Talking about unhealthy gameplay...

Kidgangster101 · May 2019

likecats wrote: »

Zophix wrote: »

I just want to know why wings is considered unhealthy gameplay when it only reflects projectiles and is targeted for its 100% mitigation of projectiles. It seems pretty simple, don't use projectiles... Meanwhile you can just roll-dodge everything and still get the 100% mitigation on projectiles + almost everything else.

Because there are classes that can not function without projectiles?

Lets put aside the fact that melee magblade is unviable (since stamblade eclipses melee magblade in every way) in wrathstone patch, and consider what they have.

1) Reflectable burst skill
2) Reflectable utility skill (cripple)
3) Reflectable execute

If magblades could slot an alternate ability for these three skills then yes, you would have a point of not using projectiles. But there are no alternatives.

Telling magblades to not use projectiles is like telling a DK to become a ranged caster. So many DKs saying they have nothing to counter people at range. But using their own philosophy of what constitutes as a counter, they're blatantly lying.
Just by slotting destro staff, they have:

1) A ranged spammable (as does melee magblades against wings)
2) A cc (as does melee magblade against wings)
3) Light attacks (as does melee magblade against wings)
4) An ultimate (as does melee magblade against wings)

But despite all of this, you simply can not expect a DK with destro staff to kill anything.

It genuinely seems impossible to explain why 'Just slot force pulse/concealed weapon' argument is ridiculous until it gets turn around on DKs.

P.S: This was a melee magblade scenario, if we switch melee magblade to ranged magblade that does have some use cases, it gets countered even harder by wings.

I have said for a very long time wings aren't the problem it was mag NB. Mag NB should have been reworked so more of it's toolkit isn't reflectable especially the execute.

Kidgangster101 · May 2019

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Counter wings? Any bad magdk could keep heavy attacking and keep wings up 100% of the time. Soul harvest>fear>merciless could work but even trash dks put their wings up after a soul harvest. Not knowing counter play vs a class who has a skill that completely disables a particular class is unhealthy.

But if you think it was wrong of them then wait for the current version of incap to go live and let's see you not complain when the same karma follows you back.

Other than that, yes the pet sorc issue is a huge problem in pvp lol. Shield + pet stacking op!!!

The counter to old wings was to not have your entire build based around ranged reflectable projectiles.

The counter to the new incap's silence is what? Play stamina?

Good thing then magika NB is full of projectiles and rely on LA alot,if you think slotting force pulse or concealed weapon was enough well....
it was not enough

Which the really odd thing, you know?

Because ZOS changed wings, in part due to Magblades complaining about old wings countering most of their toolkit.

And then Incap gets a 3 second hard counter to every magicka build...

?

The incap change is a mistake and they alredy said is going to change so i don't see the problem.

Wing was a problem too and needed a change,i have seen better suggestion on the forum than the one they choose but still.

Wings wasn't a huge problem people never wanted to play against it but we are always told to learn to play against cloak the irony because that is zos baby lol.

As far as wings go there is still another move that prevents "ranged" gameplay and can you guess what move that is? Cloak allows you to completely dodge a ranged move...... Yep fair completely fair because it's on NB of course 😁

Yes, there are no counters to cloak and none of the are getting huge damage buffs next patch. *whistles suspiciously trying to hide a pile of Detect Pots behind her back*

And if you ever played magblade you'd know how hard it is to secure a ranged kill without health desyncs, ganks from horse, etc. Magblade will be more melee than ever next patch too . You too can be invincible at range if you just crouch and not fight. That's why it is called P v (no one) because you'd rather never die.

Let me use snipe and then when someone Snipes me back I just cloak to evade.

You cast dark flare I will cloak to evade damage completely.

You want to wrecking blow let me cloak and evade damage completely and now because I'm close I might as well surprise attack and do high damage and stun you in return.

Insert any ranged move here or cast time watch me cloak and I can counter attack you with a guaranteed crit and a stun!

Yep sounds fair lol. And as far as "detect pots" go you mean I have to give up either time out of my day to farm mats or spend gold buying mats just to stop a NB fully? Yep balance right there. Especially considering it has a short range so if you are far from me using ranged attacks it doesn't work. Now if a detect pot worked at the same range as snipe then come back and talk to me. Also if I didn't have to give up a potion that could be useful for me during a fight as well that would be nice.

Oh how ironic NB just got a free detect pot in their toolkit so if I'm a NB I don't need a detect pot? Yeah seems legit lol all the forum blades are the same and the sad thing is the devs cater to you all and you guys say you still get nerfed legit read the patch notes and see who got nerfed.

Dk lost wings and has to double bar a move. That would be like them saying to get grim focus buff back in the day it would need to be double barred.....

Stamsorc got no buff and had wrecking blow damage nerfed so that's a Nerf to them

Templar lost protection from their ultimate and had dark flare nerfed by 37% and jabs didn't get a damage increase so it is now the weakest aoe as all other aoe moves got buffed to be "brought in line with each other" lol
.
Snares reduction hurt mag warden

Sub assault from Stam warden blockable now

Tank side of NB got butchered and it shouldn't have.

Yet none of those even got considered it was worth making them stronger just saying

I will not talk about cloak too much because it seem you have 0 idea on what youre talking about.
The example you posted are so random that hardly they make any sense.

