Class Balance Or Class Identity?
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Heelie
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So how is see ESO there are sort of two camps that are trying to acheive two very different goals. One camp wants class identity, the other wants class balance especially when it comes to damage dealing "pve", but also in support roles such as healers and tanks. So I ask, if you can choose one or the other, what is more important, equal performance acheived through strong weapon and guild skill lines, or class Identity acheived through strong class skill lines?
The good thing about strong weapon skill lines is that you can balance all classes, at the same time, to be able to complete all content in every role. But this often come at the cost of diverse skill loadouts, we see this with pve healers where only 4-5 class skills are slotted most often. Stamina sorcerer and stamina DK are good examples of weak class skill lines lacking the kit to perform up to par, therefore having to resort to weapon skill lines, losing their the class identity, it's often said that a stam DK player sometimes will realise half way through the fight that he accidently logged on his stamsorc.
The good things about strong class skill lines is that every class gets to experince a unique playstyle, but we often see a huge balance issue, Night Blade is a good example of a strong class skill line that is fun and unique to play. Warden have a unique class skill line, arguably the most unique before necromancer. But the kit is broken in pvp and incredibly underpowered in pve. Also with class skill lines an attempt to buff one role can have unforseen consequenses elsewhere as every role has acces to the entire kit. Something that is not the case for weapon skill lines.
The good thing about strong weapon skill lines is that you can balance all classes, at the same time, to be able to complete all content in every role. But this often come at the cost of diverse skill loadouts, we see this with pve healers where only 4-5 class skills are slotted most often. Stamina sorcerer and stamina DK are good examples of weak class skill lines lacking the kit to perform up to par, therefore having to resort to weapon skill lines, losing their the class identity, it's often said that a stam DK player sometimes will realise half way through the fight that he accidently logged on his stamsorc.
The good things about strong class skill lines is that every class gets to experince a unique playstyle, but we often see a huge balance issue, Night Blade is a good example of a strong class skill line that is fun and unique to play. Warden have a unique class skill line, arguably the most unique before necromancer. But the kit is broken in pvp and incredibly underpowered in pve. Also with class skill lines an attempt to buff one role can have unforseen consequenses elsewhere as every role has acces to the entire kit. Something that is not the case for weapon skill lines.
Most OwOrated healer of all time
Class Balance Or Class Identity? 167 votes
Class Balance, I believe every class should perform as equally as possible in every role even at the cost of some identity
6%
11 votes
Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worse
65%
110 votes
I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different roles
23%
40 votes
I don't actually care about balance / Identity
3%
6 votes
2
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xenowarrior92eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different rolesweird...at 1st I was expecting this to be another nightblade nerf thread...ok.0 -
ghastley✭✭✭✭✭
✭I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different rolesThough identity is important, there is the risk that any one class won't get used at all if it doesn't perform with the others. There needs to be enough opportunity elsewhere to offset any imbalance in the classes.
We can choose where to place attribute points, skill points etc. and each class should have enough options to make the choices distinct.0 -
TelvanniWizard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseAnd separate balance for pvp please.10 -
Ildun✭✭✭✭I don't actually care about balance / IdentityI don't want class, make them all skill line2
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TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can have balance without complete homogenization.
There is no PvE or PvP balance, there's just balance. If the devs started balancing and stop with the separation it'd be closer. Balance the classes around each other, then adjust the mobs.
That's it, that's the way to balance.
Balance =/= Equal
Balance = Within the Bell Curve // an acceptable mathematical disparity
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Ri_Khan✭✭✭✭✭
✭Class Balance, I believe every class should perform as equally as possible in every role even at the cost of some identityI hate to admit it but I think the general health of the PVP environment needs class balance above identity.
That being said, PVE and PVP definitely need to be balanced separately.0 -
Thraben✭✭✭✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseSo how is see ESO there are sort of two camps that are trying to acheive two very different goals. One camp wants class identity, the other wants class balance especially when it comes to damage dealing "pve", but also in support roles such as healers and tanks. So I ask, if you can choose one or the other, what is more important, equal performance acheived through strong weapon and guild skill lines, or class Identity acheived through strong class skill lines?
Class homogenization killed off my MagSorc healer and my StamSorc tank.
It prevents me from playing Eso the way I always play Elder Scrolls games.
If you balance a class around DPS dummy parses, it is okay to do so as long as keep interesting choices and fluff skills for all those who don´t care about PvE DPS. Which is not the case at the moment.
Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs
DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.
DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.3 -
david_m_18b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »You can have balance without complete homogenization.
There is no PvE or PvP balance, there's just balance. If the devs started balancing and stop with the separation it'd be closer. Balance the classes around each other, then adjust the mobs.
Its the opposite. A lot of stuff that would be OP in PvP is balanced in PvE and vice versa.
Tune mobs the way you want PvP and PvE won't ever requiert the same thing
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Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't actually care about balance / IdentityNone of the poll options fit me, but I guess this is closest.
I don't think about the game in terms of "class identity" or "class balance." I'm a role-player, which means I create characters, only a small component of which is their class. Because the characters I create are not solely defined by their class, I don't care about "class identity." Because I'm not into the competitive gaming scene, I don't care about "class balance" either. The identity of your characters is what you put into them. There's a lot of room for creativity in this game, but that seems to get lost on some folks.1 -
DyingIsEasy✭✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w 1 -
Ertosi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseTrue balance, in a game like this, is an unachievable ideal. Everyone is going to have their own measurement for where it might be and no one is going to agree as to where it may lay. Trying to achieve it, while noble, is wasted effort. Focusing too much on it leads to all of the classes become so diluted, they become hard to distinguish from each other.
Instead, focus should be on class identity and in such a way that each class brings an utterly unique form of gameplay. While building upon each classes unique identity, it should be structured so that better group diversity leads to more potent teams, which would help with all forms of group gameplay (PvP and PvE). In order to avoid class tiers in PvP, each class's abilities should be stronger than 1 or 2 others and weaker than 1 or 2 others; think paper, rock, scissors were each class has a good chance to trump another. The classes should become differentiated enough that the gameplay becomes truly asymmetric.PC NA @ErtosiSpoiler♠♦ My Team ♥♣
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No new crafting or game systems for 2019? "Season of the Dragon" would be better named "The Year of no New Major Features"
https://i.imgur.com/TPscgS9.jpg to see major features of the last few years compared.
https://i.imgur.com/X8qY0gP.jpg to see a detailed comparison of this year's Q1 to the last two Q1s.
https://i.imgur.com/4z71cK8.jpg to see a detailed comparison of each years' first two quarters combined.
https://i.imgur.com/jrHe5h8.jpg to see a projected comparison of the full years and what 2019's Q4 will need to catch up.
Unsubbed January 15th, 2019 due to the lack of any new substantial features shown to be coming in 2019.2 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different rolesI don't trust ZOS with this at all, but it's certainly possible to achieve both an acceptable balance and diversity at the same time. In fact, I'd say diversity requires balance.
I think one can achieve a balance where each class has a variety of build options that perform reasonably well in all situations (either PvE or PvP). And every class providing core skills to help dealing with any situation in different ways from the others, so they can perform as close as possible to each other without homogenization.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Heelie✭✭✭✭✭Class Balance, I believe every class should perform as equally as possible in every role even at the cost of some identityNone of the poll options fit me, but I guess this is closest.
I don't think about the game in terms of "class identity" or "class balance." I'm a role-player, which means I create characters, only a small component of which is their class. Because the characters I create are not solely defined by their class, I don't care about "class identity." Because I'm not into the competitive gaming scene, I don't care about "class balance" either. The identity of your characters is what you put into them. There's a lot of room for creativity in this game, but that seems to get lost on some folks.
I think to a lot of players the story telling is not very important, at least to me I have no idea of the lore behind anything, all my characters names are based on memes, I don't even know the name of the zones outside of Deshaan and Craglorn. To these players the combat elements of the game are essential this is what draws them to the game.Most OwOrated healer of all time0 -
Pourekos✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseNo MMO has ever managed to perfectly balance all classes/specs. Sure, some did a better job than others, but "perfect" balance (ie everyone being happy with it) has never been achieved. So purely based on that, rather than gutting classes/playstyles/specs/abilities left, right and centre while chasing the elusive Holy Grail, it's much better IMO to just make sure that you keep enough flavour in what you are serving your customers.2
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ATreeGnome✭✭✭✭I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different rolesIf you approach the matter as an issue of balance versus diversity you miss out on solutions that offer both - balance through diversity, if you will.
We already have a little of this built in to the game through the minor buffs that each class can offer the entire group. In an ideal trial situation, each class should offer enough of an increase in group DPS to offset the DPS that is lost by filling a slot with that class instead of whichever class parses the highest - plus just a little extra on top of that toact as an incentive.
