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I think I've finally figured out why all these "makes no sense" changes keep happening EVERY PATCH
Jabassa
✭✭✭
It's the leaderboards guys, plain and simple. Now before you jump the gun and tell me I'm an idiot, let me break this down.
All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, otherwise the content that the devs work on so painstakingly would become meaninglessly easy. These META players are constantly pushing that envelope until they figure out how to break through. This creates a problem for the class reps/devs. Once that threshold is broken, they have to scramble to correct it before it becomes widespread knowledge and everyone starts breezing through the content. When this happens, the changes more often than not make no sense to just about everyone else who couldn't care less about a trial score (a staggeringly high percentage of the player base).
The other aspect to this problem is the toxicity that it creates in a game that IS SOLD ON AND DESIGNED TO ALLOW YOU THE FREEDOM TO PLAY AS YOU WANT TO. There's two aspects to this;
1. A lack of race/class diversity in endgame content. Notice, if you're not running Orc Stamblade right now, your numbers aren't good enough to run with the top tier META crowd. Now put two and two together with the recent BUTCHERING of Stamblade... makes sense now doesn't it? Stamblade is currently out performing everything else because the META players have fine tuned it to the point of being game breaking. And this leads me to my next point...
2. Community toxicity! This incredible game, the only one like it in its category actually, is sold on the fact that you can PLAY HOW YOU WANT TO. There is no play style that cannot be viable IF you take the time to learn the game and understand how it relates to what you're trying to accomplish with your build. Please stop telling players how they HAVE TO play a game that IS NOT designed around a specific way to play it. Beyond your leaderboard score, that no one really cares about mind you, the only thing you're accomplishing is screwing up a good thing for everyone else. People inherently get pissed off with your arrogance when they encounter you in game, and doubly so when that arrogance and leaderboard greed creates rushed changes that shake the foundation of every other aspect of the game.
Enough is enough, and that's to both the META players AND the devs/class reps. So in closing, I'd like to humbly ask the devs; Can we please take a battle axe to the leaderboards instead of taking a battle axe to the amazing game you created patch after patch? Please?
TLDR: Leaderboards lead to toxic META players. Toxic META players lead to game breaking builds. Game breaking builds lead to rushed balance changes. Rushed balance changes lead to hundreds if not thousands of pissed off players. No leaderboards = less headaches for everyone full circle and more time to put thought into quality balance changes when they're actually needed.
All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, otherwise the content that the devs work on so painstakingly would become meaninglessly easy. These META players are constantly pushing that envelope until they figure out how to break through. This creates a problem for the class reps/devs. Once that threshold is broken, they have to scramble to correct it before it becomes widespread knowledge and everyone starts breezing through the content. When this happens, the changes more often than not make no sense to just about everyone else who couldn't care less about a trial score (a staggeringly high percentage of the player base).
The other aspect to this problem is the toxicity that it creates in a game that IS SOLD ON AND DESIGNED TO ALLOW YOU THE FREEDOM TO PLAY AS YOU WANT TO. There's two aspects to this;
1. A lack of race/class diversity in endgame content. Notice, if you're not running Orc Stamblade right now, your numbers aren't good enough to run with the top tier META crowd. Now put two and two together with the recent BUTCHERING of Stamblade... makes sense now doesn't it? Stamblade is currently out performing everything else because the META players have fine tuned it to the point of being game breaking. And this leads me to my next point...
2. Community toxicity! This incredible game, the only one like it in its category actually, is sold on the fact that you can PLAY HOW YOU WANT TO. There is no play style that cannot be viable IF you take the time to learn the game and understand how it relates to what you're trying to accomplish with your build. Please stop telling players how they HAVE TO play a game that IS NOT designed around a specific way to play it. Beyond your leaderboard score, that no one really cares about mind you, the only thing you're accomplishing is screwing up a good thing for everyone else. People inherently get pissed off with your arrogance when they encounter you in game, and doubly so when that arrogance and leaderboard greed creates rushed changes that shake the foundation of every other aspect of the game.
