OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

I don't see why Sorcs would cry when Magblades are the only class that's completely disabled by wings- but they have stealth and teleport, so they're in no place to complain.
The only thing Sorcs can't do against wings is pop Crystal Fragments, everything else is fine.

I even don't bother with sorcs in cyrodiil, because I know they'll just ward- streak- streak- ward- heal- heal. or spam dark deal, streak to regen, then repeat. -and the ones that don't are usually running 3 proc sets + bleeds.

There is no body completely disabled. You can use some thing other then projectiles. Or use crushing shock to brake through. But you do not. So you can but just not do.

It is your fault not DK's

Lol. Ok, yeah. Let me pause the fight so that I can switch my spammable to crushing shock every time I face a DK. Good one.

Why do you cry? If you want dk even do not see you. To overpovered skills on nb, even do not use it. But all range we have is this. Balanced?

What??

Look, I was only pointing out your absurd notion that players can magically switch skills around on the fly to face different opponents. Outside of duels, this is literally impossible in a fight. Builds are usually static and no-one is running multiple spammables because no-one has the bar space to do so. To suggest that players just switch their skills around when they come across a DK is absurd.

Also, it is one thing to provide counters to classes and skills, it is an entirely different thing to shut down every single attack from a class. Slotting a weapon skill is not a viable solution. Classes should be balanced around classes, not balanced around weapon skill lines. Period.

And let's get real here. This wings change (a change we haven't really even seen yet, nor have we seen the countless other balance adjustments that are coming along with it) would actually be a buff to DKs in 1vX situations. The magicka cost of keeping up wings in a situation where you are being overwhelmed by projectiles is unsustainable. A 50% reduction in the power of these is huge from multiple opponents and is only going to make DKs even more tanky.

ATomiX96 wrote: »

GIVE ME MY ROCK PAPER SCISSORS SYSTEM BACK, 50% DAMAGE MITIGATION FROM ALL RANGED DAMAGE SOURCES (including force pulse as well which previously went through wings btw.) DOESNT CUT IT.
1 BUTTON INVULNERABILITY IS FAIR

*laughs in cloak*

I'm going to just wait to see what happens all around before I worry about it myself. I've got both a mag and a stam dk and rely on wings for both. I think this change, along with changes to snipe that are rumored, will probably help stam quite a lot because I (hopefully) won't have to worry as much about mag recovery on a stam toon. I suspect it will slow my vMA runs though (looking at you, stages 5 and 7). But overall, not too worried about it because it will still be easier to sustain.

It's a different story for mag, because there are no major sustain issues, usually. So it could be a legit nerf - hard to say at the moment.

On the other hand, I also play magden in pvp and do just fine against dks. I may be the only mag on the planet who actually slots crushing shock as my spammable though. But it totally works - when my light attacks start coming back at me I continue to weave, but less frequently. That forces the dk to keep wings up without hurting me too bad and I can almost always keep my resources full longer than they can spamming wings, while my main cheap damage skill ticks away at their other resources.

It's a game of attrition at that point - sooner or later the only one who can block and attack is me. Unless they're just better than I am, which occurs with depressing frequency - but my strategy for them works about as well as my strategy for other classes and on average I win/lose against them at more or less the same rate as I do against anyone.

Point being, I don't really understand the cries for wings needing a nerf, but I'm also not sold that this won't be a change I can work around just fine. I think there is good chance it will be a small nerf for magDK and a small buff for stamDK. But of course, that's only in relation to engagements against specific other classes - my strategy while playing magden, for example, is likely no longer going to be effective because I won't be able to wear them down by forcing them to use an expensive skill every couple of seconds. I might have to (or be able to, depending on your point of view) change spammables and come up with a new strategy. Time will tell...

