Consitency pass on damage based healing

Jeezye

With this patch being advertised to increase consitency over all classes active abilities, I think one major pain point between balance of PvE and PvP has been left out: the discrepenacies of damage based healing.

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

Here's a (probably not completed) list of damage abilities with damage based healing:

• inhale
• embers
• jabs
• radiant glory
• (new) grim focus
• swallow soul
• werewolf claws

Ironically, the new classes don't have this mechanic implemented to their skills anymore.

To actually balance those skills which do damage and heal you at the same time, the healing effect needs to be untied from the actual damage done and become a statonairy value.
I'll use DK's power lash as a referance, which will heal you for a fixed amount no matter how high the actual damage is done.

An exemplary change for swallow soul:

Live:
Do 10.000 magic damage and heal for 40% of the damage done every 2 seconds for 8 seconds.

After consitency pass:
Do 10.000 magic damage and heal for 4.000 every 2 seconds for 8 seconds.

Obviously, the healing component will scale the same way the damage component does with your main stats (stam/mag, weapon/spell damage). Furthermore, the healing will be cut by battle spirit like any other healing is.

This closes the insane gap between PvE and PvP and provides a reliable consitency between all classes and builds - and its not hard to implement!

Edited for typos
Added WW claws
Added example for clarification

Edziu

I think main problem is healing reduced 2x witht this by battlespirit

1st time it is just reduced by overall reduced damage done by 50%

then when we have reduced damage done by that huge amount then healing done in those skills is additionally reeduced by additional 50% by battlespirit so in practise:

for example if an damage skill is healing you for 50% of damage done by this in theory then in practice with battle spirit this skill is healing you by only 25% of damage done so it is really lower

when everything normal is cutted single time by 50% with battle spirit many heals like those are cutted twice for this 50% which is problem how some skills are jsut unreliable as you said

we can add also to this old dragonblood when normally this was healing you for only for 33% of your lost max health it was also cutted by half and on ppv it was healing you for only 16.5% of lost max health so not so much at all

Jeezye

Edziu wrote: »

I think main problem is healing reduced 2x witht this by battlespirit

1st time it is just reduced by overall reduced damage done by 50%

then when we have reduced damage done by that huge amount then healing done in those skills is additionally reeduced by additional 50% by battlespirit so in practise:

for example if an damage skill is healing you for 50% of damage done by this in theory then in practice with battle spirit this skill is healing you by only 25% of damage done so it is really lower

when everything normal is cutted single time by 50% with battle spirit many heals like those are cutted twice for this 50% which is problem how some skills are jsut unreliable as you said

we can add also to this old dragonblood when normally this was healing you for only for 33% of your lost max health it was also cutted by half and on ppv it was healing you for only 16.5% of lost max health so not so much at all

I'm not too sure about this one as I rember they chaged battlespirit to not double dip into these damage based healing anymore.

Jeezye

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

Firstmep

Should also add that the heal from these skills cannot crit, while the damage done by them does get reduced by impen.

Battle spirit doesnt reduce the healing a second time, but with how tanky people build these days, these skills have fallen greatly in effectiveness.

And yeah looking at wardens living trellis or lotus, vs something like swallow soul or punturing sweeps, the difference in healing between PVE and PVP is far too big.

Sadly i dont expect them to change this system anytime soon

Iskiab

It’s an easy change. This should have been addressed in 5.0.

brandonv516

Needs to be addressed.

Jeezye

Firstmep wrote: »

Should also add that the heal from these skills cannot crit, while the damage done by them does get reduced by impen.

Battle spirit doesnt reduce the healing a second time, but with how tanky people build these days, these skills have fallen greatly in effectiveness.

And yeah looking at wardens living trellis or lotus, vs something like swallow soul or punturing sweeps, the difference in healing between PVE and PVP is far too big.

Sadly i dont expect them to change this system anytime soon

Are you sure they can’t crit? I’m pretty sure my swallow soul heals also crit the last time I checked my combat metrics. Either way, that doesn’t change a lot if my opponent already mitigates >50% of the damage in the first place...

