PvP Crying Sorcs = another Mag DK Nerf, Wings... Really?

StormeReigns · April 2019

Gilvoth wrote: »

this forum is hugely biased and lean only to sorcs as the main population.
so all the views and comments we see here, are Largely based on, and written by sorcerers.
and when you see their loose to a battle of words on the forum that goes against what they want, then they allways proclaim

we need a more balanced forum, that includes ALL of the @accountnames and accounts in eso on here to join in on the conversation and not be so one sided with all sorcerers point of view.

Creditable Citation and Factual Evidence is Needed and Required

KhajiitFelix · April 2019

Give cloak a 1 second of cast time.

Jeremy · April 2019

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

What happened? Did a DK reflect a light attack and not die to the cookie cutter Sorc combo that 80% of the players in Cyrodil run when they aren't stacking sheilds and kiting away?

Probably.

Anything that prevents them from bursting you down in seconds is considered "OP" and needs to be nerfed immediately. I'm sick of it too.

Att1Tude · April 2019

Why is no1 crying about Wardens being op

Gilvoth · April 2019

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Give cloak a 1 second of cast time.

we stood up and not only helped you guys as a comminity but also insisted that the devs NOT do the 1 second sorc nerf to give shields a one second cast time delay.
we won, you guys won, we helped you guys, the nerf never happened and Immediately after you guys won and no nerf happened, you attack us again as if we had never tried to help you.
and right here we see proof that you guys simply refuse to do anything else but ask for nerfs to US all the time.
its not fair.

Anyron · April 2019

Katahdin wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

It's actually magblades and Stamblade snipers crying.

I main stamblade and never once complained about DK wings. I just don't attack the DK with range when he/she advertises it with those huge flapping wings. That's a L2P issue. The few times I had a shot reflected back, with all the impen gear, it doesn't do any significant damage anyway.

On the other hand I've had a glass cannon NB kill himself shooting at my DK, which is hilarious.

Dont know if they are in fact nerfing wings to balance the snipe nerf. Til i get a chance to see it, its too early to say how that's gona work.

And then try it with sorcs/mblade. As you can go melee, sorc has only daedric curse And mages fury as non-reflectable non-projectile skill. Everything else Is reflectable
Same for magblade. Concealed w isnt reflectable, everything else Is

Gilvoth · April 2019

i main an archer, when i see dragonights wings flap, i back off.
i know i will die if hes flapping wings.
i do not agree with this nerf that they claim is incoming.

btw is atm only a "rumor"

Gilvoth · April 2019

the reason sorcerers dont like the wings?
is easy answer, becasue sorerers damage is Way Strong and within a few 2 or 3 hits those long rannge damages from a sorc will KILL anything. so when those wings flap on a sorc? BAM you got a dead sorc, and they dont like that.
Snipe does not do that!

Donny_Vito · April 2019

Lol DKs finally get a potential nerf and they lose their <explicit word>

When sorcs were getting nerfed to the ground a few months ago I saw all these DKs laughing and jesting about it. Karma. It's real.

Anyron · April 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Comparing apples to oranges again, cloak can break, detect pots exist (even though the duration is way too short imo), breaks if you use an offensive ability, not defending cloak its strong af (and needs some cost increase like streak when casted consecutively within a period of time), but if you go against a (not braindead) magdk as a magblade all you can do is cloak and run off because the chance of killing a sub-par magdk who can maintain wings with a magblade is close to zero, no matter how good you are.
Literally everything except Soul Harvest / Incap gets reflected from a magblade.
How are you supposed to fight a decent magdk as a pure ranged spec?
Poke him 3 times with your resto and hope he doesnt recast wings?
Wait for wings to run out, fear and try to burst their 30k hp pool in heavy armor with 1 combo?
Inb4 just slot force pulse LOOOOOOL, yeah im gonna change my abilties in open world for every opponent seperately so I wont have a instalose matchup, especially with the lovely in combat "feature" zos has given us.
I wouldnt mind 90% chance to lose matchups, but magblade / clench sorc (nonpet) against magdk is just straight up 100% lose if both players play on the same skill-level with appropriate gear.

I feel like alot of you dont realize how broken reflect mechanics are, especially if you can keep close to a 100% uptime on it if you really want to.

First of all I agree with what you say About magblade being seriously disadvantaged to the Point I dont try either if I am in a 1v1 with a decentish magdk. I also realize that against a magblade the reflect is way too hard of a counter.

Obviously cloak and wings are not the same the Question which one is more useful in defending against Incoming Damage is one that is Always situational, thus I dont want to go into that Right now, if you so wish we can discuss that, but as the Topic of this thread is dk wings I would rather leave it at that.

