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Class Rebalance Audit
Jabbs_Giggity
✭✭✭✭✭
So, this patch is supposed to be about auditing Class Active Skills and Weapon Skills to reduce redundancies across similar skills - Aside from everything coming with the Elsweyr Chapter.
Based on majority of the PTS feedbacks, this "Audit" is not going so well. Let's gather the information and list it all out of major role definements that have been suggested and/or not addressed. You can make your conclusions from there, or as always add to the list!
In all honesty, having the same effects on multiple skills is not redundant. It gives more build diversity than forcing players to use specific skills to get buffs/debuffs. We don't want all of our bar setups to be exactly the same. It is predictable, not competitive.
I will be updating, at a later time, the post to include Class Pain Points in from their respective threads in Red, if not already redundant with listed bullet points.
Sorcerers
Nightblades
Dragonknight
Templar
Warden
Necromancer
Edited by Jabbs_Giggity on May 10, 2019 12:27AM Based on majority of the PTS feedbacks, this "Audit" is not going so well. Let's gather the information and list it all out of major role definements that have been suggested and/or not addressed. You can make your conclusions from there, or as always add to the list!
In all honesty, having the same effects on multiple skills is not redundant. It gives more build diversity than forcing players to use specific skills to get buffs/debuffs. We don't want all of our bar setups to be exactly the same. It is predictable, not competitive.
I will be updating, at a later time, the post to include Class Pain Points in from their respective threads in Red, if not already redundant with listed bullet points.
Sorcerers
- Magicka versions seem Okay, most focus has been shifted towards Stamina versions of the Class - Not addressed.
- Stamina spammable - not addressed.
- Stamina sustain - not addressed.
- Stamina Passives - not addressed.
Nightblades
- Veiled Strike - should have simply been moved to Assassination Tree and left alone.
- Blur - should have been moved to Shadow Tree (To compensate Veiled Strike above).
- Mark Target - removing Major Fracture from Surprise Attack should have warranted this skill being able to cast on multiple enemies - Like PotL.
- Grim Focus - should have been left alone, or toned down damage.
- Incap - Should have only removed the Stun to balance it. Compensate the Major Defile redundancy on the next point.
- Mass Hysteria - should have toned down Defile to Minor > Good change on the Root option versus the "running away"
- Magicka versions should have been addressed - not addressed.
- Cripple - fairly balanced. Remove the Snare and skill is fine > can only affect one opponent is fair. Has this been tested? Do all effects of skill purge from target if new target is affected?
Dragonknight
- Magicka versions seem Okay, most focus has been shifted towards Stamina versions of the Class - Not addressed.
- Stamina spammable - not addressed.
- Stamina and Magicka sustain - not addressed.
- Stamina Passives - not addressed.
- Reflective Scales - Should have toned down the reflected projectiles to 2 from 4 (considering they are at a 20% damage increase), but reduce incoming projectiles 40% for duration.
Templar
- Missed so many opportunities to audit...
- Dark Flare - 0.1s channel reduction did not warrant 37% reduction.
- Puncturing Strikes - Templar threads have been flooded with evidence of poor performance across the board on this skill due to lack of identity and multiple reduction factors for damage output. This is one skill that should have thoroughly been reviewed and audited.
- Empowering Sweep - removal of Major Protection is unwaranted for a Physical skill. There are plenty of skills to go around that have both damage/defense abilities that were not addressed in comparison to this. Yes Major Protection is on Rememberence, but different application for different situation > a great tool that negates (Silence! See what I did there
) the need to reduce redundancies. - Stamina and Magicka sustain - not addressed.
- Stamina Passives - not addressed.
Warden
- I am still gathering feedback, list is incomplete.
- Ice Mage identity - not addressed.
- Audit to Winter's Embrace line for more frost damage abilities - not addressed.
Necromancer
- I cannot, in good conscience, comment on this Class as I do not have the knowledge comprehension to fully address. Nor do I have access to PTS.
19
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BaylorCorvette✭✭✭✭✭I see all the major changes to DK and NB and then look at my (main) StamSorc and just wonder wtf, lol.Supreme Leader Corvette - StamSorc
Founder of Dominion Special Forces
YouTube - ESO & Automotive Racing
DC Zerg Busting5 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual5 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.
I got lazy too...didn't even do the Weapon Skill Lines.
If there were ever a more perfect opportunity to introduce a Melee Magic-based Weapon Line, it would have been this Chapter...
