Legislation Introduced in the USA to Ban Loot Boxes & Pay to Win Microtransactions

ManwithBeard9 · May 2019

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

Casdha · May 2019

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

Kalgert · May 2019

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for

Who says that it's gonna go that way? Likely they'll continue business as usual, with ESO+ and the Crown Store with its plethora of cosmetic items in store... Just means they won't be able to afford the luxury of making illustrious stuff for gambleboxes and put it in the store proper.

Bouldercleave · May 2019

Casdha wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

A warning on the box and an age verification is all that would be required. The developer would not have to prove anything other than that to be protected.

ManwithBeard9 · May 2019

Casdha wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

They game company wouldn't have to prove anything, the prosecutors office would have to prove that. Which is near impossible to prove unless they subpoenaed Sony and Microsoft for access to EVERY user profile to determine an age of the user of the profile. It ain't happening. That's all assuming the bill passes, which it won't.

Ardaghion · May 2019

Casdha wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

I created a new account yesterday on Xbox and to activate I had to state that I was over 13 years old, there's currently no requirement to be over the age of 18 to play ESO. Therefore ZOS would be under the requirement "knowingly allow minor players to engage in microtransactions"

darthgummibear_ESO · May 2019

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for

Not necessarily. If they put all crate contents on the store for direct purchase I know that at least myself would spend more money than I do currently.

1mirg · May 2019

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

What this means in the long run is that all games that have Lootboxes + Anything that can be seen as "Pay to Win" by the board will have to be reclassified as Adults Only otherwise they'll be facing legal ramifications. Right now ESO is listed as Mature by the ESRB, which is a rating for 17 and over. Thus still allowing those under the legal age of gambling which is generally 18 and over on average in the USA to be exposed and possibly even take part in such activities.

If this bill is passed then Zenimax will have 3 options:

Have the ESRB reclassify their game as "Adults Only".
Do a complete overhaul of the Crown Store.
Change nothing and be charged and prosecuted as a company for Gambling to minors.

Casdha · May 2019

If you think this law won't affect games like this ask yourself this question, Is the game I'm worried about marketed in Belgium, Japan, or China where these bans already exist?

idk · May 2019

FYI. Most legislation never makes it to the floor for a vote for even one of the chambers, let alone passed by both and signed into law.

Even on the small chance it gets passed, and it might, crates are not going away. It will merely set parameters that have to be followed. It is absurd to think that somehow a law will cease all use of crates in games.

Bouldercleave · May 2019

Ardaghion wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

what does it mean if it passes? NA gets free from loot boxes finally? but what about the rest of us?...u know...the poor children from the EU?

Nothing would happen because the bill is aimed at games that cater to minors, so not M rated games. So ESO would be free to have crates.

For this to be true ZOS (or any developer) would have to prove that no one under the age of 18 is allowed to play their game, which is all but impossible for any game released to consoles.

Again go back and read the wording on my previous post concerning the quote, or any of the articles.

Don't go by what is said here, go look up the stories and articles for yourself.

I created a new account yesterday on Xbox and to activate I had to state that I was over 13 years old, there's currently no requirement to be over the age of 18 to play ESO. Therefore ZOS would be under the requirement "knowingly allow minor players to engage in microtransactions"

So they bump the verification to 18 and make everybody re-verify upon log in. Boom - they are now free and clear. Age verification online is all but impossible - and everyone with half a brain knows this.

Ardaghion · May 2019

idk wrote: »

FYI. Most legislation never makes it to the floor for a vote for even one of the chambers, let alone passed by both and signed into law.

Even on the small chance it gets passed, and it might, crates are not going away. It will merely set parameters that have to be followed. It is absurd to think that somehow a law will cease all use of crates in games.

I think this is the most realistic outcome. The US representative system is awash with lobbyists, this bill might not get Senate supporters, if it does, it might die in committee, if it makes it past committee, McConnell will never let it see the floor for a vote. Then you'd need to get it through the House.