That being said let me ask you some qestions I have asked in a lot of other threads where magblades say the same as you do:

What do you think is the issue for magblade in These Kind of fights? Wings existing? Or magblade being designed in a way that completely relies on reflectable and absorbable projectiles even if you build for concealed since concealed and Harvest will not kill any ranged counter, same for force pulse and Harvest and no other Damage, and with no way around this? Could it be that if wings are changed that you will struggle against shimmering in nearly the same way? Could it also be that spell wall will do the same? Could new wings still cut all your Damage by 50% depending on what will be considered a ranged attack for them?

Now that you are thinking About These Questions take a good Long look at magsorcs. They too are basically ranged abilities only. Now what you might realize if you think About this and compare potential Setups for both classes is that magsorcs have builds that can and do function Pretty well against wings, afterall "only" frags get reflected and slotting reach is a choice Nothing more, you are not required to Slot it to get a working ranged cc with which you can enable your sorc burst combo.

All that in mind please answer me honestly: Is wings really the only big offender? The only big Problem? The reason magblades are weak? Is the only Course of Action to Change wings? What About shimmer, how will you get around this? Wouldnt it be better if magblade would stop being so heavily countered by anything that denies ranged Damage? To get Options? To be able to make choices just like sorc can?

Curiously enough I rarely received an answer.

Difference between shimmering shield and Wings Is obvious. With shimmering your projectiles are absorbed (0damage). With Wings your projectiles are absorbed (0damage ) AND reflected

So as ranged build you can afford to focus warden with shimmering shield. But 1v1 Is impossible to focus DK while (even only) half of your skills Is reflected while you must deal with dks own damage

Remove reflect part and that skill is fine

Anyron · April 2019

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Okay we don't even know if this change will even hit PTS. The information given to us was by people who tested a long time ago, ZOS could have changed their mind or received feedback that made them adjust.

IF wings gets changed to not reflect, and that's IF then I am unsure about it. Do players almost refuse to use counters to wings? (IE: Lotus fan, concealed weapon, aoes, daedric mines, pets etc.) Yes. Is it annoying to have a bar on my Swaps for just DKs? Yes. I am not saying wings does not need a change but also it seems that in PvE if you have a boss that has a reflection mechanic then most players will change up their bars to put non-reflected abilities, even if they might not like using the ability... got to get around the mechanic. But in PvP it's so different. You don't see many players having different bars for different situations like: running from keep to keep, off-tank, off-heal, DK, anti-gank, 1vX etc.

I'll wait to see what hits PTS and test out the changes, like I said it's also been a while since these people tested the changes so ZOS could have changed some things... who knows.

If you allow me to swap skills in middle of combat, its solved

Sanguinor2 · April 2019

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Lol DKs finally get a potential nerf and they lose their <explicit word>

When sorcs were getting nerfed to the ground a few months ago I saw all these DKs laughing and jesting about it. Karma. It's real.

dks finally get a nerf lol, you should look at what dks once were, they have been nerfed permanently since About 1.5! with few exceptions.

Also in the last Patches sorc wasnt nerfed, it was buffed instead if you know how to build one.

Steelshiv · April 2019

@Crom_CCCXVI

PvP Magsorc here. Just responding to the title; very short attention span. I find wing spam mildly annoying and not worth my precious SALT.

Magsorc had their shields changed completely awhile back. Lots of people cried "nerf" and spilled their salt when it actually made shields stronger with different gear.

TL;DR: This Magsorc dgaf about fighting wing using DK. DK Adapt to changes. Nerf might not be Nerf in the end.

JumpmanLane · April 2019

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

What happened? Did a DK reflect a light attack and not die to the cookie cutter Sorc combo that 80% of the players in Cyrodil run when they aren't stacking sheilds and kiting away?

It seems every other change to the PvP community has something to do with ZOS pampering to these "elite sorcerers" who seem to have an issue anytime they lose a fight,, and I guess they should have an issue since they have almost every advantage in the game already

Sorcs get Curse and Mages Wrath for their damage stack, after Ruin Cage of course... and will be behind 2 sheilds (maybe you can nerf shield breaker again!) probably, hiding behind pets which always seem to be in the way even when your target locked on the Sorc himself,: but who cares because with their massive Magicka pool, unlimited regen they will likely just streak all the way across the Cyrodil the first time they are hit.
or course healing with every attack..

Hey but we can still make a lame ass tank with our Mag DK's since that seems to be the only thing we are supposed to make right? No Execute, the biggest attack is Flame Lash which was essentially ruined when you changed off balance immunity and made the skill utterly unreliable not to mention it's absurdly slow to begin with.