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Comparing apples to oranges again, cloak can break, detect pots exist (even though the duration is way too short imo), breaks if you use an offensive ability, not defending cloak its strong af (and needs some cost increase like streak when casted consecutively within a period of time), but if you go against a (not braindead) magdk as a magblade all you can do is cloak and run off because the chance of killing a sub-par magdk who can maintain wings with a magblade is close to zero, no matter how good you are.
Literally everything except Soul Harvest / Incap gets reflected from a magblade.
How are you supposed to fight a decent magdk as a pure ranged spec?
Poke him 3 times with your resto and hope he doesnt recast wings?
Wait for wings to run out, fear and try to burst their 30k hp pool in heavy armor with 1 combo?
Inb4 just slot force pulse LOOOOOOL, yeah im gonna change my abilties in open world for every opponent seperately so I wont have a instalose matchup, especially with the lovely in combat "feature" zos has given us.
I wouldnt mind 90% chance to lose matchups, but magblade / clench sorc (nonpet) against magdk is just straight up 100% lose if both players play on the same skill-level with appropriate gear.

I feel like alot of you dont realize how broken reflect mechanics are, especially if you can keep close to a 100% uptime on it if you really want to.

First of all I agree with what you say About magblade being seriously disadvantaged to the Point I dont try either if I am in a 1v1 with a decentish magdk. I also realize that against a magblade the reflect is way too hard of a counter.

Obviously cloak and wings are not the same the Question which one is more useful in defending against Incoming Damage is one that is Always situational, thus I dont want to go into that Right now, if you so wish we can discuss that, but as the Topic of this thread is dk wings I would rather leave it at that.

That being said let me ask you some qestions I have asked in a lot of other threads where magblades say the same as you do:

What do you think is the issue for magblade in These Kind of fights? Wings existing? Or magblade being designed in a way that completely relies on reflectable and absorbable projectiles even if you build for concealed since concealed and Harvest will not kill any ranged counter, same for force pulse and Harvest and no other Damage, and with no way around this? Could it be that if wings are changed that you will struggle against shimmering in nearly the same way? Could it also be that spell wall will do the same? Could new wings still cut all your Damage by 50% depending on what will be considered a ranged attack for them?

Now that you are thinking About These Questions take a good Long look at magsorcs. They too are basically ranged abilities only. Now what you might realize if you think About this and compare potential Setups for both classes is that magsorcs have builds that can and do function Pretty well against wings, afterall "only" frags get reflected and slotting reach is a choice Nothing more, you are not required to Slot it to get a working ranged cc with which you can enable your sorc burst combo.

All that in mind please answer me honestly: Is wings really the only big offender? The only big Problem? The reason magblades are weak? Is the only Course of Action to Change wings? What About shimmer, how will you get around this? Wouldnt it be better if magblade would stop being so heavily countered by anything that denies ranged Damage? To get Options? To be able to make choices just like sorc can?

Curiously enough I rarely received an answer.

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

What happened? Did a DK reflect a light attack and not die to the cookie cutter Sorc combo that 80% of the players in Cyrodil run when they aren't stacking sheilds and kiting away?


It seems every other change to the PvP community has something to do with ZOS pampering to these "elite sorcerers" who seem to have an issue anytime they lose a fight,, and I guess they should have an issue since they have almost every advantage in the game already

Sorcs get Curse and Mages Wrath for their damage stack, after Ruin Cage of course... and will be behind 2 sheilds (maybe you can nerf shield breaker again!) probably, hiding behind pets which always seem to be in the way even when your target locked on the Sorc himself,: but who cares because with their massive Magicka pool, unlimited regen they will likely just streak all the way across the Cyrodil the first time they are hit.
or course healing with every attack..

Hey but we can still make a lame ass tank with our Mag DK's since that seems to be the only thing we are supposed to make right? No Execute, the biggest attack is Flame Lash which was essentially ruined when you changed off balance immunity and made the skill utterly unreliable not to mention it's absurdly slow to begin with.


As someone who has mained a Mag DK since day 1, and remembers when there was only like 2 in all of Cyrodil (and still stuck with it)

---

this is disgusting
So many I can'r remember them all!!
1) Off Balance Immunity killed Flame Lash for the few light armor high DPS Mag DK's out there
2) Standard of Might caps defile at a weak 30%, easily overcome by the massive healing everyone has
3) Heavy Attack Damage nerfed, Molten Armaments
4) Igneous Sheild made worthless
5) Dark Elves lose Flame Damage buff (this was for Mag Dk's.... not Fire Sorcs, lol)
6) Dragon Leap is terrible to target and half the time "misses" even though you land on them... absurd
7) Magma Armor is essentially worthless in PvP, can't remember the last time I saw anyone use it.
----that's enough I am sure there is more....

