Jeezye wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I don't think it's complicated to understand, but I don't like it, at least not as a universal rule. I'd like to be able to invest in penetration and get more heals out of sweeps, for instance. Having it be a preset value somewhat pigeonholes you to push spell damage at the expense of other stats.

I think your solution would work well for some spells, for sure, but I'm not sure it needs to be a blanket rule.

I see your point and agree to some certain extend, but on the flip side you should ask yourself why penetration should buff your healing. Remember your main offensive stats, that is magicka and spell damage still increase the amount healed.

I think as y general rule of thumb you can say, if these skills perform well in PvP atm they are overperforming in PvE - at least its true for inhale and embers. Maybe not for your stereotype dps/ tank role, but very much for solo and overland content (e.g. vMSA)

It's not buffing your healing! It's buffing your damage...and the heal is based on that! I'm being facetious, obviously, but I do think there's an argument for keeping it as something that scales off of damage-done. It also allows for more counterplay that way--If I see someone sweepsing, if I build/play more defensively I reduce their heals, rather than letting heal at the same value they would hitting a glass cannon or potato...

And yes, I agree that there are some that have issues with overperforming in one context or the other. And I don't think your suggestion is bad! It's used already on some skills (I think Sap is worded that way, with a set heal value per target?). I'm 100% on board with these skills getting a balance pass, but I'm not sold on this being the one and only way to balance them. I could be wrong!

Ohh and regarding the tanky player statement, take a light and a heavy magplar for example with equal mag and spelldmg.

Light will do more damage because of crit and penetration, but heavy will have more healing due to multipliers. The healing base value of both is exactly equal.

Some speccing purely in defenses with significantly less mag and spell dmg will not pull the same healing numbers as he lacks the main offensive stats, so I don’t see this being a problem.

Iskiab wrote: »

The cost is high, the damage is low, the heal is small, and it’s a projectile so can be negated entirely by Wardens, defensive stance, or the Sword and Board ultimate... or have it’s damage/healing cut in half by DKs. On top of which people have mitigation in pvp.

I think the main reason people think magblade is so weak is they hold onto dead skills in the toolkit because of pve or how it used to perform. Do yourself a favour, just stop using it. You only have space for 10 abilities, and these skills should definitely not be one of them. There are a dozen better spammables out there.... or something like that, are there 13? However many spammables there are swallow soul is last.

Which is exactly the point of this thread. Asking for a fix to a "dead" skill according to you.

I don't think it's a dead skill btw. As the only siphoning skill on my front bar, it activates siphoning passives which are all strong. I believe normalizing the heal it does would make it a balanced skill without making it the definite BiS spammable for a magblade.

Rianai wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the biggest thing is why on earth would you ever use an ability like swallow soul or funnel health in pvp.

The cost is high, the damage is low, the heal is small, and it’s a projectile so can be negated entirely by Wardens, defensive stance, or the Sword and Board ultimate... or have it’s damage/healing cut in half by DKs. On top of which people have mitigation in pvp.

I think the main reason people think magblade is so weak is they hold onto dead skills in the toolkit because of pve or how it used to perform. Do yourself a favour, just stop using it. You only have space for 10 abilities, and these skills should definitely not be one of them. There are a dozen better spammables out there.... or something like that, are there 13? However many spammables there are swallow soul is last.

There are 4 spammables a magblade can use - Swallow Soul, Concealed Weapon, Force Shock (Morph), Elemental Weapon and aside from the first one, all do only 1 thing - damage. They have (almost) the same cost and deal only marginally more dmg (or force you into melee range in case of CB), which is not worth giving up a heal on a class that already struggles to heal. Even if the heal from Funnel isn't always good in PvP - it is still better than no heal at all. Only for gank builds CW or EW are worth slotting.

idk wrote: »

So you are suggesting your idea would benefit tank builds that cannot do much damage since these skills would still give them strong healing.

Even if that is not what you were trying to say you found the very solid reason Zos would not revisit these skills as you are wanting. Just as a very tanky build should not be doing much damage these same skills because they lack the max stam/mag and WD/SD to power them the related heals should be similarly smaller.

He isn't saying heals should not scale with stam/mag and WD/SD so idk what you are on about again.

