Is Dark Exchange a DPS lost?

Tasear · May 2019

It's been brought up Sorcs don't have sustain issues and that this skill is fine, so I bring the debate to people.

Why do Sorcs have sustain issues with dark exchange should be fine according to many?

redspecter23 · May 2019

Not sure I'm understanding the question. Any skill with a primary focus on sustain should be a dps loss, otherwise you'd just spam that ability weaved with light attacks. A rotation adds a sustain skill to sustain resources and typically at a loss in dps to keep you going longer.

AcadianPaladin · May 2019

My magsorc puts down AoEs and heavy attacks so she has no sustain problems. She happily uses matriarch for her burst heal needs.

My bow/bow stamsorc does have to carefully manage her stamina. Despite its clunkiness, she uses Dark Deal for primarily its stam sustain, but it also doubles as a sometimes necessary burst heal doing double duty with one slot and not costing stam to cast (like Vigor does). If possible, she tries to bar swap cancel snipe when going onto her bar that has Dark Exchange and cast Dark Exchange immediately so by the time she drops her Hail/Caltrops killing zone AoEs from that bar, the 'can't bar swap for a couple seconds' clunky penalty of Dark Exchange has expired and she can bar swap as/when she needs to.

DPS loss? Compared to running out of stamina, I'd guess not. Lol.

Runefang · May 2019

I think you mean to ask, is it a DPS loss over other forms of sustain (glyphs, absorb magicka enchant, heavy attacks etc)?

Shantu · May 2019

Sorcs don't have sustain issues? Maybe not heavy attack pet builds, but their sustain sucks otherwise. In my NB rotations I NEVER even have to think about sustain. For my MagSorc, if Elemental Drain is not constantly up, I'm out of magicka in no time. Even with the light armor Evocation and Breton racial passives, it's still a bit ridiculous. There's not a single Class skill that returns magicka.

Druid40 · May 2019

Do some testing. For you, switching glyphs with Dark Deal may be a alight dps gain or negligible loss.

Tasear · May 2019

Runefang wrote: »

I think you mean to ask, is it a DPS loss over other forms of sustain (glyphs, absorb magicka enchant, heavy attacks etc)?

Yes ty

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2019

It is a DPS loss in a PVE rotation. And even if it wasnt, nobody is going to run a skill with a cast time for sustain that costs stam. I would slot spell sym before dark conversion in PVE.

Truthfully, sorc sustain is pretty good right now, assuming you have good support. It is way better than it has been in the past. Breton is the most obvious thing that helps, but running regen drink and back barring an abosrb magic glyph helps a lot as well. Assuming I have ele drain, I can sustain a 6 mil dummy without needing synergies or heavy attacks. In a raid, my breton sorc can get away with blue food just fine.

Apherius · May 2019

Yup dark deal is useless in PvE.

Apherius · May 2019

Dark deal is meh, it could be so much more interesting in PVE

the cast time IS the issue.

Dark Conversion

if your goal is to make it interesting in both PVE and PVP, here is an idea (not the best):
" Dark Conversion: Cost 2000 stamina ~ Cast-T : Instant ~ Duration: 20,4 sec ~ Self : Bargain with darkness, restore 8K health and 3600 Magicka after 1,2 sec. [ Then restore 1100 health and 190 magicka each 1,2 sec but deplete 350 stamina each second, during 19,2 sec. Until you run out of stamina or the ability is toggled off]. You can be interrupted within 1,2 sec after you used the ability.

I really like this idea, make it a toogle like mend wound ( requiered on one bar only), toggle the skill on ... wait( no cast-time, you can use another ability while " waiting ") 1,2 sec then toggle it off if you only care about the first part of the skill, or keep it on and it will start draining your stamina while restoring your health and magicka each 1,2 sec after 1,2 sec... + the enemies still have 1,2 sec to interrupt you when you use the skill.

Or
Dark Conversion: Cost 2250 stamina ~ Cast-T : Instant ~ Self : Bargain with darkness, restore 8K health and 3600 Magicka after 1,2 sec. and an additional 2400 magicka over 20 second. you can be interrupted within 1,2 sec after you used the ability.
( This would make the ability useful in PVE cause the cast time is the main problem ) and keep it useful in PVP.

Or

Dark Exchange

Dark Exchange: Cost 3014 stamina or Magicka ~ Cast-T: Instant ~ Self: Bargain with darkness to restore 8K health and 3600 magicka or stamina after 1,2 sec and an additional 2500 magicka or stamina over 20 second, whichever maximum is the higher. and cost 3014 stamina or magicka whichever maximum is lower. You can be interrupted within 1,2 sec after you used the ability.
Dark Conversion:: [ Has reduced cost ]
Dark Deal: Cost 1100 stamina or magicka ~ Cast-T: Instant ~ Self ~ needed on 1 bar only ~ Toogle: Bargain with darkness to restore 1100 health and 250 magicka or stamina each 1,2 sec, whichever maximum is the higher and cost 300 stamina or magicka each 1 sec, whichever maximum is the lower. Deplete stamina or magicka until your run out or the ability is tooggled off. (Can’t be interupted)

They would need to ajust the values ofc.