Firstmep

It shouldnt, i know puncturing sweep heals cant.

idk

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

Jabbs_Giggity

Templar sweeps cannot crit heal anymore. Just saying.

Jeezye

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

Iskiab

Jeezye wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Should also add that the heal from these skills cannot crit, while the damage done by them does get reduced by impen.

Battle spirit doesnt reduce the healing a second time, but with how tanky people build these days, these skills have fallen greatly in effectiveness.

And yeah looking at wardens living trellis or lotus, vs something like swallow soul or punturing sweeps, the difference in healing between PVE and PVP is far too big.

Sadly i dont expect them to change this system anytime soon

Are you sure they can’t crit? I’m pretty sure my swallow soul heals also crit the last time I checked my combat metrics. Either way, that doesn’t change a lot if my opponent already mitigates >50% of the damage in the first place...

Swallow soul can crit and the healing value will be based on the crit for the entire duration, it works a little differently then other skills.

Onefrkncrzypope

Doesn't stone fist heal scale off the target's stats too? Saw it in another thread. Too lazy to test.

Wuuffyy

Jeezye wrote: »

With this patch being advertised to increase consitency over all classes active abilities, I think one major pain point between balance of PvE and PvP has been left out: the discrepenacies of damage based healing.

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

Here's a (probably not completed) list of damage abilities with damage based healing:

• inhale
• embers
• jabs
• radiant glory
• (new) grim focus
• swallow soul

Ironically, the new classes don't have this mechanic implemented to their skills anymore.

To actually balance those skills which do damage and heal you at the same time, the healing effect needs to be untied from the actual damage done and become a statonairy value.
I'll use DK's power lash as a referance, which will heal you for a fixed amount no matter how high the actual damage is done. This closes the insane gap between PvE and PvP and provides a reliable consitency between all classes and builds - and its not hard to implement!

Edited for typos

You forgot WW claws

idk

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

First, the tooltips do see accurate in describing the related healing and yes it is based on actual damage.

Further, you are inaccurate that in PvP it results in very tiny healing since it is still based on the same % the tooltip reads.
'
The problem with your argument is you are not being true to the situation. You are describing a skewed story to fit your suggested issue. Not everyone in PvP runs high mitigation builds. Not even those who regularly PvP. If so it would be hard to kill them and somehow I manage to kill players just fine and get killed myself.

So yes, you are correct some run high mitigation builds but you are wrong that is completely the case. If Zos tuned the damage based healing to the high mitigation builds then it would be stupidly OP healing most of the time.

Edit: considering the little interest this has gotten it would seem very little agree with the idea in principle.

Jeezye

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

First, the tooltips do see accurate in describing the related healing and yes it is based on actual damage.

Further, you are inaccurate that in PvP it results in very tiny healing since it is still based on the same % the tooltip reads.
'
The problem with your argument is you are not being true to the situation. You are describing a skewed story to fit your suggested issue. Not everyone in PvP runs high mitigation builds. Not even those who regularly PvP. If so it would be hard to kill them and somehow I manage to kill players just fine and get killed myself.

So yes, you are correct some run high mitigation builds but you are wrong that is completely the case. If Zos tuned the damage based healing to the high mitigation builds then it would be stupidly OP healing most of the time.

Edit: considering the little interest this has gotten it would seem very little agree with the idea in principle.

I don’t really get what you are trying to say. Regarding the little interests, people on the forums tend to jump on brainless threads and spam worthless comments instead of actually putting effort into threads with substance. See the incap thread for referance.

Regarding the PvP situation, of course you will be able to encounter snipers without any of the defensive mechanics mentioned above, but against these players you don’t need high healing anyways.