Detect pot are a choice not a requirement if you think you are forced to use them that's on you.
Mark target will be used only by zergling and last only 5 second,no decent NB will run it in PvP.

Dk lost wing?50% dmg reduction on every projectile is not a nerf,it's a change.
Tell me where are the counter to wing on live?there is a pot that make projectile unreflectable or magelight dispell and suppress wings?
Aoe or any skill that can deal dmg to the dk remove wings?

It's so hard to understand that cloak is not wing or streak?

Stamsorc got few change like the scaling on streak and the "nerf" to WB is not a nerf to stamsorc since is not a stamsorc skill and many people also run with DW as dmg bar not the 2hand.
Stamsorc need some change i agree but since the most complained class are stamina NB and magsorc,this patch was trying to rebalance the NB kit since is too much oriented in single target and mhe at everything else,magsorc is more well rounded and are easier to balance.

Warden is the best smallscale/bg stamina class in the game a nerf is not the end of the world.

Stamina NB in heavy/bleed was OP in PvP and needed some nerf im sure next patch will still be good.

Jab's got a faster animation btw.

Snare needed a nerf,did you read the forum in past month's no one like the snare meta.

NB lost Major fracture,minor endurance and minor berserk,minor maim and a snare in fear and major defile.

I have zero idea how cloak works? Lol why don't you try doing what I said because I do it all the time on my NB and it's very easy to evade attacks it's not.my fault you don't know how to use your own toolkit.

You know that infinite sustain people say exist for do to keep up wings? That is a CP problem so once again we are nerfing a move due to CP because in non CP you run out of wings. And btw to all the nbs saying they can't perma cloak but dk can perma wing you guys realize they are basically the same cost right? Also dk has nothing good to close the gap against ranged users that is why they used wings. Wanna know how you fight wings? Do some light attacks then use your move the light attacks eat up wings 😉

Stamsorc was nerfed when wrecking blow got hit most stamsorc use 2h as they lack class skills lol.

The Nerf to magwarden is pretty big they lack damage compared to a lot of classes and shalks got nerfed for magic users too. This change is the equivalent of taking cloak away from NB because that was all they were good at. I get no one likes snare but they should have received a buff to other things because they are bad in pve and in pvp outside of snares.

Stam NB needed to be nerfed but ruining them in pve is not the answer or way to do it lol. A very experienced player made a post saying things that he didn't want to happen and everything he said not to do zos did and he had a lot of great changes for the class but here we are with forumblades not even understanding how their own class or others work.

Jabs got a faster animation lol Templars need more than that. You can run into the person and stop it just like wrecking blow I'm so glad nbs don't have channeled moves that stand them in place while casting

And as far as you say you lost all those abilities, all of your moves were overloaded and you had many other class options to slot to get them. you lost berserk but got vulnerability. Your low cost ultimate was overloaded by far compared to any other ultimate of similar cost. You guys also gained 15% damage mitigation. Glad you think marked target is so bad. Since it's bad and no one will run it you guys wouldn't care if magelught and camo Hunter mark you as well and let's lower the cost for them too while we are at it 😁

I can tell you i might be not the best player but i know what my NB can do,youre example where so random that hardly i can think you know what cloak can do or not.

the point of this patch for the NB was not to nerf them but to rebalance them and except for the silence i think they did overall a good job.
About Mark target is not that mark target is bad per se but a NB don't have a spot for in on their bar unless they are on the zerg especially after the patch where all the NB buff are moved on other skill or removed like major defile.
mark target will be even too good in a xvs1 situation.

For pve tank NB they just buffed dark cloak again so we will see if they are "ruined".
The extra 15% is great but it need to be stacked and if you fire the bow is lost same if you go out of combat.

if the magika warden after the snare change are really weak they should be buffed but i didn't see any post about warden complaining about it ut i might also have missed them.

About cloak you can evade single target skill but cloak got so many counter in the game that is not even comparable to wing,cloak can be totally negated with the use of one of those counter,you don't need to even slot a specific skill to counter cloak,any class in the game got atleast one skill that work against it.(only warden might have some problem but they can use weapon skill at worst)
BTW Not saying cloak is trash and useless.

About wing the problem was that the DK was able to stay on top of you while also begin immune doing a full rotation on you and if you tried to do some dmg?well you take even more dmg nothing you could do about it.
If i deal dmg to a dk with wings up with force pulse or concealed weapon and im a mageblade nothing change since like 80% of my class kit is negated anyway and i don't have the choice to use magelight dispell and suppress wing for the duration or drink a potion like you can do with cloak.(not even counting AoE that deal dmg and break cloak)
I also said that i have seen better suggestion for wing for example wing reflect only if youre a X meter away from the dk so if youre melee range or really close to the dk you can fight back,this way you could even buff the number of skill that could be reflected by wings since now there is counterplay to it.

Wings where just too good vs some class/build especially mageblade.

Templar might need more change but not on jabs we don't need another aoe that deal *** dmg.
but since i don't play the class so i will not speak too much on it.

