoTs can apply pressure but they aren't normally the final nail in the coffin - it's typically some sort of burst in conjunction with the pressure you've applied. Without the burst, a Necro is hoping on RNG to have his DoT ticks crit frequently enough in that short time span, which is almost certain to fail as that is when the opponent reacts with some sort of countermeasure like a burst heal or aggressive kiting to avoid additional hits.

As you can see, it doesn't matter whether you are in Cyrodiil or not, the Necromancer's Death Knell passive really is situational in nature and often times can fail to even make an impact at all. Sure, you could stack a bunch of Grave Lord abilities on your bar and stack crit chance on your gear, but at what cost to the rest of your build, your sustain? Why should any class have to make such debilitating sacrifices just to make a passive work?

John_Falstaff

wheem_ESO wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.

Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).

Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.

Vercingetorix

John_Falstaff wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.

Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).

Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.

Honestly, the Death Knell passive has much more use in a class like the DK for reasons I explained above to someone else. DoT ticks are the best way to capitalize on a high critical chance, but even then in a PvP environment you need some sort of burst to end the fight otherwise you're at the mercy of RNG crit frequency as well as your opponent being unable to respond somehow.

John_Falstaff

Vercingetorix wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.

Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).

Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.

Honestly, the Death Knell passive has much more use in a class like the DK for reasons I explained above to someone else. DoT ticks are the best way to capitalize on a high critical chance, but even then in a PvP environment you need some sort of burst to end the fight otherwise you're at the mercy of RNG crit frequency as well as your opponent being unable to respond somehow.

I wouldn't complain, really - as stamDK main, would love something like that passive and wouldn't then be complaining about lacking execute.

That said, answering to the above - not sure if I got the reasoning. In PvE, if you hit something squishy, then you don't care how much extra damage you did, and if you actually have an execute phase with almost 100% crit chance, then you'll get your boost. Even if you'll talk averages, then if you're in a trash pull, then the higher execute crit you have, the more mobs (on average) will die from crits in execute - everything evens out. And on bigger bosses, the closer the crit to 100%, the smaller the uncertainty, actually, and the less dependent you are on randomness.

Same argument for PvP. The closer you are to 100% crit chance, the less variation you will see with your crits, the less dependent on randomness you are. If you have 95% crit, and on average get to land, say, two hits to execute opponent, then again, on average, you'll have downed about ten opponents until you will see a non-crit in execute.

wheem_ESO

John_Falstaff wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.

Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).

Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.

Yes, Magicka Necromancers absolutely need improvement to their offensive toolkit, but that still doesn't address the problem of not having an execute. What am I supposed to do when my Ricochet Skull doesn't crit because it gets dodged, but a Stamina Necromancer from the third Battleground team fires off a Spin-to-Win crit while his pre-applied Poison Injection ticks are also simultaneously critting on the same target?

I'd rather they changed the crit passive to something else, and give *all* Magicka builds access to some worthwhile executes. It makes a bigger difference than you might think in Battlegrounds, especially since team score in Deathmatches (which are by far the most common game type now) is 100% based on killing blows.

Temeraire507

Vercingetorix wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.

Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).

Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.

Honestly, the Death Knell passive has much more use in a class like the DK for reasons I explained above to someone else. DoT ticks are the best way to capitalize on a high critical chance, but even then in a PvP environment you need some sort of burst to end the fight otherwise you're at the mercy of RNG crit frequency as well as your opponent being unable to respond somehow.

In PvE you are very likely going to be sitting on 100%+ crit in execute at all times with this passive. A normal trial player runs with at least 65% crit (buffed) and as a necro you are very likely going to to slot enough abilities (2-4 depending on your setup) at least on your front bar to hit that. There is no RNG when every hit is a crit.

Vercingetorix

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Why would necro need class execute, by the way? All necro's damage makes execute in the execute phase - considering that you'll have crit of 100% or close to it. It's a creative way to amplify damage in execute phase without resorting to an actual execute.

As for lack of attention - well, that's what people get for crying 'nerf nightblades' every day. Now that nightblades are nerfed, they complain that devs were busy nerfing nightblades. Go figure. ^^

Because not everyone cares about PvE very much, if at all. Many of us are not looking to inflate DPS numbers during the "execute phase" of a boss fight, but rather want to be able to secure kills in PvP.

Stamina builds get access to 3 executes just for being Stamina, and Stam Necromancers will get a big crit chance increase on not only all of those executes, but also for all 3 of the bleeds that they'll be using. Meanwhile Magicka Necromancer will receive an increased crit chance on a pretty poor offensive toolkit, with no "true" execute at all (especially not one that's both AOE and undodgeable, like all Stamina builds have access to).

Well, I feel that you're answering your own point, no? If mNC has poor offensive toolkit (to be amplified by their execute crit passive), then the solution is to rather improve their offensive toolkit. If necro will get a real execute, then that passive would have to be removed to keep class balanced, and it's a nice, surprisingly (for ZOS) unique passive, wish they have shown such creativity with DKs.

Honestly, the Death Knell passive has much more use in a class like the DK for reasons I explained above to someone else. DoT ticks are the best way to capitalize on a high critical chance, but even then in a PvP environment you need some sort of burst to end the fight otherwise you're at the mercy of RNG crit frequency as well as your opponent being unable to respond somehow.

Same argument for PvP. The closer you are to 100% crit chance, the less variation you will see with your crits, the less dependent on randomness you are. If you have 95% crit, and on average get to land, say, two hits to execute opponent, then again, on average, you'll have downed about ten opponents until you will see a non-crit in execute.

The only problem with PvP though is the issue with crit resistance playing a factor in negating most of the damage inflicted, largely countering any possible effect that passive would have had. The necro is forced to find some sort of burst elsewhere to combat this issue. Also, in both instances stacking your crit chance with your Grave Lord abilities can be detrimental or even counterproductive to what you’re aiming for. Using crits without burst to execute in PvP is likely to backfire more often than not. In PvE, this is obviously less of an issue and you are right that it would be of great benefit there.