Enough is enough, and that's to both the META players AND the devs/class reps. So in closing, I'd like to humbly ask the devs; Can we please take a battle axe to the leaderboards instead of taking a battle axe to the amazing game you created patch after patch? Please?
TLDR: Leaderboards lead to toxic META players. Toxic META players lead to game breaking builds. Game breaking builds lead to rushed balance changes. Rushed balance changes lead to hundreds if not thousands of pissed off players. No leaderboards = less headaches for everyone full circle and more time to put thought into quality balance changes when they're actually needed.
8
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Kikke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So many lies.. score pushers and meta chasers are not realy the same. Score pushers sets the standards meta chasers run after. And balance changes happends because... balance? Even without leaderboards there would be a meta.
And leaderboards gives incentives too return to a cleared trial even after getting everything from there.Cleared Trials:
- vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
-Someone said it, I guess.17 -
Jabassa✭✭✭So many lies.. score pushers and meta chasers are not realy the same. Score pushers sets the standards meta chasers run after. And balance changes happends because... balance? Even without leaderboards there would be a meta.
And leaderboards gives incentives too return to a cleared trial even after getting everything from there.
If I understand correctly, this game is not built around a META, and was never intended to be competitive otherwise it would have been built around a META focus. The META came with the leaderboards. hence the "play how you want"1 -
Jabassa✭✭✭So many lies.. score pushers and meta chasers are not realy the same. Score pushers sets the standards meta chasers run after. And balance changes happends because... balance? Even without leaderboards there would be a meta.
And leaderboards gives incentives too return to a cleared trial even after getting everything from there.
If people want to return, they will. You don't need a leaderboard to make you want to. Personal record would be enough for that, but not a public leaderboard. That only breeds competition.
I saw a post today that someone hit 3600 CP, the cap is 810. There was absolutely no need for that person to grind that out, but they did... because they wanted to. Players don't NEED incentive to play the game in whatever way tickles their fancy.5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
You are wrong on three accounts.
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback. A few updates later they removed that knockback totally. Zos totally change their way of thinking on the skill and this skill is not going to get anyone on the leaderboards.
That demonstrates Matt Firor had not lead his team to think through their changes very well.
Additionally, Zos is the one that makes changes to our skills and add new sets that make us stronger. A prime example is how they buffed WoE after adding the vMA weapons so the vMA staff was worth using.
Changes like this and new sets is where most of our power creep comes from.
Lastly, every MMORPG has meta. Sometimes it may be as simple as a rotation that if you do not do it right your dps will tank hard. To blame meta is just showing a lack of understanding of MMORPGS. Especially the part that the devs really do not know jack about how their game plays and must learn from the players.
Case in point. the devs are watching players in the new trial right now to see how that instance actually works because they had very little means to truly test it until it hit the PTS. They tend to learn much of the details of the game from players as we are the experts.
5 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So many lies.. score pushers and meta chasers are not realy the same. Score pushers sets the standards meta chasers run after. And balance changes happends because... balance? Even without leaderboards there would be a meta.
And leaderboards gives incentives too return to a cleared trial even after getting everything from there.
If I understand correctly, this game is not built around a META, and was never intended to be competitive otherwise it would have been built around a META focus. The META came with the leaderboards. hence the "play how you want"
You are correct that the game is not built around Meta as the devs do not determine what works best. They lack that knowledge.
However, this game was deigned to have competitive PvE. That is why we have leaderboards. That does not make OP correct, as they are not.1 -
JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭...
u think too good about them.
they don't figure out what they do extremly often.
like "ha, lets do this *** - it would be great! fkkk all calculations and analysis of feedbacks". God of Random help us!
then, "oh, it's broken? ok we will fix in 3 years. maybe". like a great "discoveries and achievements" and "gift from heaven".Edited by JusticeSouldier on May 11, 2019 5:38AMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.2 -
Jabassa✭✭✭All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
You are wrong on three accounts.