As someone who has mained a Mag DK since day 1, and remembers when there was only like 2 in all of Cyrodil (and still stuck with it)
this is disgusting
So many I can'r remember them all!!
1) Off Balance Immunity killed Flame Lash for the few light armor high DPS Mag DK's out there
2) Standard of Might caps defile at a weak 30%, easily overcome by the massive healing everyone has
3) Heavy Attack Damage nerfed, Molten Armaments
4) Igneous Sheild made worthless
5) Dark Elves lose Flame Damage buff (this was for Mag Dk's.... not Fire Sorcs, lol)
6) Dragon Leap is terrible to target and half the time "misses" even though you land on them... absurd
7) Magma Armor is essentially worthless in PvP, can't remember the last time I saw anyone use it.
----that's enough I am sure there is more....

Spot on. I agree with it all except for one TINY thing: you should be animation canceling those whips. But spot on. Wish I could agree AND awesome it!

Commancho · April 2019

Am I the only one here who is playing all classes?

Donny_Vito · April 2019

Commancho wrote: »

Am I the only one here who is playing all classes?

Actively playing? Potentially. Most people probably have most classes on different toons, but with a career and real-life obligations it's hard to actively play all my characters. Must focus on one of them in "spurts."

JumpmanLane · April 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

oMrRust wrote: »

sorcs aren't op. Sorcs are easily countered nowadays..

Only thing about sorc possibly considered OP is when they use a full pet build, which becomes ridiculously annoying in pvp. nothing else comes close.

agreed...seen the video of 4 petsrocs with Maw of the infernal on top in BGs...disgusting af to play against..

pets are way to hard to kill, especially if the get shields form the sorc, or healed.
furthermore the game does not support a hardtarget...which makes it impossible to focus the dmg on the sorc, since youll land skill son the pets or ppl standing inbetween...but the hardtarget problem is a whole other problem, which also is need of improvement in PVE, since hitboxes from bosses can collide / move into each other, making taunting a 50/50 sometimes, which is unnessecary.

Other day ran into a ball Zerg NOTHING but pet sorcs. I was like where did all these NPcs come from. It was a bunch of pets.

Had to kite around all these pets to kill anyone. Funny thing was these sorcs didn’t run after taking a little damage (like they normally would). They stuck around and died.

I guess they were just dorking around. It only seemed viable when pugs joined them.

TheValar85 · April 2019

Why do you guys want to completly destory again the sorceres? is that so fing hard to adapt? what elese do you want to take away from them? everything? well F that. Nightblades are so OP as hell, their poisoning shoots are penetrating basicly so over poweredly thats just disgusting. So No leav the DK and sorcerers alone ffs.

TheValar85 · April 2019

i am so sick of this Nb's plebs QQ about sorcerers and Dk's. If you gyus want to play in god mode one hit killign everything Play with skyrim, oh BTW soon a skyrim onlien mod will come out so you can enjoy your fun in there. This game is not just about the god damn nightblades. Understand that finaly. Or quit playing the game.

Jeremy · April 2019

TheValar85 wrote: »

Why do you guys want to completly destory again the sorceres? is that so fing hard to adapt? what elese do you want to take away from them? everything? well F that. Nightblades are so OP as hell, their poisoning shoots are penetrating basicly so over poweredly thats just disgusting. So No leav the DK and sorcerers alone ffs.

That poison crap is pretty brutal.

TheValar85 · April 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

TheValar85 wrote: »

Why do you guys want to completly destory again the sorceres? is that so fing hard to adapt? what elese do you want to take away from them? everything? well F that. Nightblades are so OP as hell, their poisoning shoots are penetrating basicly so over poweredly thats just disgusting. So No leav the DK and sorcerers alone ffs.

That poison crap is pretty brutal.

It is disustingly Over powered. even a damn full heavy mele player strugle against that crap.

Kova · April 2019

People still play PVP competitively...? World is full of wonders, I tell you.

Draxys · April 2019

This change could negatively impact pve more than it positively impacts pvp, like usual. I can think of a couple fights where wings are crucial for achievement runs- fang lair hard mode comes to mind first... I think the best solution is to keep the wings functionality like it is currently and change a couple things:

-Severely decrease the damage that gets reflected- this will at least stop the [edit] snipers from killing themselves with their own damage.
-give ranged NB another way to circumvent wings. And impale/morph really shouldn’t be reflectable, that’s a little ridiculous.

[edited for non-constructive comment]

Donny_Vito · April 2019

-give ranged NB another way to circumvent wings. And impale/morph really shouldn’t be reflectable, that’s a little ridiculous

Lol! Just give NB another buff huh? Of course.

RogueShark · April 2019

Sorcs get Curse and Mages Wrath for their damage stack, after Ruin Cage of course... and will be behind 2 sheilds (maybe you can nerf shield breaker again!) probably, hiding behind pets which always seem to be in the way even when your target locked on the Sorc himself,: but who cares because with their massive Magicka pool, unlimited regen they will likely just streak all the way across the Cyrodil the first time they are hit.
or course healing with every attack..

