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Shrouded daggers vs surprise attack
eso_lytw8
✭✭✭
Since shrouded daggers gives major brutality, if not running weapon power pots, shouldn’t daggers out perform surprise attack? On top of that daggers will hit multiple targets and works at range.
I get that SA will proc your resistance, but any shadow skill does that’s not unique to SA.
So it looks like if you are the minority that runs weapon power pots against a single target only the surprise attack should win out, but if you are not running pots then daggers wins and on top of that you get a skills that will greatly exceed against multiple targets and can be used at distance.
Am I missing anything?
I get that SA will proc your resistance, but any shadow skill does that’s not unique to SA.
So it looks like if you are the minority that runs weapon power pots against a single target only the surprise attack should win out, but if you are not running pots then daggers wins and on top of that you get a skills that will greatly exceed against multiple targets and can be used at distance.
Am I missing anything?
< Xbox NA PVE >
3
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eso_lytw8✭✭✭I think the damage is still lower plus the cost is too high for a spammable
so I checked it on live for me
SA cost 1836 w/o brutality does 9210
Daggers cost 1931 and does 8263 w/brutality on first hit does 9877 on second hit and 11833 on third hot plus it increases the damage of every other skill I have including my heals.
Seems like a no brainer, any time you can't afford potions daggers is a much better skill leaving SA in thee domain of the largely elite. Even on single target I'm pretty sure daggers will out damage SA if you aren't running pots. Any chance someone on PTS could test?
This dawned on me today as I was running VMA on my stamblade, I run daggers + SA instead of rending slashes because daggers is ranged and gives brutality. I asked my self why in the heck would I run SA if it no longer gives fracture.
< Xbox NA PVE >1 -
eso_lytw8✭✭✭So I'd like to see if someone on PTS could run a standard stamblade parse using regular pots then swap out SA with shrouded daggers and run a second parse with the same regular pots.
< Xbox NA PVE >0 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭That's a good idea, esp for PVP. I think for PVE I will run crushing weapon. Without the pen from major fracture the DPS becomes very similar plus the heals are nice.0 -
Prutton✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.8
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Muzzick✭✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.2 -
Schattenfluegel✭✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Gandalf with Glamdring? :PLove my Stamsorc4 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Schattenfluegel wrote: »Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Gandalf with Glamdring? :P
Lol, still a magical weapon used by a magical wizard.1 -
Schattenfluegel✭✭✭✭Schattenfluegel wrote: »Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Gandalf with Glamdring? :P
Lol, still a magical weapon used by a magical wizard.
Dont know...its very Stainless Steel looking like
Love my Stamsorc2 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Schattenfluegel wrote: »Schattenfluegel wrote: »Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Gandalf with Glamdring? :P
Lol, still a magical weapon used by a magical wizard.
Dont know...its very Stainless Steel looking like
Yes it's quite shiny but if Gandalf had 64 points in stamina, Sauron would have won.5 -
Heimpai✭✭✭✭✭Schattenfluegel wrote: »Schattenfluegel wrote: »Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Gandalf with Glamdring? :P
Lol, still a magical weapon used by a magical wizard.
Dont know...its very Stainless Steel looking like
Yes it's quite shiny but if Gandalf had 64 points in stamina, Sauron would have won.
They’re the same person..Gandalf was using shadow image3 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Schattenfluegel wrote: »Schattenfluegel wrote: »Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Gandalf with Glamdring? :P
Lol, still a magical weapon used by a magical wizard.
Dont know...its very Stainless Steel looking like
Yes it's quite shiny but if Gandalf had 64 points in stamina, Sauron would have won.
They’re the same person..Gandalf was using shadow image
That's news to me, please provide a reliable source for this
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iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
"sorcerers in history" well I dont know of any such thing as sorcerers unless you believe some of the crazier myths in some religious traditions.12 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
"sorcerers in history" well I dont know of any such thing as sorcerers unless you believe some of the crazier myths in some religious traditions.