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback. A few updates later they removed that knockback totally. Zos totally change their way of thinking on the skill and this skill is not going to get anyone on the leaderboards.
That demonstrates Matt Firor had not lead his team to think through their changes very well.
Additionally, Zos is the one that makes changes to our skills and add new sets that make us stronger. A prime example is how they buffed WoE after adding the vMA weapons so the vMA staff was worth using.
Changes like this and new sets is where most of our power creep comes from.
Lastly, every MMORPG has meta. Sometimes it may be as simple as a rotation that if you do not do it right your dps will tank hard. To blame meta is just showing a lack of understanding of MMORPGS. Especially the part that the devs really do not know jack about how their game plays and must learn from the players.
Case in point. the devs are watching players in the new trial right now to see how that instance actually works because they had very little means to truly test it until it hit the PTS. They tend to learn much of the details of the game from players as we are the experts.
I played WoW from launch up until joining ESO last year. Cleared all the content in that time too. I certainly am not going to claim that gives me an expert understanding of MMORPGS, but I certainly know a thing or two about them.
The javelin example is not a good one. It's a PvP skill for one, and PvP is inherently a competitive environment. The knockback also still exists. Not to mention, people often don't push the envelope to game breaking extent in PvP. Most changes happen there because people are complaining.
I'm fully aware that the devs are watching us play to see how the new content works. They're always watching for that matter, even after it goes live. This has been proven MMO after MMO, WoW being the most famous for devs shutting raids down midway through.
META - most effective tactic available; that by no means infers that it is the only tactic that can clear content. It's simply the most effective, meaning the most refined. Sometimes it's refined to the point that it breaks the game, and becomes widespread. You know, because it's a meta. What you're failing to grasp is that ESO is unlike every other MMORPG out there in that it does not limit you to the way you're able to build your character and be viable. There are infinite combinations, and realistically no way to test them all.
You are right that new sets and the like are what create the creep and that the devs cannot possibly foresee every possible combination. But when every top tier DPS is running the same build on the same race on the same class, that's a problem. Unfortunately, because of your trial meta, NB is getting gutted and that spills over into other aspects of the game... because meta players are greedy for leaderboard scores and abusing it. You don't need to have THE BEST build to clear the content.3 -
Jabassa✭✭✭So many lies.. score pushers and meta chasers are not realy the same. Score pushers sets the standards meta chasers run after. And balance changes happends because... balance? Even without leaderboards there would be a meta.
And leaderboards gives incentives too return to a cleared trial even after getting everything from there.
If I understand correctly, this game is not built around a META, and was never intended to be competitive otherwise it would have been built around a META focus. The META came with the leaderboards. hence the "play how you want"
You are correct that the game is not built around Meta as the devs do not determine what works best. They lack that knowledge.
However, this game was deigned to have competitive PvE. That is why we have leaderboards. That does not make OP correct, as they are not.
If the game was designed with competitive PvE in mind, it would have launched with leaderboards. It did not0 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don’t think the devs play enough or well enough to truly get a handle on their game. They watch the leaderboards, they created and consulted the class reps, they read the forums etc etc. None of it gives them a real feel for their game. THAT’S where crazy changes come from-like Sloads, DW enchants, cast times on shields, silence on incap.
I’m not bagging on the devs. They have a job to do, and that job is not sitting around playing video games all day. Rather, it’s to create a game a LOT of people are willing to pay a LOT of money to play and keep playing.
My only hope for ESO is that this desire to make money continues to spur the devs on to make the game fun to play; or, surely one day many will quit and play something else.
If ZOS is “killing it right now” KEEP killing it and don’t kill the game.Edited by JumpmanLane on May 11, 2019 6:04AM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
You are wrong on three accounts.
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback. A few updates later they removed that knockback totally. Zos totally change their way of thinking on the skill and this skill is not going to get anyone on the leaderboards.
That demonstrates Matt Firor had not lead his team to think through their changes very well.
Additionally, Zos is the one that makes changes to our skills and add new sets that make us stronger. A prime example is how they buffed WoE after adding the vMA weapons so the vMA staff was worth using.