@killimandrosb16_ESO do you play on console? If so we can get on sometime and I can prove to you that cloak can evade projectiles because you go invisible and there is no longer a valid target for the ranged or cast time move to land on. I had it happen to me when I used a wrecking blow on my stamsorc so I tried it out myself and have been amazed at what I can dodge and how much damage I can evade by spending my magic pool as a Stam NB lol.

And on dk wings vs magic NB I have said many many many times mag NB needed more non reflectable options especially their finisher as no finisher should be reflectable. So everyone solution is to Nerf a move dk needed bad to combat ranged play as they lack mobility instead of spamming threads here saying they need non reflectable moves. So mag NB didn't get much better this update and in turn dk lost it's wings.

I really don't know what else to say on either skill but hit me up on PS4 is you play there if not test more yourself but I assure you it is very possible to evade a lot of damage and counter back with guarantee crits. It works amazing in pvp battlegrounds.

Xvorg · May 2019

darkblue5 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Counter wings? Any bad magdk could keep heavy attacking and keep wings up 100% of the time. Soul harvest>fear>merciless could work but even trash dks put their wings up after a soul harvest. Not knowing counter play vs a class who has a skill that completely disables a particular class is unhealthy.

But if you think it was wrong of them then wait for the current version of incap to go live and let's see you not complain when the same karma follows you back.

Other than that, yes the pet sorc issue is a huge problem in pvp lol. Shield + pet stacking op!!!

The counter to old wings was to not have your entire build based around ranged reflectable projectiles.

The counter to the new incap's silence is what? Play stamina?

Good thing then magika NB is full of projectiles and rely on LA alot,if you think slotting force pulse or concealed weapon was enough well....
it was not enough

Which the really odd thing, you know?

Because ZOS changed wings, in part due to Magblades complaining about old wings countering most of their toolkit.

And then Incap gets a 3 second hard counter to every magicka build...

?

The incap change is a mistake and they alredy said is going to change so i don't see the problem.

Wing was a problem too and needed a change,i have seen better suggestion on the forum than the one they choose but still.

Wings wasn't a huge problem people never wanted to play against it but we are always told to learn to play against cloak the irony because that is zos baby lol.

As far as wings go there is still another move that prevents "ranged" gameplay and can you guess what move that is? Cloak allows you to completely dodge a ranged move...... Yep fair completely fair because it's on NB of course 😁

Yes, there are no counters to cloak and none of the are getting huge damage buffs next patch. *whistles suspiciously trying to hide a pile of Detect Pots behind her back*

And if you ever played magblade you'd know how hard it is to secure a ranged kill without health desyncs, ganks from horse, etc. Magblade will be more melee than ever next patch too . You too can be invincible at range if you just crouch and not fight. That's why it is called P v (no one) because you'd rather never die.

The counters to wings were mostly melee skills

The counters to cloak are mostly AoEs that work at melee range.

Incap is a melee skill btw.

I usually tell people that they must learn to counter cloak. Now with wings treatment I'm quite tempted to ask for something similar.

DirtyDeeds765 · May 2019

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

Xvorg · May 2019

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

likecats · May 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

Zophix wrote: »

I just want to know why wings is considered unhealthy gameplay when it only reflects projectiles and is targeted for its 100% mitigation of projectiles. It seems pretty simple, don't use projectiles... Meanwhile you can just roll-dodge everything and still get the 100% mitigation on projectiles + almost everything else.

Because there are classes that can not function without projectiles?

Lets put aside the fact that melee magblade is unviable (since stamblade eclipses melee magblade in every way) in wrathstone patch, and consider what they have.

1) Reflectable burst skill
2) Reflectable utility skill (cripple)
3) Reflectable execute

If magblades could slot an alternate ability for these three skills then yes, you would have a point of not using projectiles. But there are no alternatives.

Telling magblades to not use projectiles is like telling a DK to become a ranged caster. So many DKs saying they have nothing to counter people at range. But using their own philosophy of what constitutes as a counter, they're blatantly lying.
Just by slotting destro staff, they have:

1) A ranged spammable (as does melee magblades against wings)
2) A cc (as does melee magblade against wings)
3) Light attacks (as does melee magblade against wings)
4) An ultimate (as does melee magblade against wings)

But despite all of this, you simply can not expect a DK with destro staff to kill anything.

It genuinely seems impossible to explain why 'Just slot force pulse/concealed weapon' argument is ridiculous until it gets turn around on DKs.

P.S: This was a melee magblade scenario, if we switch melee magblade to ranged magblade that does have some use cases, it gets countered even harder by wings.

I have said for a very long time wings aren't the problem it was mag NB. Mag NB should have been reworked so more of it's toolkit isn't reflectable especially the execute.

I agree.
I asked swallow soul to be unreflectable in the forums 7-8 months back, and the DK army refused to even entertain the idea.

I don't get it, magblade is not outperforming in PVP. Comparing mSorc to magblade in a ranged setup, magSorcs get an unreflectable utility skill (curse) an unreflectable execute, and an unreflectable spammable. But still wings are a very potent counter against mSorcs because light attacks are like 30% of your DPS including enchants.

Magblades not getting fixed is very much because of the opposition created by DKs on this forum.

P.S: Yes, magblades can also slot crushing shock, but the class is balanced around getting those HOTs as their defense mechanism. Even then, mSorcs have 2 more skills that are unreflectable so at least give us that while we debate if swallow soul should be reflectable or not.

