Legislation Introduced in the USA to Ban Loot Boxes & Pay to Win Microtransactions

Imperial_Voice · May 2019

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for

Thats exactly what i wish for

Tyralbin · May 2019

What people are missing here is that the ESRB game ratings are a voluntary code. Game ratings are not yet enforceable under the law.

I cannot ever see it being made law either it is too hard to police. Unlike shops, bars and cinemas were you can actually send people to check whether laws are being adhered too.

This is why laws are being passed on how games are run as a business. Easier to police a business model than a user of the business.

Until a case is won against a company in regards to age restriction no law will exist and the costs to prove this case would be huge. That is why it hasn't happened yet.

The downside to banning things though is that companies find it easier and more cost effective just to pull out of the region enforcing the ban.

rfennell_ESO · May 2019

UrQuan wrote: »

Other countries have taken steps against loot boxes (some banning them outright, and others taking softer approaches), and now a bill is being introduced in the USA as well to address them:
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-introduce-legislation-banning-manipulative-video-game-features-aimed-children
I don't expect this will really impact ESO much, as last I checked ESO is rated 18+, and when it comes to loot boxes the bill seems to be aimed at protecting minors, but if the bill passes they may need to put some additional controls in place to prevent kids playing with their parents' permission from buying crown crates.

I was particularly interested to read about the part of the bill aimed at pay to win microtransactions, but I don't think that piece would have much of an impact on ESO either, aside from giving ZOS a legal incentive to not push the envelope with convenience items and be extra careful about possibly crossing from convenience to pay to win.

The problem with legislation like this is that when you draw a line somewhere in the sand, you make everything not over the line legal and protected.

At a certain point you have to just let people be stupid. If gambling is such an evil thing, why is it legal in some form everywhere in the USA (and expanding)? Personally I think gambling, in general, is foolish... but they opened the gates to hell when they brought it into legality claiming it would pay for the roads, the schools and what not (obviously that didn't work, did it?).

SantieClaws · May 2019

This one does not think this law will pass.

However the tide ever so slightly begins to turn with each attempt that is made to regulate just because the issue is publicly discussed. Just the sense that relying on this sort of business model may be unwise in the long term might be enough to make companies think differently about where they get their income from.

This system generates coin on the basis of the traveller being unaware of the real chance of getting what they wish for. Awareness itself, especially among older travellers, that the odds they are not favourable will be the thing that closes the lid on this chapter in time. Not legislation or regulatory enforcement.

This is why children are often targeted with boxes. They are less experienced, less aware, more impulsive and therefore better cash machines, if they can get hold of someone's payment card …

Educate your kittens to be wise gamers and we can look forward one day to something fairer for all perhaps.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Facefister · May 2019

@SantieClaws

Predatory business practice is illegal, hence the attempt at a new law against the lootboxes. Lootboxes, tied to p2w and p2c elements, is a predatory business practice. An extreme example: Educating yourself and others about illegal drugs doesn't mean that illegal drugs become legal since you know the dangers about them. It's about protecting, the consumer and the market itself.

I for one, really hope that the law passes. Anyone who ties lootboxes on their b2p and p2p games deserve the fist.

TheShadowScout · May 2019

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

It depends very much on the way in which any legislation defines the lootboxes it regulates or bans. ESO differs from many games in that there is ingame value in every box, even if some players regard the standard content as trash. That distinguishes it from the standard form of gambling where you either win or lose...

...AND that the stuff ZOS sells for cash is only "cosmetic" or "shortcut", and not much else in effect.

Still, I reckon the worst that might happen is that maaaaybe they would change the crown crates to a non luck based system, selling the stuff in there directly for crowns. Which I'd prefer anyhow, honestly... (mostly because my luck tends to range somewhere between "bad" and "abyssal" most days)

But it is nice to see the legal system start thinking about this over there as well, espcially for the -real- offenders (the ones who drop you those "loot boxes" in game, then -sell- you a key to gamble on -maybe- finding something better then all the normal drops in there... or the ones where you -have- to charge up your character power with "premium" items bought in the cash store to have a chance of being competetive... we all know those games, i presume?)

I didn't even play neverwinter for a full day after it released because of that crap.

I stopped playing DC Universe Online because of that crap.
I still play Star trek Online despite that crap... (but I wish they would get slapped down and remove that crap.)