Changes like this and new sets is where most of our power creep comes from.
Lastly, every MMORPG has meta. Sometimes it may be as simple as a rotation that if you do not do it right your dps will tank hard. To blame meta is just showing a lack of understanding of MMORPGS. Especially the part that the devs really do not know jack about how their game plays and must learn from the players.
Case in point. the devs are watching players in the new trial right now to see how that instance actually works because they had very little means to truly test it until it hit the PTS. They tend to learn much of the details of the game from players as we are the experts.
META - most effective tactic available; that by no means infers that it is the only tactic that can clear content.
This says it all. n every MMORPG, including WoW, players always look for the most effective tactic available to clear content. Granted, it may not be every group that goes for the most effective tactics available, but that is what separates good raid leaders from the rest.
I get that you raided near or at the top of WoW and that is great. But that may be the issue. WoW is an extremely simplistic game when compared to ESO. The people who run WoW would lose their mind trying to figure out ESO. ESO has enough trouble figuring it out and they built the game.
So to blame top players in ESO for finding what build give them the most juice and what tactics work most efficiently when they are doing the same thing as the top players in WoW but just have much more to work with seems entirely misplaced and misguided.
0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So many lies.. score pushers and meta chasers are not realy the same. Score pushers sets the standards meta chasers run after. And balance changes happends because... balance? Even without leaderboards there would be a meta.
And leaderboards gives incentives too return to a cleared trial even after getting everything from there.
If I understand correctly, this game is not built around a META, and was never intended to be competitive otherwise it would have been built around a META focus. The META came with the leaderboards. hence the "play how you want"
You are correct that the game is not built around Meta as the devs do not determine what works best. They lack that knowledge.
However, this game was deigned to have competitive PvE. That is why we have leaderboards. That does not make OP correct, as they are not.
If the game was designed with competitive PvE in mind, it would have launched with leaderboards. It did not
And you would be wrong again.
When the game launched there was nothing to tie PvE leaderboards do as there were no trials in the game oh March 30, 2014 (early access iirc) or April 4, 2014 which was the official launch date.
By your reasoning ESO was not designed to have any PvE raids or it would have launched with them.
Though the informed person knew that ESO was launching an update soon afterwards that would contain the end game raids. With update 1.1 Zos introduced the Craglorn zone which included the first two trials. And low and behold those trails each came with leaderboards and the weekly leaderboard we have now.
So the FACT is ESO was designed with competitive PvE in mind. It is absurd to suggest that because the raids were not added until just shy of 60 days after launch means anything like you have suggested.1 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback.
For Stamplar, the knockback for Templar Javelin is still detrimental to Magicka Templar unless you're in a zerg. Both morphs should have knocked the enemy flat to the ground, instead of throwing someone far as f*** out of a Templar "house," but ZoS has refused to listen to the countless amounts of feedback about this over years now.Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.1 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To the OP:
Why are you blaming players for playing what's effective and best? Not everything needs to adhere to RP needs.Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.2 -
Jabassa✭✭✭So many lies.. score pushers and meta chasers are not realy the same. Score pushers sets the standards meta chasers run after. And balance changes happends because... balance? Even without leaderboards there would be a meta.
And leaderboards gives incentives too return to a cleared trial even after getting everything from there.
If I understand correctly, this game is not built around a META, and was never intended to be competitive otherwise it would have been built around a META focus. The META came with the leaderboards. hence the "play how you want"
You are correct that the game is not built around Meta as the devs do not determine what works best. They lack that knowledge.
However, this game was deigned to have competitive PvE. That is why we have leaderboards. That does not make OP correct, as they are not.
If the game was designed with competitive PvE in mind, it would have launched with leaderboards. It did not
And you would be wrong again.
When the game launched there was nothing to tie PvE leaderboards do as there were no trials in the game oh March 30, 2014 (early access iirc) or April 4, 2014 which was the official launch date.
By your reasoning ESO was not designed to have any PvE raids or it would have launched with them.