DirtyDeeds765 · May 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

darkblue5 · May 2019

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

With all that DKs would be best hands down. I think people are really sleeping on the potency of new Wings. Sure if you're in a BG and every opponent is SnB/Two-hander sure take it off but the number of purely ranged abilities it knocks 50% damage off of given the strength of the melee toolkit is just ridiculous.

(Compared to what you'd take already with your existing mitigation... so ~30% mitigation unblocked in CP if you're comparing it to the tool tip damage etc etc. Talking about damage mitigation reasonably and in a way that everyone understands what is being said is hard. Play around with it on PTS and you'll see it mitigates an insane amount of damage. The max 15% mitigation on new Grim Focus is potentially too strong. This is 50% mitigation.)

killingspreeb16_ESO · May 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Counter wings? Any bad magdk could keep heavy attacking and keep wings up 100% of the time. Soul harvest>fear>merciless could work but even trash dks put their wings up after a soul harvest. Not knowing counter play vs a class who has a skill that completely disables a particular class is unhealthy.

But if you think it was wrong of them then wait for the current version of incap to go live and let's see you not complain when the same karma follows you back.

Other than that, yes the pet sorc issue is a huge problem in pvp lol. Shield + pet stacking op!!!

The counter to old wings was to not have your entire build based around ranged reflectable projectiles.

The counter to the new incap's silence is what? Play stamina?

Good thing then magika NB is full of projectiles and rely on LA alot,if you think slotting force pulse or concealed weapon was enough well....
it was not enough

Which the really odd thing, you know?

Because ZOS changed wings, in part due to Magblades complaining about old wings countering most of their toolkit.

And then Incap gets a 3 second hard counter to every magicka build...

?

The incap change is a mistake and they alredy said is going to change so i don't see the problem.

Wing was a problem too and needed a change,i have seen better suggestion on the forum than the one they choose but still.

Wings wasn't a huge problem people never wanted to play against it but we are always told to learn to play against cloak the irony because that is zos baby lol.

As far as wings go there is still another move that prevents "ranged" gameplay and can you guess what move that is? Cloak allows you to completely dodge a ranged move...... Yep fair completely fair because it's on NB of course 😁

Yes, there are no counters to cloak and none of the are getting huge damage buffs next patch. *whistles suspiciously trying to hide a pile of Detect Pots behind her back*

And if you ever played magblade you'd know how hard it is to secure a ranged kill without health desyncs, ganks from horse, etc. Magblade will be more melee than ever next patch too . You too can be invincible at range if you just crouch and not fight. That's why it is called P v (no one) because you'd rather never die.

Let me use snipe and then when someone Snipes me back I just cloak to evade.

You cast dark flare I will cloak to evade damage completely.

You want to wrecking blow let me cloak and evade damage completely and now because I'm close I might as well surprise attack and do high damage and stun you in return.

Insert any ranged move here or cast time watch me cloak and I can counter attack you with a guaranteed crit and a stun!

Yep sounds fair lol. And as far as "detect pots" go you mean I have to give up either time out of my day to farm mats or spend gold buying mats just to stop a NB fully? Yep balance right there. Especially considering it has a short range so if you are far from me using ranged attacks it doesn't work. Now if a detect pot worked at the same range as snipe then come back and talk to me. Also if I didn't have to give up a potion that could be useful for me during a fight as well that would be nice.

Oh how ironic NB just got a free detect pot in their toolkit so if I'm a NB I don't need a detect pot? Yeah seems legit lol all the forum blades are the same and the sad thing is the devs cater to you all and you guys say you still get nerfed legit read the patch notes and see who got nerfed.

Dk lost wings and has to double bar a move. That would be like them saying to get grim focus buff back in the day it would need to be double barred.....

Stamsorc got no buff and had wrecking blow damage nerfed so that's a Nerf to them

Templar lost protection from their ultimate and had dark flare nerfed by 37% and jabs didn't get a damage increase so it is now the weakest aoe as all other aoe moves got buffed to be "brought in line with each other" lol
.
Snares reduction hurt mag warden

Sub assault from Stam warden blockable now

Tank side of NB got butchered and it shouldn't have.

Yet none of those even got considered it was worth making them stronger just saying

I will not talk about cloak too much because it seem you have 0 idea on what youre talking about.
The example you posted are so random that hardly they make any sense.

Detect pot are a choice not a requirement if you think you are forced to use them that's on you.
Mark target will be used only by zergling and last only 5 second,no decent NB will run it in PvP.

Dk lost wing?50% dmg reduction on every projectile is not a nerf,it's a change.
Tell me where are the counter to wing on live?there is a pot that make projectile unreflectable or magelight dispell and suppress wings?
Aoe or any skill that can deal dmg to the dk remove wings?

It's so hard to understand that cloak is not wing or streak?

Stamsorc got few change like the scaling on streak and the "nerf" to WB is not a nerf to stamsorc since is not a stamsorc skill and many people also run with DW as dmg bar not the 2hand.
Stamsorc need some change i agree but since the most complained class are stamina NB and magsorc,this patch was trying to rebalance the NB kit since is too much oriented in single target and mhe at everything else,magsorc is more well rounded and are easier to balance.