The problem lies in the reliability of said skills. If you run a damage oriented build and use these skills, you should be rewarded with the appropriate healing these skills were designed for. I don’t see how this is even an argument, probably you don’t play any class that relies on these skills for healing because otherwise you’d know how bad their healing is.

darkblue5

Didn't someone test new Grim Focus heal and find that it was getting double cut by Battle Spirit? Despite the fact that damage based heals aren't supposed to be double cut?

(Though I swear damage based heals often have been getting double cut over the years. I suppose due to the messy legacy code. And the painfulness of keeping the skills working properly when changing things due to that messy coding.)

Edit: Typo

idk

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

First, the tooltips do see accurate in describing the related healing and yes it is based on actual damage.

Further, you are inaccurate that in PvP it results in very tiny healing since it is still based on the same % the tooltip reads.
'
The problem with your argument is you are not being true to the situation. You are describing a skewed story to fit your suggested issue. Not everyone in PvP runs high mitigation builds. Not even those who regularly PvP. If so it would be hard to kill them and somehow I manage to kill players just fine and get killed myself.

So yes, you are correct some run high mitigation builds but you are wrong that is completely the case. If Zos tuned the damage based healing to the high mitigation builds then it would be stupidly OP healing most of the time.

Edit: considering the little interest this has gotten it would seem very little agree with the idea in principle.

I don’t really get what you are trying to say. Regarding the little interests, people on the forums tend to jump on brainless threads and spam worthless comments instead of actually putting effort into threads with substance. See the incap thread for referance.

The incap thread is irrelevant, If people thought this was a worthy subject and idea they would be posting here, and they are not.

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

First, the tooltips do see accurate in describing the related healing and yes it is based on actual damage.

Further, you are inaccurate that in PvP it results in very tiny healing since it is still based on the same % the tooltip reads.
'
The problem with your argument is you are not being true to the situation. You are describing a skewed story to fit your suggested issue. Not everyone in PvP runs high mitigation builds. Not even those who regularly PvP. If so it would be hard to kill them and somehow I manage to kill players just fine and get killed myself.

So yes, you are correct some run high mitigation builds but you are wrong that is completely the case. If Zos tuned the damage based healing to the high mitigation builds then it would be stupidly OP healing most of the time.

Edit: considering the little interest this has gotten it would seem very little agree with the idea in principle.

Regarding the PvP situation, of course you will be able to encounter snipers without any of the defensive mechanics mentioned above, but against these players you don’t need high healing anyways.

Again, you are very wrong. I do not think you have much PvP experience if you think everyone uses tank builds except snipers and that is where the problem with your argument. It is based on a false premise.

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

First, the tooltips do see accurate in describing the related healing and yes it is based on actual damage.

Further, you are inaccurate that in PvP it results in very tiny healing since it is still based on the same % the tooltip reads.
'
The problem with your argument is you are not being true to the situation. You are describing a skewed story to fit your suggested issue. Not everyone in PvP runs high mitigation builds. Not even those who regularly PvP. If so it would be hard to kill them and somehow I manage to kill players just fine and get killed myself.

So yes, you are correct some run high mitigation builds but you are wrong that is completely the case. If Zos tuned the damage based healing to the high mitigation builds then it would be stupidly OP healing most of the time.

Edit: considering the little interest this has gotten it would seem very little agree with the idea in principle.

The problem lies in the reliability of said skills. If you run a damage oriented build and use these skills, you should be rewarded with the appropriate healing these skills were designed for. I don’t see how this is even an argument, probably you don’t play any class that relies on these skills for healing because otherwise you’d know how bad their healing is.

No, the skill performs reliably every time. It does what it says it should do. If you are having trouble damaging some player because of their resistance the smart thing to do is to run more penetration.

Further, relying on Ad Hominem as you have when you chose to attack me in the sentence I bolded is just creating a straw man argument because you have not been able to address the points I have made. I suggest keeping discussion above board and not stoop to trying to degrade the person.

BTW, I play all classes and enjoy the variety. Magplar, Mag NB, Mag Sorc and Stamplar are my fav with the mag NB probably being the one I have spent the most time on the past couple of years. So your assumption is very much incorrect.

