Pull in tanks and healers

Malprave · April 2019

Yeah. I ran Vet Cradle of Shadows the other day and got one crummy transmute crystal. Don’t get me wrong, I love that dungeon, but it did make me pause when I only got one crystal.

Malprave · April 2019

DenMoria wrote: »

Honestly, I find it hilarious that 90% of players are just DD's.

They would rather run through and slaughter everything with no challenge.

They are incredibly shocked that I actually heal them.

It's just plain weird. Understandable, but weird.

Just saw this. My tank nearly has a stroke if he gets a heal, or god forbid somebody drops him a shard!
#pugtanklife

DenMoria · April 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Healers are not needed in 4-man content.

Well... aren't y'all just perfect players.

Some of us don't enjoy just beating on our enemies and like to work as teams.

DenMoria · April 2019

Malprave wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Honestly, I find it hilarious that 90% of players are just DD's.

They would rather run through and slaughter everything with no challenge.

They are incredibly shocked that I actually heal them.

It's just plain weird. Understandable, but weird.

Just saw this. My tank nearly has a stroke if he gets a heal, or god forbid somebody drops him a shard!
#pugtanklife

Check out @facefisters response.

This is why there are no healers or tanks about.

Apparently, nobody wants them.

As shame really, since I LIKE playing them.

AcadianPaladin · April 2019

My tank (like most tanks) dislikes pugs because he is dependent upon solid dps. He can manage his health and resources but delivering notable damage is the one thing he cannot do. Further, pugs seem to unerringly charge in ahead of the tank instead of allowing the tank to pull and gain initial control of the fight.

Now that said, the main reason I learned how to tank was to give my healer an appreciation for what a tank needs/wants from their healer. That is the same reason I have a couple dps characters as well - to ensure my healer has an understanding of other roles. My real passion is my healer. . . .

Unlike the tank, my healer is perfectly happy pugging. She is all about being close behind her group and trying to respond/adjust on the fly to whatever a particular group seems to need. In fact, she is set up for pugs instead of formal groups and absolutely not for trials. Basically that means she doesn't slot Combat Prayer, does slot Sweeps and does not wear SPC. What can she do?
- Feed shards to the tank every 20 seconds. And again after each fight because she knows tanks are often low on stam after a big fight, have no stam regen and are under pressure to hurry on to the next fight.
- Keep the boss debuffed and under magicka steal for any magicka fighters.
- Keep one or two HoTs on everyone all the time to ease their job and proc Earthgore if/when needed.
- Anticipate damage spikes and cover the affected area with multiple healing springs to help.
- Deliver 10K dps that is purely incidental to her normal weaving and support skills (like shards/blockade). If the group is playing well, she is able to focus some on damage and push her damage contribution up to around 20K.
- In the event of a fake tank, she doesn't taunt but she can turtle up with Channeled Focus and Sweeps and spank a boss in the face as long as it takes to kill them.
- Happily take the blame for anything that goes wrong because she knows that it is always the healer's fault.

White wabbit · April 2019

Jamdarius wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

Imo alot of dd's are selfish I changed alot of my toons to tank spec to get a run in a dungeon, so why don't more people do this

Cause not all do enjoy tanking, I enjoy healing and being mag DD's, I do not enjoy being stam DD's also.

I dont enjoy tanking but with that many dd's moaning they cant get a dungeon run then there is a solution

Kesstryl · April 2019

Recently I tanked BC2 with some low CP dps and after the third wipe on the final boss, one of them had the gall to say to me "Why are you dying?". Ummm, too many effing adds knocking me around? Not to mention I was always the last one to die. Like they expected me to rez them when there were a ton of adds clustered around me. If you've ever done that dungeon on vet with low dps and more than three adds show up because we can't burn down the boss, you know what I mean. The worst part is blaming the tank for dying and not rezzing the group after they wipe. I ended up leaving. Too clueless and painful to deal with. True story.

profundidob16_ESO · April 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Healers are not needed in 4-man content.

ROFLMAO ! I'd like to see you your group try Frostvault HM without a healer...

Nerouyn · April 2019

ThePlayer wrote: »

At the moment there are few tanks and healers that go in queues, the DDs lose hours to complete even vet Fungal Grotto 1.

As I've said before, the problem is twofold and has nothing to do with loot.

1) The game punishes you to respec. You have to pay gold and spend time doing that to spec properly. Can you some many of the base game's dungeons without properly speccing to tank or healer? Sure. But the random dungeon finder could drop you in one of the dungeons where proper tanks and healers are actually required.

