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"The Elder Scrolls Online" Vvardenfell vs. "The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind" Vvardenfell
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »So I got the free version last week. Played for around 30 minutes before it was obvious that I would have to mod the game to keep going. Movement was outrageously slow, had to sleep between each fight to get any Magicka back and my worst fears; that the major/minor system was basically identical to oblivion was a deal breaker.
Found the STEP guide and installed around 120 mods and now the game looks (I didn't bother to mention the obviously dated graphics) and plays very well.
I now look forward to seeing the rest of the game.
Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
I defeated an Dremora lord in lv 1 on Morrowind by using levitation + bound bow, managed to steal an glass armor at lv 7 with some illusion spells, etc. On DLC's, there are a lot of enemies with spell reflection and spell absorption.
In Morrowind, Daggerfall and to some extent Oblivion, defensive magic is far more powerful than offensive magic.
I dunno, seemed to me that the best way to become a great wizard in Morrowind was to craft a 1pt spell in whatever school I wanted to level and then cast it a bunch of times while micromanaging my leveling bonuses. Same for Oblivion, for that matter.
I'm sure Divayth Fyr and the rest of the Telvanni were greatly impressed with my spellcasting abilities.
That is using an broken mechanic.
The best way to level up on Morrowind is to search money and trainers. There are an vampire crypt relative near Balmora that drops vampire dust and dark brotherwood armor can give a lot of money. Spam the same spell 400 times is too boring IMO
Boring, perhaps, but an excellent way to cope with Morrowind's leveling mechanics.
Maybe you liked it, but I neither wanted for money nor enjoyed the math needed at every level up.
To each their own.
What i din't liked about morrowind is that is technically possible to max every single stat except lucky. IMO you should get one +5 attribute, one +3 and one +1 regardless of the skills that you leveled until lv 15 and then just +3/+1 until lv 30. After lv 30, only +1 attribute.
But no, try to get money via questing, via exploring, etc is far more interesting than do the same battle or spam the same skill over and over like other games. One game that i loved the leveling process was Vampire the masquerade bloodlines. You don't get a single point of XP by battling, you need to go on and explore and do quests in order to get XP.
Maybe its just that I stumbled into a ruin north of Aldruhn where some guy had Ebony armor, but I never lacked for money in Morgame. If anything, I lacked for merchants who could afford to buy what I was selling, even with the ridiculous workarounds for that.
I enjoyed Morrowind, don't get me wrong. But its had some major quirks.
Thats makes sense. You are selling an godlike artifact. Of course the average merchant can't pay his immense value. Is like try sell an Ferrari to the average guy in street IRL. About gold not being an problem, if you wanna level up alchemy or enchanting after "exhausted" all know trainners, it will require a lot of money. If you wanna use a lot of potions, too.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
That's as rude as it is wrong.
Outside of very early D&D games which required mages and clerics to sleep to remember spells so they could cast them again, needing to sleep to use magic is bizarre.(...)
Yes, was a bit rude, but my point is that Morrowind is not an "press A for awesome" post oblivion dumbed down game.
And did you played 90s RPG's? The first RPG of my life was Might & Magic VII - For Blood and Honor. You not only need to resto to regain mana, but you also need to spend supplies to rest and high quality mana potion are not easily obtained. Also your inventory is limited and when you rest, you can be attacked and the time passes(certain quests are tied to time)L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »So I got the free version last week. Played for around 30 minutes before it was obvious that I would have to mod the game to keep going. Movement was outrageously slow, had to sleep between each fight to get any Magicka back and my worst fears; that the major/minor system was basically identical to oblivion was a deal breaker.
Found the STEP guide and installed around 120 mods and now the game looks (I didn't bother to mention the obviously dated graphics) and plays very well.
I now look forward to seeing the rest of the game.
Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
I defeated an Dremora lord in lv 1 on Morrowind by using levitation + bound bow, managed to steal an glass armor at lv 7 with some illusion spells, etc. On DLC's, there are a lot of enemies with spell reflection and spell absorption.
In Morrowind, Daggerfall and to some extent Oblivion, defensive magic is far more powerful than offensive magic.
basically what he's saying, you were playing the game the wrong way. play the game the way i play it and you will play correctly. gosh i am just so much smarter and better at this twenty thousand year old game that isn't even any good now.
[SARCASM]
[SARDONIC TONE]
No, my pointi s that you can't judge Morrowind by actual modern game standards.
Morrowind is not an "press A for awesome" game. Wizards are supposed to read and plan ahead. Not try nuke everything with a fireball. You can use the mod that adds magicka regen, but if you focus only on destruction, good lucky against enemy with spell reflection. I saw modern games complaining about Pathfinder Kingmaker, an modern game that follow 90s game design concepts by the worst possible reasons, even an guy that complained because he can't kill swarms with an sword...
Morrowind requires that you read and play smart. Just like other old school RPG's. Hell, took days, almost an weak playing around 2 hours / day to pass Tomb of VARN in Might & Magic VI. Morrowind doesn't have this insane dungeons that i really love. Comparing Morrowind with older games shows how Morrowind is not an hard game.
Unless you compare Morrowind with j""""rpgs"""", that you can't even create your character and is forced to play with an androgynous teenager with an oversized impractical sword and diablo clones, morrowind is not an hard game by any means. Compared to enemies that can insta eradicate you(and eradicated is a worse condition than dead) and has almost the same HP as an dragon that you need to fight in hordes in end of M&M VII, Morrowind is a cakewalk.
man, i've played morrowind alright? don't act like I haven't. the game may be a slog at first, but it really doesn't take that long until you can just no brain through everything, especially if you're a mage build
if there's one thing TES:III fans are good at, it's pretending this damned game is a lot more than it really is
No, is not that simple. I still remember when an mob reflected my God's fire(strongest non crafted magic) into myself and o got OHKilled by my own spell since i was an high elf with atronach birthsign. On my first playtrougthMy destruction skill and stats was so hgih that even with low stamina, i was able to cast this highly expensive spells with a good success rate
And guess what. a lot of enemies was too powerful against my magic. I've started to use more spears and glass armor and using magic only as a defensive tool. Money to potion stopped being an problem and my survivability increased a lot. Defensive magic on Morrowind is far more powerful than in modern TES game.VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »So I got the free version last week. Played for around 30 minutes before it was obvious that I would have to mod the game to keep going. Movement was outrageously slow, had to sleep between each fight to get any Magicka back and my worst fears; that the major/minor system was basically identical to oblivion was a deal breaker.
Found the STEP guide and installed around 120 mods and now the game looks (I didn't bother to mention the obviously dated graphics) and plays very well.
I now look forward to seeing the rest of the game.
Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
I defeated an Dremora lord in lv 1 on Morrowind by using levitation + bound bow, managed to steal an glass armor at lv 7 with some illusion spells, etc. On DLC's, there are a lot of enemies with spell reflection and spell absorption.
In Morrowind, Daggerfall and to some extent Oblivion, defensive magic is far more powerful than offensive magic.
I dunno, seemed to me that the best way to become a great wizard in Morrowind was to craft a 1pt spell in whatever school I wanted to level and then cast it a bunch of times while micromanaging my leveling bonuses. Same for Oblivion, for that matter.
I'm sure Divayth Fyr and the rest of the Telvanni were greatly impressed with my spellcasting abilities.
That is using an broken mechanic.
The best way to level up on Morrowind is to search money and trainers. There are an vampire crypt relative near Balmora that drops vampire dust and dark brotherwood armor can give a lot of money. Spam the same spell 400 times is too boring IMO
Boring, perhaps, but an excellent way to cope with Morrowind's leveling mechanics.
Maybe you liked it, but I neither wanted for money nor enjoyed the math needed at every level up.
To each their own.
What i din't liked about morrowind is that is technically possible to max every single stat except lucky. IMO you should get one +5 attribute, one +3 and one +1 regardless of the skills that you leveled until lv 15 and then just +3/+1 until lv 30. After lv 30, only +1 attribute.