So if these bonuses are in the game already, why aren't they working?
There are 2 main issues with the current implementation. One, too many of the buffs are far easier to provide as a tank or healer than as a DPS (looking at DKs especially). Two, even if a DPS could more effectively provide the buff, too many of the buffs don't make up for the gap in DPS compared to the highest parsing classes *cough*magden*cough*.
I think that if more focus were put on balancing the game around the group potential DPS rather than the DPS potential of individual classes it would allow for each class to be desirable in group content while still allowing plenty of room for each class to have a unique identity, feel, and playstyle.
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nihoumab14_ESO✭✭✭I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different rolesDragonknight healing intrigues me greatly (healer is my preferred role), I don't want it to be equivalent to a template, but it would be nice to be just as viable, whiles still bringing unique utility to the table. They are already close, but a few things, like making igneous shield not overwrite the tank would sell the deal0
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craybest✭✭✭✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseclass identity, i personally don't care for min maxing my character, but i think it sucks that right now most stamina builds use the same powers, and at most 1-2 class skills while the rest is dw/bow. makes class almost non important.3 -
rpa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't actually care about balance / IdentityI don't believe classes should be balanced in everything. Rock- paper-scissors type balance, with class strength balanced by appropriate weakness is better but that does not work well in design where every class can do everything.
Nerf the strong hard and buff the weak a tiny bit, not for balance but to keep the power creep in check.
I think in this particular game it might have been better to keep skills and buffs in skill lines and have cosmetic "class skill" / race identity.
Edited by rpa on May 2, 2019 11:38AM0 -
crazywolfpusher✭✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseSame happen with gear. There should be 10 different BiS to choose from that matches your character build.
For pvp there a lot more options..
Edited by crazywolfpusher on May 2, 2019 11:52AM0 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseNo classes at all. Skills.
If there have to be classes then diversity over balance,1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseAs a predominantly solo PvEer with many characters I'm very concerned with diversity both between and within the classes, and have absolutely no concern with balance. Diversity in this sense relates to skills and attributes as being a solo player I don't follow set builds or have any interest in "roles".Edited by Tandor on May 2, 2019 12:25PM0 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different rolesThey have a balance team, and they're far from lacking funds, I hope they will seriously rework the old classes in the future, it takes time, but well, their standards went up, but the classes didn't follow.PC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
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Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You can have identity/diversity and balance. Skills can be made equal with clear guidelines, and if they do so it will achieve more diversity and identity, not less. People will be able to select from any of a set of skills to use, rather than being forced into using the one skill that is the absolute meta.
The thing I do not like about what they've been doing is the new policy on only having 1 source of any buff/debuff on any given class. Such as how they removed fracture from surprise attack and removed 2 of NB's sources of expedition, this reduces class diversity & identity by removing options.1 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you had to break down the hardest hitting classes from best to worst.
Then list how many class skills they’re using.
Is there some correlation to class skills being used more on some than others?
Do the others have strong enough passives to make better use of outside skill lines?
Are outside skills stronger than class skills in some way? Should they be?0 -
Imperial_Voice✭✭✭✭✭
✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseWell since theres no balance anyway....0 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭Class diversity, I believe every class should have identity even if it performs slightly worseIf I really cared about class balance I would not be playing this type of game.0 -
Heelie✭✭✭✭✭Class Balance, I believe every class should perform as equally as possible in every role even at the cost of some identityWoW.
NB shine thread in disguise.
A class that overperformed any other class for over two years now doesn't want to lose the "identity" of the best class.
no more a question of what people believe is the best aproach to balance, and what they value the most. I don't play a night blade often msyself.Most OwOrated healer of all time0 -
Flameheart✭✭✭✭✭I believe that the balance team should go both ways, as I trust the balance team to be able to balance 6 classes in 3 different rolesGrumpyDuckling wrote: »Remove classes and let people select the skill lines they want.
I already said that years ago, sadly the decision for that was already made and won't change anymore.Sometimes the prey turns and nips us... it's a small thing.
So let the snow flakes and unicorns dance alone until they melt or vanish from existence, we will finish up with those smart enough to stay in the glowing circle of love.
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Sulhelka - CP 1k+ Altmer Magicka Sorcerer (Ebonheart Pact)
Sylundine - CP 1k+ Breton Magicka Warden (Ebonheart Pact)0