OK I don't know what you're talking about, of course it's all real!0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
By that logic stamina nighbtlade shouldn't exist in current form either.Edited by Juhasow on May 4, 2019 3:21PM6 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shrouded is really good ability with the potential to beat supprise attack even when somebody is using crafted potions. Many people is using it on stamblade in score runs in 4 man content. As for which one is better the answer is : depends. It's not always just about the tooltip.Edited by Juhasow on May 4, 2019 3:24PM2 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
By that logic stamina nighbtlade shouldn't exist in current form either.
How is that so? I've never heard of Nightblades before ESO. You can look up the definition of sorcerer or sorcery in any dictionary.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭On topic... that’s a really good idea OP, especially in pvp.
I never considered using it on my alt because using ranged attacks will quickly deplete your stamina without light attacks. Using it like a melee skill would be better, plus it will always hit even if someone’s kiting and might go in and out of melee range. Looks like a no brainer to me.Edited by Iskiab on May 4, 2019 4:26PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Prutton✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Using your same argument, then Nightblades shouldn't be able to cast spells like Leeching Strikes (soul-stealing power) or Relentless Focus (spectral bow).2 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Using your same argument, then Nightblades shouldn't be able to cast spells like Leeching Strikes (soul-stealing power) or Relentless Focus (spectral bow).
Whoever said nightblades can't use any magic at all? Every character has some limited magical ability. A nightblade is basically an assassin and it's up to them if they decide to use magic or skills to do that. But stamina nightblades magic is very limited for example they could only do 2-3 cloaks in a row.
Your original post said "Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers". My point was saying why would a ability called "surprise attack" that deals exclusively "physical damage" make sense in a sorcerer when sorcery by definition is using magic.
Now I'm not against stamina sorcerers getting a spammable. Just call it something else that sticks with the identity of the class and have a magical component to it. Maybe they can possess magical artifacts that can enhance their weapons, in a similar concept to the psijic skill line. There's no class identity in asking for assassin based skills. If you want assassination skills then make a nightblade.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Give Surprise Attack to stamina sorcerers, and make Nightblades use spammables from Weapon skills.
LOL! There should be a button for if you find the post funny. I don't even know why stam sorc is even a thing, sorcery has always been magic based. I don't know any sorcerers in history running around with two daggers or a giant axe.
Using your same argument, then Nightblades shouldn't be able to cast spells like Leeching Strikes (soul-stealing power) or Relentless Focus (spectral bow).
That’s a rogue. Typically NBs are known for magic and daggers.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Schattenfluegel wrote: »
Even if Gandalf decided to use a giant battle axe or a bow and arrow he would be using a weapon based skill and not a class spammable0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since shrouded daggers gives major brutality, if not running weapon power pots, shouldn’t daggers out perform surprise attack? On top of that daggers will hit multiple targets and works at range.
I get that SA will proc your resistance, but any shadow skill does that’s not unique to SA.
So it looks like if you are the minority that runs weapon power pots against a single target only the surprise attack should win out, but if you are not running pots then daggers wins and on top of that you get a skills that will greatly exceed against multiple targets and can be used at distance.
Am I missing anything?
There is a flaw for stam you are not going to cast a magicka Shadow Skill every 6-7 seconds to keep up your Major Resolve/Ward. You will get pretty good uptime if you are heavily using cloak in PVP, but that's the only place you will get high uptime. Otherwise SA gives you neigh 100% uptime if you use SA as your spammable in both PVE and PVP.
The second Flaw is that this is already true for every class without a spammable yet Daggers doesn't earn a permanent spot for those classes.
