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Nightblade Suggestions regarding 5.0.0+
Azaduur
✭✭
First, before I even get into this, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to defend what the class was, only attempt to put into words what I don't want this class to become, because if several adjustments are not made, then said adjustments WILL HAVE TO BE CORRECTED bit by bit over the course of several patches. Why? Because 5.0.0 Nightblade changes are terrible. I am simply bringing up criticisms of the decisions made, and why I believe them to be poorly thought out. I am not saying NIghtblade should be left alone, in fact I am trying to compromise and go about adjusting the class in a similar direction as ZoS, but I believe what I suggest will be better for the community as a whole.
Incapacitating Strike
All that needed to be done to this skill was the replacement of Major Defile with Minor Defile and working it so that the 6 seconds of Minor Defile are only applied if the ability is cast with 120 Ultimate or more. Minor Mangle on Incapacitating Strike is insulting, it has no discernible value. It only lasts for as long as the target is stunned by the Incapacitating Strike which is often less than 2 seconds, and as far as i can tell it is only applied AFTER the damage of Incap is applied, so if a target has 20k max health, and your Incap hits for 10k, than their max health is reduced to 18k for all of >2 seconds. Minor Mangle will only do damage if for some reason your Incap did less than 10% of a targets max health and only if your target is above 90% health. It's simply of no value, I find it insulting that it was even added.
Surprise Attack
The removal of Major Fracture is acceptable enough, though expecting people to find space on their full ability bars for an ability that does zero damage (Mark Target) and has no stamina morph is laughable. The 5% armor reduction on a target when used from the flank is pitiful. Assuming a target has 30k resistances, 5% is a pitiful 1500, and that's assuming the maximum value is applied, which I have no reason to believe is the case, as with all other forms of armor penetration, I can only assume it is calculated AFTER Major/Minor Fracture, AFTER Crushing, AFTER Spriggan's, AFTER Lover Mundus, and even still AFTER Heavy Weapons/Twin Blade and Blunt and likely even after any other forms of penetration available. That 5% is pitiful in and of itself, because its a percentage, a percentage that at near max value, assuming the target has 30k resists only reduces armor by 1500, meanwhile Necromancer reduces armor by a flat 1500 at all times whether the target has 5k or 30k. Make the 5% a flat 1500 penetration while slotted, or increase the percentage value. Also, consider the value of this ability doing Poison or Disease damage over physical, there are a number of medium armor sets that see very limited use because its difficult to build for them. If you made Surprise Attack do Poison or Disease the Swamp Raider set would find more value, and I think we can all agree that Medium armor could use more viable sets.
Teleport Strike/Mark Target
Revert Teleport Strike, leave unchanged as it was prior to 5.0.0. Remove the Minor Vulnerability from Teleport Strike and Instead put it onto one of Mark Targets morphs, so that Mark Target has more incentive. As is, Mark Target just isn't viable. It deals 0 damage, and costs a decent amount of Magika for a debuff that can can be acquired through Pierce Armor, which is a cheaper ability that actually does damage.
Grim Focus
No longer granting Minor Berserk is acceptable, however the fact that it has a cost, no longer buffs you in any way, and still requires 5 Light attacks for a damage and heal proc of debatable value, makes this ability nonviable. Instead, I suggest adding Major Brutality to Relentless Focus and Major Sorcery to Merciless Resolve and removing both of those buffs from Drain Power and its morphs. In fact, I'd argue that this is the single best change you could do for all Nightblades. Doing so would add more viability to solo Dualwield/Bow Nightblades not looking to use Hidden Blade, or potions, and to all Magika Nightblades not looking to use Entropy. It also justifies the cost of Grim Focus, and makes it a viable skill to continue running.
Dark Cloak
I would consider reworking this ability to be more like Coagulated Blood with a flat heal that is increased the lower your health is, although I personally feel the pre 5.0.0 Dark Cloak was fine as it was.
That's really all that I can think of at the moment. Let me and others know what you think about my suggestions and Nightblade changes in general.