And I pray to any god who might listen and demons as well if it helps that future games will forego that crap entirely for fear of legislation hitting them with massive fines! it will get us better games in the end...

ArchMikem wrote: »

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for

Crates arent the only reason people buy crowns.

Exactly.
If the crates go bye-bye, I for one will -still- spend my monthly share of crowns in addition to my subscription for all those cosmetic things I want for the True endgame - Elder Dressup Online!

Hey, I have no issues putting my money where my mouth is, and I -like- ESO, so I am prepared to spend that money most other people hereabouts carry to the pub each weekend on my MMORPG enjoyment and drink tea instead...

Commancho wrote: »

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for

There is subscription model already. Playing this game without ESO+ is like eating a soup with a fork.

Working as intended.
The "buy to play" without subscription is good for a trial run... all right for one character... but as soon as you get serious about it, you WILL want the benefits like double inventory and crafting bag... that's how its set up!
But it -does- allow a lot of people to "test the waters", to see if they might like the game well enough to invest their hard earned money into getting serious, without allowing for too-cheap "throwaway accounts" that spam a great many other games with gold sellers and their ilk...
Good balance, I say.

SantieClaws wrote: »

This one does not think this law will pass...

Maybe, maybe not.
But the idea is on the table now.
If it does not pass now in this form... then maybe a while down the road in a different form.
Especially since I expect sooner or later someone will get the "Lets tax the crap out of those loot box profits!" notion, and then... well, we all know how certain things get when taxes (or death) get involved, right?

Ogou · May 2019

Casdha wrote: »

If you think this law won't affect games like this ask yourself this question, Is the game I'm worried about marketed in Belgium, Japan, or China where these bans already exist?

I'm pretty sure ZOS is still selling the crates in Belgium.

DaveMoeDee · May 2019

UrQuan wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Ok. Let us know if it passes lol

Well the bill was just announced today and first hit the media a couple of hours ago, so it'll be a while before we know if it's actually going to go anywhere. Reading through the senator's web page and the linked one-pager about the bill, though, it seems like he understands the industry and the problematic monetization practices that are out there, so I'll be very interested to see what happens with this. There are right and wrong ways to do monetization, and it looks like this bill is very specifically targeting the wrong ways.

Critics have been telling the video game industry for years that if they don't appropriately self-regulate things like this, then they're going to have regulations forced on them. Let's see if this passes.

Of course they can't self-regulate. Anyone can publish a p2w app to an app store and make absurd profits that leave AAA games in the dust. Why should devs spending 8-9 figures hold back from trying to make as much money as cheap trash like Clash of Clans?

DaveMoeDee · May 2019

Casdha wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

What case law are you basing your claim on? When have the courts said that a dev would have to prove that no one accessing is underage? All they require to access their website is entering your age. As far as I know, that is considered sufficient.

LartenCrepsley · May 2019

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

It would cripple many f2p games like Apex and fortnight.. Also those boxes on a small scale can help pay for Indi games. It's a slippery slope honestly. Let's hope our government leaders understand balance.............................................................. F*ck

depends if fornites pve mode (only mode with loot boxes) will even exist by the time the bill gets reviewed... at the time of writing this fornite pve mode is mostly abandoned in favor of the pvp battle royale mode, which does not contain lootboxes but instead has daily items for sale

Wifeaggro13 · May 2019

UrQuan wrote: »

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for

No, it doesn't look like that at all. Did you read the link? It's specifically talking about gambling mechanics in games aimed at children (ie. under 18, which doesn't apply to ESO), and at pay to win microtransactions (which also doesn't really apply to ESO).
At most ZOS might have to introduce some system to ensure that parents can restrict crown crate purchases on their kids' accounts if they've let their kid play this game that's rated 18+

The Asian ports have far more to worry about. Zos is abusive with predatory double pay systems and creates. But no where near the Asian models that make you pay for everything .

PoseidonEvil · May 2019

Lumenn wrote: »

While I don't see this affecting ESO any I hope it's a foot in the door. I personally would like to see loot boxes/microtransactions die a fast, and horrible death. Too many companies putting out trash just to make profit off microtransactions and thinking they did good. And unfortunately too many of us pay it so I guess they really are winning. /shrug

guess it must not all be trash if people are still paying for it lawl…

also I heard that post the OP shared is fake news? seen the same thing on Facebook and all the comments suggested it wasn't even real lol.