I still think NB skill tree would make more sense if SA and Blur swapped places in the tree's and Major Ward/Resolve from Shadow Barrier was swapped with the Major Evasion from Blur.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
sneakymitchell✭✭✭✭Flying blade might be in close par. But you lose passives from surprise attack remember.NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Tank DK
PC-NA Ebonheart Pact Nord Stam Templar2 -
Prutton✭✭✭Even if Gandalf decided to use a giant battle axe or a bow and arrow he would be using a weapon based skill and not a class spammable
Nightblades don't use Weapon skills just because they wear daggers. They use a class skill to enhance the effect of a dagger attack. The same should apply for all classes. For example, one simple solution to spammable for sorcerers would be moving Imbue Weapon to Sorcerer skills, removing from Psijic. That way, that would become a trademark ability of them, instead of something that every other class can use but choose to use something else instead.0 -
Muzzick✭✭✭✭Even if Gandalf decided to use a giant battle axe or a bow and arrow he would be using a weapon based skill and not a class spammable
Nightblades don't use Weapon skills just because they wear daggers. They use a class skill to enhance the effect of a dagger attack. The same should apply for all classes. For example, one simple solution to spammable for sorcerers would be moving Imbue Weapon to Sorcerer skills, removing from Psijic. That way, that would become a trademark ability of them, instead of something that every other class can use but choose to use something else instead.
I don't know if I'd call it a simple solution because you'd be taking away an ability thats shared between classes. Why don't you start a thread with a poll about that though so you'd get others opinions on your solution?0 -
Prutton✭✭✭I am just trying to say that sorcerers using magic to enhance close combat has been a thing since the first of RPGs. It makes way more sense that nightblades depend on Weapon skills than sorcerers.0
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eso_lytw8✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Since shrouded daggers gives major brutality, if not running weapon power pots, shouldn’t daggers out perform surprise attack? On top of that daggers will hit multiple targets and works at range.
I get that SA will proc your resistance, but any shadow skill does that’s not unique to SA.
So it looks like if you are the minority that runs weapon power pots against a single target only the surprise attack should win out, but if you are not running pots then daggers wins and on top of that you get a skills that will greatly exceed against multiple targets and can be used at distance.
Am I missing anything?
There is a flaw for stam you are not going to cast a magicka Shadow Skill every 6-7 seconds to keep up your Major Resolve/Ward. You will get pretty good uptime if you are heavily using cloak in PVP, but that's the only place you will get high uptime. Otherwise SA gives you neigh 100% uptime if you use SA as your spammable in both PVE and PVP.
The second Flaw is that this is already true for every class without a spammable yet Daggers doesn't earn a permanent spot for those classes.
I still think NB skill tree would make more sense if SA and Blur swapped places in the tree's and Major Ward/Resolve from Shadow Barrier was swapped with the Major Evasion from Blur.
Yes I think the only real advantage to run SA now is just to get shadow barrio resistance proc. And I think if running normal pots you are giving up dps to get that which hurts average players but will have no impact on the top 1-5%.
An interesting alternative might be drop vigor and add shadow cloak to the rotation. Not as an adaption for meta, but rather the best thing the general population (those using normal pots) now that this skill is loosing fracture. Not many can afford to click a weapon power pot every 45 seconds they are in combat. So maybe better approach is heal with dark cloak (uses magic instead of stam), procs shadow, spam daggers which gives you brutality and will out dps multi target for sure and likely out damage single target with normal pots.
Alcast actually recommends using daggers for classes without a spammable so its hardly a new approach, but I think one that is being under utilized. Free major brutality from the skills a a big bonus that is hard to ignore. Having it on power extraction only when it hits a target is an incredible poor design choice leaving it as a non alternative. Maybe the newest buff makes it viable, but I am not so hopeful.
I do agree that SA and blur should have been switched, just makes total sense for the class. But if they did this it would have been harder to justify dropping fraction which was really what they were after. I'm just tying to figure out best adaption for typical players giving the current situation. I really think NB is now a class just for high end players, unless you are in the meta of 1-5% you probably would be more effective just playing a different class.
Lytw8
< Xbox NA PVE >1