Elwendryll · May 2019

I saw a 84k dps parse from @hedna123b14_ESO with stamsorc using Dark deal. I'm not quite sure why, or if it was optimal, but I guess if you can achieve that, it's not really that much of a loss.

MasterPleb · May 2019

i think no decent DD in PvE uses dark exchange, ngl.

Apherius · May 2019

Elwendryll wrote: »

I saw a 84k dps parse from @hedna123b14_ESO with stamsorc using Dark deal. I'm not quite sure why, or if it was optimal, but I guess if you can achieve that, it's not really that much of a loss.

on dummy ? Are you sure he didn ‘t used it 1 time before starting the fight for the ress over 20 sec, then replaced it by another skill ?

Elwendryll · May 2019

Apherius wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

I saw a 84k dps parse from @hedna123b14_ESO with stamsorc using Dark deal. I'm not quite sure why, or if it was optimal, but I guess if you can achieve that, it's not really that much of a loss.

on dummy ? Are you sure he didn ‘t used it 1 time before starting the fight for the ress over 20 sec, then replaced it by another skill ?

https://youtu.be/RniGifATsy0
I don't know, you tell me.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2019

Elwendryll wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

I saw a 84k dps parse from @hedna123b14_ESO with stamsorc using Dark deal. I'm not quite sure why, or if it was optimal, but I guess if you can achieve that, it's not really that much of a loss.

on dummy ? Are you sure he didn ‘t used it 1 time before starting the fight for the ress over 20 sec, then replaced it by another skill ?

https://youtu.be/RniGifATsy0
I don't know, you tell me.

In that particular instance I used it, but it's not really ideal. I started using heavies for sustain instead in later parses for better results

Elwendryll · May 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

In that particular instance I used it, but it's not really ideal. I started using heavies for sustain instead in later parses for better results

Thanks, because it really troubled me to see it used. But what are we talking about, 2-3k dps?

spacebandit · May 2019

I was gonna test my Stamsorc dps last night. I started in on my 3 mil dummy and about 50% I was completely out of stamina. I had forgot to use regen food. Even with regen food Sorc regen is total trash.

Dark deal is wonky and the heal is wasted. You ever have to dodge roll while using it and it feels like it just got put on a 5 second timer. And your like I guess I will just die then

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2019

Elwendryll wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

In that particular instance I used it, but it's not really ideal. I started using heavies for sustain instead in later parses for better results

Thanks, because it really troubled me to see it used. But what are we talking about, 2-3k dps?

With heavies last week 87-89k was possible on stamsorc

WrathOfInnos · May 2019

Dark sustain is an ability with a cast time. To use it you give up 2 skill global cooldowns and skip the light attack weave that would have been between those 2 skills. Assuming best case scenario, 2 spammables replaced without letting DoTs or buffs fall off, this adds up to 70-80k damage missed. There is also some risk associated with being locked in a cast time ability, if you need to shield or sprint suddenly, and you are unable to perform actions like synergizing an orb or drinking a potion (more of an annoyance than a i damage loss).

It cannot be used efficiently more than every 20s, and to incorporate it into a Sorc rotation it will be more like 24s between casts. This means that you can restore 6000 Magicka over 24s, or 250 Magicka per second.

During that same 24s period, the ~72k damage missed (for simplicity) works out to 3k DPS loss. On top of that, you need to find a place to slot Dark Exchange, which is difficult on a Sorc, especially in the pet meta. Best case here is that you give up Bound Aegis for it, losing 8% Max Magicka (roughly 3% DPS) and 1320 Physical and Spell Resistance (roughly 3% more damage taken). Casting Dark Exchange also means you’ll be low on stamina for things like blocking, dodging, or breaking free, adding more risk.

So to make the math easy, let’s say a DPS was doing 66k DPS. By adding this sustain skill into their build they lose 3k in active skills and 2k from passive skills, for a total loss of 5k in order to gain 250 magicka per second.

Now compare this to an alternative sustain method, changing 2 jewelry enchants from Spell Damage to Magicka Recovery. You lose 348 Spell Damage (487 after multipliers) resulting in about 5-6% DPS loss or maximum 4k (using the same 66k DPS baseline). For sustain you gain 338 Mag Recovery (588 after multipliers), resulting in 294 magicka per second.

So Recovery jewelry for sustain yields 1k higher DPS, 44 magicka per second, and has none of the associated risks of Dark Exchange.

So basically Dark Exchange is an ability that serves only to make your build worse than if you were to directly replace damage stats with recovery stats.

Runefang · May 2019

spacebandit wrote: »

I was gonna test my Stamsorc dps last night. I started in on my 3 mil dummy and about 50% I was completely out of stamina. I had forgot to use regen food. Even with regen food Sorc regen is total trash.

Dark deal is wonky and the heal is wasted. You ever have to dodge roll while using it and it feels like it just got put on a 5 second timer. And your like I guess I will just die then

This is exactly why the skill is bad. It's balanced on the fact you also get a heal.

A heal that takes 2 seconds to land (you're already dead if you actually needed it) and is especially useless in PvE when you've got a healer.

They need a PvP morph and a PvE morph. The PvP morph should cost the lowest of your resource pools and restore the highest resource pool plus health (or whatever, I rarely PvP). The PvE morph should cost the lowest of your resource pools and restore the highest resource pool while being insta cast.