Though the informed person knew that ESO was launching an update soon afterwards that would contain the end game raids. With update 1.1 Zos introduced the Craglorn zone which included the first two trials. And low and behold those trails each came with leaderboards and the weekly leaderboard we have now.
So the FACT is ESO was designed with competitive PvE in mind. It is absurd to suggest that because the raids were not added until just shy of 60 days after launch means anything like you have suggested.
I didn't know this, I can admit I stand corrected on this one0 -
Jabassa✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »To the OP:
Why are you blaming players for playing what's effective and best? Not everything needs to adhere to RP needs.
It has nothing to do with RP needs. I'm blaming the players for not diversifying their parties to the point where the devs don't feel the need to gut a class that didn't need it in every other avenue of the game. Because a couple points on the leaderboard is more important to them.0 -
Jabassa✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback.
For Stamplar, the knockback for Templar Javelin is still detrimental to Magicka Templar unless you're in a zerg. Both morphs should have knocked the enemy flat to the ground, instead of throwing someone far as f*** out of a Templar "house," but ZoS has refused to listen to the countless amounts of feedback about this over years now.
That's because ZOS is too busy trying to figure out how to stay ahead of the meta0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Allow me to respectfully disagree with the OP.
Zos doesnt balance with only the PvE leaderboard in mind. There might have been changes that were because of the PvE leaderboard but there have also been changes that were because of PvP, casual PvE and about every part of the game.
There will always be a meta until everything and everyone does the same with no exceptions at all, that is not true for only PvE but also PvP, allowing someone to play how they want and having a meta are not mutually exclusive things, said way of killing a meta is also not a very good way to encourage someone to play how they want or is it?
People breezing through content is not the fault of a meta existing but rather the fault of Zos steadily increasing power creep be it through CP, stuff like summerset light attack changes or gear. You looked at the new sunspire stam dps set? Boy thats gonna raise some ceilings. For example the last fight in veteran MoL was intended to be played with the lunar phase when MoL released, if you ask trialgoers now what a lunar phase is 80% of the people wont know. This is not the fault of some meta existing but the fault of the steady power creep Zos introduced, since even with off meta setups you will not see a lunar phase unless you are roleplaying or something.
Your assumption that leaderboard chasers are toxic people is in many cases wrong. In my experience the more toxic people in vet dungeon pugs for example are the mediocre players that cant carry a pug on their own and will seek any angle they can to blame whoever they want to blame regardless of themselves also not performing well.
People like Alcast who make the "big bad meta builds" know that off meta builds can get the job done aswell. Player skill is the more deciding factor. Liko on an orc magden will still outdps minimum 80% of the playerbase.
Wanna know why they keep making meta builds and giving meta sets as advice? One they run them themselves, Second when Alcast answers on stream that every class/ build can get the job done as long as you as a player are skilled enough he gets told that this is irrelevant and that whoever asked wants to know the latest meta stuff most of the time.
So no its not the leaderboard people that demand everyone run meta setups, they all run meta setups themselves since they are the most effective, but in my experience they dont force any random player to run them, or any player that they dont run with really, but it is the random players themselves that force themselves to run meta setups in hopes that this will make content easier for them.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
Jabassa✭✭✭All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
You are wrong on three accounts.
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback. A few updates later they removed that knockback totally. Zos totally change their way of thinking on the skill and this skill is not going to get anyone on the leaderboards.
That demonstrates Matt Firor had not lead his team to think through their changes very well.
Additionally, Zos is the one that makes changes to our skills and add new sets that make us stronger. A prime example is how they buffed WoE after adding the vMA weapons so the vMA staff was worth using.
Changes like this and new sets is where most of our power creep comes from.
Lastly, every MMORPG has meta. Sometimes it may be as simple as a rotation that if you do not do it right your dps will tank hard. To blame meta is just showing a lack of understanding of MMORPGS. Especially the part that the devs really do not know jack about how their game plays and must learn from the players.