Damage is what you need for solo content, so dungeon queues are choc full of them.

2) Healing is dreadfully boring in this game because it's not really healing. It's mostly dps, a bit of buffing and occasionally tossing out a heal.

I've not tried tanking myself in ESO - because of the aforementioned cost - but I've read accounts that it's also boring. Knowing how boring healing is, I tend to believe to believe those accounts.

TheInfernalRage · April 2019

idk wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

This problem is once again that this game heavily favors a dps style of play for most base game dungeons where it is borderline impossible to carry a group as a "true" tank because at the end of the day everything in the dungeon needs to die, and some mechanics require decent dps to avoid one shots.

As a healer, you are mostly irrelevant. A DD with a single HOT can survive most encounters with a little bit of blocking or dodging as long as there is a tank. Most damage that is of any risk is essentially a one shot, so once again why be a healer?

And it's not like healing and tanking dungeons isn't an enjoyable or relaxing task at all, but it most certainly isn't if the DPS just isn't there.

What are you guys smoking? I’ve carried dungeons before as a healer multiple times.

A healer isn’t there to ‘just heal’. They increase the group’s dps by a lot plus do damage themselves. I’ve been in groups where I never dropped below 50% of the group’s dps as the healer. You can absolutely carry groups.

The issue mostly with tanks and healers who queue is they’re in raid specs optimized for 12 people. In a group of 4 if you’re healing and not doing some damage you’re getting carried.

The main reason why tanks and healers stop queuing once they have all the monster sets is poor dps players. In a good group who can clear a vet in under 15 minutes I’d probably still queue. Sometimes you get these crazy low dps groups and it’s a real chore.

The issue ultimately is the gap between top end and you’re average dps in the game. There are a lot of dps queuing and no one wants to group with them.

If you’re doing half the groups damage as a healer, the group is suck. I get it. I Do the same thing. Que as a healer on a StamBlade. Vigor heals ftw.

The healer problem is when you get this guy Ready to heal a trial and does %2 of the dungeon groups DPS. Which is the far more common scenario. Most healer do no damage. And that’s a big problem in a low damage group.

Umm, the sad thing is I have often out dpsed entire random groups on my healer that was pure trial healer build. Of course I slotted some dps skills but did not change CP or anything else.

That is how bad some GF groups are and why good tanks stopped using GF long ago.

Went to normal Depths of Malatar with some friends and a random player. We already played that dungeon before and it was very easy. With the random player, it was a bit different and something was off. So we started observing him/her. No freaking AOEs with his/her bow, and just running around the room with his/her light attacks and snipe. This is why I seldom pug. It's frustrating that many of these players do not take time to learn skills; and when they do copy some supposedly OP build in YouTube, they have no freaking clue how to play the build. Some of these DDs probably spend so much time beating the crap out of a dummy and never even took some time learning about dungeon mechanics. Here's to the guy who hid behind my shield hoping it would save him from Selene's bear attack.

SydneyGrey · April 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Healers are not needed in 4-man content.

LOL. I'm betting you never notice all the buffs and shields you get from the healers.

MaleAmazon · April 2019

Ok I´ll try to be helpful.

All my characters (pretty much) play as DDs until lvl 50 for obvious reasons. And yes the respecing is a bit of a punishment. BUT: I can assure you that you can tank everything up to vBF on a medium stamina DD without respecing, and probably higher dungeons as well with a good group:

My main character is a stam Nightblade DD, however for dailies I just switch to fortified brass + green pact (keep Stormfist) which gives 32k-ish HP and capped resistances when major resolve/ward is active. You can go Chudan for permanent resistance bonus and extra HP. You can also go monster set + 5-set + endurance jewelry + maelstrom or other weapons (I used to do that before I deleted that character

). You can tank everything up to the later vet DLC dungeons with this. If you can get one heavy + one medium Chudan and craft a heavy Fortified Brass breastplate you´re good to go while keeping 5p medium bonuses. My gear isn´t golded out either.

You don´t even need to slot 1H+S, an unmorphed undaunted inner fire does fine.

I would imagine a magicka DD could have a similar setup, and any magicka DD should also easily be able to switch to healer by just changing skills + using resto staff.

Tanking isn´t that much about stats anyway, it´s about learning what you need to taunt and what you don´t need to taunt, learning when to block and when to just heavy attack to regen stamina, which things need interrupting (not necessarily by you) and which attacks you can just take on the chin, things like that.

This makes PUGing so much smoother.

