Shrouded daggers vs surprise attack
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Muzzick✭✭✭✭I am just trying to say that sorcerers using magic to enhance close combat has been a thing since the first of RPGs. It makes way more sense that nightblades depend on Weapon skills than sorcerers.
Sorcerers should definitely have their own magical abilities. This could be done without taking something away from another class...0 -
Prutton✭✭✭The problem of Surprise Attack is that it overperforms:
- Higher damage than generic spammables (like Crushing Weapon and Shrouded Daggers).
- Lower cost than generic spammables.
- Major Fracture.
- Major Resolve and Major Ward.
It is just too strong. Give this to stamdks and they will stop complaining immediatly. Remove it from stamblades and they will whine for the rest of their lives.3 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Since shrouded daggers gives major brutality, if not running weapon power pots, shouldn’t daggers out perform surprise attack? On top of that daggers will hit multiple targets and works at range.
I get that SA will proc your resistance, but any shadow skill does that’s not unique to SA.
So it looks like if you are the minority that runs weapon power pots against a single target only the surprise attack should win out, but if you are not running pots then daggers wins and on top of that you get a skills that will greatly exceed against multiple targets and can be used at distance.
Am I missing anything?
There is a flaw for stam you are not going to cast a magicka Shadow Skill every 6-7 seconds to keep up your Major Resolve/Ward. You will get pretty good uptime if you are heavily using cloak in PVP, but that's the only place you will get high uptime. Otherwise SA gives you neigh 100% uptime if you use SA as your spammable in both PVE and PVP.
The second Flaw is that this is already true for every class without a spammable yet Daggers doesn't earn a permanent spot for those classes.
I still think NB skill tree would make more sense if SA and Blur swapped places in the tree's and Major Ward/Resolve from Shadow Barrier was swapped with the Major Evasion from Blur.
Yes I think the only real advantage to run SA now is just to get shadow barrio resistance proc. And I think if running normal pots you are giving up dps to get that which hurts average players but will have no impact on the top 1-5%.
An interesting alternative might be drop vigor and add shadow cloak to the rotation. Not as an adaption for meta, but rather the best thing the general population (those using normal pots) now that this skill is loosing fracture. Not many can afford to click a weapon power pot every 45 seconds they are in combat. So maybe better approach is heal with dark cloak (uses magic instead of stam), procs shadow, spam daggers which gives you brutality and will out dps multi target for sure and likely out damage single target with normal pots.
Alcast actually recommends using daggers for classes without a spammable so its hardly a new approach, but I think one that is being under utilized. Free major brutality from the skills a a big bonus that is hard to ignore. Having it on power extraction only when it hits a target is an incredible poor design choice leaving it as a non alternative. Maybe the newest buff makes it viable, but I am not so hopeful.
I do agree that SA and blur should have been switched, just makes total sense for the class. But if they did this it would have been harder to justify dropping fraction which was really what they were after. I'm just tying to figure out best adaption for typical players giving the current situation. I really think NB is now a class just for high end players, unless you are in the meta of 1-5% you probably would be more effective just playing a different class.
Lytw8
I'm not sure what difference there is between how Hidden Blade and Power Extraction grant Major Brutality. The only difference is the tooltip description, because you can activate Power Extraction without a target. In either case you only get Major Brutality if you actually hit a target with the ability (since Hidden Blade requires a target before you can activate it in the first place).
Surprise Attack hits harder, costs less, procs Shadow Barrier, and has that minor 5% physical resistance debuff now. Seems like a no-brainer as the better single-target spammable.
Just slot Hidden Blade/Power Extraction and cast them when you need to proc Major Brutality and continue using SA as your spammable.4 -
eso_lytw8✭✭✭The problem of Surprise Attack is that it overperforms:
- Higher damage than generic spammables (like Crushing Weapon and Shrouded Daggers).
- Lower cost than generic spammables.
- Major Fracture.
- Major Resolve and Major Ward.