Case in point. the devs are watching players in the new trial right now to see how that instance actually works because they had very little means to truly test it until it hit the PTS. They tend to learn much of the details of the game from players as we are the experts.
META - most effective tactic available; that by no means infers that it is the only tactic that can clear content.
(1)This says it all. n every MMORPG, including WoW, players always look for the most effective tactic available to clear content. Granted, it may not be every group that goes for the most effective tactics available, but that is what separates good raid leaders from the rest.
(2)I get that you raided near or at the top of WoW and that is great. But that may be the issue. WoW is an extremely simplistic game when compared to ESO. The people who run WoW would lose their mind trying to figure out ESO. ESO has enough trouble figuring it out and they built the game.
(3)So to blame top players in ESO for finding what build give them the most juice and what tactics work most efficiently when they are doing the same thing as the top players in WoW but just have much more to work with seems entirely misplaced and misguided.
(1) A good raid leader does not mandate who runs what build and how. That's a lazy raid leader. A good Raid leader takes the tools he has available, as in who's playing what in his party, figures out how it will all work together, and coaches his party through the raid.
(2) you're 100% correct, that's why I'm here now.
(3) it's not about use, it's about abuse. If everyone is using the same build/class/race that is a problem to the devs.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kind of. Sort of. Not really.
The main reason for the constant balance changes is simple: ZOS needs to keep players playing the game. They need to keep players from getting bored and leaving for other games.
But how to do that? They can't pump out content at the rate that players can complete it! Both questers and dungeon runners and trial guilds complete the content much faster than ZOS can create it.
So instead, ZOS uses Horizontal Progression.
Horizontal Progression makes these constant small changes to the skills, gear, classes, and races so that players aren't quite as good as they were before. They will grind to be back to where they were before. This keeps us occupied with fixing our builds for a good portion of the update cycle...and then we'll do it all again next update.
That's the major part of ZOS' balance changes.
But when it comes to the big sweeping changes? The Morrowind Sustain Nerfs? #Nerfmire?
There, you are absolutely right. Mostly.
Remember that ZOS wants players to keep playing the game. When end-game players start saying "Man, this is too easy!" That not a good sign for ZOS. Because ZOS doesn't want to design harder tiers of content that's out of reach of most players that can challenge just the top tier. So ZOS tries (and sometimes fails) to reset the difficulty, largely by nerfing players with a big gameplay change.
So when I look at ZOS' eternal quest for balance, I see it's end goal for what it really is: an eternal quest to shake things up so players of all levels don't get bored and leave the game.3 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭What's wrong with being Toxic?
Edited by Dr_Ganknstein on May 11, 2019 12:12PM1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Another thing that needs to be recognized here is that though WoW didn't launch with a meta in mind, it did adopt it within its design. The progression system there is evidence enough of that. @idk
Games rarely launch with a specific meta in mind. While I havent played WoW myself there must have been a meta after launch too or was every class exactly the same and if there was no meta then players simply didnt discover it. Regardless of your initial intent and regardless of what you change there will always be a meta as long as there is diversity, this isnt even restricted to MMOs. In MOBAs for example there is always a meta aswell, that doesnt mean non meta stuff cannot be effective but that there is simply better alternatives, again this will never change as long as there is any diversity left.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Welcome to MMOs. I would have thought that your points in the OP would be obvious. However, you missed the pvp aspect too where discovering something OP leads to it needing to be nerfed too.
You’re missing a couple things:
1. Understanding the combat system so you can exploit it is fun, well at least for me it is. It’s only a bad thing when it goes to people’s heads and they start calling everyone else bad, and think understanding and exploiting the system makes them a ‘good player’. But you know, if someone’s a jerk they’re going to look for an outlet to spread their negativity to the world.