ManwithBeard9 · May 2019

PoseidonEvil wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

While I don't see this affecting ESO any I hope it's a foot in the door. I personally would like to see loot boxes/microtransactions die a fast, and horrible death. Too many companies putting out trash just to make profit off microtransactions and thinking they did good. And unfortunately too many of us pay it so I guess they really are winning. /shrug

guess it must not all be trash if people are still paying for it lawl…

also I heard that post the OP shared is fake news? seen the same thing on Facebook and all the comments suggested it wasn't even real lol.

You should google it sometime.

Starlock · May 2019

Thank you for posting this, @UrQuan !

SantieClaws · May 2019

Facefister wrote: »

@SantieClaws

Predatory business practice is illegal, hence the attempt at a new law against the lootboxes. Lootboxes, tied to p2w and p2c elements, is a predatory business practice. An extreme example: Educating yourself and others about illegal drugs doesn't mean that illegal drugs become legal since you know the dangers about them. It's about protecting, the consumer and the market itself.

I for one, really hope that the law passes. Anyone who ties lootboxes on their b2p and p2p games deserve the fist.

But perhaps traveller which makes the most difference in reducing drug use - law enforcement or education?

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Na0cho · May 2019

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

It would cripple many f2p games like Apex and fortnight.. Also those boxes on a small scale can help pay for Indi games. It's a slippery slope honestly. Let's hope our government leaders understand balance.............................................................. F*ck

There’s no gambling or loot boxes in either of those games. You straight up pay for skins that give you 0 advantage and it’s not random. You want a certain skin, you buy that skin. Are these games targeted at kids? Maybe fortnite but there’s a *** ton of adults who play as well.

Some games like smite for instance, you can only get certain skins from random chance loot boxes. Kind of like how eso does it with mounts and such. Still not sure how this lands since you get no advantage but it is rng.

Na0cho · May 2019

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

If they pass one bill, kiss the rest of this *** goodbye. People who say,”*** it this won’t affect me”, are usually wrong.

ManwithBeard9 · May 2019

Na0cho wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

If they pass one bill, kiss the rest of this *** goodbye. People who say,”*** it this won’t affect me”, are usually wrong.

Sure Jan.

Facefister · May 2019

SantieClaws wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@SantieClaws

Predatory business practice is illegal, hence the attempt at a new law against the lootboxes. Lootboxes, tied to p2w and p2c elements, is a predatory business practice. An extreme example: Educating yourself and others about illegal drugs doesn't mean that illegal drugs become legal since you know the dangers about them. It's about protecting, the consumer and the market itself.

I for one, really hope that the law passes. Anyone who ties lootboxes on their b2p and p2p games deserve the fist.

But perhaps traveller which makes the most difference in reducing drug use - law enforcement or education?

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Education and enforcement go hand in hand.

Sanctuary_Reaper · May 2019

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I don’t want it to be mandatory, as I believe population levels would plummet.

Good, maybe the server can handle the players that are online then, because zos certainly is not putting any of the money it makes from transactions towards the server at all, that much is clear.

Skwor · May 2019

Na0cho wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

If they pass one bill, kiss the rest of this *** goodbye. People who say,”*** it this won’t affect me”, are usually wrong.

People who say people are usually wrong are usually wrong. 😏

Acrolas · May 2019

Na0cho wrote: »

People who say,”*** it this won’t affect me”, are usually wrong.

The Protecting Children from Abusive Games Act
Senator Hawley’s legislation would apply new consumer protections to games played by minors including:
• Games targeted at those under the age of 18.
• This would be determined by subject matter, visual content, and other indicators similar to those used to determine applicability of the Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA)
• Games with wider audiences whose developers knowingly allow minor players to engage in microtransactions

In such games, this bill would prohibit several forms of manipulative design:

https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/2019-05-08_Protecting-Children-Abusive-Games-Act_One-Pager.pdf

Sure, I hit that Report button and roll my eyes enough that it sometimes feels like this forum is full of minors. But this is not intended to be a comprehensive reform bill and will not affect all games equally. ESO will remain unaffected.