It is just too strong. Give this to stamdks and they will stop complaining immediatly. Remove it from stamblades and they will whine for the rest of their lives.
this discussion is around PTS about PTS version and whether it makes sense to run it when running normal pots so...
- I believe without major brutality that it will do LESS damage then shrouded daggers, against 3 targets it will do over 200% more damage than SA and it will increase damage of all other skills. Daggers will do almost 30k damage across 3 targets with brutality vs like 9k for SA, how is SA so good?
- daggers costs on only 5% more, yet again will do over 3X the damage to multi-targets plus it raises damage of everything else. I'm hoping someone will do a parse on PTS to compare to single target using normal pots. We know that daggers will greatly outperform SA against 1+ target, but I suspect it will also outperform single target.
- Major fracture is GONE, this was the main reason to run the skill
- Agree the only reason to run it now if for resolve and ward.
Stamdk's still have fracture DOT skill plus still have a brutality buff skill. Nightblades have neither, not complaining here it is what is is. I am trying to make the best of it, and the best of it appears to be shelve SA if you can not afford to run weapon power pots. In this state it might be better if stamdk's had it since they can brutality buff themselves, it would be a good skill for them. I'd trade it for noxious breath. Then we could run noxious for fracture and daggers for brutality and DK's can use SA self buffing for brutality. deal.
Lytw8
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< Xbox NA PVE >2 -
EtTuBrutus✭✭✭✭✭You should never be without major brutality. So comparing a build with and a build without isn't the way to test.4
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Prutton✭✭✭Sorcerers should definitely have their own magical abilities. This could be done without taking something away from another class...
You were the one saying Sorcerers shouldn't have stamina skills, that it doesn't fit them. Why can't both of them have skills for stamina builds? If one of them need to use Weapon Skills, it makes more sense that it is nightblades. I prefer that all classes have their own spammables and identity.1 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭lol, surprise attack > throw dagger unless you’re in 4 man content. But in 4 man content throw dagger > every spammable so that is null. This won’t change next patch. I actually can’t believe someone compared two abilities but only gave one the major brutality buff and the other one compared without, it just goes to show why we need private forums.Edited by templesus on May 5, 2019 9:30PM1 -
Nevasca✭✭✭✭✭SA is cheaper
SA procs Shadow Barrier
SA will have 5% pen debuff
Unless you really need the AoE, SA will still be the superior option.0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I've never heard of Nightblades before ESO.Mercedes Lackey wrote:They come creeping our of darkness, and to darkness they return.
In their wake they leave destruction; where they go, no one can learn.
For they leave no trace in passing, as if all who watched were blind
Like a dream of evil sending,
Nightblades passing, nightblades rending,
Into darkness once more blending
Leaving only dead behind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6F11R9dip0 Edited by FrancisCrawford on May 5, 2019 9:39PM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Littlebluelizard wrote: »SA is cheaper
SA procs Shadow Barrier
SA will have 5% pen debuff
Unless you really need the AoE, SA will still be the superior option.
In what context would you not want aoe? Dueling? You make it sounds like doing aoe damage is a negative.Edited by Iskiab on May 5, 2019 11:36PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
eso_lytw8✭✭✭lol, surprise attack > throw dagger unless you’re in 4 man content. But in 4 man content throw dagger > every spammable so that is null. This won’t change next patch. I actually can’t believe someone compared two abilities but only gave one the major brutality buff and the other one compared without, it just goes to show why we need private forums.
I don't think you understand what I am asking, if you are a typically player I believe you do not have the funds to drop Xk/hour on weapon power pots, you use normal stamina potions, in this case what should you run? What is the high self buffed build a NB should use if running normal pots? My suggesting is to use a normal meta skill set (alcast for example), but replace SA with shrouded daggers. If you have a better suggestion I am all ears. If you want to use SA with brutality that's great what skill should we drop and what skill should we add to get brutality and how should the rotation be changed, Then we can test those and see if your suggest is better.
BTW, I play all classes stamblade, stamDK, magDK, stam warden, stam sorc, mag sorc, etc. I'm not trying to start any debate of nb nerfing I am simple trying to figure out how to adept skill sets for the average player when the changes I expect go live.