I will continue to try an update the OP bullet points with feedback from those who are objective in their respected specialized Class.
I do not want this thread to become toxic and negative or argumentative. I wrote it because I think it needed to be summarized for all to keep tabs on current progress, as the Patch Notes don't really highlight the meaning of changes...0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.
I got lazy too...didn't even do the Weapon Skill Lines.
If there were ever a more perfect opportunity to introduce a Melee Magic-based Weapon Line, it would have been this Chapter...
I will continue to try an update the OP bullet points with feedback from those who are objective in their respected specialized Class.
I do not want this thread to become toxic and negative or argumentative. I wrote it because I think it needed to be summarized for all to keep tabs on current progress, as the Patch Notes don't really highlight the meaning of changes...
yea please update because the magplar section had more issues too (what cinbri reported).Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭A lot of people seem to have a misconception about what the audit is supposed to be. It's mostly numbers tweaks, and a few changes to specific skills that they believe are significantly over or under performing. The goal is to get all abilities of a certain type to function relatively similar at a base level. They will be doing the same thing to non class actives next, and then all passives. If you are looking for actual changes to classes they are unlikely to come for another three patches, as the rest of the actives, and passives will probably each be on separate updates.5 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.
I got lazy too...didn't even do the Weapon Skill Lines.
If there were ever a more perfect opportunity to introduce a Melee Magic-based Weapon Line, it would have been this Chapter...
I will continue to try an update the OP bullet points with feedback from those who are objective in their respected specialized Class.
I do not want this thread to become toxic and negative or argumentative. I wrote it because I think it needed to be summarized for all to keep tabs on current progress, as the Patch Notes don't really highlight the meaning of changes...
yea please update because the magplar section had more issues too (what cinbri reported).
If @Cinbri can resend me his findings I will update the Templar section with them as well. I am too lazy to go searching again.
I could have been so much harsher on Templar, but I tried to be objective and not biased for any of the classes...Edited by Jabbs_Giggity on May 9, 2019 8:02PM0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What it tells me is I, as well as most stamplars I know are put off by loss of protection on empowering sweep. We need to scream and throw tempertantrums like StamNBs and Magsorcs but we don't have the population so we really need to throw a tantrum as that gets responses and adjustments.0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh they just wiggled meta. The dk buff was simply buff a weak dot and since they had new code the said just slap the empower from the necro on the dk. What skill? I don't know whip is the only burst... What about SDK... Guh uh slap some weapon damage on it.
Gilliam himself hated the stealth mechanic in PvP. His words. That's why he played brawlerblade. That's why they are getting mitagation. It's all too easy to predict. Look he complained about the Jesus beam length and looked what changed.
Rewatch his vids to see future patch ideas...
Really should have hired alcast. He plays meta, he likes most classes.-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....5 -
rafaelcsmaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭A lot of people seem to have a misconception about what the audit is supposed to be. It's mostly numbers tweaks, and a few changes to specific skills that they believe are significantly over or under performing. The goal is to get all abilities of a certain type to function relatively similar at a base level. They will be doing the same thing to non class actives next, and then all passives. If you are looking for actual changes to classes they are unlikely to come for another three patches, as the rest of the actives, and passives will probably each be on separate updates.
Honestly, I think its ZOS that have a misconception, the major changes to incap, wings, grim focus and lotus fan show us that this patch is indeed, a major changes patch.2 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A lot of people seem to have a misconception about what the audit is supposed to be. It's mostly numbers tweaks, and a few changes to specific skills that they believe are significantly over or under performing. The goal is to get all abilities of a certain type to function relatively similar at a base level. They will be doing the same thing to non class actives next, and then all passives. If you are looking for actual changes to classes they are unlikely to come for another three patches, as the rest of the actives, and passives will probably each be on separate updates.
while true, they did make design intent changes, and some abilities with similar concepts are WAY off on numbers compared to other skills.
Like radiant ward range wasnt increased to match other AOE changes this PTS as an example.
It was a messy audit IMHO with HUGH design changes for NB.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭A lot of people seem to have a misconception about what the audit is supposed to be. It's mostly numbers tweaks, and a few changes to specific skills that they believe are significantly over or under performing. The goal is to get all abilities of a certain type to function relatively similar at a base level. They will be doing the same thing to non class actives next, and then all passives. If you are looking for actual changes to classes they are unlikely to come for another three patches, as the rest of the actives, and passives will probably each be on separate updates.