Jeezye

idk wrote: »

BTW, I play all classes and enjoy the variety. Magplar, Mag NB, Mag Sorc and Stamplar are my fav with the mag NB probably being the one I have spent the most time on the past couple of years. So your assumption is very much incorrect.

Great so we should be on a very common level. I've played 5 years of exclusive eso's PvP content with almost every class and spec (only missing magsorc and stamblade), with my main being magblade after I swichted from dk.

idk wrote: »

If you are having trouble damaging some player because of their resistance the smart thing to do is to run more penetration.

It is not the raw resistance that is causing unreliable heals, it's the differnt defensive mechanics that really hurt these skills. Protection, evasion, blocking, all pretty much deny you healing whilst skills like power lash or scythe can still be used against high mitigation targets for reliable healing.

As you main magblade, I can hardly imagine you're happy with your swallow soul healing if you actually check your CMX and realize it heals for even less than leeching strikes passively does.

Rianai

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

First, the tooltips do see accurate in describing the related healing and yes it is based on actual damage.

Further, you are inaccurate that in PvP it results in very tiny healing since it is still based on the same % the tooltip reads.
'
The problem with your argument is you are not being true to the situation. You are describing a skewed story to fit your suggested issue. Not everyone in PvP runs high mitigation builds. Not even those who regularly PvP. If so it would be hard to kill them and somehow I manage to kill players just fine and get killed myself.

So yes, you are correct some run high mitigation builds but you are wrong that is completely the case. If Zos tuned the damage based healing to the high mitigation builds then it would be stupidly OP healing most of the time.

Edit: considering the little interest this has gotten it would seem very little agree with the idea in principle.

The point is that the healing of dmg based heals differs greatly - between PvE and PvP but also within PvP. Which makes them much harder to balance compared to non dmg based heals that don't suffer from nearly as much variation. And his suggestion was not to balance them arround high mitigation - because that would indeed be op in other situations (which is exactly his point) but to untie the healing value from the dmg value.
And it does not sound like a stupid idea to me.

Jeezye

darkblue5 wrote: »

Didn't someone test new Grim Focus heal and find that it was getting double cut by Battle Spirit? Despite the fact that damage based heals aren't supposed to be double cut?

(Though I swear damage based heals often have been getting double cut over the years. I suppose due to the messy legacy code. And the painfulness of keeping the skills working properly when changing things due to that messy coding.)

Edit: Typo

IDK, but I've done excessive testing with my new brawlerish magblade build too, and while I was able to hit the 10k AW combos, the resutling heaing never exceeded more than 4k. So yeah, its super trash, I mean nice to have, but just completly missplaced on the ability and should've never been introduced here. Off topic though

Vapirko

I would have to disagree, especially making a blanket statement like this.

In terms of Embers I think that it is ok, in fact the heal from that is quite strong at the end and I do not think it needs a buff. Yes I play a Mag DK CP and no CP. It remains to be seen how much of an effect the Wing change has, but on live IMO Mag DKs are quite strong in a variety of situations when played correctly. Moving on to Inhale, yes this is a small heal but it can be very useful and sizable when used properly, which means hitting multiple opponents. Though healing on a Mag DK can take some getting used to, the combo of embers, coag blood (which is getting a huge buff) and also inhale is enough to keep you alive. Again lets see what happens with the wings nerf but also the coag blood buff.

Jabs. Well again here I think the heal is quite good. The issue in greater detail would have to do with really heavy nerfs to Templar healing in the past and whether those are still needed in this day and age. Getting a bigger heal from jabs wouldn't really be that advantageous to Magplars since the have all the burst healing they need in BoL. A decent HoT of some sort could be more beneficial, something allowing them to transition from defense to offense a bit more easily. The jabs heal also rewards more for an offensive build which I think is a pretty good tradeoff. Radiant Glory is the same kind of idea. This can actually heal for quite a bit, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Swallow soul probably didnt need any nerfs. Magblade healing as a whole was nerfed needlessly. So ill mostly agree with you here.

