Minalan wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Exactly what I thought. You don't really give a *** about balance. You just want to pewpew with no repercussions from a safe distance. "I'm So GoOd! I KiLlEd HiM dEaD wHiLe He Couldn'T rEaCh Me!"

Honestly, if they manage to "pewpew" you from a distance while you have up to 75% dmg mitigation before maim, block, protection etc then you should probably delete all your DKs and never play one again cause obviously you dont know even the basics of the class and no amount of buffs are going to help you do better.

You'd probably have to go over the tutorials of the game again. This time dont skip them.

Maim from our melee based talons? Oh! Block!!! That’s a good counter to a barrage of ranged attacks! We’ll block our attackers to death!

Gee thanks for the helpful tips. You should be the DK class rep!

The psijic ult gives minor protection. Pirate skeleton gives major protection. The two together make you effectively immune to ranged attacks with wings.

You have options. I'm with you really, 50 percent damage reduction for six full seconds without a cap is ridiculously OP. I'd rather deal with your current crappy 4 shot reflect before that.

I really shouldnt have to explain why it's better than the current wings. It is.

The Psijiic ultimate that doesn’t help us with Battle Roar? Which is also a major source of our sustain...

And how many DKs use Pirate Skeleton?

If the change is so ridiculously OP- why are there so many ranged Sorcs and NBs celebrating? Sounds like they just got an easier kill rate against DKs.

Maulkin wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Exactly what I thought. You don't really give a *** about balance. You just want to pewpew with no repercussions from a safe distance. "I'm So GoOd! I KiLlEd HiM dEaD wHiLe He Couldn'T rEaCh Me!"

Honestly, if they manage to "pewpew" you from a distance while you have up to 75% dmg mitigation before maim, block, protection etc then you should probably delete all your DKs and never play one again cause obviously you dont know even the basics of the class and no amount of buffs are going to help you do better.

You'd probably have to go over the tutorials of the game again. This time dont skip them.

Maim from our melee based talons? Oh! Block!!! That’s a good counter to a barrage of ranged attacks! We’ll block our attackers to death!

Gee thanks for the helpful tips. You should be the DK class rep!

The psijic ult gives minor protection. Pirate skeleton gives major protection. The two together make you effectively immune to ranged attacks with wings.

You have options. I'm with you really, 50 percent damage reduction for six full seconds without a cap is ridiculously OP. I'd rather deal with your current crappy 4 shot reflect before that.

I really shouldnt have to explain why it's better than the current wings. It is.

The Psijiic ultimate that doesn’t help us with Battle Roar? Which is also a major source of our sustain...

And how many DKs use Pirate Skeleton?

If the change is so ridiculously OP- why are there so many ranged Sorcs and NBs celebrating? Sounds like they just got an easier kill rate against DKs.

Psijic Ult is just for slotting not for using, you living meme.

And magblades are happier because at least they won't be CCing and killing themselves with their own skills, not because DK will somehow be easy to kill with 50% extra damage mitigation to all their attacks.

Great! We’ll slot a psijiic ultimate that we’ll never actually be able to fully use.

satanio wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Psijic Ult is just for slotting not for using, you living meme.

I expect that you know how mitigation work and when its practically useless to even think about another 8% of a reduction.

Theres like 3 dks(including me) in the topic that repeat the same, and 4 NBs that repeat the same. Nobody seems to change his/her own opinion.

I ain't no Nightblade if you looking to count me in that. I have one I have played one I also have a do and have played that. I mostly play my magSorc and stamSorc and then magPlar and stamDK. But I ain't no "Nightblade"

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Regarding reach, the only thing that prevents mindless spamming of flame, shock and frost reach are wings. After wings are nerfed the complaints will be against that skill that will not have any counter play. So we will move from a skill with "few" counterplay, to several skills with just 2 counters (spell wall and Posture in the S/B line)

So block, dodge and 50% dmg reduction are not considered counters now?

How much can a mDK block and dodge reach? Spam reach until stam is gone. mDKs have teeny tine stam pools and they can't build towards block or dogge cost reduction, because that turns most skills into wet noodles, and then the complaint will be "Uh, Dks are unkillable"

Nerfing wings is not a solution, it is just bad design. Make strife go through wings and improve CW and they will have much less problems against wings. In the case of sorcs, just give them they god dammned spammable and make it go through wings (both versions, stam and magicka), but don't touch wings. They are a necessary evil to make the reach spammer think it twice before spamming that skill.