DenMoria · May 2019

UrQuan wrote: »

Other countries have taken steps against loot boxes (some banning them outright, and others taking softer approaches), and now a bill is being introduced in the USA as well to address them:
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-introduce-legislation-banning-manipulative-video-game-features-aimed-children
I don't expect this will really impact ESO much, as last I checked ESO is rated 18+, and when it comes to loot boxes the bill seems to be aimed at protecting minors, but if the bill passes they may need to put some additional controls in place to prevent kids playing with their parents' permission from buying crown crates.

I was particularly interested to read about the part of the bill aimed at pay to win microtransactions, but I don't think that piece would have much of an impact on ESO either, aside from giving ZOS a legal incentive to not push the envelope with convenience items and be extra careful about possibly crossing from convenience to pay to win.

Since when is ESO 18+?

We've go so many prepubescents playing ESO, there's no way it's 18+.

Casdha · May 2019

idk wrote: »

FYI. Most legislation never makes it to the floor for a vote for even one of the chambers, let alone passed by both and signed into law.

Even on the small chance it gets passed, and it might, crates are not going away. It will merely set parameters that have to be followed. It is absurd to think that somehow a law will cease all use of crates in games.

Well this could be a rare case "could be" because this actually has supporters from both sides if the isle.

As far as absurd goes, why did Square Enix pull games from the Belgium market when they passed a similar law?

On the bright side, this should only affect crown crates and possibly force them to include new races and classes as part of the base game updates when new ones come out.

jainiadral · May 2019

*peers into crystal ball* Yep, this is going nowhere fast.

Bouldercleave · May 2019

DenMoria wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Other countries have taken steps against loot boxes (some banning them outright, and others taking softer approaches), and now a bill is being introduced in the USA as well to address them:
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-introduce-legislation-banning-manipulative-video-game-features-aimed-children
I don't expect this will really impact ESO much, as last I checked ESO is rated 18+, and when it comes to loot boxes the bill seems to be aimed at protecting minors, but if the bill passes they may need to put some additional controls in place to prevent kids playing with their parents' permission from buying crown crates.

I was particularly interested to read about the part of the bill aimed at pay to win microtransactions, but I don't think that piece would have much of an impact on ESO either, aside from giving ZOS a legal incentive to not push the envelope with convenience items and be extra careful about possibly crossing from convenience to pay to win.

Since when is ESO 18+?

We've go so many prepubescents playing ESO, there's no way it's 18+.

Honestly it doesn't matter if they slap 18+ on the box or not. How could you EVER even enforce that?

ManwithBeard9 · May 2019

Bouldercleave wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Other countries have taken steps against loot boxes (some banning them outright, and others taking softer approaches), and now a bill is being introduced in the USA as well to address them:
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-introduce-legislation-banning-manipulative-video-game-features-aimed-children
I don't expect this will really impact ESO much, as last I checked ESO is rated 18+, and when it comes to loot boxes the bill seems to be aimed at protecting minors, but if the bill passes they may need to put some additional controls in place to prevent kids playing with their parents' permission from buying crown crates.

I was particularly interested to read about the part of the bill aimed at pay to win microtransactions, but I don't think that piece would have much of an impact on ESO either, aside from giving ZOS a legal incentive to not push the envelope with convenience items and be extra careful about possibly crossing from convenience to pay to win.

Since when is ESO 18+?

We've go so many prepubescents playing ESO, there's no way it's 18+.

Honestly it doesn't matter if they slap 18+ on the box or not. How could you EVER even enforce that?

The same way adult sites do it.

Bouldercleave · May 2019

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Other countries have taken steps against loot boxes (some banning them outright, and others taking softer approaches), and now a bill is being introduced in the USA as well to address them:
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-introduce-legislation-banning-manipulative-video-game-features-aimed-children
I don't expect this will really impact ESO much, as last I checked ESO is rated 18+, and when it comes to loot boxes the bill seems to be aimed at protecting minors, but if the bill passes they may need to put some additional controls in place to prevent kids playing with their parents' permission from buying crown crates.

I was particularly interested to read about the part of the bill aimed at pay to win microtransactions, but I don't think that piece would have much of an impact on ESO either, aside from giving ZOS a legal incentive to not push the envelope with convenience items and be extra careful about possibly crossing from convenience to pay to win.

