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Event PVP: Was this an exploit or no?
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Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭Since we're having a discussion if this is an exploit or not, here's my 2 cents.
So, we need to define what is an exploit:
For my argument, I'll use the previous definition from this thread, which was from Wikipedia article.
I bolded what I consider to be the issue: is it intended to be able to kill players while they are facing a loading screen?In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
Yes, Cyrodiil is intended to be a PVP zone. PVP zone is a place where you can fight against other players. To my understanding, you cannot fight or react/defend when you're stuck in a loading screen, so it's debatable if you truly are fighting against someone or not. As others have stated in this thread: in a similar situation (resource tower doors) designers went and changed the doors so it couldn't happen there, it makes me believe this situation isn't intended either.
Now, if it is not intended to be able to kill players who are not able to control their character, it is an exploit and thus town building farmers are exploiters.
And of course, we can try to propose some changes to prevent further exploiting: because the problem is inability to control your character while being killed, I propose adding an immunity to players in a loading screen. This way the developers can reuse old functions to add the fix: the immunity is already in game on the safe zones.
you can also deny them their pvp by not going into the door. Are you then also engaging in exploiting them by making them not PVP through the act of not pressing "E"?
Its a bad gameplay design nothing more lol.
No, if no one goes trough the door, no one ends up in a state where they can be killed without having a control over their character and thus there is no exploiting happening.You all need to slot some impen and stop heading into strange buildings where weirdos lay an wait lol.
Inside the building is where the objective ends. This is why they took doors off of towers and give invulnerability after loading screen in Imperial City. Did you read any of the thread?
Id argue the main objective in PVP is to kill your targets, then PVE quest.
If you can't kill because of a door mechanic, stop walking through doors. Wait them out on the other side or find another location lol.
Cyro is your oyster.
Actually, I would like to argue that the main objective or focus is not PVP in Cyrodiil. It is an objective and a focus, but not the main. We get hints about these by the reward structure: if you do something right, you get rewarded.
We have 2 leaderboards in a campaign: one based on an individual performance and the other based on alliance's performance. Your end of campaign rewards gets higher the higher your alliance scored. Being a lone huge reward, it puts a major significance on it.
Now, you are rewarded in a minor way by doing quests and killing players. These objectives only affect your individual scoring, they do not count for the alliance scoring. To me, it seems they are on an equal level of significance. You are also rewarded in a minor way when you capture objectives like resources, keeps and scrolls. These tough also affects your alliance scoring and individual scoring, so I think they are more significant than questing or killing players.
The end of campaign rewards suck though... The gold jewelry awarded based on individual scoring can be good depending on your RNG. However, if you really want to get paid you’ll farm AP from killing players. Not only will likely score high, but you can then turn around and launder that AP into gold by selling the gold jewelry from the golden vendor every week - assuming there is something PvE peeps want said week. I made 1.2 mil last week selling Spinners rings, which was a surprise to me considering how many time they’ve been there before, but I’ll take it.
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, the issue here is that the other side is very unorganized and gogogo.
If its an group inside that gear you are solo don't matter much, tank builds works well but don't have serious burst damage.IzzyStardust wrote: »
I did. Stop going into buildings and instead wait for them to go outside. Then fight+kill them.
They are only there because they know PVE players are going in with divines/infused gear lol.
Yes sending in the tank first then rest of group should probably work, however some of this setups sounds way overkill for killing questers more something like the scroll trap.
Yes they know they run into PvP groups sooner or later but still.
there are ways to bait players out. Impatience is one of the main ones. They do the same tactic with scrolls; 9/10 times the best way is to organize and wait them out.
I 100% will guarantee that they will come out and fight you all if no one comes through those doors to farm.
In real PvP you try to force, if fail you res back inside town, then spam warning in chat.
And yes that would work well, why are we doing this *** rather than standard pvp?
Only people who has problems with PvDoor or have larger problems
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.3 -
aaisoaho✭✭✭✭✭Since we're having a discussion if this is an exploit or not, here's my 2 cents.
So, we need to define what is an exploit:
For my argument, I'll use the previous definition from this thread, which was from Wikipedia article.
I bolded what I consider to be the issue: is it intended to be able to kill players while they are facing a loading screen?In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.
Yes, Cyrodiil is intended to be a PVP zone. PVP zone is a place where you can fight against other players. To my understanding, you cannot fight or react/defend when you're stuck in a loading screen, so it's debatable if you truly are fighting against someone or not. As others have stated in this thread: in a similar situation (resource tower doors) designers went and changed the doors so it couldn't happen there, it makes me believe this situation isn't intended either.
