idk wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The purpose of Negate is to negate all magicka abilities. Not just heals. It essentially silences magicka since it is typically vocally driven though it is not displayed that way in this game. Stamina abilities have never been in that category.

That doesn't really make it any better balance-wise. And judging how stambuild grunt, there is a vocal component to their damage too..

You have not exactly explained an imbalance. All you have really said is it is not fair. You first need to outline an actual imbalance and you have not even begun to notice the difference between the two areas to even make it a consideration.

The imbalance lies in the fact that it affects half the builds and not the other half and that there is no appropriate counterpart. If that is no imbalanced, then obviously DK Standard affecting both mag and stam builds has to be imbalance, b/c it is affecting both types of builds when affecting only one type of build is considered balanced. This applies to all other abilities.

Also, there is no way to completely shut down stamina builds in this game. But there is a way to completely shut down magicka builds. How is that not imbalanced?

And if magicka builds are so much more powerful than stamina builds that such an onesided ability is warranted, then how the hell do stamina builds kill magicka builds when there is no Negate available? The fact that stamina builds constantly kill magicka builds without using Negate shows that no such absurd imbalance in favor of magicka builds exist - and therefore, that the current form of Negate is imbalanced.

Tasear wrote: »

I really want to support you... buff Sorcs I would so be behind you, but at last not in this case. Negate while situational after they "fixed" it seems to have a bit more of style to it. So if you are going to agrue negate needs more of a buff then you have to explain how doesn't work in situations you wish it did.

I honestly think it's fine as it right now.

* A it damage or heals
* It might stun or silence players
* It negates continues magical aoes so damage mirgration though situational

Your last 2 points are actually the issue.
It only "silences" players, which means it only affects magicka builds. It's the only ability in this game that works that way. Why should there be an ultimate that stamina builds can completely ignore, while magicka builds have to run for their lives? Especially if there is no stamina equivalent for such an ability in the game!

And why shouldn't it also remove Stamina ground? It's not like purge only removes effects from certain types of builds either.

Since you apparently like to heal, let me put this into perspective for you:
Ceteri paribus: Imagine you are a healer in a 12man group, but your healing ability can only heal Redguards, Orcs, Dumners, and Argonians. Everybody else in your group will not receive any heals. Also your healing ability is the only healing ability in the game. All other abilities in this game would work on any player irrespective of their race. Would that balanced?

Having negate also disable stamina abilities would in no way affect PvE. So there is no conflict here.
It would also not buff sorcs in any significant way. It would simply bring the ability in line with ALL other abilities and provide a way to also shut down stamina builds and spin-to-win zergballs.

So the only affect a change to negate would have is that Negate would finally also affect stamina builds. I know shocking! An ultimate that affects all targets, not just a select few.

Imagine the *** if, for example, Incap only affected stamina builds ... Funny how NBs never had to justify their ultimate hitting stamina and magicka builds alike, despite them having been the dominant PvP class for years.

Galarthor wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I'll give this a go. Yada yadda, I won't claim to know the original intent of the devs, buuut...

So, Negate - job is in the name. Negate stuff - ground effects and casting. It's done essentially the same thing for quite a long time, and like most skills with that quality, the game has evolved and the skill...hasn't.

'Back in the day', stamina had nowhere near the relatively massive healing ability they have now - stamina wardens, in particular, can function as psuedo-healers.

Previously, you had a lot of magicka based damage, healing, and general mitigation going on - and being able to shut that down was hideously strong.

So, it isn't a BAD thing that negate is no longer the end-all-be-all of sorc it was at one point (for group play), like many skills it hasn't quite kept up with the game's - and the meta's - evolution. It no longer has the impact it once did - and while that's not a bad thing, it has lost a not-insignificant amount of strength. Stamina is almost - but not quite - just green magicka. Time for a bit of updating, imo.

Now, I don't think it should work on stam. Counters are and should be a thing, but I'd be overjoyed to see the skill receive a combination of radius increase, damage bump, or some sort of lingering effect - maybe have it increase the stamina costs of stuff by x% while inside it so that one dodge roll to get out is a bit more punishing.

I like what you are trying to do, however, increasing the cost of that dodge roll will only hurt magicka builds more than stamina builds, which means the imbalance in the effect this ability has on stamina and magicka builds will only increase. Also, having a % based cost increase doesn't have quite the same impact as completely shutting down a build. And given how many zergballs employ spin-to-win and Sub Assault (both AoEs) it is about high time we also get a way to shut these types of zergballs down.

I'd also be fine if 1 negate morph would affect stamina, while the other affects magicka. Or if some other class would get a stamina "silence". It wouldn't make Negate any more balanced or interesting, BUT it would improve the overall balance across all classes a bit and provide a way to put pressure / to counter stamina-based zergs. It's not my preferred solution, since it doesn't really solve the imbalance issue of Negate, but it would definitely be an improvement to the status quo.

That's the point - I don't think it should be anything but maybe a minor inconvenience to stamina. However, magicka builds also have more access to stamina resources than before - CC break + dodge roll, especially in CP, is no longer such a hefty strain on resources it used to be.

I'm all for a works-on-stam-only morph too though.

As much I like the idea of an AoE disarm skill:

Negate is one of 4 Ultis that are actually used in every PvP group larger 8 I know.

Before you change it, you have to rework the 16+ other, more useless Ultis. Particularly the healing one is in a good state when you know what you do. The only rework it needs is a clear color indicator so you can see better which side`s Negate it is.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Negate is crazy powerful, but situational. I think it's kinda cool, and one of the best pieces of design in this game (in terms of giving a class a completely unique, flavorful ability.

That being said...

Put stamina silence on standard of might!
Dooooo it ZOS. Do it. Make it happen.

I would second this. StamDKs and StamBlades don´t have useful group utility Ultis im PvP. So either Standard of Might or Veil of Blades (That being said, some groups use standard of might already).

Dojohoda wrote: »

Maybe make a negate morph that will shut down aoe abilities, both stam and mag, including monster set aoe, while not affecting any single target abilities.

It would definitely be better balanced than the current form of Negate. However, as was pointed out, the negate is kinda unique and I would try to keep this feature if possible.

But a Negate that suppresses all AoE and can be replaced like the Standard sure would go a long way in shutting down these zergballs. I'd even be willing to sacrifice unqiueness for that. It should retain it's CC on NPCs though, else PvE'ers will be upset.

Fix the interaction with the blood magic passive so it procs with each tick, that's all I ask.