Warden is the best smallscale/bg stamina class in the game a nerf is not the end of the world.

Stamina NB in heavy/bleed was OP in PvP and needed some nerf im sure next patch will still be good.

Jab's got a faster animation btw.

Snare needed a nerf,did you read the forum in past month's no one like the snare meta.

NB lost Major fracture,minor endurance and minor berserk,minor maim and a snare in fear and major defile.

I have zero idea how cloak works? Lol why don't you try doing what I said because I do it all the time on my NB and it's very easy to evade attacks it's not.my fault you don't know how to use your own toolkit.

You know that infinite sustain people say exist for do to keep up wings? That is a CP problem so once again we are nerfing a move due to CP because in non CP you run out of wings. And btw to all the nbs saying they can't perma cloak but dk can perma wing you guys realize they are basically the same cost right? Also dk has nothing good to close the gap against ranged users that is why they used wings. Wanna know how you fight wings? Do some light attacks then use your move the light attacks eat up wings 😉

Stamsorc was nerfed when wrecking blow got hit most stamsorc use 2h as they lack class skills lol.

The Nerf to magwarden is pretty big they lack damage compared to a lot of classes and shalks got nerfed for magic users too. This change is the equivalent of taking cloak away from NB because that was all they were good at. I get no one likes snare but they should have received a buff to other things because they are bad in pve and in pvp outside of snares.

Stam NB needed to be nerfed but ruining them in pve is not the answer or way to do it lol. A very experienced player made a post saying things that he didn't want to happen and everything he said not to do zos did and he had a lot of great changes for the class but here we are with forumblades not even understanding how their own class or others work.

Jabs got a faster animation lol Templars need more than that. You can run into the person and stop it just like wrecking blow I'm so glad nbs don't have channeled moves that stand them in place while casting

And as far as you say you lost all those abilities, all of your moves were overloaded and you had many other class options to slot to get them. you lost berserk but got vulnerability. Your low cost ultimate was overloaded by far compared to any other ultimate of similar cost. You guys also gained 15% damage mitigation. Glad you think marked target is so bad. Since it's bad and no one will run it you guys wouldn't care if magelught and camo Hunter mark you as well and let's lower the cost for them too while we are at it 😁

I can tell you i might be not the best player but i know what my NB can do,youre example where so random that hardly i can think you know what cloak can do or not.

the point of this patch for the NB was not to nerf them but to rebalance them and except for the silence i think they did overall a good job.
About Mark target is not that mark target is bad per se but a NB don't have a spot for in on their bar unless they are on the zerg especially after the patch where all the NB buff are moved on other skill or removed like major defile.
mark target will be even too good in a xvs1 situation.

For pve tank NB they just buffed dark cloak again so we will see if they are "ruined".
The extra 15% is great but it need to be stacked and if you fire the bow is lost same if you go out of combat.

if the magika warden after the snare change are really weak they should be buffed but i didn't see any post about warden complaining about it ut i might also have missed them.

About cloak you can evade single target skill but cloak got so many counter in the game that is not even comparable to wing,cloak can be totally negated with the use of one of those counter,you don't need to even slot a specific skill to counter cloak,any class in the game got atleast one skill that work against it.(only warden might have some problem but they can use weapon skill at worst)
BTW Not saying cloak is trash and useless.

About wing the problem was that the DK was able to stay on top of you while also begin immune doing a full rotation on you and if you tried to do some dmg?well you take even more dmg nothing you could do about it.
If i deal dmg to a dk with wings up with force pulse or concealed weapon and im a mageblade nothing change since like 80% of my class kit is negated anyway and i don't have the choice to use magelight dispell and suppress wing for the duration or drink a potion like you can do with cloak.(not even counting AoE that deal dmg and break cloak)
I also said that i have seen better suggestion for wing for example wing reflect only if youre a X meter away from the dk so if youre melee range or really close to the dk you can fight back,this way you could even buff the number of skill that could be reflected by wings since now there is counterplay to it.

Wings where just too good vs some class/build especially mageblade.

Templar might need more change but not on jabs we don't need another aoe that deal *** dmg.
but since i don't play the class so i will not speak too much on it.

@killimandrosb16_ESO do you play on console? If so we can get on sometime and I can prove to you that cloak can evade projectiles because you go invisible and there is no longer a valid target for the ranged or cast time move to land on. I had it happen to me when I used a wrecking blow on my stamsorc so I tried it out myself and have been amazed at what I can dodge and how much damage I can evade by spending my magic pool as a Stam NB lol.

And on dk wings vs magic NB I have said many many many times mag NB needed more non reflectable options especially their finisher as no finisher should be reflectable. So everyone solution is to Nerf a move dk needed bad to combat ranged play as they lack mobility instead of spamming threads here saying they need non reflectable moves. So mag NB didn't get much better this update and in turn dk lost it's wings.

I really don't know what else to say on either skill but hit me up on PS4 is you play there if not test more yourself but I assure you it is very possible to evade a lot of damage and counter back with guarantee crits. It works amazing in pvp battlegrounds.

Im on PC and i know that cloak can evade ranged attack etc i even said it lol.

Cloak can evade a lot of dmg true but can also evade literally 0 dmg that's the point.