But no, try to get money via questing, via exploring, etc is far more interesting than do the same battle or spam the same skill over and over like other games. One game that i loved the leveling process was Vampire the masquerade bloodlines. You don't get a single point of XP by battling, you need to go on and explore and do quests in order to get XP.
Maybe its just that I stumbled into a ruin north of Aldruhn where some guy had Ebony armor, but I never lacked for money in Morrowind. If anything, I lacked for merchants who could afford to buy what I was selling, even with the ridiculous workarounds for that.
I enjoyed Morrowind, don't get me wrong. But its had some major quirks.
Thats makes sense. You are selling an godlike artifact. Of course the average merchant can't pay his immense value. Is like try sell an Ferrari to the average guy in street IRL. About gold not being an problem, if you wanna level up alchemy or enchanting after "exhausted" all know trainners, it will require a lot of money. If you wanna use a lot of potions, too.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
That's as rude as it is wrong.
Outside of very early D&D games which required mages and clerics to sleep to remember spells so they could cast them again, needing to sleep to use magic is bizarre.(...)
Yes, was a bit rude, but my point is that Morrowind is not an "press A for awesome" post oblivion dumbed down game.
And did you played 90s RPG's? The first RPG of my life was Might & Magic VII - For Blood and Honor. You not only need to resto to regain mana, but you also need to spend supplies to rest and high quality mana potion are not easily obtained. Also your inventory is limited and when you rest, you can be attacked and the time passes(certain quests are tied to time)L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »So I got the free version last week. Played for around 30 minutes before it was obvious that I would have to mod the game to keep going. Movement was outrageously slow, had to sleep between each fight to get any Magicka back and my worst fears; that the major/minor system was basically identical to oblivion was a deal breaker.
Found the STEP guide and installed around 120 mods and now the game looks (I didn't bother to mention the obviously dated graphics) and plays very well.
I now look forward to seeing the rest of the game.
Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
I defeated an Dremora lord in lv 1 on Morrowind by using levitation + bound bow, managed to steal an glass armor at lv 7 with some illusion spells, etc. On DLC's, there are a lot of enemies with spell reflection and spell absorption.
In Morrowind, Daggerfall and to some extent Oblivion, defensive magic is far more powerful than offensive magic.
basically what he's saying, you were playing the game the wrong way. play the game the way i play it and you will play correctly. gosh i am just so much smarter and better at this twenty thousand year old game that isn't even any good now.
[SARCASM]
[SARDONIC TONE]
No, my pointi s that you can't judge Morrowind by actual modern game standards.
Morrowind is not an "press A for awesome" game. Wizards are supposed to read and plan ahead. Not try nuke everything with a fireball. You can use the mod that adds magicka regen, but if you focus only on destruction, good lucky against enemy with spell reflection. I saw modern games complaining about Pathfinder Kingmaker, an modern game that follow 90s game design concepts by the worst possible reasons, even an guy that complained because he can't kill swarms with an sword...
Morrowind requires that you read and play smart. Just like other old school RPG's. Hell, took days, almost an weak playing around 2 hours / day to pass Tomb of VARN in Might & Magic VI. Morrowind doesn't have this insane dungeons that i really love. Comparing Morrowind with older games shows how Morrowind is not an hard game.
Unless you compare Morrowind with j""""rpgs"""", that you can't even create your character and is forced to play with an androgynous teenager with an oversized impractical sword and diablo clones, morrowind is not an hard game by any means. Compared to enemies that can insta eradicate you(and eradicated is a worse condition than dead) and has almost the same HP as an dragon that you need to fight in hordes in end of M&M VII, Morrowind is a cakewalk.
Like I said, I didn't get that feel from Morrowind.
Maybe for you, it wasn't a "press A for awesome" game that required reading and planning.
For me, it was more like "Keep a chart next to my computer so I can keep track of level up bonuses, spam low cost skills until I can use my spells/weapons with reasonable assurance that I won't miss/fail, and go to town on everything jabbing my spear like I'm an ESO templar."
The gameplay wasnt that amazing for me, who'd already played Skyrim and Oblivion. It wasn't even that I had to play smart, even with the ability to stumble over things much higher level. It had a miss chance that was more annoying than it was difficult and some more creativity in using verticality in battle and that was about it.
I dunno, maybe pure wizards had a different experience. But to be honest, the only reading I had to do was looking up where to find the random kwama mine, tomb or 6th house base people kept sending me to.
You are focusing too much on combat. The charm of this old RPG's isn't the combat. Is the world building, character building, questing, exploration, etc. About miss, sure, the game needs an "missing animation", is awful to see your spear passing towards enemy chest and missing at the same time.
About pure mage, i've tried to be an pure mage but switched to warmage, using much more defensive spells on my first playtrought. I really love all freedom that Morrowind gives to you. For example, when i got vampirism, i assaulted an house in middle of the city, used damage attribute in the NPC, used lock spell in the door and got an permanent "blood doll" for me.
About the speed of movimentation, you can move pretty quickly on Morrowind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR3_1A02ORA
Morgha_Kul, the first RPG of my life was M&M VII. English is not my native language, my grammar still awful but when i was a child, i wasn't able to read in English. Took an eternity to learn how to get the "floor tile", inside an "dungeon" that you need in the Emerald Island. The "average modern gamer" will try play the game, see an quest about picking an item in the dragon lair, will enter the lair, try fight the dragon and start complain because "the game is too unbalanced", without realizing that you need to pick the item and run. You should't kill everything that has HP in a RPG.
And people only mention morrowind combat when is to criticize the combat. Most RPG's of his time has awful combat but excel in other areas. VtMB, Arcanum, NWN, etc all have *** combat but are amazing games.
I thought Morrowind's story was amazing.
I also thought Morrowind's gameplay was perfectly fine for its time, perhaps even great, but its very much a product of its time. Its not a modern game.
And so where Morrowind endures, that's on the strength of its story and for players who are willing to overlook or embrace the very unmodern gameplay. I'm in the boat who can overlook the gameplay - I find many of Morrowind's aging gameplay mechanics more annoying than actually interesting - because the story and the worldbuilding is fantastic.
So I suggest that we agree to disagree. I'm delighted you enjoyed Morrowind a lot. I also did, just in very different ways than you did. Some of the things you enjoyed, I thought were annoying. And that's okay. We don't have to have the same viewpoint on TES III.
Have a great day!0 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭VaranisArano The best definition is EXPLOITING an broken mechanic. IMO using low cost spell should give none to almost no experience for a magician after he reached high level. But the solution of "removed" makes no sense. anyone can spam the same melee attack, shoot with an bow/crossbow or the same spell on shadowmere to reach skill level quickly on Skyrim. Removing an feature that a lot of players love is not a good fix Mainly because if you gain XP by fighting or using the skill, will be easy ways to exploit and level up quickly.
The unique way to solve the problem is like VtMB, you can fight all day, kill the entire city, fight police, vampire hunters, etc all day. If you don't complete the quests, you will not get XP but the major problem with that system is that makes less sense. I mean, i completed an quest that involves stealth and use the experience obtained to improve my firearms skill or my thaumaturgy discipline skill Someone becoming an better brawler by using firearms and stealth makes no sense.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano The best definition is EXPLOITING an broken mechanic. IMO using low cost spell should give none to almost no experience for a magician after he reached high level. But the solution of "removed" makes no sense. anyone can spam the same melee attack, shoot with an bow/crossbow or the same spell on shadowmere to reach skill level quickly on Skyrim. Removing an feature that a lot of players love is not a good fix Mainly because if you gain XP by fighting or using the skill, will be easy ways to exploit and level up quickly.
The unique way to solve the problem is like VtMB, you can fight all day, kill the entire city, fight police, vampire hunters, etc all day. If you don't complete the quests, you will not get XP but the major problem with that system is that makes less sense. I mean, i completed an quest that involves stealth and use the experience obtained to improve my firearms skill or my thaumaturgy discipline skill Someone becoming an better brawler by using firearms and stealth makes no sense.