Looks like a Thread Necro from the anti sorc bias, old thread.

I read the first page, skipped the second because I feel like I do have a bit of advice.

As far as targets and pets etc.

Use chains/leash to remove the sorc from their position, or move the pets.

Remember pets cannot CC break so abilities with roots will last their full duration unless you recast.

If in a team environment you can take a few secs to move and root enemy pets to allow the team to force sorcerers out of position.

This of course is not a cure all and the enemy sorc is not going to let you do this easily, but it can be effective.

A healthsorc, not a mag sorc, (and really all health builds) are OP atm. I'm waiting to see the next update

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Comparing apples to oranges again, cloak can break, detect pots exist (even though the duration is way too short imo), breaks if you use an offensive ability, not defending cloak its strong af (and needs some cost increase like streak when casted consecutively within a period of time), but if you go against a (not braindead) magdk as a magblade all you can do is cloak and run off because the chance of killing a sub-par magdk who can maintain wings with a magblade is close to zero, no matter how good you are.
Literally everything except Soul Harvest / Incap gets reflected from a magblade.
How are you supposed to fight a decent magdk as a pure ranged spec?
Poke him 3 times with your resto and hope he doesnt recast wings?
Wait for wings to run out, fear and try to burst their 30k hp pool in heavy armor with 1 combo?
Inb4 just slot force pulse LOOOOOOL, yeah im gonna change my abilties in open world for every opponent seperately so I wont have a instalose matchup, especially with the lovely in combat "feature" zos has given us.
I wouldnt mind 90% chance to lose matchups, but magblade / clench sorc (nonpet) against magdk is just straight up 100% lose if both players play on the same skill-level with appropriate gear.

I feel like alot of you dont realize how broken reflect mechanics are, especially if you can keep close to a 100% uptime on it if you really want to.

First of all I agree with what you say About magblade being seriously disadvantaged to the Point I dont try either if I am in a 1v1 with a decentish magdk. I also realize that against a magblade the reflect is way too hard of a counter.

Obviously cloak and wings are not the same the Question which one is more useful in defending against Incoming Damage is one that is Always situational, thus I dont want to go into that Right now, if you so wish we can discuss that, but as the Topic of this thread is dk wings I would rather leave it at that.

That being said let me ask you some qestions I have asked in a lot of other threads where magblades say the same as you do:

What do you think is the issue for magblade in These Kind of fights? Wings existing? Or magblade being designed in a way that completely relies on reflectable and absorbable projectiles even if you build for concealed since concealed and Harvest will not kill any ranged counter, same for force pulse and Harvest and no other Damage, and with no way around this? Could it be that if wings are changed that you will struggle against shimmering in nearly the same way? Could it also be that spell wall will do the same? Could new wings still cut all your Damage by 50% depending on what will be considered a ranged attack for them?

Now that you are thinking About These Questions take a good Long look at magsorcs. They too are basically ranged abilities only. Now what you might realize if you think About this and compare potential Setups for both classes is that magsorcs have builds that can and do function Pretty well against wings, afterall "only" frags get reflected and slotting reach is a choice Nothing more, you are not required to Slot it to get a working ranged cc with which you can enable your sorc burst combo.

All that in mind please answer me honestly: Is wings really the only big offender? The only big Problem? The reason magblades are weak? Is the only Course of Action to Change wings? What About shimmer, how will you get around this? Wouldnt it be better if magblade would stop being so heavily countered by anything that denies ranged Damage? To get Options? To be able to make choices just like sorc can?

Curiously enough I rarely received an answer.

Magblade being countered by shimmering is somewhat of a myth. You have enough damage as a magblade to break through shimmering. You can't break through wings without killing yourself. The sword and board reflect is only one projectile so it's not really much of a problem.

