Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
What would inspire more people to pick tank role?
-
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
But Zenimax itself treats healers and tanks as "dps-enhancing-tools". If you would remove all that buffing and debuffing by tanks, tanking in ESO would boil down to holding down the right mouse-button. Same goes for the healer, it would boil down to healing springs and an emergency healing now and then. Healing and Tanking totally revolves around the DDs.Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
I was a main-tank in a semi-progressive guild in WoW for years, and when I started playing a tank in ESO, I could think about dozens of builds enhancing my survivability. The excitement vanished when I heard that all those tanking sets are pretty much useless in groups...Edited by Facefister on April 27, 2019 9:33PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
But Zenimax itself treats healers and tanks as "dps-enhancing-tools". If you would remove all that buffing and debuffing by tanks, tanking in ESO would boil down to holding down the right mouse-button. Same goes for the healer, it would boil down to healing springs and an emergency healing now and then. Healing and Tanking totally revolves around the DDs.Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
I was a main-tank in a semi-progressive guild in WoW for years, and when I started playing a tank in ESO, I could think about dozens of builds enhancing my survivability. The excitement vanished when I heard that all those tanking sets are pretty much useless in groups...
I don't know why people say this.
Tanks and healers have rotations just like DPS do. This idea that tanks and healers would have nothing to do unless they were buffing DPS just isn't my experience with the game.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 9:40PM0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Where did I write that tanks and healers don't have a "rotation"? The majority of things you do is about buffing the group DPS. Survival is trivial when you remotely understand your role.Edited by Facefister on April 27, 2019 9:42PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »Where did I write that tanks and healers don't have a "rotation"?
It gives that impression.
What else was your post meant to imply if not that healers and tanks would have little to do if not for the buffing DPS?0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Healers: Take out blockade, drain, horn and shards/orbs out of rotation you're left with: Springs, and sometimes a burst heal.Facefister wrote: »Where did I write that tanks and healers don't have a "rotation"?
It gives that impression.
What else was your post meant to imply if not that healers and tanks would have little to do if not for the buffing DPS?0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »The majority of things you do is about buffing the group DPS. Survival is trivial when you remotely understand your role.
Not really.
For example: there are plenty of things I can do with my healer and tank that do not involve buffing the group DPS. I'm not taking a dig at those who choose to play that way, but that isn't remotely the only way to play.
This idea that unless you spend your time buffing DPS you aren't playing your role correctly really needs to die out already because it's simply just not true.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 9:46PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »
Healers: Take out blockade, drain, horn and shards/orbs out of rotation you're left with: Springs, and sometimes a burst heal.Facefister wrote: »Where did I write that tanks and healers don't have a "rotation"?
It gives that impression.
What else was your post meant to imply if not that healers and tanks would have little to do if not for the buffing DPS?
Or perhaps I would prefer to use rapid regeneration, ritual of retribution, channeling focus.... etc.
As I say, there is more than one way to play and not all of them involve buffing DPS.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 9:48PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »Like what?
Refer to my above post. I give you some examples a healer may use in a rotation besides the spells you mention.
Not to mention the healer or tank may actually want to do a little bit of damage on their own instead of buffing other characters so they can do more. There is always that possibility as well. A lot of tanks and healers I know actually have their own damage rotation that they use on top of their tanking and healing ones.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 9:52PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
But it does address the major point.
His point was a lot of traditional tanks avoid tanking on this game because they don't like to be limited to mere "Dps enhancement tools". If that were no longer the case - this game would attract more of the traditional following that usually play as tanks thus equaling more people playing as actual tanks (which is the major point of this thread).
In many ways, the DPS players on this game are in essence their own problem - because one of the reasons so many people avoid the other roles is because of the unreasonable demands they make of others so they can parse higher on DPS charts. This is turn makes their own queue times much longer.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to me tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 10:18PM1 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
But it does address the major point.
His point was a lot of traditional tanks avoid tanking on this game because they don't like to be limited to mere "Dps enhancement tools". If that were no longer the case - this game would attract more of the traditional following that usually play as tanks thus equaling more people playing actual tanks (which is the major point of this thread).
In many ways, the DPS players on this game are in essence their own problem - because the reason so many people avoid the other roles is because of the unreasonable demands they make of others so they can parse higher on DPS charts. This is turn makes their own queue times much longer.
You do not get more tanks by making some people quit tanking and replacing them with other people. Especially if it involves massive gamechaning adjustments to content.