Edited by Azaduur on April 28, 2019 3:36PM Incapacitating Strike
All that needed to be done to this skill was the replacement of Major Defile with Minor Defile and working it so that the 6 seconds of Minor Defile are only applied if the ability is cast with 120 Ultimate or more. Minor Mangle on Incapacitating Strike is insulting, it has no discernible value. It only lasts for as long as the target is stunned by the Incapacitating Strike which is often less than 2 seconds, and as far as i can tell it is only applied AFTER the damage of Incap is applied, so if a target has 20k max health, and your Incap hits for 10k, than their max health is reduced to 18k for all of >2 seconds. Minor Mangle will only do damage if for some reason your Incap did less than 10% of a targets max health and only if your target is above 90% health. It's simply of no value, I find it insulting that it was even added.
Surprise Attack
The removal of Major Fracture is acceptable enough, though expecting people to find space on their full ability bars for an ability that does zero damage (Mark Target) and has no stamina morph is laughable. The 5% armor reduction on a target when used from the flank is pitiful. Assuming a target has 30k resistances, 5% is a pitiful 1500, and that's assuming the maximum value is applied, which I have no reason to believe is the case, as with all other forms of armor penetration, I can only assume it is calculated AFTER Major/Minor Fracture, AFTER Crushing, AFTER Spriggan's, AFTER Lover Mundus, and even still AFTER Heavy Weapons/Twin Blade and Blunt and likely even after any other forms of penetration available. That 5% is pitiful in and of itself, because its a percentage, a percentage that at near max value, assuming the target has 30k resists only reduces armor by 1500, meanwhile Necromancer reduces armor by a flat 1500 at all times whether the target has 5k or 30k. Make the 5% a flat 1500 penetration while slotted, or increase the percentage value. Also, consider the value of this ability doing Poison or Disease damage over physical, there are a number of medium armor sets that see very limited use because its difficult to build for them. If you made Surprise Attack do Poison or Disease the Swamp Raider set would find more value, and I think we can all agree that Medium armor could use more viable sets.
Teleport Strike/Mark Target
Revert Teleport Strike, leave unchanged as it was prior to 5.0.0. Remove the Minor Vulnerability from Teleport Strike and Instead put it onto one of Mark Targets morphs, so that Mark Target has more incentive. As is, Mark Target just isn't viable. It deals 0 damage, and costs a decent amount of Magika for a debuff that can can be acquired through Pierce Armor, which is a cheaper ability that actually does damage.
Grim Focus
No longer granting Minor Berserk is acceptable, however the fact that it has a cost, no longer buffs you in any way, and still requires 5 Light attacks for a damage and heal proc of debatable value, makes this ability nonviable. Instead, I suggest adding Major Brutality to Relentless Focus and Major Sorcery to Merciless Resolve and removing both of those buffs from Drain Power and its morphs. In fact, I'd argue that this is the single best change you could do for all Nightblades. Doing so would add more viability to solo Dualwield/Bow Nightblades not looking to use Hidden Blade, or potions, and to all Magika Nightblades not looking to use Entropy. It also justifies the cost of Grim Focus, and makes it a viable skill to continue running.
Dark Cloak
I would consider reworking this ability to be more like Coagulated Blood with a flat heal that is increased the lower your health is, although I personally feel the pre 5.0.0 Dark Cloak was fine as it was.
That's really all that I can think of at the moment. Let me and others know what you think about my suggestions and Nightblade changes in general.
9
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Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭Imo they are nerfing too much all.at once. It's going to be a devastating hit.5 -
chetter_hummin✭✭✭Have to say I love the hypocrisy. U don't care about balance. How about getting major fracture just as all other classes get? Slot a skill that only does that. On Stam sorc for example major fracture can be obtain only by ransack or sets. On Stam plar same. On Stam dk most people don't even use noxious as it's clunky but even that is a low dot can is used on pvp only for fracture. Stam wardens needs to have fracture removed as well from high damage ability like subterranean.
Now u can stack 5% with major fracture. Just need to not be lazy and use ransack for example.
Your complain is basically I'm to lazy to adapt and get out of conform zone when issues can be addressed.3 -
Azaduur✭✭chetter_hummin wrote: »Have to say I love the hypocrisy. U don't care about balance. How about getting major fracture just as all other classes get? Slot a skill that only does that. On Stam sorc for example major fracture can be obtain only by ransack or sets. On Stam plar same. On Stam dk most people don't even use noxious as it's clunky but even that is a low dot can is used on pvp only for fracture. Stam wardens needs to have fracture removed as well from high damage ability like subterranean.