Now, if it is not intended to be able to kill players who are not able to control their character, it is an exploit and thus town building farmers are exploiters.
And of course, we can try to propose some changes to prevent further exploiting: because the problem is inability to control your character while being killed, I propose adding an immunity to players in a loading screen. This way the developers can reuse old functions to add the fix: the immunity is already in game on the safe zones.
you can also deny them their pvp by not going into the door. Are you then also engaging in exploiting them by making them not PVP through the act of not pressing "E"?
Its a bad gameplay design nothing more lol.
No, if no one goes trough the door, no one ends up in a state where they can be killed without having a control over their character and thus there is no exploiting happening.You all need to slot some impen and stop heading into strange buildings where weirdos lay an wait lol.
Inside the building is where the objective ends. This is why they took doors off of towers and give invulnerability after loading screen in Imperial City. Did you read any of the thread?
Id argue the main objective in PVP is to kill your targets, then PVE quest.
If you can't kill because of a door mechanic, stop walking through doors. Wait them out on the other side or find another location lol.
Cyro is your oyster.
Actually, I would like to argue that the main objective or focus is not PVP in Cyrodiil. It is an objective and a focus, but not the main. We get hints about these by the reward structure: if you do something right, you get rewarded.
We have 2 leaderboards in a campaign: one based on an individual performance and the other based on alliance's performance. Your end of campaign rewards gets higher the higher your alliance scored. Being a lone huge reward, it puts a major significance on it.
Now, you are rewarded in a minor way by doing quests and killing players. These objectives only affect your individual scoring, they do not count for the alliance scoring. To me, it seems they are on an equal level of significance. You are also rewarded in a minor way when you capture objectives like resources, keeps and scrolls. These tough also affects your alliance scoring and individual scoring, so I think they are more significant than questing or killing players.
how can the first PVP zone at launch NOT be PVP as the main focused?! It's a 3-faction war for a reason lol. If you don't pvp, then the PVP will come to your front door, its inevitable.
Whoops, what I meant to say was "main objective is not to kill people, killing is a minor objective/focus", but I mixed it up a bit while writing and ended up with what was quoted. And I base the statement on the fact that killing other players gives you less rewards and it has less impact on the scores (and does not affect the alliance score).0 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you think exploitative, grevious, cretinous behavior in PVP is just part of the experience and good for the game, you're delusional. That kind of boorish idiocy just drives people away.6 -
grkkll✭✭✭✭VvardeFellow wrote: »DISCLAIMER: I despise PVP. I despise it because no one, ever, in the history of gaming has ever been able to control "greifers" and bad behavior disguised as "play".
That said, like many, many "tourists" who do not PVP, I went to the holy grail of Cyrodil this week, to get my boxes. First time there. Pretty place. Expected to die every second, but as I was there and stumbled into "dailies", and started doing those, it took awhile for someone, somewhere in the boonies to jump me. Shrug it off, learn the spawn and transit system.
So on day two, in Bruma, in what I think is a quest giver house, upon entering, I am immediately killed by what I later learn from those who know such things, as persistent AOE from a group of opposing faction players, although I hesitate to call them players because why insult the term players?
Anyway. some said it was an exploit, some said it was just your ordinary grief-er , and of course some said "git gud", as if bad spelling was somehow an antidote to anything.
I don't really care about getting grief-ed, after the second time and learning, I stayed away from the house. But, which is it? Exploit or what?
Was it Bruma? I was there last night and there were pact and Dom gankers with a ballista at the top od the stairs. Was funny...... at first but got a bit repetetative after a while0 -
Elong✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, the issue here is that the other side is very unorganized and gogogo.
If its an group inside that gear you are solo don't matter much, tank builds works well but don't have serious burst damage.IzzyStardust wrote: »
I did. Stop going into buildings and instead wait for them to go outside. Then fight+kill them.
They are only there because they know PVE players are going in with divines/infused gear lol.
Yes sending in the tank first then rest of group should probably work, however some of this setups sounds way overkill for killing questers more something like the scroll trap.
Yes they know they run into PvP groups sooner or later but still.
there are ways to bait players out. Impatience is one of the main ones. They do the same tactic with scrolls; 9/10 times the best way is to organize and wait them out.
I 100% will guarantee that they will come out and fight you all if no one comes through those doors to farm.
In real PvP you try to force, if fail you res back inside town, then spam warning in chat.
And yes that would work well, why are we doing this *** rather than standard pvp?
Only people who has problems with PvDoor or have larger problems
Who's fault is it that they're unorganised? Organise yourselves!1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VvardeFellow wrote: »DISCLAIMER: I despise PVP. I despise it because no one, ever, in the history of gaming has ever been able to control "greifers" and bad behavior disguised as "play".