And another point I disagree on is that DDs with high demands are lacking tanks. They really don't. At the high end tanks are fairly available and are happy to join good groups. It's the lack of tanks in groupfinder where no amount of support can't help your 10k DPS light attack heroes which is the problem.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
But it does address the major point.
His point was a lot of traditional tanks avoid tanking on this game because they don't like to be limited to mere "Dps enhancement tools". If that were no longer the case - this game would attract more of the traditional following that usually play as tanks thus equaling more people playing actual tanks (which is the major point of this thread).
In many ways, the DPS players on this game are in essence their own problem - because the reason so many people avoid the other roles is because of the unreasonable demands they make of others so they can parse higher on DPS charts. This is turn makes their own queue times much longer.
You do not get more tanks by making some people quit tanking and replacing them with other people. Especially if it involves massive gamechaning adjustments to content.
And another point I disagree on is that DDs with high demands are lacking tanks. They really don't. At the high end tanks are fairly available and are happy to join good groups. It's the lack of tanks in groupfinder where no amount of support can't help your 10k DPS light attack heroes which is the problem.
I don't understand your point.
Tanks who enjoy playing as "DPS enhancing tools" could still play that way if they wish. So no one would be chased away from tanking by merely allowing tanks to play more traditionally if they wanted to, which is all that poster was asking for.
Secondly, it's incorrect to believe that endgame biases toward more traditional play styles do not carry over into the activity finder as well. It does - and many players who sign up for pugs expect those very specific play styles preferred by their guilds to be replicated in pugs. DPS can be extremely demanding of other players - even in groups formed through the activity finder. That kind of behavior is not limited to endgame raids.
As an example: I remember back when any healer who dared not to use repentance to restore the stamina of others was kicked from the group for foolishly believing they were good for anything else. Thankfully they finally got rid of that nonsense by simply removing the group effect from the ability.
In many ways the designers of this game are responsible for a lot of this foolishness for choosing not to include an actual support class into the mix. They should have - and I wish they would redesign their game to include one. It would be worth the effort.
Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 10:23PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify that particular point of view. Ask anyone who tanks or heals and they can tell you - more defense can still be a benefit if even if it is not necessarily needed to clear the content.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 10:30PM1 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it. This argument would only have merit if the enemy you was fighting didn't fight back while you attempted to kill it. Maybe if all the content on this game were just training dummies this argument would make sense. But they aren't training dummies, and there is more to the fight than simply killing it as fast as possible.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS is over-emphasized at the extent of everything else.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 10:35PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.
And to kill it you just need the minimal required amount of damage as well. So no, we don't agree at all actually.
You are applying a different standard to defense than you do to damage. It's ok according to you for damage dealers to stack more damage is needed but if a tank stacks more defense than is needed that's suddenly considered wrong. It doesn't get any more contradictory than that.
Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 10:44PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.
And to kill it you just need the minimal required amount of damage as well. So no, we don't agree at all.
You are applying a different standard to defense than you do to damage.
I am applying a different standard because they are indeed fundamentally different. See, we are still in agreement.
It sitll boils down to "you can kill something better but you can't survive something better".0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.
And to kill it you just need the minimal required amount of damage as well. So no, we don't agree at all.
You are applying a different standard to defense than you do to damage.
I am applying a different standard because they are indeed fundamentally different. See, we are still in agreement.
It sitll boils down to "you can kill something better but you can't survive something better".
But you can survive something better. Ask any tank and they will tell you there is value in increasing your defense past the bare minimum you need to survive.
So your statement is based on an obviously false premise.
As I added in my last post - what your argument boils down to is it's ok for damage dealers to stack more damage than is needed but if a tank stacks more defense than is needed that's suddenly considered wrong. It doesn't get any more contradictory than that. It's just an obvious double standard.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 11:16PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.
And to kill it you just need the minimal required amount of damage as well. So no, we don't agree at all.
You are applying a different standard to defense than you do to damage.
I am applying a different standard because they are indeed fundamentally different. See, we are still in agreement.
It sitll boils down to "you can kill something better but you can't survive something better".
But you can survive something better....
So your statement is based on an obviously false premise.
As I added in my last post - what your argument boils down to is it's according to you for damage dealers to stack more damage is needed but if a tank stacks more defense than is needed that's suddenly considered wrong. It doesn't get any more contradictory than that.
I'll try one more time but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree at the end.