Since when is ESO 18+?

We've go so many prepubescents playing ESO, there's no way it's 18+.

Honestly it doesn't matter if they slap 18+ on the box or not. How could you EVER even enforce that?

The same way adult sites do it.

Yeah, cause I'm sure that works...

DenMoria · May 2019

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Other countries have taken steps against loot boxes (some banning them outright, and others taking softer approaches), and now a bill is being introduced in the USA as well to address them:
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-introduce-legislation-banning-manipulative-video-game-features-aimed-children
I don't expect this will really impact ESO much, as last I checked ESO is rated 18+, and when it comes to loot boxes the bill seems to be aimed at protecting minors, but if the bill passes they may need to put some additional controls in place to prevent kids playing with their parents' permission from buying crown crates.

I was particularly interested to read about the part of the bill aimed at pay to win microtransactions, but I don't think that piece would have much of an impact on ESO either, aside from giving ZOS a legal incentive to not push the envelope with convenience items and be extra careful about possibly crossing from convenience to pay to win.

Since when is ESO 18+?

We've go so many prepubescents playing ESO, there's no way it's 18+.

Honestly it doesn't matter if they slap 18+ on the box or not. How could you EVER even enforce that?

The same way adult sites do it.

By asking you if you 18, of course.

In my case I grudging say yes while weeping uncontrollably at the reminder of just HOW over 18 I am, but, I can guarantee that many of the players I've run in to in the game are not 18.

Either that or there's a helium leak that's affecting a LOT of players.

UrQuan · May 2019

DenMoria wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Other countries have taken steps against loot boxes (some banning them outright, and others taking softer approaches), and now a bill is being introduced in the USA as well to address them:
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senator-hawley-introduce-legislation-banning-manipulative-video-game-features-aimed-children
I don't expect this will really impact ESO much, as last I checked ESO is rated 18+, and when it comes to loot boxes the bill seems to be aimed at protecting minors, but if the bill passes they may need to put some additional controls in place to prevent kids playing with their parents' permission from buying crown crates.

I was particularly interested to read about the part of the bill aimed at pay to win microtransactions, but I don't think that piece would have much of an impact on ESO either, aside from giving ZOS a legal incentive to not push the envelope with convenience items and be extra careful about possibly crossing from convenience to pay to win.

Since when is ESO 18+?

We've go so many prepubescents playing ESO, there's no way it's 18+.

I was wrong about that - it's actually rated 17+
Check out the rating at the bottom of this page:
https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/store/product/eso_elsweyr_edition

Bouldercleave · May 2019

The exact court transcript:

Judge:

The player was only 11

Game developer:

Your Honor, we put a mature warning label and 18+ disclosure on the box. We also outline that the game is for mature audiences 18+ in our Terms of Service, and require online age verification all per the legal guidelines. The player electronically signed stating that he agreed with the Terms of Service and that he was over 18 years old. Here is the proof.

Judge:

Case dismissed

1mirg · May 2019

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Your Honor, we put a mature warning label and 18+ disclosure on the box. We also outline that the game is for mature audiences 18+ in our Terms of Service, and require online all per the legal guidelines.

Age Verification:
List yourself as 17 years old and you'll get past that verification. (I legit just tested it out on their official website)

Terms of Service:
It's a "browsewrap agreement" which in court can't be upheld that very well, infact another company years ago lost the case because it was exactly that. There is also many other ways that the TOS won't be upheld in court too but i'm not going into all those reasons.

ESRB Rating:
The game is Rated M for Mature, not Adult Only. This means that those under the legal age of Gambling in the states (18+ generally) are still listed as acceptable customers for the product. Which means all the crown store items for sale are also being advertised to those that aren't legally of age to gamble, this includes items such as the Crown Crates to even the 100+ dollar ingame homes for sale.

Verdict:
The company will lose the suit (if they are charged, that is) if things don't change before this bill is passed into law. Their Headquarters is located in Hunt Valley, Maryland, U.S. after all.