Okay, so this is really coming down to people's opinion that Morrowind shouldn't work the (rather illogical) way it actually does.
I get that. Morrowind (and Oblivion, and Skyrim) have some rather illogical aspects to their leveling system. So does ESO, where you can level up to 50 by running around the same three dolmens for hours.
Sure. Its illogical to level up by spamming the same spell.
Hello! You can do the exact same thing in Oblivion and Skyrim!
Its not cheating or exploiting when you are leveling up in one of the ways the game explicitly allows you to do. I'm using the game's mechanics in an intended way to level up certain skills. Morrowind allows (in my opinion, encourages, thanks to the annoying nature of spell failure at low skill levels and lack of magica regen) efficient leveling via spamming low cost spells over and over again. Oblivion has very similar methods for its magical skills. Spellcrafting can do many things, and one of those things is to create low cost spells for easy leveling. Skyrim didn't have spellcrafting, but you could do the same thing with spells - Muffle was the best for Illusion if you wanted to power level.
I do find it hilarious that you talk about how you found creative solutions to combat and yet some players here are bent out of shape that I found a solution to leveling up magicka skills that uses spellcrafting. That's pretty rich. Both are using game mechanics as intended, and pretending one is good while saying power leveling using the way the game works is exploiting seems rather hypocritical to me.
But hey, I'm glad we both agree that Morrowind's leveling system could have been better!1 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭Yes, leveling system on Morrowind can be better by numerous ways, but Bugthesda instead of improving, decided to remove things. Removed spellcrafting, removed attributes, removed major/minor skills and classes on skyrim, etc, etc, etc.0
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Gretzel✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »So I got the free version last week. Played for around 30 minutes before it was obvious that I would have to mod the game to keep going. Movement was outrageously slow, had to sleep between each fight to get any Magicka back and my worst fears; that the major/minor system was basically identical to oblivion was a deal breaker.
Found the STEP guide and installed around 120 mods and now the game looks (I didn't bother to mention the obviously dated graphics) and plays very well.
I now look forward to seeing the rest of the game.
Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
I defeated an Dremora lord in lv 1 on Morrowind by using levitation + bound bow, managed to steal an glass armor at lv 7 with some illusion spells, etc. On DLC's, there are a lot of enemies with spell reflection and spell absorption.
In Morrowind, Daggerfall and to some extent Oblivion, defensive magic is far more powerful than offensive magic.
I dunno, seemed to me that the best way to become a great wizard in Morrowind was to craft a 1pt spell in whatever school I wanted to level and then cast it a bunch of times while micromanaging my leveling bonuses. Same for Oblivion, for that matter.
I'm sure Divayth Fyr and the rest of the Telvanni were greatly impressed with my spellcasting abilities.
That is using an broken mechanic.
The best way to level up on Morrowind is to search money and trainers. There are an vampire crypt relative near Balmora that drops vampire dust and dark brotherwood armor can give a lot of money. Spam the same spell 400 times is too boring IMO
Boring, perhaps, but an excellent way to cope with Morrowind's leveling mechanics.
Maybe you liked it, but I neither wanted for money nor enjoyed the math needed at every level up.
To each their own.
There's no arguing you basically cheated to level up though.
Just curious. How is that "basically cheating"?
I used the spellcrafting available in the game to make a low cost spell, then cast that enough times to increase my skill in Mysticism, etc. to a desired level.
I mean, sure, in a logical universe no one became a Master Wizard by casting a 1 sec "Conjure Bound Dagger" spell a bunch of times.
But in Morrowind, you can totally do that. Oblivion too. Skyrim finished off that method by removing spellcrafting, but had its own quirks, like becoming a master Smith by crafting tons of iron daggers. Logic is not a big player in how TES characters level up.
Grinding Morrowind spells until you are a decent level where they actually work 90% of the time isnt that much different than grinding at the alikr dolmens in ESO or the way you level up other skills in the TES games. Its entirely within the design of the game.
Because you used a super easy, no effort exploit in a circumvention of the dev's system. You took the easiest, lowest effort route to bypass the game's system. More importantly, you've cheated yourself out of a deeper experience by meta'ing a quirk in the system to reach a statistical advantage obtained through an exploit. You've cheated yourself of the opportunity to learn the game's finer intricacies through what should be a more involved mechanic. Logic isnt the matter at hand in a fantasy setting where I can speak openly with my god and recieve a response or swim in lava indefinitely.Edited by Gretzel on April 6, 2019 4:47AMSorc dps / DK tank / Templar healer - Xbox NA - Black Marsh Legion - cp 2700 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »So I got the free version last week. Played for around 30 minutes before it was obvious that I would have to mod the game to keep going. Movement was outrageously slow, had to sleep between each fight to get any Magicka back and my worst fears; that the major/minor system was basically identical to oblivion was a deal breaker.
Found the STEP guide and installed around 120 mods and now the game looks (I didn't bother to mention the obviously dated graphics) and plays very well.
I now look forward to seeing the rest of the game.
Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
I defeated an Dremora lord in lv 1 on Morrowind by using levitation + bound bow, managed to steal an glass armor at lv 7 with some illusion spells, etc. On DLC's, there are a lot of enemies with spell reflection and spell absorption.
In Morrowind, Daggerfall and to some extent Oblivion, defensive magic is far more powerful than offensive magic.
I dunno, seemed to me that the best way to become a great wizard in Morrowind was to craft a 1pt spell in whatever school I wanted to level and then cast it a bunch of times while micromanaging my leveling bonuses. Same for Oblivion, for that matter.
I'm sure Divayth Fyr and the rest of the Telvanni were greatly impressed with my spellcasting abilities.
That is using an broken mechanic.
The best way to level up on Morrowind is to search money and trainers. There are an vampire crypt relative near Balmora that drops vampire dust and dark brotherwood armor can give a lot of money. Spam the same spell 400 times is too boring IMO
Boring, perhaps, but an excellent way to cope with Morrowind's leveling mechanics.
Maybe you liked it, but I neither wanted for money nor enjoyed the math needed at every level up.
To each their own.
There's no arguing you basically cheated to level up though.
Just curious. How is that "basically cheating"?
I used the spellcrafting available in the game to make a low cost spell, then cast that enough times to increase my skill in Mysticism, etc. to a desired level.
I mean, sure, in a logical universe no one became a Master Wizard by casting a 1 sec "Conjure Bound Dagger" spell a bunch of times.
But in Morrowind, you can totally do that. Oblivion too. Skyrim finished off that method by removing spellcrafting, but had its own quirks, like becoming a master Smith by crafting tons of iron daggers. Logic is not a big player in how TES characters level up.
Grinding Morrowind spells until you are a decent level where they actually work 90% of the time isnt that much different than grinding at the alikr dolmens in ESO or the way you level up other skills in the TES games. Its entirely within the design of the game.
Because you used a super easy, no effort exploit in a circumvention of the dev's system. You took the easiest, lowest effort route to bypass the game's system. More importantly, you've cheated yourself out of a deeper experience by meta'ing a quirk in the system to reach a statistical advantage obtained through an exploit. You've cheated yourself of the opportunity to learn the game's finer intricacies through what should be a more involved mechanic. Logic isnt the matter at hand in a fantasy setting where I can speak openly with my god and recieve a response or swim in lava indefinitely.
you people love to talk about how much choice and freedom these games provide, but when someone chooses to play differently to you you're the first to tell them they played the wrong way
hmmmmmEdited by Browiseth on April 6, 2019 6:40AMskingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
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Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know, I play hockey. Before most hockey games, I work out by lifting weights, doing stretches and practicing the gameplay itself. It's not as difficult as the actual game, but it's how I learn to get better and keep in shape.