You can't survive something better. Player A has 100 health and player B has 110 health. Boss hits them both for 90 damage. Player A survived the attack. Player B survived the attack. Final result is the same. They've both survived.
But you can damage something better. Player A deals 100 damage and player B deals 90 damage. They attack the boss. Player A did 100 damage and player B did 90 damage. Final result is that player A did more damage.
I am arguing just from a pure player skill point of view. The more damage DD does, the better of a player he is. But the less survivability tank needs, the better of a player he is. There is no contradiction.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.
And to kill it you just need the minimal required amount of damage as well. So no, we don't agree at all.
You are applying a different standard to defense than you do to damage.
I am applying a different standard because they are indeed fundamentally different. See, we are still in agreement.
It sitll boils down to "you can kill something better but you can't survive something better".
But you can survive something better....
So your statement is based on an obviously false premise.
As I added in my last post - what your argument boils down to is it's according to you for damage dealers to stack more damage is needed but if a tank stacks more defense than is needed that's suddenly considered wrong. It doesn't get any more contradictory than that.
I'll try one more time but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree at the end.
You can't survive something better. Player A has 100 health and player B has 110 health. Boss hits them both for 90 damage. Player A survived the attack. Player B survived the attack. Final result is the same. They've both survived.
But you can damage something better. Player A deals 100 damage and player B deals 90 damage. They attack the boss. Player A did 100 damage and player B did 90 damage. Final result is that player A did more damage.
I am arguing just from a pure player skill point of view. The more damage DD does, the better of a player he is. But the less survivability tank needs, the better of a player he is. There is no contradiction.
We'll have to agree to disagree for sure on this one.
Greater defense = more survivability. So you can certainly survive something better. That is the purpose of defense. Obviously if someone survives a boss attack and has 10,000 health left over opposed to 1 health left over there is an advantage to be had there...and they are not both considered equal merely because both of them survived.
And there is a contradiction. Because you don't consider killing a boss in 1 minute as opposed 2 minutes as being equal even though the boss died as an outcome in both situations. Yet that is the standard you apply to defense - where so long as both characters survive that's all that matters, regardless of the differences in damage they took or how much healing was required to help them recover.
Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 11:11PM0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.
And to kill it you just need the minimal required amount of damage as well. So no, we don't agree at all.
You are applying a different standard to defense than you do to damage.
I am applying a different standard because they are indeed fundamentally different. See, we are still in agreement.
It sitll boils down to "you can kill something better but you can't survive something better".
But you can survive something better....
So your statement is based on an obviously false premise.
As I added in my last post - what your argument boils down to is it's according to you for damage dealers to stack more damage is needed but if a tank stacks more defense than is needed that's suddenly considered wrong. It doesn't get any more contradictory than that.
I'll try one more time but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree at the end.
You can't survive something better. Player A has 100 health and player B has 110 health. Boss hits them both for 90 damage. Player A survived the attack. Player B survived the attack. Final result is the same. They've both survived.
But you can damage something better. Player A deals 100 damage and player B deals 90 damage. They attack the boss. Player A did 100 damage and player B did 90 damage. Final result is that player A did more damage.
I am arguing just from a pure player skill point of view. The more damage DD does, the better of a player he is. But the less survivability tank needs, the better of a player he is. There is no contradiction.
We'll have to agree to disagree for sure on this one.
Greater defense = more survivability. So you can certainly survive something better. That is the purpose of defense. Obviously if someone survives a boss attack and has 10,000 health left over opposed to 1 health left over there is an advantage to be had there...and they are not both considered equal merely because both of them survived.
And there is a contradiction here. Because you don't consider killing a boss in 1 minute as opposed 2 minutes as being equal even though the boss died as an outcome in both situations. Yet that is the standard you apply to defense - where so long as both characters survive that's all that matters, regardless of the differences in damage they took or how much healing was required to help them recover.
This is actually an interesting point you make about me judging damage in number scale and survivability in a more general sense but it sitll stands true and is how games judge them as well. I've used very simplified examples with numbers and they might not be the best way to convey my point.
Putting things at the absolute macro-scale:
Take a group with minimal required damage and minimal required survivability. They will kill the boss and stay alive.
Now let's add more survivability. The result will be the same. They will kill the boss and stay alive.
Now let's add damage instead of survivability. They will kill the boss and stay alive but do it faster.
This is where my opinion of additional survivability being redundant comes from. There really is no reason to have any extra beyond what you find comfortable.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Aulus_Claudius wrote: »As someone who loves tanking in pretty much every MMO, I'd say that tank-minded individuals would be a lot more likely to want to tank if players would quit treating tanks as DPS enhancement tools. Same with healers.