< Xbox NA PVE >0 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »I've never heard of Nightblades before ESO.Mercedes Lackey wrote:They come creeping our of darkness, and to darkness they return.
In their wake they leave destruction; where they go, no one can learn.
For they leave no trace in passing, as if all who watched were blind
Like a dream of evil sending,
Nightblades passing, nightblades rending,
Into darkness once more blending
Leaving only dead behind.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6F11R9dip0
LOL nice find, this should be the official nightblade theme song
Label:
Firebird Music – FM-10027-4
Format:
CD, Album
Country:
US
Released:
1996
Genre:
Folk, World, & Country0 -
eso_lytw8✭✭✭EtTuBrutus wrote: »You should never be without major brutality. So comparing a build with and a build without isn't the way to test.
Fair enough, if not using weapon power pots do you have any suggestion as to the best skill to use to get brutality for a NB that still uses SA? What skill do you recommend dropping and what skill do you recommend picking up and how to use it in a rotation.
For sake of argument let's use alcast build as an example. Should we drop trap beast from main bar and replace it with daggers or power extraction and weave it into the rotation? Loosing Trap beast is going to be a big dps loss but maybe that is still better then my suggestion which is replace SA with daggers? Do you have a better way to modify alcast build?
< Xbox NA PVE >0 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭lol, surprise attack > throw dagger unless you’re in 4 man content. But in 4 man content throw dagger > every spammable so that is null. This won’t change next patch. I actually can’t believe someone compared two abilities but only gave one the major brutality buff and the other one compared without, it just goes to show why we need private forums.
You're missing the point here. He was comparing the damage when you're not using potions because not everyone wants to use potions all the time.
But for PVP if you're using duel wield/bow for example there's no space for both surprise attack and hidden blade on your dual wield bar. And it would be inconvenient to get into melee range to use power extraction to get brutality.
But for PVE I'd have power extraction slotted anyway and continue to use surprise attack for more damage.0 -
eso_lytw8✭✭✭lol, surprise attack > throw dagger unless you’re in 4 man content. But in 4 man content throw dagger > every spammable so that is null. This won’t change next patch. I actually can’t believe someone compared two abilities but only gave one the major brutality buff and the other one compared without, it just goes to show why we need private forums.
You're missing the point here. He was comparing the damage when you're not using potions because not everyone wants to use potions all the time.
But for PVP if you're using duel wield/bow for example there's no space for both surprise attack and hidden blade on your dual wield bar. And it would be inconvenient to get into melee range to use power extraction to get brutality.
But for PVE I'd have power extraction slotted anyway and continue to use surprise attack for more damage.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, I was beginning to think I was loosing it. Why could I not get this simple point across.
Here is the thing, as NB I usually run the same build. If content is hard I will hit weapon power pots, if not too hard I use regular pots just giving up major brutality, yes I just go without it. I'm nothing to brag about as I only 36k seff buff dps without brutality but it is plenty for most content so I just do that, run alcast build use normal pots and forego brutality. Im on console so I can't "insta" change skills but I can quickly change pots depending on content. I assume this is what most average players do.
Given SA gave fracture I always seemed to do enough dps with normal pots for base content, saving my good pots for harder stuff, time trials, DLC dungeons, etc. Now that we will not fracture I am trying to figure out best option guys that's it.
< Xbox NA PVE >0 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭lol, surprise attack > throw dagger unless you’re in 4 man content. But in 4 man content throw dagger > every spammable so that is null. This won’t change next patch. I actually can’t believe someone compared two abilities but only gave one the major brutality buff and the other one compared without, it just goes to show why we need private forums.
You're missing the point here. He was comparing the damage when you're not using potions because not everyone wants to use potions all the time.
But for PVP if you're using duel wield/bow for example there's no space for both surprise attack and hidden blade on your dual wield bar. And it would be inconvenient to get into melee range to use power extraction to get brutality.