OP already admitted as much so the thread seems more intended to bait than to inform.

Casdha · May 2019

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

What case law are you basing your claim on? When have the courts said that a dev would have to prove that no one accessing is underage? All they require to access their website is entering your age. As far as I know, that is considered sufficient.

I'm not basing it off of case law, I'm basing it off of common sense as has been shown in this thread time and time again. M is not 18+ it is 17 and Up Link

I'm not sure about Sony but Microsoft should be covered by their use of Microsoft Family accounts and having settings for ESRB ratings to block games. On the other hand the Consoles are definitely marketed toward people under the age of 18. If ESO were to change to AO they would be covered as would PC players.

If this were to pass it would be more profitable for ZOS to take away the Crown Crates than it would be to convert to the AO rating.

I also stated don't go by what is said here, go look up the information for yourself as all of this is left to interpretation.

idk wrote: »

Further, I do find it odd how you falsely combine new classes with the loot boxes when there is nothing relating the two areas other than they are in the same game. I think you are grasping at straws since even Belgium would not make such a ludicrous restriction. That last comment just make no sense.

This was only pointed at the arguments I see all of the time here where folks claim that Locking new classes behind chapters is P2W. I don't believe that but I have seen the argument numerous times on these forums and the fact that the proposed law specifically mentions P2W and what they consider that to be. How many politicians do you believe would do their research on video games and act with caution rather than taking the safe route if this law gets passed?

As far as The Square Enix comment, I don't play those games I only saw an article about how they were pulled when the Belgium law went into effect.

Goregrinder · May 2019

Tyralbin wrote: »

What people are missing here is that the ESRB game ratings are a voluntary code. Game ratings are not yet enforceable under the law.

I cannot ever see it being made law either it is too hard to police. Unlike shops, bars and cinemas were you can actually send people to check whether laws are being adhered too.

This is why laws are being passed on how games are run as a business. Easier to police a business model than a user of the business.

Until a case is won against a company in regards to age restriction no law will exist and the costs to prove this case would be huge. That is why it hasn't happened yet.

The downside to banning things though is that companies find it easier and more cost effective just to pull out of the region enforcing the ban.

This.

The United States is not other countries. We do not care that other countries are doing things this way, or that way....we don't. Most of us here in the US don't even know that other countries besides Canada, and Mexico exist. Some of us don't even know that Alaska (49th state) exists or is part of the US.

We just don't care. So until someone sues a game company here over loot boxes, and somehow they can prove that it is 100% gambling (which would require that the legal definition of gambling in the US be changed, which opens up multiple cans of worms on it's own), it would be almost impossible to pass something like that.

Will they evaluate it? Sure. They will take a look at loot crates, CSGO cases, etc...Maybe speculate on this and that, or "what if we had a law that did this....would it affect other markets in a negative way?..".

But to actually try and get it passed? Yeah....good luck lol.

idk · May 2019

Casdha wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

What case law are you basing your claim on? When have the courts said that a dev would have to prove that no one accessing is underage? All they require to access their website is entering your age. As far as I know, that is considered sufficient.

I'm not basing it off of case law, I'm basing it off of common sense as has been shown in this thread time and time again. M is not 18+ it is 17 and Up Link

I'm not sure about Sony but Microsoft should be covered by their use of Microsoft Family accounts and having settings for ESRB ratings to block games. On the other hand the Consoles are definitely marketed toward people under the age of 18. If ESO were to change to AO they would be covered as would PC players.

If this were to pass it would be more profitable for ZOS to take away the Crown Crates than it would be to convert to the AO rating.

I also stated don't go by what is said here, go look up the information for yourself as all of this is left to interpretation.

idk wrote: »

Further, I do find it odd how you falsely combine new classes with the loot boxes when there is nothing relating the two areas other than they are in the same game. I think you are grasping at straws since even Belgium would not make such a ludicrous restriction. That last comment just make no sense.

This was only pointed at the arguments I see all of the time here where folks claim that Locking new classes behind chapters is P2W. I don't believe that but I have seen the argument numerous times on these forums and the fact that the proposed law specifically mentions P2W and what they consider that to be. How many politicians do you believe would do their research on video games and act with caution rather than taking the safe route if this law gets passed?

As far as The Square Enix comment, I don't play those games I only saw an article about how they were pulled when the Belgium law went into effect.