The tank's actual role is to hold aggro, be the "front line" when it comes to many boss mechanics, and minimize their own and the group's DTPS, taking as much incoming damage out of the group as possible. Looking at a table of HPS, DPS, and DTPS, a pure tank can and should blend out the first two completely - there are people whose job it is to care about those, and it's not the tank. That's what differentiates the archetypal tank from other roles and makes his role unique.
Unfortunately, everything in ESO boils down to DPS. DPS this, DPS that, it's all you ever hear anything about and all many groups seem to care about. There are vastly more DD players than any other role, so that's not surprising, but expecting every other role to turn around and bend over, sacrificing their enjoyment of the role they chose merely to enlarge someone else's e-peen, is simply not an environment most tanks want to exist in.
They get called "selfish" if they don't follow the DDs' orders regarding sets, abilities, glyphs, etc., although somehow the DDs aren't "selfish" for only caring about their own numbers, and when in fact what the traditional tank actually wants to do is sacrifice his own DPS to lower the DTPS and increase the survivability of his groupmates - about as far from selfish as you can get. I know a lot of tank mains from WoW and SWTOR who won't touch the role here for that reason.
So, tl;dr: Encourage tanks by increasing incentives to be tanky (ZOS' job - increase mitigatable damage done to tanks significantly), and by reducing social pressure to be a DPS slave and nothing more (community problem).
A well thought out post with a lot of good points but it misses a very major point. The question is how to get more people into tanking. Not how to swap current tanks for some other tanks. It is also not a feasible solution to make major changes to all tires of content.
Current tanks like tanking ESO because it is different from other games. I don't want to generate threat through some kind of rotation - I would play a DD if I wanted to run a rotation. I don't want to provide more survivability to the group because that means that I'm useless. ESO is not designed in such way. People don't die to mitigatable damage, they die to mechanics and gimmicky one shots and this is not something that is chaging anytime soon. I don't want more survivability. Being on the edge is what makes tanking fun. And seeing how you can shed more and more of that survivability because you are learning the fight and getting better and better is extremly satisfying. And being a "DPS-enhancement tool"? A metric that allows me to see how I'm becoming better. I provide better support, my group deals more damage. This a simple and enjoyable metric with instant feedback that makes something in our brains click. People like seeing big numbers.
Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Another contradiction is why is it ok for a DPS character to increase his or her damage even when it is not "needed" yet a tank character is suppose to just limit his or her own survivability to what is actually needed and spend all his excess on buffing other characters? It seems to be tanks ought to be able to pursue the extents of their defense if they wish just as some DPS characters like to pursue the extents of their offense.
Since you are such a big fan of editing things into your post let me address this paragrpah separately. Which I also did in the original post, btw.
I will even type it out again for you.Survivabiity is a pass/fail check. You can't survive something better. Damage on the other hand is an infinite scale. More damage always helps. And a tank who can stays alive in PA/Alkosh and provides more support is a better player than someone who had to run Armor Master and some other tanky set just to keep themselves from dying.
Survivability and damage are fundamentally different. Survivability is a pass/fail test. Damage is an infinite scale. In extremly simplified words If you are getting hit for 100 damage you will need 101 health. And having 200 health is a waste. You need the minimal required survivability to pass. Damage is never wasted though. More damage is always a benefit.
It's really that simple.
You could make that same argument in respect to damage. All you need is enough damage to clear the content, so you don't have to kill something faster either. So it's really no more different than survivability in that respect.
So that's a contradictory argument that assumes a different standard to justify your point of view.
The goal of every single piece of content in ESO is to kill something. Not to outsurvive something. More damage makes you achieve your goal faster. Simpe and objective metric.
Once an arena where you are supposed to stay alive for n-minutes is implemented we can come back to this discussion.
You also have to live through it as well. So no - the goal is not just to kill it.
This point of view is exactly what that poster was alluding to - where DPS over-emphasizes at the extent of everything else.
Yep, and to live through it you just need the minimal required amount of surivability. I'm glad that we agree.
Also I would like to point out that this minimal amount is not the same for everyone. For example some DDs really need 20k health to stay alive and some are absolutely fine barely scratching 16k. It works the same way for tanks. It's just that tanks who need less survivability provide more support and thus are preferred by groups. Can't really blame them for it though.