MattT1988 · May 2019

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

Simple, if this Ban gets throught, ZOS has to return to a Subscription Model. Be carefull what you wish for

LOL ZOS was doing fine before crown crates. They don’t need them. Crown crates were an unnecessary money grab, nothing more. If ZOS ever had to get rid of the crates they’ll just sell the stuff in the crown store and people would still buy them.

Perwulf · May 2019

All I want is for them to let me effin buy those effin Radiant Apex directly.

Runefang · May 2019

Bouldercleave wrote: »

The exact court transcript:

Judge:

The player was only 11

Game developer:

Your Honor, we put a mature warning label and 18+ disclosure on the box. We also outline that the game is for mature audiences 18+ in our Terms of Service, and require online age verification all per the legal guidelines. The player electronically signed stating that he agreed with the Terms of Service and that he was over 18 years old. Here is the proof.

Judge:

Case dismissed

To be fair, until they get to the point with games where you have to prove you're over a certain age with ID the whole idea of game ratings is pointless nowdays. Back when all games were sold in stores you could reasonably expect the stores to enforce the age limits (even though they didn't), now it's impossible with online purchases. At some point people will be expected to provided images of an ID document along with a selfie, whenever the onus is put on the seller and not the buyer to prove the buyer's age.

Goregrinder · May 2019

The problem with this is that the US has already defined what it considers "gambling". And since a user can't make a profit from the seller, and there is no intrinsic value from the items that come from the cases or crates, they aren't counted as currency, so this doesn't count as gambling.

Otherwise people who buy MTG packs, loot a rare card, can go up to Wizards of the Coast and demand the "black market" trade value in return for "winning". But Black market or 2nd hand values aren't counted as an actual value, and don't give an item intrinsic value.

Playing a slot machine at a casino is gambling because you use currency with intrinsic value to gamble for more currency with intrinsic value. You can put $1 in a machine, and get absolutely nothing back. Or you can put a $1 in, and get 100x times that value back from the house in the form of intrinsic currency. The fact that the house can make money off you, or that you can make money off the house, with real currency makes it gambling.

When you buy a case or crate, you aren't betting your money against something, you are paying for a service with no intrinsic value, but with the value of the cost of said service. The service is access to their server, and adding XX items to your online account or characters. There is no intrinsic value to them. How much you could make selling your account on ebay is a 2nd hand value, and does not count. The rare items you could get from the crates or cases have no real value outside of the game, they are items that can only be used within that said game.

The fact that there is a chance you could get an item, or a chance that you might not get an item doesn't inadvertently make it gambling. You're paying XX dollars for XX crates that give you something in return. You're never going to open a crate or case and get absolutely nothing. You're going to get SOMETHING. Whether or not that item is valuable to YOU or not is not what determines the line between gambling or not.

FreshlyB8ked · May 2019

I personally would be very pleased to see loot boxes go. Such a shame that these games have to rely on gambling for their income. It's ludicrous that I could end up spending $500 on loot crates and still not secure what I actually wanted from this game. It's nothing but greed to have this type of stuff in a game.
I get this income is needed and will be sought out elsewhere should these loot boxes get banned, but I would be much more willing to spend my money on a product I know I'm getting.

DenMoria · May 2019

Maybe if game companies actually started charging the value of their games they wouldn't need such shady practices to make money.

I mean, honestly, I've been spending between $50 and $70 on AAA games for the last 20 years.

I think it's time for a raise in prices.

Wayshuba · May 2019

Crown Crates are such a minor part of ESO I don't think it would effect much.

Even if ESO eliminated crates, the could offer the goodies directly in the Crown Store.

Wing · May 2019

this would effect ESO

its rated M 17+ putting it into the child category (in the US that's under 18)

if they want to keep loot boxes they have to change there rating to AO 18+ (adult only)

that's the rating reserved for *** games and the like, companies go out of their way to avoid that rating, and a lot of places and services WILL NOT sell AO games / products.

so we shall see what they do if in fact it does pass. (I personally hope it does) probably crown crates would go away and crown crate items would go directly to the store for a set price, in my opinion, that's better.