Now u can stack 5% with major fracture. Just need to not be lazy and use ransack for example.
Your complain is basically I'm to lazy to adapt and get out of conform zone when issues can be addressed.
Calling me a hypocrite, lazy, and someone who doesnt care about balance is reaching. Ransack doesn't "only" apply Major Fracture, it also deals damage, and grants you Minor Resolve. So if your argument is that using Mark Target to obtain Major Fracture is justified in its cost and overall lack of utility because abilities like "Ransack" "only does that", than I'd have to say you're not actually here to make valid points. Furthermore the fact that you would insult me three times, but only bring an argument of questionable validity shows me that you are more interested in punishing existing Nightblade players than actually discussing how to make the class not as powerful as live, but not as weak as PTS, normally that is called "balance", no?Edited by Azaduur on April 28, 2019 6:10PM9 -
frostz417✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭“I’m not defending the class”
*proceeds to cry about how the nerfs are too much*
Nightblades haven’t been touched since 1.6 as compared to other classes getting completely shafted while nightblades remain on top. Deal with this nerf it was long coming and is deserved.4 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭About Dark Cloak, I never understood that why they changed it, so it no longer provides what the base morph did - Invisibility.
It used to be a defensive morph of cloak, while the other (Shadowy Disguise) is offensive morph.
I think they should revert that and make a NB healing skill out of one of the Malevolent Offering morph.
That would make sense:
- Healthy Offering - heals an ally.
- Shrewd Offering - heals yourself.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on April 28, 2019 6:19PM3 -
Azaduur✭✭“I’m not defending the class”
*proceeds to cry about how the nerfs are too much*
Nightblades haven’t been touched since 1.6 as compared to other classes getting completely shafted while nightblades remain on top. Deal with this nerf it was long coming and is deserved.
I did say I'm not defending what the class was. I'd like you to explain what it is about my ideas that you believe would make the class just as bad or worse than it was pre 5.0.0, instead of just accusing me of crying. I agree, the Nightblade class on live is too powerful, and what I'm suggesting is still a hefty nerf, I'm simply offering a different direction with which to take the class so that it retains an identity beyond Cloak. You don't have to agree with me, but I wonder if you really read my post, or if you just skimmed through the first paragraph and decided I was "crying" about NIghtblade nerfs.1 -
Azaduur✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »About Dark Cloak, I never understood that why they changed it, so it no longer provides what the base morph did - Invisibility.
It used to be a defensive morph of cloak, while the other (Shadowy Disguise) is offensive morph.
I think they should revert that and make a NB healing skill out of one of the Malevolent Offering morph.
That would make sense:
- Healthy Offering - heals an ally.
- Shrewd Offering - heals yourself.
Do you think it should cost magika if you pick the self heal morph, but still cost health if you use the "ally heal" morph? Or just both cost magika? I think it would be sort of cool to spend a bit of health immediately for a HoT that ultimately healed more than you spent. But I like to hear other people's actual ideas.0 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »About Dark Cloak, I never understood that why they changed it, so it no longer provides what the base morph did - Invisibility.
It used to be a defensive morph of cloak, while the other (Shadowy Disguise) is offensive morph.
I think they should revert that and make a NB healing skill out of one of the Malevolent Offering morph.
That would make sense:
- Healthy Offering - heals an ally.
- Shrewd Offering - heals yourself.
Do you think it should cost magika if you pick the self heal morph, but still cost health if you use the "ally heal" morph? Or just both cost magika? I think it would be sort of cool to spend a bit of health immediately for a HoT that ultimately healed more than you spent. But I like to hear other people's actual ideas.
I like the reverse of this: heal yourself for health immediately, but for a health DoT of the same value.
It would look something like this: heal yourself for [x] health immediately, but drain [x] health over 10 seconds. If the ability is recast within the duration, the cost is absorbed immediately.