Try tanking, it´s a fun change of pace

vesselwiththepestle · April 2019

I don't like to queue as tank mostly because of fake dps and players not knowing basic mechanics. Sometimes it's like they don't even try. Most annoying are players who aren't answering in chat if something's wrong.

The game needs to do a better job to explain dps and dungeon mechanics to casual players.

Jazz_Funk · April 2019

I like to play as a tank or a healer but usually only do pledges as a favor for friends who need a tank. Pledges are just not much use to me for a number of reasons.
- I have ever single helm in all weights and multiple traits
- I have over 3k unused gold keys
- I get so many transmute crystals from pvp they are an inventory problem
- Queueing is an issue for me as has been a bug for some time that effects anyone CP 1600+ (you can queue on your own or with a group of 4 but not as a group of 2 or 3 people)

Huyen · April 2019

DenMoria wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Healers are not needed in 4-man content.

Well... aren't y'all just perfect players.

Some of us don't enjoy just beating on our enemies and like to work as teams.

LFG dungeons on vet are meant tondo as a team. However, the children these days are being raised with a complete lack of teamwork, or empathy and that is showing in online games. Overwatch for example is a teambased shooter, but on the consoles its the most toxic and horrifying community I've ever seen in all the years I play online. Unless we all care a bit more about the groups we join, the problem wont sort itself out.

EpicRekkoning · April 2019

White wabbit wrote: »

Make tanking fun that way more might run tanks , I'll be thr first to say I'm not great playing this game but some of these dlc dungeons make me want to not bother .

Tanking is very fun in 4 man content. There's a number of non-trial builds for all classes that bring unique tank styles (besides perma blocking of a DK).

The dlc dungeons are fun once you learn the mechanics, but you do need to have good dps and a good healer/tank (some can be done without a healer). Otherwise, there's no chance on vet.

I still enjoy running dungeons, but I do them mainly for keys and transmute crystals. I do wish the would add more crystal drops from dungeons. I'm not a big pvp guy and that's the most efficient way of getting crystals. I wouldn't mind seeing purple crystals 100% drop on vet final bosses and a chance to drop on all other vet bosses.

IAmBones · April 2019

Fellwitch wrote: »

I pug vet dungeons and I think it is not an issue of geared vs non-geared, it is more clueless vs competent players.

For example, many people do one of the following (or sometimes more):
Do not use a food/drink buff

Do not use a potion if their health is low, even during a boss fight. (Possibly they do not even have potions)

Use single-target abilities on trash mobs / seem to have no AoE

Die repeatedly in ground AoE circles

Randomly go afk before pulls

Loot randomly around the room before joining the next trash pull

Refuse to use any sort of healing ability

Pull the boss encounter in hard-mode and get one-shot (happens all the time)

Pull packs of mobs and get one-shot (happens all the time)

Express rage at the healer

Express rage at the tank

Not speak English (doesn't happen so frequently, now I only have this problem with Russians or French)

Queue pops and I find the other 3 are all DPS stuck at a boss and need a tank. They wipe over and over.

What I do not know:

How many people play this game without matching sets and have random quality gear on. I am sure it is much, much higher than you or I think.

I think for certain veteran dungeons you should have at least a blue gear minimum level, purple required for some of the DLC dungeons. It is not a perfect solution but it is at least forcing people who may not understand game mechanics to have at least a baseline of gear.

And you wonder why less and less people are willing to join the dungeon's. Do you take the time to educate these people? It is clearly obvious you were "born" with the knowledge of grouping in dungeon's, no wait, you were not "born" with this knowledge. How did you learn? Was it magic? Or did someone else "teach" you. Try "Paying it Forward" you would be surprised how many people are willing to learn, but it does take time, and they will make mistakes...just like YOU did when you started. The day you think "others" are hindering your game play because they are not as "good" as you or as "smart" as you are, it's probably time to stop playing. My friend you are losing the very reason we play, for FUN.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · April 2019

Fellwitch wrote: »

I pug vet dungeons and I think it is not an issue of geared vs non-geared, it is more clueless vs competent players.

For example, many people do one of the following (or sometimes more):
Do not use a food/drink buff

Do not use a potion if their health is low, even during a boss fight. (Possibly they do not even have potions)

Use single-target abilities on trash mobs / seem to have no AoE

Die repeatedly in ground AoE circles

Randomly go afk before pulls

Loot randomly around the room before joining the next trash pull

Refuse to use any sort of healing ability

Pull the boss encounter in hard-mode and get one-shot (happens all the time)

Pull packs of mobs and get one-shot (happens all the time)

Express rage at the healer

Express rage at the tank

Not speak English (doesn't happen so frequently, now I only have this problem with Russians or French)

Queue pops and I find the other 3 are all DPS stuck at a boss and need a tank. They wipe over and over.