I’d argue there are a ton of better options:
- Reach with the staff that boosts it’s damage
- Elemental weapon in melee builds
- Crushing shock (it’s unreflectable)
- Elemental Ring (with the BRP staff)
- Sap essence (melee builds)
- Concealed weapon (in cloak melee builds)

Saying there’s self healing to swallow soul is a little misleading. You’ll end up killing yourself from reflections. If you’re a pure ranged magblade crushing shock and elemental ring are outright better, and use resto abilities on your back bar to heal yourself.

Most people think magblades are the weakest pvp class. Mainly because so many try to use these dead skills that don’t work and haven’t adjusted to the pvp reality.

I like the damaged base healing the way it is now. Just enough in PVP to make you tanky but not enough to make you unkillable but still have high damage.

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What OP is saying is that the skills should ignore buffs and blocking that reduce damage taken or at least have a much more complicated design where the damage is still reduced but the servers calculate what it would have been without the player being smart about reducing their damage.

That would not only be complicated but also add more load to the server since the current design of the game would require that calculation be done server side.

WHAT? No thats not what im saying at all, I just want a seperate fricking hot instance instead of healing scaled off of damage done.

Your Jabs TT would liike like "hit enemy 5 times for X damage and heal for Y damage", with the heal component being a fixed value scaling off of your max stats. How is it so complicated to understand?? It has nothing to do with target you're fighting anymore.

Actually, this is the first time you have said this and you now make more sense.

I would still suggest it should not be the case as it means ineffective builds still get the same healing. Say someone comes in without any penetration and attacks a heavy armor player. Clearly their damage is pretty much wet noodles yet they are still getting huge heals

In the end those there could be unintended issues including it turns those skills more into a heal rather than a damage skill with a healing component since you do not even need to do damage to get the heal. The skill would just need to touch something.

I see your point, but in turn whats so bad at tanky players receiving heal but doing no damage? Isn't that actually desirable and opens up build options?

This is your comment advocating for a tank build that is clearly lacking the damage component would still get a good heal.

Jeezye wrote: »

Ohh and regarding the tanky player statement, take a light and a heavy magplar for example with equal mag and spelldmg.

Light will do more damage because of crit and penetration, but heavy will have more healing due to multipliers. The healing base value of both is exactly equal.

Some speccing purely in defenses with significantly less mag and spell dmg will not pull the same healing numbers as he lacks the main offensive stats, so I don’t see this being a problem.

This is the attempted explanation. Mostly that somehow the a small amount of crit chance and penetration will increase the heal significantly even though it lacks the spell damage and weapon damage because it is a tank build. Further, the HA passive that increases heals received by 8% would be pretty small when the heal is small.

The explanation is mathematically insignificant is my point. They lack significant mag and spell damage which is they their damage is low per your statement so their heals should be low. This is mathematical certainty regardless if the heal is damage based or stat based.

This whole part also conflicts with pretty much with original OP and updated OP.

Dude I dont know where to begin, it literally says in the very first sentance that both builds have equal max stats. Either you must be trolling me by now or just don't ready my stuff carefully. In the last sentance I clarify exactly those full-tank builds will have no benefit from the skill becuase they lack offensive stats. Im done with this.

Iskiab wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the biggest thing is why on earth would you ever use an ability like swallow soul or funnel health in pvp.

The cost is high, the damage is low, the heal is small, and it’s a projectile so can be negated entirely by Wardens, defensive stance, or the Sword and Board ultimate... or have it’s damage/healing cut in half by DKs. On top of which people have mitigation in pvp.

I think the main reason people think magblade is so weak is they hold onto dead skills in the toolkit because of pve or how it used to perform. Do yourself a favour, just stop using it. You only have space for 10 abilities, and these skills should definitely not be one of them. There are a dozen better spammables out there.... or something like that, are there 13? However many spammables there are swallow soul is last.

There are 4 spammables a magblade can use - Swallow Soul, Concealed Weapon, Force Shock (Morph), Elemental Weapon and aside from the first one, all do only 1 thing - damage. They have (almost) the same cost and deal only marginally more dmg (or force you into melee range in case of CB), which is not worth giving up a heal on a class that already struggles to heal. Even if the heal from Funnel isn't always good in PvP - it is still better than no heal at all. Only for gank builds CW or EW are worth slotting.

idk wrote: »

So you are suggesting your idea would benefit tank builds that cannot do much damage since these skills would still give them strong healing.