It would be a nice temporary health bonus, providing health when you need it the most but also providing no lasting health, leaving NB tanks or PvPers still reliant on other sources of healing. This would give NB a nice panic heal in times of need that could not be abused by casting it repeatedly.Edited by twing1_ on April 28, 2019 6:54PM3 -
Azaduur✭✭@twing1_
I think that would actually be a pretty cool change. I dont see many people ever use Malevolent Offering at all, so any change that would generate some value would likely be welcome. I like how you made it so that it can't be spammed, a real noob trap, but with the potential to keep you alive in a tight spot.0 -
frostz417✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭“I’m not defending the class”
*proceeds to cry about how the nerfs are too much*
Nightblades haven’t been touched since 1.6 as compared to other classes getting completely shafted while nightblades remain on top. Deal with this nerf it was long coming and is deserved.
I did say I'm not defending what the class was. I'd like you to explain what it is about my ideas that you believe would make the class just as bad or worse than it was pre 5.0.0, instead of just accusing me of crying. I agree, the Nightblade class on live is too powerful, and what I'm suggesting is still a hefty nerf, I'm simply offering a different direction with which to take the class so that it retains an identity beyond Cloak. You don't have to agree with me, but I wonder if you really read my post, or if you just skimmed through the first paragraph and decided I was "crying" about NIghtblade nerfs.
Incap deserves to lose the defile because that ability is far to overloaded.
Also do you even realize what minor mangle does? 10% health reduction is a lot.
Suprise Attack should’ve never had fracture. Honestly whoever thought major fracture attached to a spammable was a good idea is crazy. It is currently the most overpowered spammable in the entire. People are able to hit 12k+ tooltips on it without even much thinking. No other spammable in the game hits as hard as surprise attack. The change is good and honestly crying about 5% resistance reduction is just absurd. It’s already the hardest hitting spammable in the game.
Mark target/Teleport strike.
Honestly mark target is such a zergling tool and isn’t even that beneficial. I can partially agree it needs some sort of rework and could use something else especially with the high cost it has.
Teleport strike... yes I will agree the minor vulnerability shouldn’t have been added to this ability. Gap closers are already detrimental to small scale players since gap closer snares somehow can go through snare immunity and this ability has little to no uses fighting outnumbered. It’s literally just a zergling tool. So I will agree with you on this point, they need to change.
Grim focus. The hardest hitting ability in the entire game. I don’t want to hear any cryBlade say crystal fragments hit harder. Tooltip comparisons have already been made and grim focus hits harder. . Minor bezerk removal was good because NB is completely damage carried. I will put some bias aside and say they shouldn’t have lost the minor recovery given from this ability but that’s about it.
Dark cloak should scale off of max magic and spell damage and operate like coagulating blood. It doesn’t need to heal for max health because heavy armor cancer stamblades already abuse this.
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twing1_✭✭✭✭Incap deserves to lose the defile because that ability is far to overloaded.
Also do you even realize what minor mangle does? 10% health reduction is a lot.
Mangle on incap is currently useless.
Right now, mangle is being applied after the damage of incap. As such, mangle's uselefulness is severely limited. Let's take an enemy with 50k health for example, and assume that incap strike does 10k dmg.
Using incap strike on this enemy would reduce his current health to 40k. Then, mangle would reduce his max health to 45k. But this reduction is only decreasing health that has already been depleted by the damage of incap itself.
Even if they made it so that mangle applies before the damage of incap, the same issue would persist with any damage you've done to the enemy before you hit them with incap. In this scenario, with mangle applying before the damage of incap, you would have to use incap on an enemy before you have already done 10% of their max health in damage by other means in order for mangle to have any useful effect. Even then, as soon as the stun is broken, mangle is lost.
In PvE mangle is more useful because it can reduce the health of enemy bosses by potentially millions of hp. This of course is entirely dependent on 100% uptime on mangle, which given the ultimate cost of incap and the short duration of mangle, is not sustainable, again rendering mangle on incap useless.
Also, if dark cloak scaled off of max mag and spell damage, NB tanks would be unable to use it effectively. It was introduced for the NB tanking community, and as such it should benefit that community.Edited by twing1_ on April 28, 2019 7:24PM2 -
Azaduur✭✭“I’m not defending the class”
*proceeds to cry about how the nerfs are too much*
Nightblades haven’t been touched since 1.6 as compared to other classes getting completely shafted while nightblades remain on top. Deal with this nerf it was long coming and is deserved.