Wing needed a form of counterplay even if you made one skill not dodgeable too much of the Magebalde kit was not avaible vs a dk that's why the suggestion i posted here was the best i have seen in the forum,sadly they choose the worse route and changed the skill entirely,i have a sDK aswell and i know it's fun to use wing.

Point is cloak and wing are different like streak is different than cloak yet i see people keep making comparison when is not possible because the way they work.

Wing is either too good or just ok depend on what youre fighting,while cloak is too good only on build that have 0 aoe(or when fighting potato at low mmr bg) and choose to not use detect pot and what class usually play this way?other NB.The other class have tools to deal with cloak in their class kit or weapon skill and more.

I think we said enough on this discussion so im out,we might have just different opinion on the matter.

Xvorg · May 2019

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

It is not 50% reduced damaged on ranged skills is only 50% dmg reduced on projectiles. Pulse will still do 100% dmg, arrow barrage will still do 100% dmg, JB will still do 100% dmg, SA will do 100% dmg.

Reach will CC anyway and the DoT associate will do 100% dmg. Cripple will hit for a 100% dmg (dot), vamps bane first hit will do 50% dmg but the DoT will do 100% dmg. Do I follow?

Being a DK will be a very bad experience.

Xvorg · May 2019

darkblue5 wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

With all that DKs would be best hands down. I think people are really sleeping on the potency of new Wings. Sure if you're in a BG and every opponent is SnB/Two-hander sure take it off but the number of purely ranged abilities it knocks 50% damage off of given the strength of the melee toolkit is just ridiculous.

(Compared to what you'd take already with your existing mitigation... so ~30% mitigation unblocked in CP if you're comparing it to the tool tip damage etc etc. Talking about damage mitigation reasonably and in a way that everyone understands what is being said is hard. Play around with it on PTS and you'll see it mitigates an insane amount of damage. The max 15% mitigation on new Grim Focus is potentially too strong. This is 50% mitigation.)

what? 15 skills?

There are 15 projectiles in the game. Ranged skills are about 40 including Ultis (none of them is refectable), so around 25 skills that are not affected by wings. That's a lot.

DKs have no chance against ranged playstyle. When wings were not used (because they gave nothing besides the reflect) DKs were bad unless you were running S/B, but then ZoS nerfed permablocking.

Now it will be something similar but without permablocking.

The only thing ZoS needed to do was to buff force shock and morphs and let strife go through wings. Nothing else, instead they destroyed a class that took around 3 years to be somewhat competitive again.

DirtyDeeds765 · May 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

It is not 50% reduced damaged on ranged skills is only 50% dmg reduced on projectiles. Pulse will still do 100% dmg, arrow barrage will still do 100% dmg, JB will still do 100% dmg, SA will do 100% dmg.

Reach will CC anyway and the DoT associate will do 100% dmg. Cripple will hit for a 100% dmg (dot), vamps bane first hit will do 50% dmg but the DoT will do 100% dmg. Do I follow?

Being a DK will be a very bad experience.

Well then give the DK a little extra defense somewhere but wings with reflect isn't the answer.

Xvorg · May 2019

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

It is not 50% reduced damaged on ranged skills is only 50% dmg reduced on projectiles. Pulse will still do 100% dmg, arrow barrage will still do 100% dmg, JB will still do 100% dmg, SA will do 100% dmg.

Reach will CC anyway and the DoT associate will do 100% dmg. Cripple will hit for a 100% dmg (dot), vamps bane first hit will do 50% dmg but the DoT will do 100% dmg. Do I follow?

Being a DK will be a very bad experience.

Well then give the DK a little extra defense somewhere but wings with reflect isn't the answer.

No, the answer was a buff to force shock and let strife go through wings. Even cripple could have gone through wings.

You can't even dare to trade ranged dmg with a sorc or a NB because their kit is much, much better suited for pew pew than DKs kit, so if I found a sorc next patch the only thing I can do is to run away... and even that is wrong with DK because it has no way of skipping a fight. Stay and die is the only thing you could do.

Do you know why I say this? I've tried during last month to play my mDK without wings and it is impossible. Even with a high mitigation is hard to do. And whats worst, no ranged projectile kills you, what kills you are the very same skills that go through wings.

DirtyDeeds765 · May 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

It is not 50% reduced damaged on ranged skills is only 50% dmg reduced on projectiles. Pulse will still do 100% dmg, arrow barrage will still do 100% dmg, JB will still do 100% dmg, SA will do 100% dmg.

Reach will CC anyway and the DoT associate will do 100% dmg. Cripple will hit for a 100% dmg (dot), vamps bane first hit will do 50% dmg but the DoT will do 100% dmg. Do I follow?

Being a DK will be a very bad experience.

Well then give the DK a little extra defense somewhere but wings with reflect isn't the answer.

No, the answer was a buff to force shock and let strife go through wings. Even cripple could have gone through wings.

You can't even dare to trade ranged dmg with a sorc or a NB because their kit is much, much better suited for pew pew than DKs kit, so if I found a sorc next patch the only thing I can do is to run away... and even that is wrong with DK because it has no way of skipping a fight. Stay and die is the only thing you could do.

Do you know why I say this? I've tried during last month to play my mDK without wings and it is impossible. Even with a high mitigation is hard to do. And whats worst, no ranged projectile kills you, what kills you are the very same skills that go through wings.