2. The meta chasers as you call them are doing a service to the game. As much as people love bashing them, they’re doing live testing. No amount of diligence will find everything that’s broken, there’s just too many variables unless you overly simply the game and make it boring. Hardcore raiding guilds typically have dev connections because they pass information back and forth which is mutually beneficial. They’re brought into betas not to be given an advantage, but to create a more polished product for the majority of players. Trust me, fighting broken encounter mechanics can be frustrating and polishing it up helps the majority of players. I would even argue that the reason there were so many broken things when the game released (or so I’ve been told) is because they didn’t pull in hardcore players in early beta/alpha like WoW did.Edited by Iskiab on May 11, 2019 1:02PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not leaderboards or the (perception of the) META.
As far as your distaste for players and builders who in the pursuit of power only end up breaking the game, that's going to happen regardless of if there are leaderboards or how ZOS designs they're game. Some people enjoy "min-maxing," enjoy power, enjoy theory-crafting on how to break a game and this is inherent to games and competition in general. That's going to happen and there's going to be "game-breaking" builds.
ZOS's problem is that because pretty much the only thing that matter is a DPS parse, that power is easily quantifiable and thus "toxic" players have a strong foundation for their claims that their builds are "better." Every other fantasy game I have ever played has ensured that power is more than just damage and intentionally made classes have their strengths and weaknesses so they'd shine in some encounters but not so much in others.
Edited by Joy_Division on May 11, 2019 3:22PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The Nobel "Peace Prize" originates from a man trying to find the META for explosives. I wonder if Alfred Nobel was considered a toxic person at the time for his inventions, and his attempts at redemption.Fear is the Mindkiller3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
You are wrong on three accounts.
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback. A few updates later they removed that knockback totally. Zos totally change their way of thinking on the skill and this skill is not going to get anyone on the leaderboards.
That demonstrates Matt Firor had not lead his team to think through their changes very well.
Additionally, Zos is the one that makes changes to our skills and add new sets that make us stronger. A prime example is how they buffed WoE after adding the vMA weapons so the vMA staff was worth using.
Changes like this and new sets is where most of our power creep comes from.
Lastly, every MMORPG has meta. Sometimes it may be as simple as a rotation that if you do not do it right your dps will tank hard. To blame meta is just showing a lack of understanding of MMORPGS. Especially the part that the devs really do not know jack about how their game plays and must learn from the players.
Case in point. the devs are watching players in the new trial right now to see how that instance actually works because they had very little means to truly test it until it hit the PTS. They tend to learn much of the details of the game from players as we are the experts.
META - most effective tactic available; that by no means infers that it is the only tactic that can clear content.
(1)This says it all. n every MMORPG, including WoW, players always look for the most effective tactic available to clear content. Granted, it may not be every group that goes for the most effective tactics available, but that is what separates good raid leaders from the rest.
(2)I get that you raided near or at the top of WoW and that is great. But that may be the issue. WoW is an extremely simplistic game when compared to ESO. The people who run WoW would lose their mind trying to figure out ESO. ESO has enough trouble figuring it out and they built the game.
(3)So to blame top players in ESO for finding what build give them the most juice and what tactics work most efficiently when they are doing the same thing as the top players in WoW but just have much more to work with seems entirely misplaced and misguided.
(1) A good raid leader does not mandate who runs what build and how. That's a lazy raid leader. A good Raid leader takes the tools he has available, as in who's playing what in his party, figures out how it will all work together, and coaches his party through the raid.
You are correct that good raid leader does not mandates builds and of course I never said they did. As I said a good raid leader works with effective tactics for how the group approaches each fight.
(3) it's not about use, it's about abuse. If everyone is using the same build/class/race that is a problem to the devs.All the leaderboards do is breed Sweaty META Eugenes who, incredible players and builders as they are, only end up breaking the game. Not convinced? The game is designed to only allow you to become so strong, .
You are wrong on three accounts.
I will start with an example of Zos' changes. They increased the effectiveness of the Templar Javelin knockback. A few updates later they removed that knockback totally. Zos totally change their way of thinking on the skill and this skill is not going to get anyone on the leaderboards.
That demonstrates Matt Firor had not lead his team to think through their changes very well.
Additionally, Zos is the one that makes changes to our skills and add new sets that make us stronger. A prime example is how they buffed WoE after adding the vMA weapons so the vMA staff was worth using.