I did say I'm not defending what the class was. I'd like you to explain what it is about my ideas that you believe would make the class just as bad or worse than it was pre 5.0.0, instead of just accusing me of crying. I agree, the Nightblade class on live is too powerful, and what I'm suggesting is still a hefty nerf, I'm simply offering a different direction with which to take the class so that it retains an identity beyond Cloak. You don't have to agree with me, but I wonder if you really read my post, or if you just skimmed through the first paragraph and decided I was "crying" about NIghtblade nerfs.
Incap deserves to lose the defile because that ability is far to overloaded.
Also do you even realize what minor mangle does? 10% health reduction is a lot.
Suprise Attack should’ve never had fracture. Honestly whoever thought major fracture attached to a spammable was a good idea is crazy. It is currently the most overpowered spammable in the entire. People are able to hit 12k+ tooltips on it without even much thinking. No other spammable in the game hits as hard as surprise attack. The change is good and honestly crying about 5% resistance reduction is just absurd. It’s already the hardest hitting spammable in the game.
Mark target/Teleport strike.
Honestly mark target is such a zergling tool and isn’t even that beneficial. I can partially agree it needs some sort of rework and could use something else especially with the high cost it has.
Teleport strike... yes I will agree the minor vulnerability shouldn’t have been added to this ability. Gap closers are already detrimental to small scale players since gap closer snares somehow can go through snare immunity and this ability has little to no uses fighting outnumbered. It’s literally just a zergling tool. So I will agree with you on this point, they need to change.
Grim focus. The hardest hitting ability in the entire game. I don’t want to hear any cryBlade say crystal fragments hit harder. Tooltip comparisons have already been made and grim focus hits harder. . Minor bezerk removal was good because NB is completely damage carried. I will put some bias aside and say they shouldn’t have lost the minor recovery given from this ability but that’s about it.
Dark cloak should scale off of max magic and spell damage and operate like coagulating blood. It doesn’t need to heal for max health because heavy armor cancer stamblades already abuse this.
Much more insightful, thank you.
I do indeed realize what Minor Mangle does, I explained the mechanics of it in my post to an extent. My problem with Minor Mangle on Incap is that as I understand it, the Minor Mangle debuff only lasts for the duration of the stun, and since all Minor Mangle does is reduce the maximum health of an affected target by 10% (not bosses of course), this debuff is valueless, because Incap should theoretically always do at least 10% of an enemy's health bar, therefore the Minor Mangle debuff will go completely unnoticed.
You've sold me, Surprise Attack should have no form of penetration, because that 5% equates to less than 1500 penetration likely 100% of the time it is applied, therefore it really should just be removed, because it does so little, you might as well just roll dodge as a Bosmer for 1500 armor penetration. As far as it hitting hard, its a melee spammable, there aren't too many single target melee spammables that dont apply DoTs in the game to compare it to, the only other I can really think of that compares is Dragonknight lava whip, which also hits rather hard and can heal. Its difficult to say how much damage a single target melee ability that doesn't apply a DoT should do, because it does still force you to be in range and therefore in danger, as opposed to ranged attacks.
Grim Focus does hit hard, and its recent travel time buff will ensure it is more dangerous than before, however it still requires resource to cast and more resource to use once proc'd, Minor Endurance wont justify running this ability. Regarding Crystal Fragments doing more damage, I haven't done or seen the tests, so i wouldn't know, what I do know is that I've never seen two Assassin's Scourge or Assassin's Will from the same player in my own death recap, but have on plenty of occasions seen more than one Crystal Fragments from the same player in my own death recap. Grim Focus may hit harder, but Crystal Fragments can theoretically hit more times within the same window.
Dark cloak heals off of max health on live, and on PTS, im saying that on PTS, currently the healing is underwhelming given the cost of the ability, and while I can see how heavy armor could make strong value of a heal based off of max health, calling it abuse really only applies to PvP, as the ability allowed Nightblade tanks to at least attempt to compete in the Dragonknight tank meta, where as now, the ability no longer feels viable for any build.Edited by Azaduur on April 28, 2019 7:30PM1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What happens if you use mangle first then incap?Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭What happens if you use mangle first then incap?