The rework to wings will only force DKs to spamm wings anyway to get the snare Root/immunity. In fact, no DK uses wings for the reflect, otherwise the other morph (DFS) would be the option for default (20% extra dmg on the reflect)

Even if i were to accept these dumb excuses that DKs cant use dodge or block because "reasons" u are still wrong because 50% dmg reduction by itself is a counter genius. Do you even comprehend what 50% dmg reduction means? Stacked with ur armor dmg reduction alone, you will be taking dmg from projectiles as if you were in mistform. If that much reduction isnt a counter to an ability that needs a specific weapon to even do viable dmg then what is?

Also if wings is the only counter to projectiles then by definition no class has a counter to projectiles cause wings is a class ability. Oh wait i forgot, the other classes can dodge and block, only DKs cant because "reasons".

Also if you need specific counters to spammable abilities then where is my counter that reflects flame lash back in ur face? I mean, according to your logic flame lash doesnt have a counter so i want one. Then id like one for surprise attack. Id say jabs too but the counter to jabs is built in the ability itself

Also if no one is using wings for reflect because its so useless and ZOS reworks the reflect portion of the skill to something else then why the hell are u complaining about nerfs? If that were the case then reworking the useless portion of the ability means that the ability is getting buffed, not nerfed. lol. At least think before you post.

Look i dont like wings changing to 50% dmg reduction either because imo that doesnt fix the issues with the ability being obnoxious in 1v1 while scaling horribly with numbers. But just because i dont like the change im not gonna sit here and say all sorts of dumb things. You literally contradicted ur own arguments multiple times in one post. Again, think before you post because the only thing you get with posts like that is quickly discrediting anything you say.

Ok, too much wrong information, let's start:

1- We are talking abot magDk, right? Stam DK cannot keep wings up because it cannot build towards magicka regen, so the mechanics that spec uses to avoid dmg is block and dodge. MagDK cannot use block and dodge as reliable as stam DK because that spec builds towards magicka regen, So if your solution for mDK is to block or dodge, then you know nothing about the class. ZoS designed DKs to be the "Stay your ground" class, now they want to strip the class from that identity without giving ANYTHING in turn.

2- 50% dmg reduction will allow you to receive less dmg, but dmg is no problem for DK at all (the tank class, you know). What DKs lack, a lot are offensive skills and mobility. Wings cover boths, offensive and mobility, so a dmg reduction skill will be more of the same. And it is not even a 50% dmg reduction in all skills as I have explained, it only covers just one small part of the dmg skills in the game: projectiles. If you count the amount of skills that are countered by wings, right know yu will be impressed, it only counters 15 skills in all the game. Those 15 skills should be the same that are covered by new wings (plus 1 or 2 of the necro). What's more of a problem is the fact that wings help DK to no get resnared after the snare inmmunity has gone, proven you haven't received 4 projectiles. With the change, you will likely spam wings each 2 secs to reapply the snare protection. Do it sounds ok on a class that struggles with mobility? It is much, much better to go back to mist form in that case, just because 75% on ALL dmg skills + major exp + snare immunity beats 50% on 15 skills + snare immunity

3- The counter to lash it has always been range, block and dodge. The difference is that lash hits for much much less that grim focus or frags and implies much more risk. Now frags and will are uncounterable and still hit much harder than lash (not to mention that both are used for classes that lean towards spell crit dmg. I still have to see a DK buiold with over 50% crit chance in PvP.

4- As I said above, the skill covers 2 of the problems of DK, dmg and mobility. Without dmg, it is much better choice to go for mist form. And that, again, will force DKs to go Vamp, so it is a step back to pre-morrowind when wings were remotely used.

5- Before supporting a change that's clearly a nerf, you should think what the change implies. No DK will ever slot wings again. So think again when supporting this change. It is more likely we will go back to 1.6, when DKs were rarerly seen in Cyro.

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Regarding reach, the only thing that prevents mindless spamming of flame, shock and frost reach are wings. After wings are nerfed the complaints will be against that skill that will not have any counter play. So we will move from a skill with "few" counterplay, to several skills with just 2 counters (spell wall and Posture in the S/B line)

So block, dodge and 50% dmg reduction are not considered counters now?