What I do not know:

How many people play this game without matching sets and have random quality gear on. I am sure it is much, much higher than you or I think.

I think for certain veteran dungeons you should have at least a blue gear minimum level, purple required for some of the DLC dungeons. It is not a perfect solution but it is at least forcing people who may not understand game mechanics to have at least a baseline of gear.

Agree 100%. I too have run into this on the NA PC server. Really irritating when I see the Healer and both DPS over 1,000 CP using light attacks, dropping mines, spamming BOL and standing in red dying over and over. Some people just don't know how to operate their characters.

Pevey · April 2019

Two good dps put out enough damage to clear any vet dungeon in the game quickly. I like having a healer along since i mostly play squishy stam and don't want to be spamming vigor all the time. I prefer to dps and let a healer heal me. I really don't get people who do 3-dps groups when two dds pulling 50k each because of Olo and IA provided by their nice healer, who also lets them get up close and personal with the boss and not worry about healing and dying, can do the job in no time.

Pevey · April 2019

Pevey wrote: »

Two good dps put out enough damage to clear any vet dungeon in the game quickly. I like having a healer along since i mostly play squishy stam and don't want to be spamming vigor all the time. I prefer to dps and let a healer heal me. I really don't get people who do 3-dps groups when two dds pulling 50k each because of Olo and IA provided by their nice healer, who also lets them get up close and personal with the boss and not worry about healing and dying, can do the job in no time.

EDIT: Oh, and warhorn. I love me a healer who can, along with the tank, provide near constant warhorn.

xan4silkb14_ESO · April 2019

Nerouyn wrote: »

ThePlayer wrote: »

At the moment there are few tanks and healers that go in queues, the DDs lose hours to complete even vet Fungal Grotto 1.

As I've said before, the problem is twofold and has nothing to do with loot.

1) The game punishes you to respec. You have to pay gold and spend time doing that to spec properly. Can you some many of the base game's dungeons without properly speccing to tank or healer? Sure. But the random dungeon finder could drop you in one of the dungeons where proper tanks and healers are actually required.

Damage is what you need for solo content, so dungeon queues are choc full of them.

2) Healing is dreadfully boring in this game because it's not really healing. It's mostly dps, a bit of buffing and occasionally tossing out a heal.

I've not tried tanking myself in ESO - because of the aforementioned cost - but I've read accounts that it's also boring. Knowing how boring healing is, I tend to believe to believe those accounts.

You don't need that much damage to do solo content. Sure it's easier and faster if you do, but not that necessary. When it comes to solo content I'm usually a lazy tank. I don't respec for damage but work on what I want to do when tanking 4-man dungeons. I've even tried to solo normal Spindleclutch 1 before and made it as far as the Whisperer with my subpar dps. I keep meaning to do something to increase that a little but I get more interested in just doing the quests or pledges than increasing my dps without impacting my tankiness.

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

Pevey wrote: »

Two good dps put out enough damage to clear any vet dungeon in the game quickly. I like having a healer along since i mostly play squishy stam and don't want to be spamming vigor all the time. I prefer to dps and let a healer heal me. I really don't get people who do 3-dps groups when two dds pulling 50k each because of Olo and IA provided by their nice healer, who also lets them get up close and personal with the boss and not worry about healing and dying, can do the job in no time.

It'a awesome point of view and I agree with it completely. Unfortunately, it's < 10% chance to meet such group. In majority of cases you got tank who only taunts boss and couple of big adds and permablocks (which is not worst situation tbh), healer who spams random heals or uses only mutagen+BoL (so he kinda heals but you can't rely on him), one dps who more or less carries his weight (it's usually "you") and other dps who does god knows what. No matter why wipe has happened, "other" dps will blame others for it, well because he "already completed this before with other group which weren't loons" (and so expected to be carried again). Practice shows that "other DPS" is also relatively low CP (300-400).

eliisra · April 2019

I wouldn't mind tanking or healing daily pledges a few extra times if I got a nice reward out of it! It's one thing doing it again to help friends, but pretty much no one will tank pledges for fun to help complete strangers. Because it's rarely fun.

Adding some incentive to re-run pledges and helping others complete, might be a good idea. However, it's not just tanks that's desperately needed when it comes to PUGs. Getting good dps to join random groups is just as much of a headache and lacking it is normally the reason it fails.