Even if that is not what you were trying to say you found the very solid reason Zos would not revisit these skills as you are wanting. Just as a very tanky build should not be doing much damage these same skills because they lack the max stam/mag and WD/SD to power them the related heals should be similarly smaller.

He isn't saying heals should not scale with stam/mag and WD/SD so idk what you are on about again.

I’d argue there are a ton of better options:
- Reach with the staff that boosts it’s damage
- Elemental weapon in melee builds
- Crushing shock (it’s unreflectable)
- Elemental Ring (with the BRP staff)
- Sap essence (melee builds)
- Concealed weapon (in cloak melee builds)

Saying there’s self healing to swallow soul is a little misleading. You’ll end up killing yourself from reflections. If you’re a pure ranged magblade crushing shock and elemental ring are outright better, and use resto abilities on your back bar to heal yourself.

Most people think magblades are the weakest pvp class. Mainly because so many try to use these dead skills that don’t work and haven’t adjusted to the pvp reality.

I'd really love to see a magblade solo/smallscale open world (or even in bg) with crushing shock and ele ring. You surely can provide some gameplay examples that show how great that those skills work, right?

Rianai wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the biggest thing is why on earth would you ever use an ability like swallow soul or funnel health in pvp.

The cost is high, the damage is low, the heal is small, and it’s a projectile so can be negated entirely by Wardens, defensive stance, or the Sword and Board ultimate... or have it’s damage/healing cut in half by DKs. On top of which people have mitigation in pvp.

I think the main reason people think magblade is so weak is they hold onto dead skills in the toolkit because of pve or how it used to perform. Do yourself a favour, just stop using it. You only have space for 10 abilities, and these skills should definitely not be one of them. There are a dozen better spammables out there.... or something like that, are there 13? However many spammables there are swallow soul is last.

There are 4 spammables a magblade can use - Swallow Soul, Concealed Weapon, Force Shock (Morph), Elemental Weapon and aside from the first one, all do only 1 thing - damage. They have (almost) the same cost and deal only marginally more dmg (or force you into melee range in case of CB), which is not worth giving up a heal on a class that already struggles to heal. Even if the heal from Funnel isn't always good in PvP - it is still better than no heal at all. Only for gank builds CW or EW are worth slotting.

idk wrote: »

So you are suggesting your idea would benefit tank builds that cannot do much damage since these skills would still give them strong healing.

Even if that is not what you were trying to say you found the very solid reason Zos would not revisit these skills as you are wanting. Just as a very tanky build should not be doing much damage these same skills because they lack the max stam/mag and WD/SD to power them the related heals should be similarly smaller.

He isn't saying heals should not scale with stam/mag and WD/SD so idk what you are on about again.

I’d argue there are a ton of better options:
- Reach with the staff that boosts it’s damage
- Elemental weapon in melee builds
- Crushing shock (it’s unreflectable)
- Elemental Ring (with the BRP staff)
- Sap essence (melee builds)
- Concealed weapon (in cloak melee builds)

Saying there’s self healing to swallow soul is a little misleading. You’ll end up killing yourself from reflections. If you’re a pure ranged magblade crushing shock and elemental ring are outright better, and use resto abilities on your back bar to heal yourself.

Most people think magblades are the weakest pvp class. Mainly because so many try to use these dead skills that don’t work and haven’t adjusted to the pvp reality.

I'd really love to see a magblade solo/smallscale open world (or even in bg) with crushing shock and ele ring. You surely can provide some gameplay examples that show how great that those skills work, right?

Sure, here’s one with me where I got a lot of kills. I’m a healer so predominantly heal.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540046416110813194/563343674264780811/Screenshot_20190404_084454.png

I can link more if you’d like:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540046416110813194/573152707452600330/Screenshot_20190501_102328.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540046416110813194/562861548427804682/Screenshot_20190403_004946.png

Do those links work? Only damage abilities I use are elemental ring, blockade and impale. Typically when I do see a magblade, which isn’t often, I’ll have just as much damage and kills as them and I’m usually 1:2 damage to healing. I think I can confidently say most magblades spec poorly which is why they feel the class is so bad, the meta is poor.

Iskiab wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think the biggest thing is why on earth would you ever use an ability like swallow soul or funnel health in pvp.

The cost is high, the damage is low, the heal is small, and it’s a projectile so can be negated entirely by Wardens, defensive stance, or the Sword and Board ultimate... or have it’s damage/healing cut in half by DKs. On top of which people have mitigation in pvp.