Grim focus is fine for now is my guess, though I haven't played NB for a while. Stamina NBs really don't need more healing as they have access to all the same heals as other classes yet they still get a 33% of damage heal from this. Magblades get 50% of damage heal from it which is quite a lot since that ability can hit for a LOT of damage. Plus you're also gaining mitigation from procing it. Im not sure how good this will be in practice, but my guess is that skilled NBs will use it to good effect and that those values are pretty good at this time. Maglades however may still require quite a bit of help aside from this skill.

From my experience Embers and Inhale are extremely reliable when used properly. Jabs heal can be a bit finicky but this is due to the unreliability of jabs as a damage skill since the two are related. Otherwise the heal is quite useful when the skill isn't lagging and you can hit people properly. How the grim focus heal performs in terms of reliability on live remains to be seen.

darkblue5

Jeezye wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Didn't someone test new Grim Focus heal and find that it was getting double cut by Battle Spirit? Despite the fact that damage based heals aren't supposed to be double cut?

(Though I swear damage based heals often have been getting double cut over the years. I suppose due to the messy legacy code. And the painfulness of keeping the skills working properly when changing things due to that messy coding.)

Edit: Typo

IDK, but I've done excessive testing with my new brawlerish magblade build too, and while I was able to hit the 10k AW combos, the resutling heaing never exceeded more than 4k. So yeah, its super trash, I mean nice to have, but just completly missplaced on the ability and should've never been introduced here. Off topic though

Pointing out that the heal in PvP is truthfully pretty marginal in the best of circumstances is valuable. Also those numbers do seem off if the heal is 50% of the damage dealt while not being reduced by Battle Spirit. Maybe it is getting double cut and sometimes criting? This is originally about a consistency pass on these skills and a new one acting off is a sign in favor off that pass.

(The heal is also my least favorite part of new Grim Focus which I really like overall. I kinda feels like it should have been removed when the mitigation was added in v5.0.2. While the devs' explanation made sense without the added mitigation it feels like that self healing budget should probably be moved to another skill if possible in a way that prevents PVE dps from benefiting as much. That stationary value idea would potentially help accomplish that.)

Jeezye

Vapirko wrote: »

I would have to disagree, especially making a blanket statement like this.

In terms of Embers I think that it is ok, in fact the heal from that is quite strong at the end and I do not think it needs a buff. Yes I play a Mag DK CP and no CP. It remains to be seen how much of an effect the Wing change has, but on live IMO Mag DKs are quite strong in a variety of situations when played correctly. Moving on to Inhale, yes this is a small heal but it can be very useful and sizable when used properly, which means hitting multiple opponents. Though healing on a Mag DK can take some getting used to, the combo of embers, coag blood (which is getting a huge buff) and also inhale is enough to keep you alive. Again lets see what happens with the wings nerf but also the coag blood buff.

Jabs. Well again here I think the heal is quite good. The issue in greater detail would have to do with really heavy nerfs to Templar healing in the past and whether those are still needed in this day and age. Getting a bigger heal from jabs wouldn't really be that advantageous to Magplars since the have all the burst healing they need in BoL. A decent HoT of some sort could be more beneficial, something allowing them to transition from defense to offense a bit more easily. The jabs heal also rewards more for an offensive build which I think is a pretty good tradeoff. Radiant Glory is the same kind of idea. This can actually heal for quite a bit, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Swallow soul probably didnt need any nerfs. Magblade healing as a whole was nerfed needlessly. So ill mostly agree with you here.

Grim focus is fine for now is my guess, though I haven't played NB for a while. Stamina NBs really don't need more healing as they have access to all the same heals as other classes yet they still get a 33% of damage heal from this. Magblades get 50% of damage heal from it which is quite a lot since that ability can hit for a LOT of damage. Plus you're also gaining mitigation from procing it. Im not sure how good this will be in practice, but my guess is that skilled NBs will use it to good effect and that those values are pretty good at this time. Maglades however may still require quite a bit of help aside from this skill.