You say that a lack of imagination is the problem and I agree but how is letting some skills go through wings and not others imaginative? That's creating exceptions because the image for the skill isn't sound and balanced enough. You say to buff force shock but why should we HAVE to use a weapon skill instead of our class skills to fight a reflecting DK? If multiple things need to be changed to suit another thing, the problem is the latter. There should not be any skills that make you invulnerable to certain attacks and also throw those attacks back. That's too OP. Imaginative is reworking wings correctly and buffing a passive or an other dk ability to make DKs competitive. I understand that the reflecting wings are a trademark of the DK, and in theory they are amazing and cool, but reflecting wings are not imaginative. I want DKs to be strong, as I want all classes to be strong, but they need to be strong within reason and not broken.

Kidgangster101 · May 2019

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

It is not 50% reduced damaged on ranged skills is only 50% dmg reduced on projectiles. Pulse will still do 100% dmg, arrow barrage will still do 100% dmg, JB will still do 100% dmg, SA will do 100% dmg.

Reach will CC anyway and the DoT associate will do 100% dmg. Cripple will hit for a 100% dmg (dot), vamps bane first hit will do 50% dmg but the DoT will do 100% dmg. Do I follow?

Being a DK will be a very bad experience.

Well then give the DK a little extra defense somewhere but wings with reflect isn't the answer.

No, the answer was a buff to force shock and let strife go through wings. Even cripple could have gone through wings.

You can't even dare to trade ranged dmg with a sorc or a NB because their kit is much, much better suited for pew pew than DKs kit, so if I found a sorc next patch the only thing I can do is to run away... and even that is wrong with DK because it has no way of skipping a fight. Stay and die is the only thing you could do.

Do you know why I say this? I've tried during last month to play my mDK without wings and it is impossible. Even with a high mitigation is hard to do. And whats worst, no ranged projectile kills you, what kills you are the very same skills that go through wings.

You say that a lack of imagination is the problem and I agree but how is letting some skills go through wings and not others imaginative? That's creating exceptions because the image for the skill isn't sound and balanced enough. You say to buff force shock but why should we HAVE to use a weapon skill instead of our class skills to fight a reflecting DK? If multiple things need to be changed to suit another thing, the problem is the latter. There should not be any skills that make you invulnerable to certain attacks and also throw those attacks back. That's too OP. Imaginative is reworking wings correctly and buffing a passive or an other dk ability to make DKs competitive. I understand that the reflecting wings are a trademark of the DK, and in theory they are amazing and cool, but reflecting wings are not imaginative. I want DKs to be strong, as I want all classes to be strong, but they need to be strong within reason and not broken.

So when people are told there is counter play to cloak by equipping moves you don't want to slot it is okay, but telling people to equip certain moves to fight a dk because they have wings is so different right?

I know you will say dk stops certain types of gameplay but NB does as well just saying

DirtyDeeds765 · May 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

It is not 50% reduced damaged on ranged skills is only 50% dmg reduced on projectiles. Pulse will still do 100% dmg, arrow barrage will still do 100% dmg, JB will still do 100% dmg, SA will do 100% dmg.

Reach will CC anyway and the DoT associate will do 100% dmg. Cripple will hit for a 100% dmg (dot), vamps bane first hit will do 50% dmg but the DoT will do 100% dmg. Do I follow?

Being a DK will be a very bad experience.

Well then give the DK a little extra defense somewhere but wings with reflect isn't the answer.

No, the answer was a buff to force shock and let strife go through wings. Even cripple could have gone through wings.

You can't even dare to trade ranged dmg with a sorc or a NB because their kit is much, much better suited for pew pew than DKs kit, so if I found a sorc next patch the only thing I can do is to run away... and even that is wrong with DK because it has no way of skipping a fight. Stay and die is the only thing you could do.

Do you know why I say this? I've tried during last month to play my mDK without wings and it is impossible. Even with a high mitigation is hard to do. And whats worst, no ranged projectile kills you, what kills you are the very same skills that go through wings.

You say that a lack of imagination is the problem and I agree but how is letting some skills go through wings and not others imaginative? That's creating exceptions because the image for the skill isn't sound and balanced enough. You say to buff force shock but why should we HAVE to use a weapon skill instead of our class skills to fight a reflecting DK? If multiple things need to be changed to suit another thing, the problem is the latter. There should not be any skills that make you invulnerable to certain attacks and also throw those attacks back. That's too OP. Imaginative is reworking wings correctly and buffing a passive or an other dk ability to make DKs competitive. I understand that the reflecting wings are a trademark of the DK, and in theory they are amazing and cool, but reflecting wings are not imaginative. I want DKs to be strong, as I want all classes to be strong, but they need to be strong within reason and not broken.

So when people are told there is counter play to cloak by equipping moves you don't want to slot it is okay, but telling people to equip certain moves to fight a dk because they have wings is so different right?

I know you will say dk stops certain types of gameplay but NB does as well just saying

I rarely have see the issues people speak about when they talk about cloak being a problem. Honest. I play magsorc and stamblade and a bit of everything else so cloak never really stops me. I don't think anybody should be forced to slot certain abilities so they can counter a certain class or playstyle. Since we only get 10 abilities, we shouldn't be forced to use 3 slots to counter one class. So I'm with you on that. Whenever I cloak, I feel like I always get pulled out and can never get it to work as OP as some say. I'm just not practiced. But if it really is as OP as some say, then yeah, it should be reworked.