Seems to me, casting a lower level spell over and over is much like this.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.1 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano The best definition is EXPLOITING an broken mechanic. IMO using low cost spell should give none to almost no experience for a magician after he reached high level. But the solution of "removed" makes no sense. anyone can spam the same melee attack, shoot with an bow/crossbow or the same spell on shadowmere to reach skill level quickly on Skyrim. Removing an feature that a lot of players love is not a good fix Mainly because if you gain XP by fighting or using the skill, will be easy ways to exploit and level up quickly.
The unique way to solve the problem is like VtMB, you can fight all day, kill the entire city, fight police, vampire hunters, etc all day. If you don't complete the quests, you will not get XP but the major problem with that system is that makes less sense. I mean, i completed an quest that involves stealth and use the experience obtained to improve my firearms skill or my thaumaturgy discipline skill Someone becoming an better brawler by using firearms and stealth makes no sense.
There was a mod that reversed the way experience worked. I agreed with you, lower levels should be EASY to get. It should get harder and harder to improve your skills as they get better. That's more realistic.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.1 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Because you used a super easy, no effort exploit in a circumvention of the dev's system. You took the easiest, lowest effort route to bypass the game's system. More importantly, you've cheated yourself out of a deeper experience by meta'ing a quirk in the system to reach a statistical advantage obtained through an exploit. You've cheated yourself of the opportunity to learn the game's finer intricacies through what should be a more involved mechanic. Logic isnt the matter at hand in a fantasy setting where I can speak openly with my god and recieve a response or swim in lava indefinitely.
It is not an exploit, you don't circumvent or bypass the game's system.
This is how it's supposed to work, this is the game's system as planned.
Understanding how experience gain, skill levelling, attribute multipliers, and spell crafting work, is learning the game's finer intricacies. With its obvious emphasis on multipliers on the level-up screen, the game is actively pushing you to engage with this system.
If you just play without paying attention to the systems, you might (might!) have a better experience overall. (Or you could give up frustrated by not getting anywhere.) But that is the exact opposite of taking the game serious, thinking about its systems, and trying to come up with intelligent solutions.
I mean, I adore Morrowind as a whole, and esp. for its worldbuilding. But the underlying rules and levelling systems are seriously flawed.
I recommend Galsiah's. 1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »So I got the free version last week. Played for around 30 minutes before it was obvious that I would have to mod the game to keep going. Movement was outrageously slow, had to sleep between each fight to get any Magicka back and my worst fears; that the major/minor system was basically identical to oblivion was a deal breaker.
Found the STEP guide and installed around 120 mods and now the game looks (I didn't bother to mention the obviously dated graphics) and plays very well.
I now look forward to seeing the rest of the game.
Sorry, but if you be an Wizard in Morrowind, the game expect intelligence from the player. Don't try nuke everything with fireball, mainly when you don't have much mana at start of the game. Use conjuration to summon help, use restoration, craft mana potions with alchemy, enchant your items, etc. An spear enchanted to paralyze for a short duration can be really effective at low level and is not hard to obtain.
I defeated an Dremora lord in lv 1 on Morrowind by using levitation + bound bow, managed to steal an glass armor at lv 7 with some illusion spells, etc. On DLC's, there are a lot of enemies with spell reflection and spell absorption.
In Morrowind, Daggerfall and to some extent Oblivion, defensive magic is far more powerful than offensive magic.
I dunno, seemed to me that the best way to become a great wizard in Morrowind was to craft a 1pt spell in whatever school I wanted to level and then cast it a bunch of times while micromanaging my leveling bonuses. Same for Oblivion, for that matter.
I'm sure Divayth Fyr and the rest of the Telvanni were greatly impressed with my spellcasting abilities.
That is using an broken mechanic.
The best way to level up on Morrowind is to search money and trainers. There are an vampire crypt relative near Balmora that drops vampire dust and dark brotherwood armor can give a lot of money. Spam the same spell 400 times is too boring IMO
Boring, perhaps, but an excellent way to cope with Morrowind's leveling mechanics.
Maybe you liked it, but I neither wanted for money nor enjoyed the math needed at every level up.
To each their own.
There's no arguing you basically cheated to level up though.
Just curious. How is that "basically cheating"?
I used the spellcrafting available in the game to make a low cost spell, then cast that enough times to increase my skill in Mysticism, etc. to a desired level.
I mean, sure, in a logical universe no one became a Master Wizard by casting a 1 sec "Conjure Bound Dagger" spell a bunch of times.
But in Morrowind, you can totally do that. Oblivion too. Skyrim finished off that method by removing spellcrafting, but had its own quirks, like becoming a master Smith by crafting tons of iron daggers. Logic is not a big player in how TES characters level up.
Grinding Morrowind spells until you are a decent level where they actually work 90% of the time isnt that much different than grinding at the alikr dolmens in ESO or the way you level up other skills in the TES games. Its entirely within the design of the game.
Because you used a super easy, no effort exploit in a circumvention of the dev's system. You took the easiest, lowest effort route to bypass the game's system. More importantly, you've cheated yourself out of a deeper experience by meta'ing a quirk in the system to reach a statistical advantage obtained through an exploit. You've cheated yourself of the opportunity to learn the game's finer intricacies through what should be a more involved mechanic. Logic isnt the matter at hand in a fantasy setting where I can speak openly with my god and recieve a response or swim in lava indefinitely.
Unfortunately for your argument, there isn't a more involved mechanic.
What I did? That's exactly how Morrowind is designed. That is actually Morrowind's system, because Morrowind (and Oblivion, and even Skyrim and ESO) work that way. You wanna level alchemy? You gather a bunch of ingredients and make a bunch of potions.
Out of curiosity, do you get this bent out of shape over power-leveling crafting or at dolmens in ESO? Its the same thing, you know.
If you don't like that Morrowind works that way, congratulations, because we agree that Morrowind's leveling system was a very odd piece of work. Skyrim did a better job of leveling up skills organically as I played than Morrowind did, amd even it had lots of ways to power-level without exploiting.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »You know, I play hockey. Before most hockey games, I work out by lifting weights, doing stretches and practicing the gameplay itself. It's not as difficult as the actual game, but it's how I learn to get better and keep in shape.
Seems to me, casting a lower level spell over and over is much like this.
Honestly, that's pretty much how I used those low cost spells. I leveled up the magicka schools until the miss chance was bearable and I could actually feel comfortable using them in normal gameplay. Trying to use regular spells without reaching certain levels first was just an exercise in frustration and failure.
Oblivion and Skyrim did a much better job of making lower level spellcasting accessible for players who didnt build pure wizards.0 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »You know, I play hockey. Before most hockey games, I work out by lifting weights, doing stretches and practicing the gameplay itself. It's not as difficult as the actual game, but it's how I learn to get better and keep in shape.
Seems to me, casting a lower level spell over and over is much like this.
Honestly, that's pretty much how I used those low cost spells. I leveled up the magicka schools until the miss chance was bearable and I could actually feel comfortable using them in normal gameplay. Trying to use regular spells without reaching certain levels first was just an exercise in frustration and failure.
Oblivion and Skyrim did a much better job of making lower level spellcasting accessible for players who didnt build pure wizards.
That is a problem. I know that elder scrolls is a high magic setting, but honestly, magic should't be accessible to anyone without proper training and instruction.
The correct is go way around and not only has failure chances in each spell, but consequences for failing. For example, you conjured an frost elemental but failed, so the frost elemental will be hostile towards you. If you try conjure an fireball and fail, you will be hit by your own fireball.
You are manipulating the own fabric of reality, summoning dangerous creatures for other dimensions. Of course it should not be an easy task.