You can't because mangle is tied to incap. But if mangle applied before the damage portion of incap, something like this would happen:
Assume enemy has 50k health and incap does 10k damage.
Hitting this enemy with incap would reduce max hp to 45k, then damage of incap would reduce current health to 35k. So using incap on a full health enemy would increase the damage so to speak of incap by 10% of their max health.
But this is assuming incap is the first skill used and that the enemy's health is full. Let's say you first damage and enemy with ambush for 5k damage, in order to gap close the enemy.
The targets current health drops to 45k from the ambush damage. Then, incap is used to follow up. Mangle reduces the targets max health to 45k (does not affect current health because current health is already at 45k) and then incap damage takes the enemy's current health to 35k. Mangle effectively does not do any damage, and is completely useless.
Actually, the only thing mangle is doing in this scenario is reducing the enemy's execute range. Instead of poison injection doing bonus damage to the enemy when they have 25k health remaining, it would do bonus damage to them even later when they have 22.5k health remaining (50% of 45 k is less than 50% of 50k).Edited by twing1_ on April 28, 2019 7:41PM2 -
frostz417✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Incap deserves to lose the defile because that ability is far to overloaded.
Also do you even realize what minor mangle does? 10% health reduction is a lot.
Mangle on incap is currently useless.
Right now, mangle is being applied after the damage of incap. As such, mangle's uselefulness is severely limited. Let's take an enemy with 50k health for example, and assume that incap strike does 10k dmg.
Using incap strike on this enemy would reduce his current health to 40k. Then, mangle would reduce his max health to 45k. But this reduction is only decreasing health that has already been depleted by the damage of incap itself.
Even if they made it so that mangle applies before the damage of incap, the same issue would persist with any damage you've done to the enemy before you hit them with incap. In this scenario, with mangle applying before the damage of incap, you would have to use incap on an enemy before you have already done 10% of their max health in damage by other means in order for mangle to have any useful effect. Even then, as soon as the stun is broken, mangle is lost.
In PvE mangle is more useful because it can reduce the health of enemy bosses by potentially millions of hp. This of course is entirely dependent on 100% uptime on mangle, which given the ultimate cost of incap and the short duration of mangle, is not sustainable, again rendering mangle on incap useless.
Also, if dark cloak scaled off of max mag and spell damage, NB tanks would be unable to use it effectively. It was introduced for the NB tanking community, and as such it should benefit that community.
If scaling off of max mag isn’t a solution for tanks because I can understand why NB’s want something for tank. It is tricky to find a proper solution because it can easily be abused.
Maybe buff the heal on refreshing path and make it scale off max mag&spell damage while letting dark cloak heal a certain amount of max health. So magblades have better survivability1 -
Azaduur✭✭@Iskiab
The only other ability I know of that can apply Minor Mangle is the Impulse morph "Pulsar", it applies it as well as damage in an area around the caster for 30+ seconds. Even in this regard, it is more viable to run Pulsar as it is not an ultimate and can be constantly reapplied if need be, and must be cleansed or waited out. Meanwhile the Minor Mangle debuff applied by Incap only lasts for as long as the stun, and I'm not even sure if Minor Mangle is applied if Incap fails to stun the target.0 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭chetter_hummin wrote: »Have to say I love the hypocrisy. U don't care about balance. How about getting major fracture just as all other classes get? Slot a skill that only does that. On Stam sorc for example major fracture can be obtain only by ransack or sets. On Stam plar same. On Stam dk most people don't even use noxious as it's clunky but even that is a low dot can is used on pvp only for fracture. Stam wardens needs to have fracture removed as well from high damage ability like subterranean.
Now u can stack 5% with major fracture. Just need to not be lazy and use ransack for example.
Your complain is basically I'm to lazy to adapt and get out of conform zone when issues can be addressed.
It's a nightblade. The classes you mentioned not only have access to major fracture but one is a tank the other a healer, at their core. Stam sorcs are insane enough lol.0 -
Azaduur✭✭Incap deserves to lose the defile because that ability is far to overloaded.
Also do you even realize what minor mangle does? 10% health reduction is a lot.
Mangle on incap is currently useless.
Right now, mangle is being applied after the damage of incap. As such, mangle's uselefulness is severely limited. Let's take an enemy with 50k health for example, and assume that incap strike does 10k dmg.