That said, like many, many "tourists" who do not PVP, I went to the holy grail of Cyrodil this week, to get my boxes. First time there. Pretty place. Expected to die every second, but as I was there and stumbled into "dailies", and started doing those, it took awhile for someone, somewhere in the boonies to jump me. Shrug it off, learn the spawn and transit system.
So on day two, in Bruma, in what I think is a quest giver house, upon entering, I am immediately killed by what I later learn from those who know such things, as persistent AOE from a group of opposing faction players, although I hesitate to call them players because why insult the term players?
Anyway. some said it was an exploit, some said it was just your ordinary grief-er , and of course some said "git gud", as if bad spelling was somehow an antidote to anything.
I don't really care about getting grief-ed, after the second time and learning, I stayed away from the house. But, which is it? Exploit or what?
Was it Bruma? I was there last night and there were pact and Dom gankers with a ballista at the top od the stairs. Was funny...... at first but got a bit repetetative after a while
I didn't know you could fit siege in there. Thanks for the tip!!Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lmao. The mental gymnastics some people are going through to legitimize PvLoadscreen. Probably the same ones that use to hole up inside resource towers with 23 guildies farming pugs. I understand the attraction to the challenge it used to be to do this well against hordes of experienced PvPers. I did it a time or two myself. But stacking 5+ inside Bruma Chapel with coldfire and CCs, farming unaware and completely inexperienced players, while bragging about your AP gains... The only word I can find for it is pathetic.4 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VvardeFellow wrote: »DISCLAIMER: I despise PVP. I despise it because no one, ever, in the history of gaming has ever been able to control "greifers" and bad behavior disguised as "play".
That said, like many, many "tourists" who do not PVP, I went to the holy grail of Cyrodil this week, to get my boxes. First time there. Pretty place. Expected to die every second, but as I was there and stumbled into "dailies", and started doing those, it took awhile for someone, somewhere in the boonies to jump me. Shrug it off, learn the spawn and transit system.
So on day two, in Bruma, in what I think is a quest giver house, upon entering, I am immediately killed by what I later learn from those who know such things, as persistent AOE from a group of opposing faction players, although I hesitate to call them players because why insult the term players?
Anyway. some said it was an exploit, some said it was just your ordinary grief-er , and of course some said "git gud", as if bad spelling was somehow an antidote to anything.
I don't really care about getting grief-ed, after the second time and learning, I stayed away from the house. But, which is it? Exploit or what?
Was it Bruma? I was there last night and there were pact and Dom gankers with a ballista at the top od the stairs. Was funny...... at first but got a bit repetetative after a while
I didn't know you could fit siege in there. Thanks for the tip!!
You can fit CATAPULTS in there. Plus ballistae, obviously.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub1 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
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Sure, it may be pathetic, lame, unsportsmanlike, etc, but a door camp is 100% legitimate. It''s not harassment, it's not griefing, it's not exploiting.Lmao. The mental gymnastics some people are going through to legitimize PvLoadscreen. Probably the same ones that use to hole up inside resource towers with 23 guildies farming pugs. I understand the attraction to the challenge it used to be to do this well against hordes of experienced PvPers. I did it a time or two myself. But stacking 5+ inside Bruma Chapel with coldfire and CCs, farming unaware and completely inexperienced players, while bragging about your AP gains... The only word I can find for it is pathetic.
And as much as I hate the concept of pugstomping in AvA, I hate PVE in Cyrodiil more and the notion of players who feel entitled to opt out of PVP in a PVP zone is highly triggering. I'm glad the loot box grinders are having to earn their loot to some degree.
Edited by zyk on April 24, 2019 12:10AM1 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isn't exploiting a weakness in design considered an exploit ?
depends whos doing it, and what they are actually doing.
i do not think its an exploit, and they could allways just patch it like they did with imperial sewers ladders.
so far things like that are at the call of zenimax and sometimes they call it "grey area" other times its BAN HAMMER for a few (only temporary) other times its a warning.
mostly tho its usually just considered "grey area" and i bet in this case its not an exploit mainly because you are entering a pvp area, if killed in that pvp area by other players then i dont see how its an exploit.