Wings isn't the reason magblade is weak magblades dependency on range projectiles isn't the reason magblade is weak either. Magblade is weak because it's a class based on mobility but don't have access to snare and root immunity, and magblades doesn't have any burst heal or any source of good healing.

In my opinion the wings change is overdue since the DK class received buffs to sustain and healing. In the past a fight between a DK and magblade use to be very balanced despite dks ability to cast wings because magblades had the advantage in sustain because strife was so cheap. So you could play against mag dks as a magblade and you knew eventually wings would drop and you would have your chance to burst. That's no longer the case and mag dks can keep wings up indefinitely. Even some Stam dk builds has a very high up time on wings because they don't need to cast any other abilities from there magicka pool when fighting a magblade because wings covers all their defensive needs.

It wouldn't be bad if magblades had options to bypass wings. They actually have viable melee damage options that can bypass wings the only problem with them is magblades don't have the healing or defenses to pull off a melee build. I can see a problem with this though from a mag dk perspective. If all classes are just bypassing wings wouldn't that make them useless. What's the point of slotting wings if no one plays with projectiles or most projectiles go through wings?

Darkenarlol wrote: »

DK crying about sorcs? SORCS CARL!! srsly?

dude you are late for 1.5 weeks on april's fools day

mean while the Templars and Wardens are sitting at the table sippin gtheir drinks, laughing their asses off.

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

What happened? Did a DK reflect a light attack and not die to the cookie cutter Sorc combo that 80% of the players in Cyrodil run when they aren't stacking sheilds and kiting away?


It seems every other change to the PvP community has something to do with ZOS pampering to these "elite sorcerers" who seem to have an issue anytime they lose a fight,, and I guess they should have an issue since they have almost every advantage in the game already

Sorcs get Curse and Mages Wrath for their damage stack, after Ruin Cage of course... and will be behind 2 sheilds (maybe you can nerf shield breaker again!) probably, hiding behind pets which always seem to be in the way even when your target locked on the Sorc himself,: but who cares because with their massive Magicka pool, unlimited regen they will likely just streak all the way across the Cyrodil the first time they are hit.
or course healing with every attack..

Hey but we can still make a lame ass tank with our Mag DK's since that seems to be the only thing we are supposed to make right? No Execute, the biggest attack is Flame Lash which was essentially ruined when you changed off balance immunity and made the skill utterly unreliable not to mention it's absurdly slow to begin with.


As someone who has mained a Mag DK since day 1, and remembers when there was only like 2 in all of Cyrodil (and still stuck with it)

---

this is disgusting
So many I can'r remember them all!!
1) Off Balance Immunity killed Flame Lash for the few light armor high DPS Mag DK's out there
2) Standard of Might caps defile at a weak 30%, easily overcome by the massive healing everyone has
3) Heavy Attack Damage nerfed, Molten Armaments
4) Igneous Sheild made worthless
5) Dark Elves lose Flame Damage buff (this was for Mag Dk's.... not Fire Sorcs, lol)
6) Dragon Leap is terrible to target and half the time "misses" even though you land on them... absurd
7) Magma Armor is essentially worthless in PvP, can't remember the last time I saw anyone use it.
----that's enough I am sure there is more....

all truth, and i do agree that the literal Hundreds of threads, come from the sorcs.
this forum is hugely biased and lean only to sorcs as the main population.
so all the views and comments we see here, are Largely based on, and written by sorcerers.
and when you see their loose to a battle of words on the forum that goes against what they want, then they allways proclaim

"NO, I PLAY Dragonight!, i play ALL the classes" (which i do believe is not true, i think they lie and they only play sorcerer)
as if thier word is above others in view point and intelligence.

we need a more balanced forum, that includes ALL of the @accountnames and accounts in eso on here to join in on the conversation and not be so one sided with all sorcerers point of view.

i do not think the nerf to wings is justified, and i do not agree with the wings nerf that we have HEARD BY RUMOR is going to happen.
at this point it is Only a Rumor.