And magic on Skyrim? Is awful. First, lacks a lot of spell effects like levitation. Second, anyone can use without risk of failure, as longs they have mana. Third, awful scaling, even expert spells will deal no damage compared to an legendary enchanted bow.Forth, magic is easily exploitable. Impact perk + dual fireball = easy mode. You can "stag lock" enemies to death easily. Fifth, you can enchant your gear to be able to cast spells without any cost
And Oblivion, thanks to the level scaling, at high level, most enemies has ridiculous high HP. Took 46 claymore swings to kill an Xivilai with my 100 STR/100 Blade skill + daedric claymore. Oblivion was far more enjoyable at low level than at high level thanks to how ludicrous infalted enemy HP becomes...0 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wasn't this thread about how people who have played TES III feel about it's representation in ESO ?So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.1 -
NoTimeToWait✭✭✭✭✭Btw, I just remembered one thing.
When I first entered ESO's Seyda Neen, the guy right in front of me stole something and was running from the guards.
And I thought "Ahhh, I am back". That's because I used to steal all the stuff from TES 3 Seyda Neen too. (Actually, I counted once, how much one could steal from Seyda Need with all the secret places and ingredients, and it was around 7k septims I think with basic haggling skill).
So, naturally, I stole some stuff here too. I was quite excited, when I got a bunch of diamonds from couple of lockers, only to be dismayed a bit later by diamond's selling price in ESO. (diamonds, pearls and Cyrodiil brandy are three things I used to sell in TES 3 in my early game. Actually, because of TES 3 I kind of prefer brandy in real life too. When I was a kid I was always interested, what kind of taste that Cyrodiil brandy has if it is so expensive. And later I guess it developed into me being fond of good brandy. But I drink very little alcohol, maybe a bottle of wine/brandy in 2-3 months, so I wouldn't call that a bad influence after all )
Also, I found it hilarious that my first skyshard was right in the same place I got my first magical item in TES-3, in the barrels in the courtyard.
So, in the end it was insta recognition for me. Kind of echo of my past experiences. So I got stuck in TESO's Morrowind for quite a long time(in a good sense)Edited by NoTimeToWait on April 6, 2019 7:36PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »You know, I play hockey. Before most hockey games, I work out by lifting weights, doing stretches and practicing the gameplay itself. It's not as difficult as the actual game, but it's how I learn to get better and keep in shape.
Seems to me, casting a lower level spell over and over is much like this.
Honestly, that's pretty much how I used those low cost spells. I leveled up the magicka schools until the miss chance was bearable and I could actually feel comfortable using them in normal gameplay. Trying to use regular spells without reaching certain levels first was just an exercise in frustration and failure.
Oblivion and Skyrim did a much better job of making lower level spellcasting accessible for players who didnt build pure wizards.
That is a problem. I know that elder scrolls is a high magic setting, but honestly, magic should't be accessible to anyone without proper training and instruction.
The correct is go way around and not only has failure chances in each spell, but consequences for failing. For example, you conjured an frost elemental but failed, so the frost elemental will be hostile towards you. If you try conjure an fireball and fail, you will be hit by your own fireball.
You are manipulating the own fabric of reality, summoning dangerous creatures for other dimensions. Of course it should not be an easy task.
And magic on Skyrim? Is awful. First, lacks a lot of spell effects like levitation. Second, anyone can use without risk of failure, as longs they have mana. Third, awful scaling, even expert spells will deal no damage compared to an legendary enchanted bow.Forth, magic is easily exploitable. Impact perk + dual fireball = easy mode. You can "stag lock" enemies to death easily. Fifth, you can enchant your gear to be able to cast spells without any cost
And Oblivion, thanks to the level scaling, at high level, most enemies has ridiculous high HP. Took 46 claymore swings to kill an Xivilai with my 100 STR/100 Blade skill + daedric claymore. Oblivion was far more enjoyable at low level than at high level thanks to how ludicrous infalted enemy HP becomes...
Mmm, yeah, I have to be honest that we have very different opinions on what constitutes "a problem."
I find spell failure in Morrowind to be effing annoying, so much so that I power leveled up to avoid the worst of it. Its not even a challenge to be overcome with effort, just this annoying hurdle that I had to grind to beat before my spells were useful. In Oblivion and Skyrim, I could actually use any spell I had the magicka to cast at low level, and you call that "a problem" ?
I'm going to have to disagree. In Skyrim and Oblivion, a magicka based playstyle was accessible and useable from low level on without having to grind the skill lines. I don't see that as a problem.
Also, I am laughing at you calling the Destruction magic perk working exactly as intended to stun lock enemies "exploitable". What's next, calling bashing enemies to death with your shield "exploitable" because it stun locks them? How about using "Silence" on enemy mages? Or levitation against enemies with no ranged weapons? Its entirely allowed and intended by the game. Its not an exploit.
You know, the one thing I'm getting out of all this? Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim all had some serious issues with their leveling systems. Also, different things appeal to different players. You apparently enjoyed Morrowind's system a lot more than I did - and I'm fine with that. You can like what you like. I preferred the accessibility of Oblivion and Skyrim. Especially Skyrim, as the automatic level ups eliminated most of the "playing against the majors" leveling tricks of Oblivion, and it seemed to level up more organically with the skills you actually used. If you used a skill - and unlike Morrowind, in Skyrim you started out at a reasonably proficient level - you got better at it with perks.0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭- Size
- Depth
- Freedom of progression (and method)
- True play as you want
- Fog of War - the original (non GOTY) was a true blank map (even the paper one) - if a Ranger didn't mark it, or you didn't find it, it didn't exist.
- Danger around every corner with no zone-leveled B.S.
- Secrets to actually be unlocked and rewards to be had accordingly - no hand holding.
- Fame/Infamy - choices with actual consequence
- Vendors that sold things you actually would want to buy.
- Still beautiful, detailed graphics, even if they are 20 years old.
EDIT: Almost forgot: - Arrows didn't go around corners, hits weren't guaranteed - misses neither (player skill played a factor, plus character skill)
- Weapons could actually break - spells could misfire.
- AI was actually worth a damn - I recall mages using invisibility at low health and trying to hide, etc.
*For those that are modding it (because of slow speed, etc), you're missing part of the point. You're intended to start as a weak, commoner - an a actual slave/criminal. When you level, you can increase stats, based on how you've been using them, and it will get better.
If you mod it early, if you make the mistake of activating Tribunal (WIll end up granting OP armor far too early), or crank up the ease of play in any method, you'll be missing some necessary immersion. It's not set up to hand itself over to you, like that last level 3, skip the tutorial, full CP slotted alt you made in ESO. You're actually intended to work for it, and it rewards you accordingly.
TES III is the game that made this series, however awesome Oblivion and Skyrim was to follow. Had it not come into existence to the level it did, ESO would simply not exist today.
It was a one-of-a-kind evolution in gaming, with a detail and depth of play that has never been matched since, not even by Bethesda themselves. I suspect it likely never will.
Edited by Merlin13KAGL on April 6, 2019 7:49PMJust because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
Billdor✭✭✭✭I've not played TES 3, but from the ESO version it is the best piece of gaming content I have done in ages. Clockwork City is the best in my eyes but we'll leave that for another discussion.0
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danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
*For those that are modding it (because of slow speed, etc), you're missing part of the point. You're intended to start as a weak, commoner - an a actual slave/criminal. When you level, you can increase stats, based on how you've been using them, and it will get better.
If you mod it early, if you make the mistake of activating Tribunal (WIll end up granting OP armor far too early), or crank up the ease of play in any method, you'll be missing some necessary immersion. It's not set up to hand itself over to you, like that last level 3, skip the tutorial, full CP slotted alt you made in ESO. You're actually intended to work for it, and it rewards you accordingly.
The mods I used made it harder, not easier, but also let me move faster. Not sure if that affected NPC's or not though. I know in Skyrim if you modded some kind of gameplay mechanic it often changed it for all NPC as well which was good. So faster arrows for you also meant faster arrows for NPC's.
Anyhow, I would say that ESO Morrowind vs ES3 would be about the same as comparing any of the ES series to ESO. Danger vs no danger, finding cool rewards vs boring scaled rewards that offer little gameplay advantages, etc... ES series games fell more like a world wheras ESO feels like an mmo.