^^^
ZOS got bogged down in NB changes true. But 5.0.0 shows that this was the intended direction plus PVE nightblade nerfs, PvP Dark Cloak nerf, and PvP stamblade nerfs. Those changes required other changes (e.g. Minor Vulnerability on gap closer) and so it got messy.0 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »A lot of people seem to have a misconception about what the audit is supposed to be. It's mostly numbers tweaks, and a few changes to specific skills that they believe are significantly over or under performing. The goal is to get all abilities of a certain type to function relatively similar at a base level. They will be doing the same thing to non class actives next, and then all passives. If you are looking for actual changes to classes they are unlikely to come for another three patches, as the rest of the actives, and passives will probably each be on separate updates.
Honestly, I think its ZOS that have a misconception, the major changes to incap, wings, grim focus and lotus fan show us that this patch is indeed, a major changes patch.
Those would be the few skills that are significantly under or over performing.0 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love the idea of swapping Veiled Strike and Blur, both of which make SOOO much more sense in the other tree. They wouldn't just fit the skill line themes better, but both would get more appropriate passives, too.
Same with Templar Sun Shield (which should be in Dawn's Wrath) and Eclipse (which is so mechanically flawed it should just be reworked entirely to make a spear-based thorns ability).Edited by Gnortranermara on May 9, 2019 7:32PM1 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭What it tells me is I, as well as most stamplars I know are put off by loss of protection on empowering sweep. We need to scream and throw tempertantrums like StamNBs and Magsorcs but we don't have the population so we really need to throw a tantrum as that gets responses and adjustments.
Yeah, even if you look at the Class Rep Templar thread it's always the same people posting (Like 4 or 5)0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭A lot of people seem to have a misconception about what the audit is supposed to be. It's mostly numbers tweaks, and a few changes to specific skills that they believe are significantly over or under performing. The goal is to get all abilities of a certain type to function relatively similar at a base level. They will be doing the same thing to non class actives next, and then all passives. If you are looking for actual changes to classes they are unlikely to come for another three patches, as the rest of the actives, and passives will probably each be on separate updates.
I know, that is what was stated by Gina. However, simplifying all class skills into similar numbers based on type doesn't really identify classes from one another, it just further inhibits diverse playstyles and unique builds > Which is what ZOS has been slowly moving towards.
However, there are a lot of aspects between classes that are failing to get addressed. An example is how ZOS prepared the Necromancer (and somewhat the Wardens) for diverse builds between Stamina or Magicka focus. Homogenizing class skills should have allowed for original class templates to become updated with new class templates.0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.
I got lazy too...didn't even do the Weapon Skill Lines.
If there were ever a more perfect opportunity to introduce a Melee Magic-based Weapon Line, it would have been this Chapter...
I will continue to try an update the OP bullet points with feedback from those who are objective in their respected specialized Class.
I do not want this thread to become toxic and negative or argumentative. I wrote it because I think it needed to be summarized for all to keep tabs on current progress, as the Patch Notes don't really highlight the meaning of changes...
yea please update because the magplar section had more issues too (what cinbri reported).
If @Cinbri can resend me her findings I will update the Templar section with them as well. I am too lazy to go searching again.
I could have been so much harsher on Templar, but I tried to be objective and not biased for any of the classes...
I not "she". Next week changes will show us if zos even know that there is more classes in this game than nightblades or sorcs.3 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Canned_Apples wrote: »Warden.
I know, I'm sorry! If you have feedback on the Warden I will gladly update the Warden section.0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.
I got lazy too...didn't even do the Weapon Skill Lines.
If there were ever a more perfect opportunity to introduce a Melee Magic-based Weapon Line, it would have been this Chapter...
I will continue to try an update the OP bullet points with feedback from those who are objective in their respected specialized Class.
I do not want this thread to become toxic and negative or argumentative. I wrote it because I think it needed to be summarized for all to keep tabs on current progress, as the Patch Notes don't really highlight the meaning of changes...
yea please update because the magplar section had more issues too (what cinbri reported).
If @Cinbri can resend me her findings I will update the Templar section with them as well. I am too lazy to go searching again.
I could have been so much harsher on Templar, but I tried to be objective and not biased for any of the classes...
I not "she". Next week changes will show us if zos even know that there is more classes in this game than nightblades or sorcs.
Updated! Sorry! And yes, I am eager to see next week's Natch Potes.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.