From my experience Embers and Inhale are extremely reliable when used properly. Jabs heal can be a bit finicky but this is due to the unreliability of jabs as a damage skill since the two are related. Otherwise the heal is quite useful when the skill isn't lagging and you can hit people properly. How the grim focus heal performs in terms of reliability on live remains to be seen.

I think you missunderstood what I'm heading for. By no means is this a nerf thread, just a suggestion to consitency and reliability.

As for DKs, I agree embers heal is actually quite strong, but this is due to the subject that its tied to a dot that bypasses blocking and dodging and therefore naturally has higher reliability. While it doesnt need a static heal component, it still would increase its reliability. Inhale is indeed strong as is atm (PvP wise), but in PvE it is ALWAYS a guaranteed back to 100% heal due to the high damage (though is barely used because it doesnt fit into the stereotype rolls). Applying a steady heal per target hit like sap would bring it more in line as well.

Jabs healing is a great example being good against multiple targets with low mitigation, but bad against few high mitigation targets. I think every magplar can agree it'd be great to have more effectiveness against the latter.

Skip magblade for obvious reasons.

Jeezye

darkblue5 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Didn't someone test new Grim Focus heal and find that it was getting double cut by Battle Spirit? Despite the fact that damage based heals aren't supposed to be double cut?

(Though I swear damage based heals often have been getting double cut over the years. I suppose due to the messy legacy code. And the painfulness of keeping the skills working properly when changing things due to that messy coding.)

Edit: Typo

IDK, but I've done excessive testing with my new brawlerish magblade build too, and while I was able to hit the 10k AW combos, the resutling heaing never exceeded more than 4k. So yeah, its super trash, I mean nice to have, but just completly missplaced on the ability and should've never been introduced here. Off topic though

Pointing out that the heal in PvP is truthfully pretty marginal in the best of circumstances is valuable. Also those numbers do seem off if the heal is 50% of the damage dealt while not being reduced by Battle Spirit. Maybe it is getting double cut and sometimes criting? This is originally about a consistency pass on these skills and a new one acting off is a sign in favor off that pass.

(The heal is also my least favorite part of new Grim Focus which I really like overall. I kinda feels like it should have been removed when the mitigation was added in v5.0.2. While the devs' explanation made sense without the added mitigation it feels like that self healing budget should probably be moved to another skill if possible in a way that prevents PVE dps from benefiting as much. That stationary value idea would potentially help accomplish that.)

I can't tell you how the calculation is conducted behind the curtain, but the cmx results speek for themselves. Don't quote me on the exact numbers though, as those were serious duels where I might have been defiled or had heal absorption on me.

idk

Rianai wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Skills like swallow soul, jabs and embers offer absolutly ridicoulus healing amounts in PvE content due to the high damage multipliers and crits in PvE environment. On the flipside, high target mitigation and battle spirit completly cramper those damage based healing effects down in PvP environment and make them extremely unreliable.

This part makes no sense why it is even in here since it is just saying Battle Spirit is doing what is intended and some players build for high damage mitigation. This says nothing about consistency across classes. It really has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

I think I know what you are trying to say but it is not coming out very well and I will not try to put words into your mouth.

I was kind of lazy to describe the PvP side of view, but my original statement actually reflects exactly what the core of the problem is. The healing accessible through said skills is extremely dependant on the actual damage you do (not the tooltip!).

This damage is extremely high in PvE since bosses have a fixed amount of mitigation that is always bypassed, and the actual damage done is greatly increased through raid buffs like berserk, force and slayer.

On the flipside in PvP, players run a variety of defensive mechanics, from blocking and dodeging over protection and evasion buffs to debuffs like maim. All these mechanics are obviously working as intended, but they result in very tiny healing amounts, while similar abilities with fixed healing values will also do no damage BUT actually provide you with the heal you need.