That's why om not entirely sure if rewarding healers and tanks to re-run pledges will fix everything. Because getting a solid dps joining, will make a huge difference to. As someone that mainly tanks, I'm always really grateful and happy when I can get a decent dps friend come help me do my pledge.

Enzym3 · April 2019

I agree that there needs to be more incentive for dungeons.

I started this game as a tank then healer and I have ended up with 11 DPS and no tanks or healers because personally I find it boring as watching paint dry

I almost only play ESO now to go into battlegrounds so the only time you see me doing vet content is if I have made a new character and need undaunted 9, apart from that I have absolutely no reason to ever enter a dungeon anymore.

DenMoria · April 2019

Huyen wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Healers are not needed in 4-man content.

Well... aren't y'all just perfect players.

Some of us don't enjoy just beating on our enemies and like to work as teams.

LFG dungeons on vet are meant tondo as a team. However, the children these days are being raised with a complete lack of teamwork, or empathy and that is showing in online games. Overwatch for example is a teambased shooter, but on the consoles its the most toxic and horrifying community I've ever seen in all the years I play online. Unless we all care a bit more about the groups we join, the problem wont sort itself out.

To quote someone I just ran with: "I just want the loot".

Rush through, beat everything, die a few times (despite my best efforts - STAY OUT OF THE RED DINGBAT!) and still walk away with next to nothing.

Sheesh

DenMoria · April 2019

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

I pug vet dungeons and I think it is not an issue of geared vs non-geared, it is more clueless vs competent players.

For example, many people do one of the following (or sometimes more):
Do not use a food/drink buff

Do not use a potion if their health is low, even during a boss fight. (Possibly they do not even have potions)

Use single-target abilities on trash mobs / seem to have no AoE

Die repeatedly in ground AoE circles

Randomly go afk before pulls

Loot randomly around the room before joining the next trash pull

Refuse to use any sort of healing ability

Pull the boss encounter in hard-mode and get one-shot (happens all the time)

Pull packs of mobs and get one-shot (happens all the time)

Express rage at the healer

Express rage at the tank

Not speak English (doesn't happen so frequently, now I only have this problem with Russians or French)

Queue pops and I find the other 3 are all DPS stuck at a boss and need a tank. They wipe over and over.

What I do not know:

How many people play this game without matching sets and have random quality gear on. I am sure it is much, much higher than you or I think.

I think for certain veteran dungeons you should have at least a blue gear minimum level, purple required for some of the DLC dungeons. It is not a perfect solution but it is at least forcing people who may not understand game mechanics to have at least a baseline of gear.

Agree 100%. I too have run into this on the NA PC server. Really irritating when I see the Healer and both DPS over 1,000 CP using light attacks, dropping mines, spamming BOL and standing in red dying over and over. Some people just don't know how to operate their characters.

Okay... I can deal with the DPS, but what kind of healer hasn't a clue about staying out of the red, let alone healing themselves! Healer! Heal thyself (and, of course, keep your tank buffed and healed).

Sheesh...

ThePlayer · April 2019

This post naturally refers to vet dungeons, those that it is not possible to complete without a healer or tank, and also those that could be completed without healers but not nice with random groups.
I don't like the idea of completing veteran dungeons with groups formed by DDs alone or with 3 DDs. Better to play with your own role in random groups! You want to play fake role, okay? but with your friends! Do you want to play with pvp build? always do it with your friends!
The post questions the final loot that does not satisfy enough, does not talk about what should already be clear.

ThePlayer · April 2019

I also advise all players who find fake role/pvp build, in random dungeons groups, to immediately kick them and put them in the ignore list for at least 6 months.

Commancho · April 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Healers are not needed in 4-man content.

Let's have 11 strikers in a football team so we can score more goals, right? ;-)

Iskiab wrote: »

A healer isn’t there to ‘just heal’. They increase the group’s dps by a lot plus do damage themselves. I’ve been in groups where I never dropped below 50% of the group’s dps as the healer. You can absolutely carry groups.

Don't even try to explain them this, you are wasting your time.

Pevey · April 2019

ThePlayer wrote: »

I also advise all players who find fake role/pvp build, in random dungeons groups, to immediately kick them and put them in the ignore list for at least 6 months.

You can still get grouped with people on your ignore list. It's just a chat ignore list, apparently. I learned this because i guess at some point i put someone on ignore (probably for baiting comments in zone chat or something, nothing personal, just didn't want to see it) then later got grouped with them and then had a weird experience where I found out later that they were typing in group chat but i couldn't see their messages. Only figured it out toward the end, based on comments from the other two people.