I think ESO does a good or better job with stories, world building, and (some will no doubt laugh at this) avoiding annoying bugs that need to be worked around using the debug console.0 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭VaranisArano you are missing an basic thing about RPG that exist since DOS era RPG's. You are playing an character, and always there are "rules" to establish if your character can or cannot do that or how likely he is to have success in something. This can include casting spells and wearing some equipment.
And in most magical setting, magic require a lot of study to cast even basic spells. In Harry Potter, they spend a lot of time to learn how to cast "levitate'. Most modern RPG's, mainly MMORPG's are very distant from true RPG's. I mean, cooldowns only makes sense if they are in something external to your character like an spirit that needs to reform, stats should measure your character capabilities, not be linked towards gear like in many mmos. Someone saying "i will use this glove because this glove increases my IQ by 25 pts and muscular mass by 13 kg" makes no sense in any scenario. Everyone with the same stats and only gear making then different like happens on WoW and Diablo 3(worst aRPG of my life) makes no sense. This games aren't proper RPG's.
I like play casually ESO and do questing, but ESO isn't an RPG by any definition.
Here is an interesting video defining what constitutes an RPG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
An very action focused action game that did it right was Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Attributes aren't tied to gear and you have to face consequences depending of your build. How you build your character can make most of the game an cakewalk or an living nightmare.
As for stunlock, the problem is that it can be used against almsot every mob. Isn't like an specific strategy against an enemy. Silence only works against destruction mages or conjurers before they've conjured his minions.Edited by L0rdV1ct0r on April 7, 2019 12:55AM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano you are missing an basic thing about RPG that exist since DOS era RPG's. You are playing an character, and always there are "rules" to establish if your character can or cannot do that or how likely he is to have success in something.
And in most magical setting, magic require a lot of study to cast even basic spells. In Harry Potter, they spend a lot of time to learn how to cast "levitate'. Most RPG's, mainly MMORPG's are very distant from true RPG's. I mean, cooldowns only makes sense if they are in something external to your character like an spirit that needs to reform, stats should measure your character capabilities, not be linked towards gear like in many mmos. Someone saying "i will use this clove because this clove increases my IQ by 25 pts and muscular mass by 13 kg" makes no sense in any scenario. Everyone with the same stats and only gear making then different like happens on WoW and Diablo 3(worst aRPG of my life) makes no sense. This games aren't proper RPG's.
I like play casually ESO and do questing, but ESO isn't an RPG by any definition.
Here is an interesting video defining what constitutes an RPG.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
An very action focused action game that did it right was Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Attributes aren't tied to gear and you have to face consequences depending of your build. How you build your character can make most of the game an cakewalk or an living nightmare.
As for stunlock, the problem is that it can be used against almsot every mob. Isn't like an specific strategy against an enemy. Silence only works against destruction mages or conjurers before they've conjured his minions.
Sure. When I want to have the dice rule everything, I play D&D. Morrowind tries to do the same thing. Oblivion and Skyrim moved away from that, and I think it benefited the TES series.1 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano you are missing an basic thing about RPG that exist since DOS era RPG's. You are playing an character, and always there are "rules" to establish if your character can or cannot do that or how likely he is to have success in something.
And in most magical setting, magic require a lot of study to cast even basic spells. In Harry Potter, they spend a lot of time to learn how to cast "levitate'. Most RPG's, mainly MMORPG's are very distant from true RPG's. I mean, cooldowns only makes sense if they are in something external to your character like an spirit that needs to reform, stats should measure your character capabilities, not be linked towards gear like in many mmos. Someone saying "i will use this clove because this clove increases my IQ by 25 pts and muscular mass by 13 kg" makes no sense in any scenario. Everyone with the same stats and only gear making then different like happens on WoW and Diablo 3(worst aRPG of my life) makes no sense. This games aren't proper RPG's.
I like play casually ESO and do questing, but ESO isn't an RPG by any definition.
Here is an interesting video defining what constitutes an RPG.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
An very action focused action game that did it right was Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Attributes aren't tied to gear and you have to face consequences depending of your build. How you build your character can make most of the game an cakewalk or an living nightmare.
As for stunlock, the problem is that it can be used against almsot every mob. Isn't like an specific strategy against an enemy. Silence only works against destruction mages or conjurers before they've conjured his minions.
Sure. When I want to have the dice rule everything, I play D&D. Morrowind tries to do the same thing. Oblivion and Skyrim moved away from that, and I think it benefited the TES series.
How benefitied? You can do much less stuff on Skyrim than on Oblivion and much less stuff on Oblivion compared to Morrowind.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano you are missing an basic thing about RPG that exist since DOS era RPG's. You are playing an character, and always there are "rules" to establish if your character can or cannot do that or how likely he is to have success in something.
And in most magical setting, magic require a lot of study to cast even basic spells. In Harry Potter, they spend a lot of time to learn how to cast "levitate'. Most RPG's, mainly MMORPG's are very distant from true RPG's. I mean, cooldowns only makes sense if they are in something external to your character like an spirit that needs to reform, stats should measure your character capabilities, not be linked towards gear like in many mmos. Someone saying "i will use this clove because this clove increases my IQ by 25 pts and muscular mass by 13 kg" makes no sense in any scenario. Everyone with the same stats and only gear making then different like happens on WoW and Diablo 3(worst aRPG of my life) makes no sense. This games aren't proper RPG's.
I like play casually ESO and do questing, but ESO isn't an RPG by any definition.
Here is an interesting video defining what constitutes an RPG.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
An very action focused action game that did it right was Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Attributes aren't tied to gear and you have to face consequences depending of your build. How you build your character can make most of the game an cakewalk or an living nightmare.
As for stunlock, the problem is that it can be used against almsot every mob. Isn't like an specific strategy against an enemy. Silence only works against destruction mages or conjurers before they've conjured his minions.
Sure. When I want to have the dice rule everything, I play D&D. Morrowind tries to do the same thing. Oblivion and Skyrim moved away from that, and I think it benefited the TES series.
How benefitied? You can do much less stuff on Skyrim than on Oblivion and much less stuff on Oblivion compared to Morrowind.
I thought I already covered this.
I found Morrowind's dice roll mechanics led to annoying failures at low level, in particular with magic where most spells were useless without grinding to a certain level. Weapons weren't as bad, IMO, but not as good as a system as Skyrim and Oblivion.
Oblivion and Skyrim's skills were much more accessible at low level, which I don't see as a problem. At higher levels, all the games had issues - in Skyrin enchanted weapons outperformed spells by a wide margin, Oblivion's enemies scaled badly, and Morrowind made the player OP with enough training.
In my opinion, moving away from the dice rolls was a benefit to the series. I understand that some people really, really like that Morrowind made you start out as a level 1 incompetent, but I found that Oblivion and Skyrim giving you a better starting level of competency makes them more accessible, and that's a good thing for the whole series.
Now if you want to move the goalposts again, asking me about the sheer variety of spell effects possible, then I'd say that Morrowind and Oblivion had better options with stuff like Charm, Levitation, and Chameleon.0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Regarding ideas like "people should only be able to use magic after a long time studying" - this is Tamriel. It works differently than Harry Potter. All people in Tamriel can use some forms of magic, even if they're not mages but butchers, bakers, and booksellers. That is a fundamental characteristic of the setting. You may like it or not, but that is the reality in Tamriel. And every game so far has adhered to that basic rule - in Tamriel, magic is not something only for wizards. In Morrowind, it was a bit harder to cast spells at low levels but all NPCs have magical abilities. It's part of the world.
And regarding the rule set:
Dice rolling is a thing in pen-and-paper systems. Those systems need to have rules that are tailored to humans doing the math and the randomness - rolling dice, staying within a low numbers range, not too frequent and complex calculations. And they are told - battle maps or action figures are often not required; you don't see what's going on but need to hear and imagine it.