There's absolutly no reason this damage-scaling mechanic makes sense anymore - its outdated and one of the main imbalance problems between PvE and PvP.

First, the tooltips do see accurate in describing the related healing and yes it is based on actual damage.

Further, you are inaccurate that in PvP it results in very tiny healing since it is still based on the same % the tooltip reads.
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The problem with your argument is you are not being true to the situation. You are describing a skewed story to fit your suggested issue. Not everyone in PvP runs high mitigation builds. Not even those who regularly PvP. If so it would be hard to kill them and somehow I manage to kill players just fine and get killed myself.

So yes, you are correct some run high mitigation builds but you are wrong that is completely the case. If Zos tuned the damage based healing to the high mitigation builds then it would be stupidly OP healing most of the time.

Edit: considering the little interest this has gotten it would seem very little agree with the idea in principle.

The point is that the healing of dmg based heals differs greatly - between PvE and PvP but also within PvP. Which makes them much harder to balance compared to non dmg based heals that don't suffer from nearly as much variation. And his suggestion was not to balance them arround high mitigation - because that would indeed be op in other situations (which is exactly his point) but to untie the healing value from the dmg value.
And it does not sound like a stupid idea to me.

The difference is not that it differs greatly between PvP and PvE as the skill performs to the tooltip explanation in both cases. Since Zos has explicitly said they do not want skills performing differently in PvE than PvP they are extremely unlikely to make change to this skill only for PvP. To increase the heal across the board would be make it ludicrously OP on the healing side, even in most cases of PvP.

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

If you are having trouble damaging some player because of their resistance the smart thing to do is to run more penetration.

It is not the raw resistance that is causing unreliable heals, it's the differnt defensive mechanics that really hurt these skills. Protection, evasion, blocking, all pretty much deny you healing whilst skills like power lash or scythe can still be used against high mitigation targets for reliable healing.

As you main magblade, I can hardly imagine you're happy with your swallow soul healing if you actually check your CMX and realize it heals for even less than leeching strikes passively does.

What OP is saying is that the skills should ignore buffs and blocking that reduce damage taken or at least have a much more complicated design where the damage is still reduced but the servers calculate what it would have been without the player being smart about reducing their damage.

That would not only be complicated but also add more load to the server since the current design of the game would require that calculation be done server side.

Jeezye

idk wrote: »

What OP is saying is that the skills should ignore buffs and blocking that reduce damage taken or at least have a much more complicated design where the damage is still reduced but the servers calculate what it would have been without the player being smart about reducing their damage.

That would not only be complicated but also add more load to the server since the current design of the game would require that calculation be done server side.

WHAT? No thats not what im saying at all, I just want a seperate fricking hot instance instead of healing scaled off of damage done.

Your Jabs TT would liike like "hit enemy 5 times for X damage and heal for Y damage", with the heal component being a fixed value scaling off of your max stats. How is it so complicated to understand?? It has nothing to do with target you're fighting anymore.

DeadlyRecluse

Vapirko wrote: »

I would have to disagree, especially making a blanket statement like this.

My thoughts as well.

Some healing-while-damaging skills need adjustment, imo. And their interaction with crit needs a closer look in some cases. My thoughts:

1. Embers is strong as hell if you let it tick out rather than recasting. Especially in large-scale fights, having it on multiple targets...unreliable but strong. I think that one is good as-is.
2. Inhale is great if you build for it, and is consistent.
3. Sap is a shadow of it's former self, I don't recall why. I'd like to see it buffed, but I'd like to see saptank in general buffed
4. Swallow soul is odd. It can be a pretty strong hot, but it's not a great spammable anymore so I'm not seeing it on as many builds as it used to be. IDK, I think it needs an identity adjustment and clear purpose.
5. Radiant glory...does anyone slot this morph? I honestly don't know if the healing is any good on it, as I'm generally not casting an execute if I'm at low health. The templar execute needs to do damage on-cast rather than after one tick anyway, but this does seem like a good candidate for OP's model .
6. Grim Focus having a heal is clunky, inconsistent, and trash. If it had a static heal rather than a heal-based-on damage it would be slightly more consistent, but IDK if it would make anyone excited about the weird changes here.