JusticeSouldier · May 2019

i wonder when u focus sorc's pet, then sorc change it's target and Miracle - pet refreshes it's health to 100% and run like a rocket from u...wtf?
or when pet come from 4 secons cc in 1 second, or doing it's special attack in cc...wtf is that? why?
or when hitbox of pet is larger than summoner's and u can't target him for a 10 seconds because u have also scamp and twilight around atronach and sorc... and all they are tanky with one absorbing shield and above described Miracle healing...
I had today battleground with a team with 3 petsorcs and 1 templar... that premade maybe felt like "fun"...
In a global perspective...wtf is that?
why 13 targetboxes with described above mechanics are possible? And atronach's duration is really Eternity...
I don't understand.
Is this "as intended"?

killingspreeb16_ESO · May 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

The thing is, wings reflecting renders a big part of alot of playstyles useless and it doesn't take any skill to use. Pets do not outright allow you to take no damage from projectiles and also don't make you harm yourself if you do use a projectile against them. Wings take no skill, hiding behind pets and kiting and LOS'ing does take a bit of skill, especially if you're fighting multiple people. My twilight for example, usually stays behind me. And is honestly weak if focused. The change of it not reflecting and you taking 50 percent less damage from projectiles is better, but still kinda OP. But I'm willing to accept that bc my twilight is OP too. All classes should have OP things about them.

TLDR
Unhealthy gameplay is rendering big parts of playstyles useless, not something being hard to fight against.

DK playstyle is mostly useless without wings. No major expedition (except on gap closer :facepalm:) No reliable gap closer (*** by X axis), no passive that helps ranged playstyle. The only way to play it is S/B permablocker.

The only way you were able to do dmg while closing the gap against a ranged build were wings, now that's gone and you must permablock al your way to the ranged guy, who can dodge roll and get mayor exp/streak away/cloak away

Dk will become the lamest class next patch just for the sake of "some" builds...

I don't want DK to be lame or weak. Nobody should. Cheapen wings, keep the 50 percent damage reduction from ranged, and throw it major expedition for 4 secs. Now the playstyle is competitive. My only point is that abilities shouldn't absolutely carry defensively and offensively, especially with NO skill involved.

It is not 50% reduced damaged on ranged skills is only 50% dmg reduced on projectiles. Pulse will still do 100% dmg, arrow barrage will still do 100% dmg, JB will still do 100% dmg, SA will do 100% dmg.

Reach will CC anyway and the DoT associate will do 100% dmg. Cripple will hit for a 100% dmg (dot), vamps bane first hit will do 50% dmg but the DoT will do 100% dmg. Do I follow?

Being a DK will be a very bad experience.

Well then give the DK a little extra defense somewhere but wings with reflect isn't the answer.

No, the answer was a buff to force shock and let strife go through wings. Even cripple could have gone through wings.

You can't even dare to trade ranged dmg with a sorc or a NB because their kit is much, much better suited for pew pew than DKs kit, so if I found a sorc next patch the only thing I can do is to run away... and even that is wrong with DK because it has no way of skipping a fight. Stay and die is the only thing you could do.

Do you know why I say this? I've tried during last month to play my mDK without wings and it is impossible. Even with a high mitigation is hard to do. And whats worst, no ranged projectile kills you, what kills you are the very same skills that go through wings.

You say that a lack of imagination is the problem and I agree but how is letting some skills go through wings and not others imaginative? That's creating exceptions because the image for the skill isn't sound and balanced enough. You say to buff force shock but why should we HAVE to use a weapon skill instead of our class skills to fight a reflecting DK? If multiple things need to be changed to suit another thing, the problem is the latter. There should not be any skills that make you invulnerable to certain attacks and also throw those attacks back. That's too OP. Imaginative is reworking wings correctly and buffing a passive or an other dk ability to make DKs competitive. I understand that the reflecting wings are a trademark of the DK, and in theory they are amazing and cool, but reflecting wings are not imaginative. I want DKs to be strong, as I want all classes to be strong, but they need to be strong within reason and not broken.

So when people are told there is counter play to cloak by equipping moves you don't want to slot it is okay, but telling people to equip certain moves to fight a dk because they have wings is so different right?

I know you will say dk stops certain types of gameplay but NB does as well just saying

I know i said i was out but one last thing since this is incorrect.

It's a bit different if you had to slot magelight,expert hunter and revealing flare because they where the only skill to work against cloak then you would have a point.

But for example since spiked armor(and other class skill) work and is a skill used by everyone so you don't have to slot a specific skill.
I said it before but you can't compare the two.
What gameplay cloak stop?full single target?then you still have choice with detect potion.
Ranged build did not have option.

If slotting force pulse and damaging the dk with it was "breaking" wing and the dk had to recast it like you have to with cloak the story would have been different.

I don't want to start a new discussion on it but the ability are different you can't compare the two atlest if you ignore that one can be totally nullified the other not.
Keeping ignoring this fact make your argument too biased to be taken seriously.