I think the main reason people think magblade is so weak is they hold onto dead skills in the toolkit because of pve or how it used to perform. Do yourself a favour, just stop using it. You only have space for 10 abilities, and these skills should definitely not be one of them. There are a dozen better spammables out there.... or something like that, are there 13? However many spammables there are swallow soul is last.

There are 4 spammables a magblade can use - Swallow Soul, Concealed Weapon, Force Shock (Morph), Elemental Weapon and aside from the first one, all do only 1 thing - damage. They have (almost) the same cost and deal only marginally more dmg (or force you into melee range in case of CB), which is not worth giving up a heal on a class that already struggles to heal. Even if the heal from Funnel isn't always good in PvP - it is still better than no heal at all. Only for gank builds CW or EW are worth slotting.

idk wrote: »

So you are suggesting your idea would benefit tank builds that cannot do much damage since these skills would still give them strong healing.

Even if that is not what you were trying to say you found the very solid reason Zos would not revisit these skills as you are wanting. Just as a very tanky build should not be doing much damage these same skills because they lack the max stam/mag and WD/SD to power them the related heals should be similarly smaller.

He isn't saying heals should not scale with stam/mag and WD/SD so idk what you are on about again.

I’d argue there are a ton of better options:
- Reach with the staff that boosts it’s damage
- Elemental weapon in melee builds
- Crushing shock (it’s unreflectable)
- Elemental Ring (with the BRP staff)
- Sap essence (melee builds)
- Concealed weapon (in cloak melee builds)

Saying there’s self healing to swallow soul is a little misleading. You’ll end up killing yourself from reflections. If you’re a pure ranged magblade crushing shock and elemental ring are outright better, and use resto abilities on your back bar to heal yourself.

Most people think magblades are the weakest pvp class. Mainly because so many try to use these dead skills that don’t work and haven’t adjusted to the pvp reality.

I'd really love to see a magblade solo/smallscale open world (or even in bg) with crushing shock and ele ring. You surely can provide some gameplay examples that show how great that those skills work, right?

Sure, here’s one with me where I got a lot of kills. I’m a healer so predominantly heal.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540046416110813194/563343674264780811/Screenshot_20190404_084454.png

I can link more if you’d like:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540046416110813194/573152707452600330/Screenshot_20190501_102328.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/540046416110813194/562861548427804682/Screenshot_20190403_004946.png

Do those links work? Only damage abilities I use are elemental ring, blockade and impale. Typically when I do see a magblade, which isn’t often, I’ll have just as much damage and kills as them and I’m usually 1:2 damage to healing. I think I can confidently say most magblades spec poorly which is why they feel the class is so bad, the meta is poor.

I was more looking for gameplay rather than meaningless bg stats.

So it's "buff typical ep" thread.
Jokes aside, it would be a buff to those zerglingz who just chase you down with 15 tanks with no damage.
Imagine fire a whip not with 10000, but for 700 and still heal for 4000 as you said.
Nah

idk wrote: »

So you are suggesting your idea would benefit tank builds that cannot do much damage since these skills would still give them strong healing.

I think what the OP is suggesting is to simply remove the heal based off of damage done mechanic entirely in favor of skills (that already exist) that do damage based off of max stats and provide a corresponding heal also based off of max stats, contingent on whether or not the damage component of the skill successfully lands.

A good comparison would be strife and dk lash. Where strife's heal is dependent on the damage it does, a dk's lash will heal for a consistent amount each and every time the damage component lands, even if battling enemies with higher or lower resistances. This consistent heal, however, is still dependent on the caster's max stats. So if a tank build cannot do much damage (inherent in its lack of max offensive stats), then the attached heal would not heal for much either because it too relies on the same max stat scaling their damage is based off of. The proposed change wouldn't benefit tank builds.

All it would do is standardize (which ZOS has suddenly become a fan of given the recent skill audits and their respective dev notes) the heal-on-damage skills across all skill lines. As the OP has stated in the title of the thread, the change would be nothing more than a consistency pass.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Ironically, the new classes don't have this mechanic implemented to their skills anymore.

I stopped reading at this error (Necromancer Scythe).

only that scythe doesn't heal on damage done but scales with with max stats - exactly what this consitency pass is about. Accordingly, this is no error.