Changes like this and new sets is where most of our power creep comes from.
Lastly, every MMORPG has meta. Sometimes it may be as simple as a rotation that if you do not do it right your dps will tank hard. To blame meta is just showing a lack of understanding of MMORPGS. Especially the part that the devs really do not know jack about how their game plays and must learn from the players.
Case in point. the devs are watching players in the new trial right now to see how that instance actually works because they had very little means to truly test it until it hit the PTS. They tend to learn much of the details of the game from players as we are the experts.
META - most effective tactic available; that by no means infers that it is the only tactic that can clear content.
(1)This says it all. n every MMORPG, including WoW, players always look for the most effective tactic available to clear content. Granted, it may not be every group that goes for the most effective tactics available, but that is what separates good raid leaders from the rest.
(2)I get that you raided near or at the top of WoW and that is great. But that may be the issue. WoW is an extremely simplistic game when compared to ESO. The people who run WoW would lose their mind trying to figure out ESO. ESO has enough trouble figuring it out and they built the game.
(3)So to blame top players in ESO for finding what build give them the most juice and what tactics work most efficiently when they are doing the same thing as the top players in WoW but just have much more to work with seems entirely misplaced and misguided.
And players finding what works best and using that is not abuse but an stretch of the imagination. A good player always looks for means to improve within the design of the game. That is good for the game and it is absolutely fabulous these players push themselves to consider and test changes to their build to improve.
I get that you have your opinion but these players are merely working with how Zos designed the each skill and armor set in the game. It is normal and expected that player push themselves in their gameplay. It even happens in WoW as I said but they clearly have less to work with.
I find it odd that you left WoW and came to ESO as you state because of how overly simplistic WoW is yet you complain about the net effect of the ESO design.
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Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Kind of. Sort of. Not really.
The main reason for the constant balance changes is simple: ZOS needs to keep players playing the game. They need to keep players from getting bored and leaving for other games.
.
The latest few rounds of "balance" are going to push people out of the game if they go live
Beta tester November 20131 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Kind of. Sort of. Not really.
The main reason for the constant balance changes is simple: ZOS needs to keep players playing the game. They need to keep players from getting bored and leaving for other games.
.
The latest few rounds of "balance" are going to push people out of the game if they go live
People have been saying this since Morrowind, at least.
Thing is, people eventually get bored or frustrated anyway. By this method, ZOS gets a LOT more time out of most players than they otherwise would if those players finished everything, got bored, and left.
Neither did "I'm quitting!" tears stop the Great Sustain Nerfs of Morrowind or #Nerfmire (because the Devs were doing that to reset the difficulty on PVE content), so don't think that's going to stop ZOS now.2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »It's not leaderboards or the (perception of the) META.
As far as your distaste for players and builders who in the pursuit of power only end up breaking the game, that's going to happen regardless of if there are leaderboards or how ZOS designs they're game. Some people enjoy "min-maxing," enjoy power, enjoy theory-crafting on how to break a game and this is inherent to games and competition in general. That's going to happen and there's going to be "game-breaking" builds.
ZOS's problem is that because pretty much the only thing that matter is a DPS parse, that power is easily quantifiable and thus "toxic" players have a strong foundation for their claims that their builds are "better." Every other fantasy game I have ever played has ensured that power is more than just damage and intentionally made classes have their strengths and weaknesses so they'd shine in some encounters but not so much in others.
There is not enough depth in PvE to have classes be useful in ways other than increasing total DPS done by the raid. Plain and simple, I hate to say it, I don't see a way out of this mess but ESO PvE doesn't have enough sandbox elements or varying situations to have value in classes other than the amount of DPS they provide. In the end it all comes down to how fast can you nuke that boss.
The minor/major buff-debuff system and how you either have something or don't, also plays a part. I'm lazy to explain but one good example is how we had sets like sunderflame/nmg/morag tong etc providing value to classes that otherwise lacked it, and now those classes are not competitive anymore in any way.Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 11, 2019 5:09PM0