My point stands. The added classes being behind a pay wall is irrelevant to the discussion of crown crates. This thread is not about the false claims of P2W.

As for Belgium and Square Enix, context is needed. They targeted multiple games from different companies yet I only see Square Enix being mentioned. There is a reason and looking at the action in a vacuum does not shed light on where ESO crown crates stand in Belgium since I expect ESO is available there.

Ohtimbar · May 2019

I think it unlikely this bill becomes law in the current 'deregulate everything' political climate.

cheifsoap · May 2019

Facefister wrote: »

SantieClaws wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

@SantieClaws

Predatory business practice is illegal, hence the attempt at a new law against the lootboxes. Lootboxes, tied to p2w and p2c elements, is a predatory business practice. An extreme example: Educating yourself and others about illegal drugs doesn't mean that illegal drugs become legal since you know the dangers about them. It's about protecting, the consumer and the market itself.

I for one, really hope that the law passes. Anyone who ties lootboxes on their b2p and p2p games deserve the fist.

But perhaps traveller which makes the most difference in reducing drug use - law enforcement or education?

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Education and enforcement go hand in hand.

Thats gone so well in the US /s

cheifsoap · May 2019

Goregrinder wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

What people are missing here is that the ESRB game ratings are a voluntary code. Game ratings are not yet enforceable under the law.

I cannot ever see it being made law either it is too hard to police. Unlike shops, bars and cinemas were you can actually send people to check whether laws are being adhered too.

This is why laws are being passed on how games are run as a business. Easier to police a business model than a user of the business.

Until a case is won against a company in regards to age restriction no law will exist and the costs to prove this case would be huge. That is why it hasn't happened yet.

The downside to banning things though is that companies find it easier and more cost effective just to pull out of the region enforcing the ban.

...Will they evaluate it? Sure. They will take a look at loot crates, CSGO cases, etc...Maybe speculate on this and that, or "what if we had a law that did this....would it affect other markets in a negative way?..".

But to actually try and get it passed? Yeah....good luck lol.

They have business people who get paid to look at trends such as p2w, lootcrates, and so on. As I've said before, the writing is on the wall. Something will happen eventually, if not this - something else. In the end the choice is theirs, their business people can make the moves so that this type of legislation has 0 impact on them in the future or not and roll the dice in hopes their lobbying will prevent it.

Goregrinder · May 2019

cheifsoap wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Tyralbin wrote: »

What people are missing here is that the ESRB game ratings are a voluntary code. Game ratings are not yet enforceable under the law.

I cannot ever see it being made law either it is too hard to police. Unlike shops, bars and cinemas were you can actually send people to check whether laws are being adhered too.

This is why laws are being passed on how games are run as a business. Easier to police a business model than a user of the business.

Until a case is won against a company in regards to age restriction no law will exist and the costs to prove this case would be huge. That is why it hasn't happened yet.

The downside to banning things though is that companies find it easier and more cost effective just to pull out of the region enforcing the ban.

...Will they evaluate it? Sure. They will take a look at loot crates, CSGO cases, etc...Maybe speculate on this and that, or "what if we had a law that did this....would it affect other markets in a negative way?..".

But to actually try and get it passed? Yeah....good luck lol.

They have business people who get paid to look at trends such as p2w, lootcrates, and so on. As I've said before, the writing is on the wall. Something will happen eventually, if not this - something else. In the end the choice is theirs, their business people can make the moves so that this type of legislation has 0 impact on them in the future or not and roll the dice in hopes their lobbying will prevent it.

They can "look" all day long if they want to.

Aptonoth · May 2019

This is some of the best news I’ve heard recently. I really really hope this goes through. Also lol no eso won’t survive with a subscription model they will double down on cosmetics and dlc hard though. I know 10 people who will stop playing if it goes subscription not including myself. Video games make so much money they don’t even "need" dlc or subscriptions. Some of these ceo’s in control of game companies are the most over paid ones in the entire world lol. Their salaries are so big they could pay for eso’s server’s for 5 years and not even be hurt lol and that’s their yearly basic pay not including obscene bonuses they often get. Companies are in ZERO ‘need’ to include any dlc or fees other than the basic cost of buying a game and don’t let their excuses fool you.