But for PVE I'd have power extraction slotted anyway and continue to use surprise attack for more damage.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, I was beginning to think I was loosing it. Why could I not get this simple point across.
Here is the thing, as NB I usually run the same build. If content is hard I will hit weapon power pots, if not too hard I use regular pots just giving up major brutality, yes I just go without it. I'm nothing to brag about as I only 36k seff buff dps without brutality but it is plenty for most content so I just do that, run alcast build use normal pots and forego brutality. Im on console so I can't "insta" change skills but I can quickly change pots depending on content. I assume this is what most average players do.
Given SA gave fracture I always seemed to do enough dps with normal pots for base content, saving my good pots for harder stuff, time trials, DLC dungeons, etc. Now that we will not fracture I am trying to figure out best option guys that's it.
Yes I completely agree, I don't use console but I don't like to swap skills all the time either, I get pretty similar dps to you and doing mostly PVE I'm fine with that for the majority of content. I think it'll for PVE in the upcoming patch power extraction will be nice to get the buff from, and they are buffing the damage on that too. But for PVP daggers is a great idea plus it hits multiple targets. My only concern is the cost difference as while one attack is not a huge difference, it can add up and be significant.0 -
Prutton✭✭✭This discussion is ridiculous. You can buy a set with 200 potions for less than 20k. That means 100 gold per potion. Considering you use between 2 or 3 potions per boss, and that each dungeon/trial has 3 to 4 bosses, that gives around 10 potions per run. So, with 20k gold you can run around 20 dungeons/trials, or 1k per dungeon/trial.
In other words, you don't need to use potion in every thrash fight. If you just pick loot in the ground and sell on stores, you get more than enough to supply your need for potions. And here I am considering you pay for the pots, because you can get most of your pots for free with alchemy alone.1 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Using your same argument, then Nightblades shouldn't be able to cast spells like Leeching Strikes (soul-stealing power) or Relentless Focus (spectral bow).
nightblade =/= assassin.
nightblade = tricky character who deals physical/magical burst damage.
AAANYWAY, on-topic, i kinda agree that using SA is definitely less desirable now on melee stamblades but keeping the major defense buffs up every ~6 seconds is still very important. So it'll probably still be used.Edited by HowlKimchi on May 6, 2019 7:30AM0 -
eso_lytw8✭✭✭This discussion is ridiculous. You can buy a set with 200 potions for less than 20k. That means 100 gold per potion. Considering you use between 2 or 3 potions per boss, and that each dungeon/trial has 3 to 4 bosses, that gives around 10 potions per run. So, with 20k gold you can run around 20 dungeons/trials, or 1k per dungeon/trial.
In other words, you don't need to use potion in every thrash fight. If you just pick loot in the ground and sell on stores, you get more than enough to supply your need for potions. And here I am considering you pay for the pots, because you can get most of your pots for free with alchemy alone.
Sounds like you suggest to run without brutality against non bosses and everyone playing should be using pots with bosses, yet another person said "you should never run without brutality". And I'd be willing to bet the majority of NB's playing this game run normal pots practically all of the time because dungeons aren't done with that type of speed so it isn't 1k/dungeon for them. When you run without pots on trash I'm certain that daggers will outperform SA in this situation so not sure how sharing this is ridiculous unless anti NB'ers want to make sure that any threads pointing out PTS deficiency in SA for average players will some how lead to it not being nerfed. SA is loosing fracture, this is happening, the devs won't be changing it. So I ask please can we just have a conversation about what options are best for the average player.
Option #1 - your suggestion, every NB player must runs both kind of potions, skills the same, just forego brutality on trash fights. I agree this is probably the best thing and what I do now, but I contend that the majority of players probably don't have power pots in their kit at all, maybe we just need to teach the importance of it. Fracture made this option much more palatable for base players.
Option #2 - drop SA completely for shrouded daggers, run normal pots all the time. I contend this is a dps increase on trash and likely a DPS increase to over running SA without brutality. Seems like a good dps option, it is certainly cheapest on pots, but you would loose shadow barrier passive which might be a deal breaker.