And to kill it you just need the minimal required amount of damage as well. So no, we don't agree at all.
You are applying a different standard to defense than you do to damage.
I am applying a different standard because they are indeed fundamentally different. See, we are still in agreement.
It sitll boils down to "you can kill something better but you can't survive something better".
But you can survive something better....
So your statement is based on an obviously false premise.
As I added in my last post - what your argument boils down to is it's according to you for damage dealers to stack more damage is needed but if a tank stacks more defense than is needed that's suddenly considered wrong. It doesn't get any more contradictory than that.
I'll try one more time but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree at the end.
You can't survive something better. Player A has 100 health and player B has 110 health. Boss hits them both for 90 damage. Player A survived the attack. Player B survived the attack. Final result is the same. They've both survived.
But you can damage something better. Player A deals 100 damage and player B deals 90 damage. They attack the boss. Player A did 100 damage and player B did 90 damage. Final result is that player A did more damage.
I am arguing just from a pure player skill point of view. The more damage DD does, the better of a player he is. But the less survivability tank needs, the better of a player he is. There is no contradiction.
We'll have to agree to disagree for sure on this one.
Greater defense = more survivability. So you can certainly survive something better. That is the purpose of defense. Obviously if someone survives a boss attack and has 10,000 health left over opposed to 1 health left over there is an advantage to be had there...and they are not both considered equal merely because both of them survived.
And there is a contradiction here. Because you don't consider killing a boss in 1 minute as opposed 2 minutes as being equal even though the boss died as an outcome in both situations. Yet that is the standard you apply to defense - where so long as both characters survive that's all that matters, regardless of the differences in damage they took or how much healing was required to help them recover.
This is actually an interesting point you make about me judging damage in number scale and survivability in a more general sense but it sitll stands true and is how games judge them as well. I've used very simplified examples with numbers and they might not be the best way to convey my point.
Putting things at the absolute macro-scale:
Take a group with minimal required damage and minimal required survivability. They will kill the boss and stay alive.
Now let's add more survivability. The result will be the same. They will kill the boss and stay alive.
Now let's add damage instead of survivability. They will kill the boss and stay alive but do it faster.
This is where my opinion of additional survivability being redundant comes from. There really is no reason to have any extra beyond what you find comfortable.
The problem I have with that argument is the result would be the same if you stack more damage than is needed as well. They will kill the boss and stay alive. The fact it may be faster doesn't change the end result and the goal set by the developers of this game is not to be as fast as possible.
So you apply a standard of outcome to defense yet don't apply that same standard of outcome to damage.
I have to go - but I would just ask you to consider that there is value in increasing defense past the bare minimum of what is needed to survive just as there is value in increasing damage past the bare minimum of what is needed to kill. Both styles of play have merit and help leave more room for error.
I need to get off here.Edited by Jeremy on April 27, 2019 11:27PM1 -
Mancombe_Nosehair✭✭✭✭✭With the right add-ons, tanking in dungeons and using other gear and skills when I do Ioverland is easy to do. I don't envy non pc players though.
I don't do trials, but I have done many vet dungeons.
I am pretty bad at dps, but even I can do 12 to 15k on a combat dummy, using the same cp allocation. I'm sure that others using my my methods could do much better at dps than me. I can do delves easily, world bosses solo not so much, but that is because of my own lack of skills, not gear etc.
I can just about solo dolmens, but skill factor (or lack of it) would mean that more talented players should do them much easier than I can.Edited by Mancombe_Nosehair on April 27, 2019 11:59PM0 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭But dps IS king in every MMO, you of course need healing and someone to hold aggro but at the end of the day not enough dps = death and wipe to enrage timers.
Tanks should do significant damage. 50% of a equally skilled and well built dps is a good number.
This would also make tanking appeal to more people since soloing doesnt suck anymore.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally I would play it more if there wasn't as many one shot mechanics.
Right now I don't want to deal with the stress of "you didn't block that one thing, now you're dead and it's a TPK"
But Zos wants tanks to pay attention to the fight. For several years now they have work to make changes to block cost and cost reduction, et al, to try to move away from the permablock builds.
They have also been moving to make tanking more active in other ways which is why dodge rolling is common for tanks in the newer top tier content.
Personally, I think it is good for tanking and the older and less challenging content is still pretty easy to tank, much of it is a snooze. But that part is just my opinion.
0 -
Tank damage is pathetic, so solo questing sucks. I liked the idea of making S&B scale with health, that's a great idea.1