The TES series are games on a computer. A computer is bored to death with pen-and-paper rules. All a computer ever does, are frequent and complex calculations. They're also video games - they're built for graphical representation. You have hit boxes and you can see what's going on. There's no need to substitute missing a swing with a roll of the dice - you can tell by what's on the screen (or what's going on in the pseudo-3D environment) whether you missed or not.
Adhering to the conventions of pen-and-paper systems holds video games back. They're two different forms of media; they should each play to their own strengths. A system like Morrowind's, even though I'm familiar with pen-and-paper and realise what's going on, is not a good system for a video game.Edited by Varana on April 7, 2019 6:51PM1 -
NoTimeToWait✭✭✭✭✭The TES series are games on a computer. A computer is bored to death with pen-and-paper rules. All a computer ever does, are frequent and complex calculations. They're also video games - they're built for graphical representation. You have hit boxes and you can see what's going on. There's no need to substitute missing a swing with a roll of the dice - you can tell by what's on the screen (or what's going on in the pseudo-3D environment) whether you missed or not.
Adhering to the conventions of pen-and-paper systems holds video games back. They're two different forms of media; they should each play to their own strengths. A system like Morrowind's, even though I'm familiar with pen-and-paper and realise what's going on, is not a good system for a video game.
Well, it's a long way to completely non-dice systems. You know, if you want to have hit detection by calculating collision of balde with enemy's body, you would need to implement proper enemy behavior. I mean, it's just too easy to hit an enemy that stays still in front of you. If enemies were more realistic, these monsters would jump back and forth, run around, evade. I doubt you could land many hits with such an enemy. But it would also lead to player's frustration. So... seeing how computer games go in direction of lock-target system (which is quite ridiculous), we might not get a decent system (the last game that were developed in the right direction was Exanima and it was quite hardcore. You literally was like a drunk nord with a blade first half an hour in the game, tripping over furniture any your own feet)Edited by NoTimeToWait on April 7, 2019 11:21PM0 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano you are missing an basic thing about RPG that exist since DOS era RPG's. You are playing an character, and always there are "rules" to establish if your character can or cannot do that or how likely he is to have success in something.
And in most magical setting, magic require a lot of study to cast even basic spells. In Harry Potter, they spend a lot of time to learn how to cast "levitate'. Most RPG's, mainly MMORPG's are very distant from true RPG's. I mean, cooldowns only makes sense if they are in something external to your character like an spirit that needs to reform, stats should measure your character capabilities, not be linked towards gear like in many mmos. Someone saying "i will use this clove because this clove increases my IQ by 25 pts and muscular mass by 13 kg" makes no sense in any scenario. Everyone with the same stats and only gear making then different like happens on WoW and Diablo 3(worst aRPG of my life) makes no sense. This games aren't proper RPG's.
I like play casually ESO and do questing, but ESO isn't an RPG by any definition.
Here is an interesting video defining what constitutes an RPG.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
An very action focused action game that did it right was Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Attributes aren't tied to gear and you have to face consequences depending of your build. How you build your character can make most of the game an cakewalk or an living nightmare.
As for stunlock, the problem is that it can be used against almsot every mob. Isn't like an specific strategy against an enemy. Silence only works against destruction mages or conjurers before they've conjured his minions.
Sure. When I want to have the dice rule everything, I play D&D. Morrowind tries to do the same thing. Oblivion and Skyrim moved away from that, and I think it benefited the TES series.
How benefitied? You can do much less stuff on Skyrim than on Oblivion and much less stuff on Oblivion compared to Morrowind.
I thought I already covered this.
I found Morrowind's dice roll mechanics led to annoying failures at low level, in particular with magic where most spells were useless without grinding to a certain level. Weapons weren't as bad, IMO, but not as good as a system as Skyrim and Oblivion.
(...)
Weapons are not bad? I did my calculations, my high elf that started with just spear as minor skill for "melee combat", had less than 10% of chances of succeeding an attack using short/long blades, maces, axes, etc against some initial enemies. If miss is that bad for you, there are mods who remove the miss chance.
There are mods that give mana regen.
But my point is that this systems was necessary to bring risk vs reward and stamina management. On Oblivion i had an spell that dealt in total 850 damage. If i try do the same in Morrowind, i will need to increase a lot of my stats past the cap with potions, enchanting gear, etc to have an small chance of casting this insane deadly spell. And thanks to my high willpower and vampirism, i was able to cast this spell that exhausts my mana poll each time each 28 sec.
Anyone on Oblivion/Skyrim can cast any spell without failure, even if they are terrible at magic. Provided that they have enough mana.(...)And every game so far has adhered to that basic rule - in Tamriel, magic is not something only for wizards. In Morrowind, it was a bit harder to cast spells at low levels but all NPCs have magical abilities. It's part of the world.
And regarding the rule set:
Dice rolling is a thing in pen-and-paper systems. Those systems need to have rules that are tailored to humans doing the math and the randomness - rolling dice, staying within a low numbers range, not too frequent and complex calculations. And they are told - battle maps or action figures are often not required; you don't see what's going on but need to hear and imagine it.
The TES series are games on a computer. A computer is bored to death with pen-and-paper rules. All a computer ever does, are frequent and complex calculations. They're also video games - they're built for graphical representation. You have hit boxes and you can see what's going on. (...).
Everyone can use magic, just like everyone can fight on melee.
But i don't expect an completely untrained peasant to be able to hit the "gap" in a soldier with full steel armor. He is very unlikely to be able to inflict any damage. An master with any weapon will have much more chances. The same applies to magic. In Daggerfall or Morrowind, if you try to cast an ridiculous powerful spell, in a magic school that you are not proficient, with low stats, you will probably miss. What is the problem?
About "bored to death", look to one of the most popular RPG's on STEAM/GOG.Pathfinder Kingmaker is very RPG like and was in the most sold "list" for a long time, despite all launching bugs and all dumb critique like "i can't kill an swarm with an sword" or "i got killed because i tried to kill an elder elemental at lv 3. This game is unbalaced". Morrowind needs an better "missing animation" with the armor deflecting your trust/slash, like the Morrowind has the block animation, but that is what Morrowind needs. Not the removal of risk VS reward system. I enjoy games that give a lot of freedom. Don't get me wrong, questing is good in ESO, but i like much more be able to do epic stuff like raise an undead/elemental army on P:K.
After i finish more quests, i will probably become bored with ESO and maybe be back for few expansions, while on Morrowind, i can always try new things...Edited by L0rdV1ct0r on April 8, 2019 5:43AM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano you are missing an basic thing about RPG that exist since DOS era RPG's. You are playing an character, and always there are "rules" to establish if your character can or cannot do that or how likely he is to have success in something.
And in most magical setting, magic require a lot of study to cast even basic spells. In Harry Potter, they spend a lot of time to learn how to cast "levitate'. Most RPG's, mainly MMORPG's are very distant from true RPG's. I mean, cooldowns only makes sense if they are in something external to your character like an spirit that needs to reform, stats should measure your character capabilities, not be linked towards gear like in many mmos. Someone saying "i will use this clove because this clove increases my IQ by 25 pts and muscular mass by 13 kg" makes no sense in any scenario. Everyone with the same stats and only gear making then different like happens on WoW and Diablo 3(worst aRPG of my life) makes no sense. This games aren't proper RPG's.
I like play casually ESO and do questing, but ESO isn't an RPG by any definition.
Here is an interesting video defining what constitutes an RPG.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
An very action focused action game that did it right was Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Attributes aren't tied to gear and you have to face consequences depending of your build. How you build your character can make most of the game an cakewalk or an living nightmare.
As for stunlock, the problem is that it can be used against almsot every mob. Isn't like an specific strategy against an enemy. Silence only works against destruction mages or conjurers before they've conjured his minions.
Sure. When I want to have the dice rule everything, I play D&D. Morrowind tries to do the same thing. Oblivion and Skyrim moved away from that, and I think it benefited the TES series.