Using incap strike on this enemy would reduce his current health to 40k. Then, mangle would reduce his max health to 45k. But this reduction is only decreasing health that has already been depleted by the damage of incap itself.
Even if they made it so that mangle applies before the damage of incap, the same issue would persist with any damage you've done to the enemy before you hit them with incap. In this scenario, with mangle applying before the damage of incap, you would have to use incap on an enemy before you have already done 10% of their max health in damage by other means in order for mangle to have any useful effect. Even then, as soon as the stun is broken, mangle is lost.
In PvE mangle is more useful because it can reduce the health of enemy bosses by potentially millions of hp. This of course is entirely dependent on 100% uptime on mangle, which given the ultimate cost of incap and the short duration of mangle, is not sustainable, again rendering mangle on incap useless.
Also, if dark cloak scaled off of max mag and spell damage, NB tanks would be unable to use it effectively. It was introduced for the NB tanking community, and as such it should benefit that community.
If scaling off of max mag isn’t a solution for tanks because I can understand why NB’s want something for tank. It is tricky to find a proper solution because it can easily be abused.
Maybe buff the heal on refreshing path and make it scale off max mag&spell damage while letting dark cloak heal a certain amount of max health. So magblades have better survivability
You are right, it can be abused, that is an issue, I wonder if the issue is with just Dark Cloak though. Green Dragon Blood can heal for a massive amount, easily the strongest non-ultimate self heal in the game for tanks, perhaps the real issue is percentage based healing. We already know that ZoS seem reluctant to rely on percentage based values, as they already removed them all from class passives in an attempt to fight power creep, maybe all heals that heal based on max health need to be revised.2 -
Joosef_Kivikilpi✭✭✭✭@twing1_
I think that would actually be a pretty cool change. I dont see many people ever use Malevolent Offering at all, so any change that would generate some value would likely be welcome. I like how you made it so that it can't be spammed, a real noob trap, but with the potential to keep you alive in a tight spot.
Nightblade Healer here. Can confirm that I love malevolent offering, especially when you have duo Nightblade healer or a Templar and Nightblade healer. Makes a crazy healer combo.1 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »@twing1_
I think that would actually be a pretty cool change. I dont see many people ever use Malevolent Offering at all, so any change that would generate some value would likely be welcome. I like how you made it so that it can't be spammed, a real noob trap, but with the potential to keep you alive in a tight spot.
Nightblade Healer here. Can confirm that I love malevolent offering, especially when you have duo Nightblade healer or a Templar and Nightblade healer. Makes a crazy healer combo.
But isn't one morph largely unused? In my experience, NB healers largely choose healthy offering over shrewd offering, because the cost of the skill can easily be healed through and the reduction of cost that shrewd offering provides is totally unnecessary.
If this is the case, shrewd offering would be a good candidate for the rework.Edited by twing1_ on April 29, 2019 12:43AM1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think that NB should be dealt dmg while in cloak and not supress DoT, without becoming visible. There shouldnt be an anti invisibility tools in the game.
Stealth and escape. Not tankiness.
Let's make that a starting pointEdited by GeorgeBlack on April 29, 2019 12:20AM0 -
Azaduur✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I think that NB should be dealt dmg while in cloak and not supress DoT, without becoming visible. There shouldnt be an anti invisibility tools in the game.
Stealth and escape. Not tankiness.
Let's make that a starting point
I wouldn't be opposed to making it so that you still take DoT damage while invisible without it revealing you, but if Cloak gave you an unrevealable invisibility status, all that would occur is the mass generation of salt. Everything needs a counter, preferably a number of them.1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread is a mess. It has some good suggestions but there are also really crazy nonsense ones to so I’ll just move onto the next threadFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info1 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I think that NB should be dealt dmg while in cloak and not supress DoT, without becoming visible. There shouldnt be an anti invisibility tools in the game.
Stealth and escape. Not tankiness.
Let's make that a starting point
Dots are suppressed because they broke stealth years ago. I think It'd be fair to also suppress healing in cloak so it’s not a free damage suppression tool, similar to mist1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I think that NB should be dealt dmg while in cloak and not supress DoT, without becoming visible. There shouldnt be an anti invisibility tools in the game.