How much can a mDK block and dodge reach? Spam reach until stam is gone. mDKs have teeny tine stam pools and they can't build towards block or dogge cost reduction, because that turns most skills into wet noodles, and then the complaint will be "Uh, Dks are unkillable"

Nerfing wings is not a solution, it is just bad design. Make strife go through wings and improve CW and they will have much less problems against wings. In the case of sorcs, just give them they god dammned spammable and make it go through wings (both versions, stam and magicka), but don't touch wings. They are a necessary evil to make the reach spammer think it twice before spamming that skill.

The rework to wings will only force DKs to spamm wings anyway to get the snare Root/immunity. In fact, no DK uses wings for the reflect, otherwise the other morph (DFS) would be the option for default (20% extra dmg on the reflect)

Even if i were to accept these dumb excuses that DKs cant use dodge or block because "reasons" u are still wrong because 50% dmg reduction by itself is a counter genius. Do you even comprehend what 50% dmg reduction means? Stacked with ur armor dmg reduction alone, you will be taking dmg from projectiles as if you were in mistform. If that much reduction isnt a counter to an ability that needs a specific weapon to even do viable dmg then what is?

Also if wings is the only counter to projectiles then by definition no class has a counter to projectiles cause wings is a class ability. Oh wait i forgot, the other classes can dodge and block, only DKs cant because "reasons".

Also if you need specific counters to spammable abilities then where is my counter that reflects flame lash back in ur face? I mean, according to your logic flame lash doesnt have a counter so i want one. Then id like one for surprise attack. Id say jabs too but the counter to jabs is built in the ability itself

Also if no one is using wings for reflect because its so useless and ZOS reworks the reflect portion of the skill to something else then why the hell are u complaining about nerfs? If that were the case then reworking the useless portion of the ability means that the ability is getting buffed, not nerfed. lol. At least think before you post.

Look i dont like wings changing to 50% dmg reduction either because imo that doesnt fix the issues with the ability being obnoxious in 1v1 while scaling horribly with numbers. But just because i dont like the change im not gonna sit here and say all sorts of dumb things. You literally contradicted ur own arguments multiple times in one post. Again, think before you post because the only thing you get with posts like that is quickly discrediting anything you say.

Ok, too much wrong information, let's start:

1- We are talking abot magDk, right? Stam DK cannot keep wings up because it cannot build towards magicka regen, so the mechanics that spec uses to avoid dmg is block and dodge. MagDK cannot use block and dodge as reliable as stam DK because that spec builds towards magicka regen, So if your solution for mDK is to block or dodge, then you know nothing about the class. ZoS designed DKs to be the "Stay your ground" class, now they want to strip the class from that identity without giving ANYTHING in turn.

2- 50% dmg reduction will allow you to receive less dmg, but dmg is no problem for DK at all (the tank class, you know). What DKs lack, a lot are offensive skills and mobility. Wings cover boths, offensive and mobility, so a dmg reduction skill will be more of the same. And it is not even a 50% dmg reduction in all skills as I have explained, it only covers just one small part of the dmg skills in the game: projectiles. If you count the amount of skills that are countered by wings, right know yu will be impressed, it only counters 15 skills in all the game. Those 15 skills should be the same that are covered by new wings (plus 1 or 2 of the necro). What's more of a problem is the fact that wings help DK to no get resnared after the snare inmmunity has gone, proven you haven't received 4 projectiles. With the change, you will likely spam wings each 2 secs to reapply the snare protection. Do it sounds ok on a class that struggles with mobility? It is much, much better to go back to mist form in that case, just because 75% on ALL dmg skills + major exp + snare immunity beats 50% on 15 skills + snare immunity

3- The counter to lash it has always been range, block and dodge. The difference is that lash hits for much much less that grim focus or frags and implies much more risk. Now frags and will are uncounterable and still hit much harder than lash (not to mention that both are used for classes that lean towards spell crit dmg. I still have to see a DK buiold with over 50% crit chance in PvP.