Jeezye wrote: »

Your Jabs TT would liike like "hit enemy 5 times for X damage and heal for Y damage", with the heal component being a fixed value scaling off of your max stats. How is it so complicated to understand?? It has nothing to do with target you're fighting anymore.

I don't think it's complicated to understand, but I don't like it, at least not as a universal rule. I'd like to be able to invest in penetration and get more heals out of sweeps, for instance. Having it be a preset value somewhat pigeonholes you to push spell damage at the expense of other stats.

I think your solution would work well for some spells, for sure, but I'm not sure it needs to be a blanket rule.

idk

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What OP is saying is that the skills should ignore buffs and blocking that reduce damage taken or at least have a much more complicated design where the damage is still reduced but the servers calculate what it would have been without the player being smart about reducing their damage.

That would not only be complicated but also add more load to the server since the current design of the game would require that calculation be done server side.

WHAT? No thats not what im saying at all, I just want a seperate fricking hot instance instead of healing scaled off of damage done.

Your Jabs TT would liike like "hit enemy 5 times for X damage and heal for Y damage", with the heal component being a fixed value scaling off of your max stats. How is it so complicated to understand?? It has nothing to do with target you're fighting anymore.

Actually, this is the first time you have said this and you now make more sense.

I would still suggest it should not be the case as it means ineffective builds still get the same healing. Say someone comes in without any penetration and attacks a heavy armor player. Clearly their damage is pretty much wet noodles yet they are still getting huge heals

In the end those there could be unintended issues including it turns those skills more into a heal rather than a damage skill with a healing component since you do not even need to do damage to get the heal. The skill would just need to touch something.

Jeezye

idk wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What OP is saying is that the skills should ignore buffs and blocking that reduce damage taken or at least have a much more complicated design where the damage is still reduced but the servers calculate what it would have been without the player being smart about reducing their damage.

That would not only be complicated but also add more load to the server since the current design of the game would require that calculation be done server side.

WHAT? No thats not what im saying at all, I just want a seperate fricking hot instance instead of healing scaled off of damage done.

Your Jabs TT would liike like "hit enemy 5 times for X damage and heal for Y damage", with the heal component being a fixed value scaling off of your max stats. How is it so complicated to understand?? It has nothing to do with target you're fighting anymore.

Actually, this is the first time you have said this and you now make more sense.

I would still suggest it should not be the case as it means ineffective builds still get the same healing. Say someone comes in without any penetration and attacks a heavy armor player. Clearly their damage is pretty much wet noodles yet they are still getting huge heals

In the end those there could be unintended issues including it turns those skills more into a heal rather than a damage skill with a healing component since you do not even need to do damage to get the heal. The skill would just need to touch something.

I'm sorry if I delivered confusion with my working, I'll adjust the op. I see your point, but in turn whats so bad at tanky players receiving heal but doing no damage? Isn't that actually desirable and opens up build options? I see your point this can become an issue if the healing amounts arent implemented thoughfully, but from an ad hoc PoV I would can't really see a downside.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I don't think it's complicated to understand, but I don't like it, at least not as a universal rule. I'd like to be able to invest in penetration and get more heals out of sweeps, for instance. Having it be a preset value somewhat pigeonholes you to push spell damage at the expense of other stats.

I think your solution would work well for some spells, for sure, but I'm not sure it needs to be a blanket rule.

I see your point and agree to some certain extend, but on the flip side you should ask yourself why penetration should buff your healing. Remember your main offensive stats, that is magicka and spell damage still increase the amount healed.

I think as y general rule of thumb you can say, if these skills perform well in PvP atm they are overperforming in PvE - at least its true for inhale and embers. Maybe not for your stereotype dps/ tank role, but very much for solo and overland content (e.g. vMSA)