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Legislation Introduced in the USA to Ban Loot Boxes & Pay to Win Microtransactions
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Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »I can't believe people are actually defending the inclusion of manipulative, casino-like monetization in computer games. Just shows how easily the gormless can be led by the nose.
Actually for many of us it's less about defending loot boxes and more about keeping politicians from getting their grubby little claws into it.
Yeah. Politicians running in to save us usually indicates that things are about to get way worse.
It's not saving "us". Don't include whales into "us". We don't want to be included, thank you.
Tough luck. They're going to include you anyway whether you like it or not. "Whales" are just the poster children."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Asha_11_ESO✭✭✭DirkRavenclaw wrote: »Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for
Or you know, just offer everything available in the loot crates, to buy for crowns, at set prices.
If they can put up mansions which cost 10,000+ crown, they could very well do the same for radiant mounts, and so on for everything else available.3 -
WolfingHour✭✭✭✭NordSwordnBoard wrote: »Be sure to stop at your local supermarket/mall on the way to Bethesda with your pitchforks and torches!
"I spent $9.50 to get the apex item purdy gums that's tantalizing me from the display. Now I can't afford lunch, my gums ain't purdy, and instead of blaming myself I'll call my senator. Something must be done, this is outrageous."
The fake example above would actually get more sympathy if it involved an actual child. You don't even need a subscription or to pre-purchase anything for a chance to win purdy gums at the market for a quarters.
I can't find the user's name, but a Belgian player told us they could still buy crates. If anything, the naivete' is hilarious.
Those machines are horrible. However, the discussion is not gambling at large but in the context of videogames. More specifically, why do we have a set of rules for one medium, and a different or next to no set of rules for same thing in a different medium.
Lastly, re: your Belgian example, lack of enforcement or avoidance of detection shouldn't be the basis to fold your arms and not do anything. Laws exist to regulate society at large but also ourselves if and when necessary.0 -
MajBludd✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Big government. It's called self control. If people weren't so gullible they could abstain from buying loot boxes, etc.
We, as gamers, decide what is and isn't allowed with our wallets.
Learn some self control and don't let big government decide what is and isn't allowed in games.4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »I can't believe people are actually defending the inclusion of manipulative, casino-like monetization in computer games. Just shows how easily the gormless can be led by the nose.
Actually for many of us it's less about defending loot boxes and more about keeping politicians from getting their grubby little claws into it.
Yeah. Politicians running in to save us usually indicates that things are about to get way worse.
It's not saving "us". Don't include whales into "us". We don't want to be included, thank you.
The "us" is fairly generic. It means the whole ESO community, actually. Players. Devs. Everyone. It is a play on the phrase: The nine most terrifying words in the English language are "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."
The government, who really has no interest in games and gaming, comes into the field and starts to pass around demands on how things are done. Everyone is affected. Us. The government never leaves, either. In the long run, none of us really gets a guarantee that there will be an overall benefit, but we will all pay the price.
I appreciate that he is bringing attention to loot boxes. This is an area of the gaming industry where studio self-control is often replaced with studio greed and the willingness to push the boundaries and see where it takes them. ZOS may not be the worst, but Bethesda is pushing the envelope with a little too much glee for my tastes. Bethesda has a tendency to push out, then walk back, monetization. That tells me that they have a poor "compass" in place to guide them.
As I see it... The best way to stop escalation of loot boxes in games is for the gaming industry, at least part of it, to step up and set limits for themselves, and then comply with it. That does require that they be concerned about an increasing number of governments with different, potentially conflicting, rules and regulations, among other things. I suspect they are not all that concerned.
In any case, if there is any legislation in the US, I doubt that it will be much of an issue for ESO and Crown Crates.Edited by Elsonso on May 10, 2019 11:13AMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
sevomd69✭✭✭✭✭
✭LOL...Nothing...Will...Change...That...Is...All...
The catastrophizing in this thread is as OP as the new changes to Incap....Edited by sevomd69 on May 10, 2019 12:36PM0 -
Inoki✭✭✭✭DirkRavenclaw wrote: »Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for
I think most of us pay for ESO+ regardless. I know I don't play the game without it.☁️ Cloud gamer via NVIDIA GeForce NOW
Used to game on Mac until we got the 🖕🏻3 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm just trying to think of how you could possibly ensure a child does not play ESO (or any M rated game for that matter). We can't stop people from getting guns and drugs irl; you expect me to believe we can, let alone should stop kids playing M rated games?