I'm not gonna lie, that makes sorc incredibly OP, you're right.
I mean... two pets, rune cage, curse, mage's wrath and two shields and streak. That's 10/10 slots. I want to know how they also have crit surge on there for 'healing every tick'. No frags, crushing shock or boundless.
I can see why you're frustrated, I wouldn't want to run into someone running 12+ abilities at once either. Yikes.

thankyourat · April 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Magblade being countered by shimmering is somewhat of a myth. You have enough damage as a magblade to break through shimmering. You can't break through wings without killing yourself. The sword and board reflect is only one projectile so it's not really much of a problem.

You do? Share build pls for your 35k Damage no cp Tooltips. Shimmer cap is 1.5x your Health.

I just use armor master/spinner/willpower/ skoria. For BGs I switch out armor master for BTB. I actually use skoria because it can't be reflected. you would have to completely redesign magblade as a class to give them a fighting chance against wings. It would need a few hard hitting abilities like curse that goes past reflect to actually be competitive against a mag DK but if cripple and strife was not reflectable it might be able to manage. at this point though wings would only reflect clench, snipe, frags, and spectral bow making it an almost useles ability besides the snare removal. The 50% reduction change allows it to still be really strong against range builds but it also gives range builds the opportunity to try to actually push through wings. It seems like a very balanced change. It reminds me of the major evasion change. The buff is not as strong as it use to be but it's still a very strong buff against aoe builds.

TheValar85 · April 2019

Draxys wrote: »

This change could negatively impact pve more than it positively impacts pvp, like usual. I can think of a couple fights where wings are crucial for achievement runs- fang lair hard mode comes to mind first... I think the best solution is to keep the wings functionality like it is currently and change a couple things:

-Severely decrease the damage that gets reflected- this will at least stop the braindead snipers from killing themselves with their own damage.
-give ranged NB another way to circumvent wings. And impale/morph really shouldn’t be reflectable, that’s a little ridiculous.

No, Nb's should fall, as sorceres does and templars and the list goes on why? Cos the NB players cant adapt and they cry for more other class nerfs, This sheet fest must stops now. They keep ruining certain aspects of the game, just becasue they are lacking the ability to adapt? Oh no Sir

Katahdin · April 2019

Anyron wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

It's actually magblades and Stamblade snipers crying.

I main stamblade and never once complained about DK wings. I just don't attack the DK with range when he/she advertises it with those huge flapping wings. That's a L2P issue. The few times I had a shot reflected back, with all the impen gear, it doesn't do any significant damage anyway.

On the other hand I've had a glass cannon NB kill himself shooting at my DK, which is hilarious.

Dont know if they are in fact nerfing wings to balance the snipe nerf. Til i get a chance to see it, its too early to say how that's gona work.

And then try it with sorcs/mblade. As you can go melee, sorc has only daedric curse And mages fury as non-reflectable non-projectile skill. Everything else Is reflectable
Same for magblade. Concealed w isnt reflectable, everything else Is

I've played every class combo in Cyrodil besides mag DK and magden

The same applies
Dont attack the DK with a reflectable skill when wings are up.

Maybe it's how I play it, but my mag sorc has less issues with DK wings than my stamblade because of my bow skills on the backbar.

I don't play my magnb (group build not bomb build) much in PVP anymore because I find them frustrating to play out there for reasons that have nothing to do with DK wings.

OtarTheMad · April 2019

Anyron wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Okay we don't even know if this change will even hit PTS. The information given to us was by people who tested a long time ago, ZOS could have changed their mind or received feedback that made them adjust.

IF wings gets changed to not reflect, and that's IF then I am unsure about it. Do players almost refuse to use counters to wings? (IE: Lotus fan, concealed weapon, aoes, daedric mines, pets etc.) Yes. Is it annoying to have a bar on my Swaps for just DKs? Yes. I am not saying wings does not need a change but also it seems that in PvE if you have a boss that has a reflection mechanic then most players will change up their bars to put non-reflected abilities, even if they might not like using the ability... got to get around the mechanic. But in PvP it's so different. You don't see many players having different bars for different situations like: running from keep to keep, off-tank, off-heal, DK, anti-gank, 1vX etc.

I'll wait to see what hits PTS and test out the changes, like I said it's also been a while since these people tested the changes so ZOS could have changed some things... who knows.

If you allow me to swap skills in middle of combat, its solved

Very true, the combat bug does have an impact on the ability to use Swaps and switch bars. However even before that it seemed players seemed unwilling to change out bars. Well we will see soon enough what the changes are and how they will impact DK play.

TequilaFire · April 2019

The nerf wars between the classes should stop as it is biting everyone in the arse!