but zenimax is the only one can make that call, not us.0 -
Gorrest✭✭✭Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »
@geonsocal, it would be nice to say you can just "get out of red", but what I saw an AD tourist-farm group of 5 use in Cropsford was:- Warden rune at entrance instantly teleports anyone entering the quest-giver building to a different location and do a disorient/stun
- Daedric mines already planted at said location do high damage instantly (18k or so, probably 2 sorcs)
- AOEs from the remaining griefers take off your remaining health
- Chance of survival for anyone entering: zero
-PvP Characters-
AD Mag DK, Mc Flabben
AD Mag Templar, Gorrest
AD Mag Sorc, Edrene Kingsley
AD MagWarden, Mc Woflen
EP Stam Sorc, Elder Procs Online
DC Stam DK, One Shot Online3 -
enzoisadog✭✭✭✭Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »
@geonsocal, it would be nice to say you can just "get out of red", but what I saw an AD tourist-farm group of 5 use in Cropsford was:- Warden rune at entrance instantly teleports anyone entering the quest-giver building to a different location and do a disorient/stun
- Daedric mines already planted at said location do high damage instantly (18k or so, probably 2 sorcs)
- AOEs from the remaining griefers take off your remaining health
- Chance of survival for anyone entering: zero
damn that KDR thoPC-NA1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »
@geonsocal, it would be nice to say you can just "get out of red", but what I saw an AD tourist-farm group of 5 use in Cropsford was:- Warden rune at entrance instantly teleports anyone entering the quest-giver building to a different location and do a disorient/stun
- Daedric mines already planted at said location do high damage instantly (18k or so, probably 2 sorcs)
- AOEs from the remaining griefers take off your remaining health
- Chance of survival for anyone entering: zero
Some names and identifying details have been changed to protect the privacy of individuals. This is Law and Order special victim unit. DUN DUNEdited by Teeba_Shei on April 24, 2019 12:45AM1 -
ShellaSunshine✭✭✭They are farming their 40 enemy player board mission quest and/or AP because they are bored losers.
Steps to overcome such atrocity:
1.) When you die near a quest giver, take note of how many enemy players were there and the location
2.) Alert everyone in zone chat to avoid going there for at least an hour
3.) After that time has passed, they will either log out or move on from boredom
This has been happening since Day 1 of the PvP Event. These are typically players who were unable to complete certain board missions and found an opportunity to do so as they knew there will be tons of players doing the daily quests for the event.
It's important to remember that you are in a PvP zone so do not expect you will not be killed because you are doing the Cyrodiil PvE quests.
Form a group when you first enter Cyrodiil but make sure you let them know that the group is for the daily quests.
For example: type b for bruma quest group
Being in a group will increase your chances of survival.
Also, choosing one of the campaigns created for the event and going there during non-peak times will ensure your safety. I have found that the Boethiah campaign in the early morning EST contain people from all alliances ignoring each other while they are doing their daily quests.
Of course, there will still be a few players trying to take advantage of others doing their daily quests but it doesn't happen as often as it does on Shor or Vivec during peak times (evening EST).Edited by ShellaSunshine on April 24, 2019 1:53AM0 -
Marcus684✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »
@geonsocal, it would be nice to say you can just "get out of red", but what I saw an AD tourist-farm group of 5 use in Cropsford was:- Warden rune at entrance instantly teleports anyone entering the quest-giver building to a different location and do a disorient/stun
- Daedric mines already planted at said location do high damage instantly (18k or so, probably 2 sorcs)
- AOEs from the remaining griefers take off your remaining health
- Chance of survival for anyone entering: zero
Bragging about your ability to club baby seals. Classy.2 -
xan4silkb14_ESO✭✭✭✭It's an exploit pure and simple. Doesn't matter that ZoS refuses to address it and silently endorses it as evidenced by the many times this has been used by scroll baiting groups. I refuse to believe that they designed PvP in such a way that would render an opponent helpless for however long the load screen takes as a valid tactic.
ZoS got rid of resource tower doors to prevent that crap at resource towers. The loading screen advantage is not an intended tactic of PvP. ZoS just doesn't care to use resources to address this issue in towns.2 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lol!!! Griefers? We police our own in PvP. It is a fairly small community. We know most everybody so we all band together and rally against pve during this event.
This is THE dumbest most sociopathic thihg I've ever seen in my entire *** life.
Joke or not you just... Alienate yourself from the rest of the community supporting the game just as much as you do. Then later the likes of you will cry about the state of the game, no doubt.
That's absolutely brilliant!
Someone kill me pls.3 -
msalvia✭✭✭✭I don't know that I'd call it exploit, but it's trash PvP, no doubt about it. But at the same time, it's how some garbage PvPers get AP, not sure there's much to be done about it.
Probably the best bet for you is to go actually do some pvp. The griefers can sit in their houses all day, and only do it because people keep feeding them.
And honestly, after reading all the complaint threads about PvP this week (I do not consider your post among these, it was very reasonable), I'm having a hard time sympathizing with all the rabid anti-PvP crap. I would wager all this hate is only leading to MORE griefing, as trolls get their jollies from irritating people.2