I hate to sound so paranoid, but considering the source of the legislation I know what's coming next.
"Games that knowingly peddle VIOLENCE to children..."
"Games that knowingly peddle LEWD CONTENT to children..."
Don't forget the railing against GTA, Doom, and Call of Duty. It wasn't all too long ago...1 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭lordrichter wrote: »As I see it... The best way to stop escalation of loot boxes in games is for the gaming industry, at least part of it, to step up and set limits for themselves, and then comply with it. That does require that they be concerned about an increasing number of governments with different, potentially conflicting, rules and regulations, among other things. I suspect they are not all that concerned.
In all seriousness, given the trends that we have seen over the last decade or so, do you think that the gaming industry is actually going to do this?
Does anyone have an example of an industry that, in the absence of government intervention, has self-regulated in such a way as to reduce its own profits? I'd honestly love to hear about one, because I've been wracking my brain for most of the the last 5 minutes... and I can't think of one.
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Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DirkRavenclaw wrote: »Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for
I think most of us pay for ESO+ regardless. I know I don't play the game without it.
Would be funny if they brought back the loyalty rewards as well if it did go sub based again1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Since this is legislation in the US. I'm going to point out that the ESRB rating is irrelevant. That is an industry standard that has absolute no legal authority. In fact all forms of government in the US (Federal, State, County, Local, and UCMJ) are prohibited from making any law or regulation that doesn't allow minors to purchase any video game by a SCOTUS decision.
ESO would be hit by this law regardless of any changes to packaging or whatever ZOS does. The exemptions are for video games you find in casinos, cruise ships, and pornographic shops. Any mainstream gaming service such as things on Steam, sold by normal retailers, or on generalized websites would be subject.
For ESO to not be affected, ZOS would need to remove it from Steam, cease selling on consoles, and stop its website based shop and offer physical copies in adult only locations. That will never happen.
I'm not convinced by your conclusions.
Laws restricting purchasing and ESRB doesn't matter. So long as the person making the game gets confirmation of age before allowing someone to play, why would it be any different than an adult website checking age? *** is available on the Internet. They can only restrict access based on information you supply.
Why would ZOS need to remove the game from Steam? Steam could just add their own age gate and it is up to customers to tell the truth. Or, ZOS will just have to enforce the age barrier when setting up account and offer refunds for the underage purchasers when they can't pass the age check.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, but most gamers don't see sports games as real games.rfennell_ESO wrote: »ZOS has really done "crowns" the right way and kept it mostly unneeded for play stuff.
Take a look at EA games and there level of pay for stuff immersion. It's far FAR worse.
Well yeah. They're the ones that got us into this mess in the first place. A lot of people blame Overwatch, which has always had one of the least destructive models of loot boxes out there. But the fact is EA has been doing the p2(random chance to)w thing for years. Long before Overwatch was even an idea scribbled on a napkin.
Wanna play a certain character? Well you'd better buy some loot boxes. Oh, you wanna level up that character too? You know what to do. Buy more loot boxes for every level. And don't forget to buy more loot boxes to get better weapons, and even more loot boxes to level up those weapons. Also you'll need some loot boxes for your consumable items.
Then did EA started with P2W or lootboxes in them?
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »Why would ZOS need to remove the game from Steam? Steam could just add their own age gate and it is up to customers to tell the truth. Or, ZOS will just have to enforce the age barrier when setting up account and offer refunds for the underage purchasers when they can't pass the age check.
Because the federal laws don't see the customer as hopefully telling the truth to be enough. This is why liquor sales, tobacco sales, gambling, and other adult restricted activities require photo ID.
How does Steam or ZOS's website do that? More importantly why should Steam bother when a simple patch to the games to remove loot crates would be preferred?
Now an alternative, and I'm not sure if it follows the letter of the legislation, but it could be viable is purchase of loot crates could require a card with a code. Those cards could be sold in places that could require the ID. Depends on how bad companies want to keep the model. But it would also be subject to local laws in that case. Its real close to being a lottery, and many states may not want competition.0 -
Coolits✭✭✭It can't come soon enough, and the decision makers themselves should be held to account for exploitative mechanics they knowingly add to their games.1 -
Ixilith✭✭✭How much revenue is needed to keep a game online? There was a time when loot boxes were not a thing, it was around the time when the subscription model was the norm. People that hate loot boxes might be less pleased with the replacement.