I got lazy too...didn't even do the Weapon Skill Lines.
If there were ever a more perfect opportunity to introduce a Melee Magic-based Weapon Line, it would have been this Chapter...
I will continue to try an update the OP bullet points with feedback from those who are objective in their respected specialized Class.
I do not want this thread to become toxic and negative or argumentative. I wrote it because I think it needed to be summarized for all to keep tabs on current progress, as the Patch Notes don't really highlight the meaning of changes...
yea please update because the magplar section had more issues too (what cinbri reported).
If @Cinbri can resend me her findings I will update the Templar section with them as well. I am too lazy to go searching again.
I could have been so much harsher on Templar, but I tried to be objective and not biased for any of the classes...
I not "she". Next week changes will show us if zos even know that there is more classes in this game than nightblades or sorcs.
Updated! Sorry! And yes, I am eager to see next week's Natch Potes.
I blame joy for this one lolMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »THANK YOU FOR THIS!
I wanted to write that up but got lazy haha.
Agree 100%. The audit was more or less an exercise on making necro attractive.
I got lazy too...didn't even do the Weapon Skill Lines.
If there were ever a more perfect opportunity to introduce a Melee Magic-based Weapon Line, it would have been this Chapter...
I will continue to try an update the OP bullet points with feedback from those who are objective in their respected specialized Class.
I do not want this thread to become toxic and negative or argumentative. I wrote it because I think it needed to be summarized for all to keep tabs on current progress, as the Patch Notes don't really highlight the meaning of changes...
yea please update because the magplar section had more issues too (what cinbri reported).
If @Cinbri can resend me her findings I will update the Templar section with them as well. I am too lazy to go searching again.
I could have been so much harsher on Templar, but I tried to be objective and not biased for any of the classes...
I not "she". Next week changes will show us if zos even know that there is more classes in this game than nightblades or sorcs.
Updated! Sorry! And yes, I am eager to see next week's Natch Potes.
I blame joy for this one lol
Yup, I remember the comment Cibri > she LOL0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd be surprised to be changes next week. Its last week testing only probably1 -
UppGRAYxDD✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm waiting for " We've reduced the healing done by BoL and HtD by 37%, but increased the animation speed by .1 seconds because now you can cast it faster in parses
"Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."2 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭UppGRAYxDD wrote: »I'm waiting for " We've reduced the healing done by BoL and HtD by 37%, but increased the animation speed by .1 seconds because now you can cast it faster in parses
Don't forget increased the cost by 23% as well because heal-bots are not wanted either.0 -
Rygonix✭✭✭✭✭yup templar on short-end for another 4 months lol.
For the love of all that is Holy, stop giving them ideas Please :'(UppGRAYxDD wrote: »I'm waiting for " We've reduced the healing done by BoL and HtD by 37%, but increased the animation speed by .1 seconds because now you can cast it faster in parses
Edited by Rygonix on May 9, 2019 8:37PMCeres Des Mortem-Dark Elf Templar, EP
PC-NA0 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭guys
"consistency"
the new meme word for zenimax is no longer "soon"....
it shall be forever more:
"consistency"
note: don't forget to do the bunny ears quotations with your fingers every time you type it...
"consistency" common lets make this a thing4 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭But for real peoples! I don't main ALL characters and would like some general feedback to keep this OP updated and "Track" the progress the devs are making.
We have tried the Class Rep route, and unfortunately it is a .0001% of the ESO consumer population trying to advocate for us with little success (Not to their fault).
Perhaps if we can actively track the progress the Devs are making/suggesting for positive change, we can at the very least hold them accountable to their actions.0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yo @Jabbs_Giggity , I'm well versed in warden notes. I can give them:
Focus on Magden at the moment:
Major:
-Both pve DDs offer very little utility in pve.
-Magden is worse than stamden when it comes to damage numbers and is still one of the worst magicka classes.
-Magden has a severe lack of class damage skills and the ones that do exist are mostly raw damage with little utility to offer.
-Community wishes to be "ice mages"
Additionally, a whole bunch of reworks to winters embrace makes the most sense to implement the damage skills we need
- Class stun is absolutely horrible and will need several buffs
Minor:
-Warden tanks want old arctic blast back
-Wardens want animal companion's skill skins to make weird region specific animals have more variety.
- Magdens want a smaller non-bear execute
PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Frostingale
Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/eso_nightingale1