Stealth and escape. Not tankiness.
Let's make that a starting point
Dots are suppressed because they broke stealth years ago. I think It'd be fair to also suppress healing in cloak so it’s not a free damage suppression tool, similar to mist
Take it from here then. Lemme add increase cost per Cloak cast so that it is used as a surprise or escape tool, and not a reset combat ability?Edited by GeorgeBlack on April 29, 2019 2:15AM0 -
Dr_Ganknstein✭✭✭✭✭
✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I think that NB should be dealt dmg while in cloak and not supress DoT, without becoming visible. There shouldnt be an anti invisibility tools in the game.
Stealth and escape. Not tankiness.
Let's make that a starting point
Also shields shouldn't absorb poison or bleed damage over time effects. That just doesn't make sense. Imagine King Joffrey casting shields after he was poisoned.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »@twing1_
I think that would actually be a pretty cool change. I dont see many people ever use Malevolent Offering at all, so any change that would generate some value would likely be welcome. I like how you made it so that it can't be spammed, a real noob trap, but with the potential to keep you alive in a tight spot.
Nightblade Healer here. Can confirm that I love malevolent offering, especially when you have duo Nightblade healer or a Templar and Nightblade healer. Makes a crazy healer combo.
But isn't one morph largely unused? In my experience, NB healers largely choose healthy offering over shrewd offering, because the cost of the skill can easily be healed through and the reduction of cost that shrewd offering provides is totally unnecessary.
If this is the case, shrewd offering would be a good candidate for the rework.
Yup, this is correct. Either morph is okay in pvp, I liked shrewd for a bit to limit the dot but switched to healthy for minor mending. I’d say it’s a preference thing and they’re both okay.
In PvE Healthy Offering is better, so all Nightblade healers in pve and pvp that I know of run Healthy Offering instead of Shrewd.Edited by Iskiab on April 29, 2019 2:51AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
KatySpirit✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »About Dark Cloak, I never understood that why they changed it, so it no longer provides what the base morph did - Invisibility.
It used to be a defensive morph of cloak, while the other (Shadowy Disguise) is offensive morph.
I think they should revert that and make a NB healing skill out of one of the Malevolent Offering morph.
That would make sense:
- Healthy Offering - heals an ally.
- Shrewd Offering - heals yourself.
Do you think it should cost magika if you pick the self heal morph, but still cost health if you use the "ally heal" morph? Or just both cost magika? I think it would be sort of cool to spend a bit of health immediately for a HoT that ultimately healed more than you spent. But I like to hear other people's actual ideas.
I like the reverse of this: heal yourself for health immediately, but for a health DoT of the same value.
It would look something like this: heal yourself for [x] health immediately, but drain [x] health over 10 seconds. If the ability is recast within the duration, the cost is absorbed immediately.
It would be a nice temporary health bonus, providing health when you need it the most but also providing no lasting health, leaving NB tanks or PvPers still reliant on other sources of healing. This would give NB a nice panic heal in times of need that could not be abused by casting it repeatedly.
Not a good idea for tanking but sounds fine for PVPers. For tanking, Dark Cloak as a healing move would still be needed (and the healing morph of Cloak is the only reason to use it in PVE anyway). Tanks don't run away and turn invisible and heal themselves. To expect tanks to rely on a skill like that is very out of sync with the rest of the classes: Dragon blood, clannfear, and warden's icy wind do not drain health away after casting. In fact, warden's applies a heal over time after the burst. I would like to see Dark Cloak do something like warden's, a burst in the first second and then heal over time for the remaining time of the 8 seconds they are planning to lengthen it to.Tanks: Warden, Nightblade, Dragonknight
Healers: Nightblade, Templar, Warden, Sorcerer, Dragonknight, Necromancer
DPS: Magsorc, Magblade, Magplar, MagDK, Stamblade, StamNecro1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I think that NB should be dealt dmg while in cloak and not supress DoT, without becoming visible. There shouldnt be an anti invisibility tools in the game.
Stealth and escape. Not tankiness.
Let's make that a starting point
Also shields shouldn't absorb poison or bleed damage over time effects. That just doesn't make sense. Imagine King Joffrey casting shields after he was poisoned.
I agree.1