During these times MMORPGs were fewer and less diverse, when there’s only 2 MMORPGs to choose from realistically each mmorpg has a much higher pool of players.
In a super high populated mmorpg a subscription model is all that’s needed, enough players are paying to bring it massive profits.
In today’s mmorpgs reaching 1 million is considered huge, therefore micro transactions fix the fact the population in the mmorpg industry have shrank not to mention the quantity of other MMORPGs competing has multiplied.0 -
Ixilith✭✭✭DirkRavenclaw wrote: »Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for
No they won't
Read the legislation. It will have absolutly 0 impact on ESO.
Actually this directly follows the part you are talking about"as well as those for broader audiences where developers are aware that kids are making in-game purchases. Along with outlawing loot boxes, these video games also would be banned from offering “pay to win” schemes, where players must spend money to access additional content or gain digital advantages over rival players."
So yes this would mean Crown crates and possibly new more powerful classes who have designed advantages.
Edit: quote from The Washington Post article.
No it wouldn’t.
ESO is a established and regulated game for players over the age of 18+ if Zos knew someone was under the age they hold the ability to ban them.
None of these things would change eso in any way, because they simply aren’t directed at a game such as ESO.
They are not knowingly selling products to children. This is parents putting their children on games too old for them and lying to Zos.
Zos ain’t gonna drop to these guidelines they legally don’t have to, because the game isn’t knowingly being sold to people under the age of 18. You physically can’t buy the game without being 18 or lying about your age and the moment you lie they aren’t knowingly selling you a product,
And I don’t really know what your talking from with “design advantages” sorcs and nightblades are still considered among the best classes and both of them are free with the base game
Edited by Ixilith on June 24, 2019 1:24PM1 -
CMDR_Un1k0rn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Big government. It's called self control. If people weren't so gullible they could abstain from buying loot boxes, etc.
We, as gamers, decide what is and isn't allowed with our wallets.
Learn some self control and don't let big government decide what is and isn't allowed in games.
Sadly, most people are too inept to be able to make decisions for themselves, it seems.
BTW guys, if loot crates do by chance get removed, that does not necessarily mean all those sweet sweet radiant apex mounts are gonna' be added to the store.
ZOS could just as easily say that "We will not be selling those products again."
Until it happens, we won't know, of course, but the grass is not always greener on the other side. It's often just as drab, or even darker.In-game username: Un1korn | Happy member of the PCNA UESP guild (Resident Daggerfall Covenant enjoyer) | Main & basically only character: Crucian Vulpin, Imperial Dragonknight of the Daggerfall Covenant, and Undaunted Bulwark (I tank) | Mountain bike enjoyer and vulpine appreciator | If you know me from PCEU: No | To ZOS: THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME BRING MY HORSE INTO BATTLE!0 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
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But.....EA doesn't have loot boxes.....
https://kotaku.com/ea-our-loot-boxes-are-actually-surprise-mechanics-that-1835662012
:feigned look of shock: [also sarcasm]
Oh that is just wonderful!
I would love to have been in the meeting when they came up with that 😆😆0 -
Lady_Rosabella✭✭✭✭✭DirkRavenclaw wrote: »Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for
No they won't
Read the legislation. It will have absolutly 0 impact on ESO.
Actually this directly follows the part you are talking about"as well as those for broader audiences where developers are aware that kids are making in-game purchases. Along with outlawing loot boxes, these video games also would be banned from offering “pay to win” schemes, where players must spend money to access additional content or gain digital advantages over rival players."
So yes this would mean Crown crates and possibly new more powerful classes who have designed advantages.
Edit: quote from The Washington Post article.
No it wouldn’t.
ESO is a established and regulated game for players over the age of 18+ if Zos knew someone was under the age they hold the ability to ban them.
None of these things would change eso in any way, because they simply aren’t directed at a game such as ESO.
They are not knowingly selling products to children. This is parents putting their children on games too old for them and lying to Zos.
Zos ain’t gonna drop to these guidelines they legally don’t have to, because the game isn’t knowingly being sold to people under the age of 18. You physically can’t buy the game without being 18 or lying about your age and the moment you lie they aren’t knowingly selling you a product,
And I don’t really know what your talking from with “design advantages” sorcs and nightblades are still considered among the best classes and both of them are free with the base game
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