4- As I said above, the skill covers 2 of the problems of DK, dmg and mobility. Without dmg, it is much better choice to go for mist form. And that, again, will force DKs to go Vamp, so it is a step back to pre-morrowind when wings were remotely used.

5- Before supporting a change that's clearly a nerf, you should think what the change implies. No DK will ever slot wings again. So think again when supporting this change. It is more likely we will go back to 1.6, when DKs were rarerly seen in Cyro.

I didn't know the patch was live... Where did you read they were giving nothing in return. Link those sweet natch potes!!! In assuming you've read it since you know they haven't given anything in return...

Cortimi wrote: »

Also, how's about a Stam morph for whip, since you are already changing stuff. Would help reduce Dizzying Swing abuse.

stam whip is a damn good idea

Gorrest wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Great! We’ll slot a psijiic ultimate that we’ll never actually be able to fully use.

Not fully able to use, useable in a buggy state. Battle Roar works with Psjiic Ult if you stop moving and then cast. Will get tele back the 4 seconds(More like 3 since you have to wait to come to a stop), get your resources back, and get battle roar. However, if you move when you cast Psjiic Ult you wont Battle Roar.

While that's somewhat helpful @Gorrest - I'd imagine that it would be a "bug" that ZOS does not intend. And will probably be fixed in the future. I wouldn't recommend relying on it as a source of Battle Roar regen.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Exactly what I thought. You don't really give a *** about balance. You just want to pewpew with no repercussions from a safe distance. "I'm So GoOd! I KiLlEd HiM dEaD wHiLe He Couldn'T rEaCh Me!"

Honestly, if they manage to "pewpew" you from a distance while you have up to 75% dmg mitigation before maim, block, protection etc then you should probably delete all your DKs and never play one again cause obviously you dont know even the basics of the class and no amount of buffs are going to help you do better.

You'd probably have to go over the tutorials of the game again. This time dont skip them.

Maim from our melee based talons? Oh! Block!!! That’s a good counter to a barrage of ranged attacks! We’ll block our attackers to death!

Gee thanks for the helpful tips. You should be the DK class rep!

The psijic ult gives minor protection. Pirate skeleton gives major protection. The two together make you effectively immune to ranged attacks with wings.

You have options. I'm with you really, 50 percent damage reduction for six full seconds without a cap is ridiculously OP. I'd rather deal with your current crappy 4 shot reflect before that.

I really shouldnt have to explain why it's better than the current wings. It is.

The Psijiic ultimate that doesn’t help us with Battle Roar? Which is also a major source of our sustain...

And how many DKs use Pirate Skeleton?

If the change is so ridiculously OP- why are there so many ranged Sorcs and NBs celebrating? Sounds like they just got an easier kill rate against DKs.

Psijic Ult is just for slotting not for using, you living meme.

And magblades are happier because at least they won't be CCing and killing themselves with their own skills, not because DK will somehow be easy to kill with 50% extra damage mitigation to all their attacks.

Great! We’ll slot a psijiic ultimate that we’ll never actually be able to fully use.

I slot it on the back bar and mop fools! That being said, the rumored nerf to wings is stupid. 4 projectiles, 6 seconds is not op in a 1vX or an XvX and only seemingly op in a 1v1.

Vs multiple players 4 projectiles is not enough. In a 1v1 it’s more a question of timing, waiting for wings to be down. So...L2P issue? I unno. Duel more.

1v1 a MagDK, wings will never be down... Even for stamina DKs is easy to maintain 100% wings up time if they time it with roll dodge and block.

Keep roll dodging and wing spamming, and the DK is pretty much unkillable for a range character in 1v1 scenarios...

Haven't even read the nurf, but this is something that I've begged for years, there is no reason in hell one class shoould be able to hard counter another by simply spamming one ability or having it on the ability bar. Dk tears

I keep seeing stuff on here about the wings nerf, but I've got no idea where the chatter started. Can someone link me the original information?

Bergzorn wrote: »

And whoever thinks a skill that gives 50% damage reduction against projectiles with guaranteed uptime on a class that has very strong close-range capabilities is not worth slotting, I can't help you.

Still, those projectiles are not only dmg, they often carry some side effects (dots, status effects and so on).

This proposed wing change is bad for build diversity. It is only useful if your already bulky.

My glass cannon dk would much rather reflect 4 snipes then eat 2.