Option #3 - (assume alcast build) - you would only change front bar skills so this means you drop trap beast and replace it with power extraction. You could then run normal pots but would need to add power extraction into your rotation to keep up brutality. This would be a dps loss for sure but might be best option when running normal pots. This is probably the best option for players who don't use pots.
I get it on PC you have tools that help manage skills, gear, timing, but on console these tools don't exist so keeping options to simple ones that can be executed without constant changes is necessary especially for base players. I do appreciate the suggestions guys and I do apologize to those who think I am wasting your time.
Lytw8
< Xbox NA PVE >0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Option 4, nerf flying daggers so that a buff skill is not out damaging a pure damage skill.1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Option 4, nerf flying daggers so that a buff skill is not out damaging a pure damage skill.
Game’s going the opposite direction, aoes are being buffed across the board so there’s little reason to use single target attacks.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
T3hasiangod✭✭✭✭✭Easy solution: have different bar set-ups for trash/overland and bosses.
This is what I do on my stamNB.
Trash: TFS + WM + Veli
Bar 1: Power Extraction, Expert Hunter, Killer's Blade, Rending Slashes, Relentless Focus, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Bar 2: Caltrops, Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Leeching Strikes, Channeled Acceleration, Incap
Boss: Relequen + WM + Veli
Bar 1: Killer's Blade, Surprise Attack, Rending Slashes, Relentless Focus, Rearming Trap, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Bar 2: Caltrops, Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Leeching Strikes, Rearming Trap, Incap
This lets me use trash/no potions on trash pulls and Weapon Power potions on bosses.2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭. Easy solution: have different bar set-ups for trash/overland and bosses.
Super easy on console.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Option 4, nerf flying daggers so that a buff skill is not out damaging a pure damage skill.
Game’s going the opposite direction, aoes are being buffed across the board so there’s little reason to use single target attacks.
I am aware and not a fan. All the aoes in the game ought to only be 60% of the damage single target of an actual single target skill.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on May 6, 2019 2:53PM3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: ». Easy solution: have different bar set-ups for trash/overland and bosses.
Super easy on console.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Option 4, nerf flying daggers so that a buff skill is not out damaging a pure damage skill.
Game’s going the opposite direction, aoes are being buffed across the board so there’s little reason to use single target attacks.
I am aware and not a fan. All the aoes in the game ought to only be 60% of the damage single target of an actual single target skill.
Agreed. Right now this is only the case with major evasion.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
eso_lytw8✭✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »Easy solution: have different bar set-ups for trash/overland and bosses.
This is what I do on my stamNB.
Trash: TFS + WM + Veli
Bar 1: Power Extraction, Expert Hunter, Killer's Blade, Rending Slashes, Relentless Focus, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Bar 2: Caltrops, Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Leeching Strikes, Channeled Acceleration, Incap
This lets me use trash/no potions on trash pulls and Weapon Power potions on bosses.
Asian, Thanks for replying. I am a fan of your work, thanks for what you do for the community. So question for you, is this what you would run if you could not easily switch gear/skills (i.e. console players) and were going to run regular stam pots. I like it a lot, it has a lot of flexibility, you get brutality and savagery and minor force with just normal pots. Looks like you are going to spam power extraction. which will be really strong next this upcoming release. You ok with when going single target or if you had only one build you were using for both single and multi target what would you recommend?
Sorry for such restrictions, I'm really after trying to help average console players running normal pots.
Lytw8
< Xbox NA PVE >0 -
Prutton✭✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »Bar 1: Killer's Blade, Surprise Attack, Rending Slashes, Relentless Focus, Rearming Trap, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Bar 2: Caltrops, Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Leeching Strikes, Rearming Trap, Incap
If I played on console, didn't want to use potions and couldn't switch skills fast with addons, I would either:
- Add Power Extration to the backbar.
- Add Shrouded Dagger to the front bar.
For example, in the quoted build, I would remove one of the double barred Rearming Traps.2