How benefitied? You can do much less stuff on Skyrim than on Oblivion and much less stuff on Oblivion compared to Morrowind.
I thought I already covered this.
I found Morrowind's dice roll mechanics led to annoying failures at low level, in particular with magic where most spells were useless without grinding to a certain level. Weapons weren't as bad, IMO, but not as good as a system as Skyrim and Oblivion.
(...)
Weapons are not bad? I did my calculations, my high elf that started with just spear as minor skill for "melee combat", had less than 10% of chances of succeeding an attack using short/long blades, maces, axes, etc against some initial enemies. If miss is that bad for you, there are mods who remove the miss chance.
There are mods that give mana regen.
But my point is that this systems was necessary to bring risk vs reward and stamina management. On Oblivion i had an spell that dealt in total 850 damage. If i try do the same in Morrowind, i will need to increase a lot of my stats past the cap with potions, enchanting gear, etc to have an small chance of casting this insane deadly spell. And thanks to my high willpower and vampirism, i was able to cast this spell that exhausts my mana poll each time each 28 sec.
Anyone on Oblivion/Skyrim can cast any spell without failure, even if they are terrible at magic. Provided that they have enough mana.(...)And every game so far has adhered to that basic rule - in Tamriel, magic is not something only for wizards. In Morrowind, it was a bit harder to cast spells at low levels but all NPCs have magical abilities. It's part of the world.
And regarding the rule set:
Dice rolling is a thing in pen-and-paper systems. Those systems need to have rules that are tailored to humans doing the math and the randomness - rolling dice, staying within a low numbers range, not too frequent and complex calculations. And they are told - battle maps or action figures are often not required; you don't see what's going on but need to hear and imagine it.
The TES series are games on a computer. A computer is bored to death with pen-and-paper rules. All a computer ever does, are frequent and complex calculations. They're also video games - they're built for graphical representation. You have hit boxes and you can see what's going on. (...).
Everyone can use magic, just like everyone can fight on melee.
But i don't expect an completely untrained peasant to be able to hit the "gap" in a soldier with full steel armor. He is very unlikely to be able to inflict any damage. An master with any weapon will have much more chances. The same applies to magic. In Daggerfall or Morrowind, if you try to cast an ridiculous powerful spell, in a magic school that you are not proficient, with low stats, you will probably miss. What is the problem?
About "bored to death", look to one of the most popular RPG's on STEAM/GOG.Pathfinder Kingmaker is very RPG like and was in the most sold "list" for a long time, despite all launching bugs and all dumb critique like "i can't kill an swarm with an sword" or "i got killed because i tried to kill an elder elemental at lv 3. This game is unbalaced". Morrowind needs an better "missing animation" with the armor deflecting your trust/slash, like the Morrowind has the block animation, but that is what Morrowind needs. Not the removal of risk VS reward system. I enjoy games that give a lot of freedom. Don't get me wrong, questing is good in ESO, but i like much more be able to do epic stuff like raise an undead/elemental army on P:K.
After i finish more quests, i will probably become bored with ESO and maybe be back for few expansions, while on Morrowind, i can always try new things...
You stand there saying Morrowind doesn't need its miss chance system removed, and that Morrowind making low level weapons and skills inaccessible for players is not a problem...and you also tell me to use mods to fix that if it annoys me that much.
Haha. Haha. Oh my.
Yeah, vanilla Morrowind has some issues. Better graphic for their miss chance might help, but that won't substantially change the way Morrowind starts you out as a near incompetent in your skills without buying training or grinding your skills.
If you like that, and apparently you do, then you like that.
If you don't like that, and I think that buying training or grinding is an annoying way to get competent enough for skills to be useful, then Oblivion and Skyrim is a better system because low level spells and wepons are useful. Telling me "Mod the vanilla game until it plays like Oblivion and Skyrim" is a cop out in a discussion of TES III. if anything, its an admission that Oblivion amd Skyrim improved on many of those mechanics from Morrowind.
You also keep saying "I could use any spell I knew in Oblivion and Skyrim if I had the magicka" like that's a problem. I don't think it is. That's actually exactly what I like about Oblivion and Skyrim because it makes magic clear, simple, and accessible while removing the element of dice/random failure. It puts magic fully into the player's hands. You gain magicka? You can cast the more powerful spells, more times. I don't see this as a problem, and you havent succeeded in convincing me otherwise.
I am firmly of the opinion that Oblivion and Skyrim make magic playstyles more accessible at low level than Morrowind, AND that this is a good thing for the TES series of games.
Morrowind is what it is. Fine, even great, for its era.
Oblivion amd Skyrim improved on many of its mechanics. Making magic accessible and abandoning the dice roll success/failures were two major improvements, IMO.
If you disagree, let's agree to disagree because we're just going back amd forth about it to no purpose. Hane a great day!0 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »VaranisArano you are missing an basic thing about RPG that exist since DOS era RPG's. You are playing an character, and always there are "rules" to establish if your character can or cannot do that or how likely he is to have success in something.
And in most magical setting, magic require a lot of study to cast even basic spells. In Harry Potter, they spend a lot of time to learn how to cast "levitate'. Most RPG's, mainly MMORPG's are very distant from true RPG's. I mean, cooldowns only makes sense if they are in something external to your character like an spirit that needs to reform, stats should measure your character capabilities, not be linked towards gear like in many mmos. Someone saying "i will use this clove because this clove increases my IQ by 25 pts and muscular mass by 13 kg" makes no sense in any scenario. Everyone with the same stats and only gear making then different like happens on WoW and Diablo 3(worst aRPG of my life) makes no sense. This games aren't proper RPG's.
I like play casually ESO and do questing, but ESO isn't an RPG by any definition.
Here is an interesting video defining what constitutes an RPG.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LW1Zb0yUw
An very action focused action game that did it right was Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Attributes aren't tied to gear and you have to face consequences depending of your build. How you build your character can make most of the game an cakewalk or an living nightmare.
As for stunlock, the problem is that it can be used against almsot every mob. Isn't like an specific strategy against an enemy. Silence only works against destruction mages or conjurers before they've conjured his minions.
Sure. When I want to have the dice rule everything, I play D&D. Morrowind tries to do the same thing. Oblivion and Skyrim moved away from that, and I think it benefited the TES series.
How benefitied? You can do much less stuff on Skyrim than on Oblivion and much less stuff on Oblivion compared to Morrowind.
I thought I already covered this.
I found Morrowind's dice roll mechanics led to annoying failures at low level, in particular with magic where most spells were useless without grinding to a certain level. Weapons weren't as bad, IMO, but not as good as a system as Skyrim and Oblivion.
(...)
Weapons are not bad? I did my calculations, my high elf that started with just spear as minor skill for "melee combat", had less than 10% of chances of succeeding an attack using short/long blades, maces, axes, etc against some initial enemies. If miss is that bad for you, there are mods who remove the miss chance.
There are mods that give mana regen.
But my point is that this systems was necessary to bring risk vs reward and stamina management. On Oblivion i had an spell that dealt in total 850 damage. If i try do the same in Morrowind, i will need to increase a lot of my stats past the cap with potions, enchanting gear, etc to have an small chance of casting this insane deadly spell. And thanks to my high willpower and vampirism, i was able to cast this spell that exhausts my mana poll each time each 28 sec.
Anyone on Oblivion/Skyrim can cast any spell without failure, even if they are terrible at magic. Provided that they have enough mana.(...)And every game so far has adhered to that basic rule - in Tamriel, magic is not something only for wizards. In Morrowind, it was a bit harder to cast spells at low levels but all NPCs have magical abilities. It's part of the world.
And regarding the rule set:
Dice rolling is a thing in pen-and-paper systems. Those systems need to have rules that are tailored to humans doing the math and the randomness - rolling dice, staying within a low numbers range, not too frequent and complex calculations. And they are told - battle maps or action figures are often not required; you don't see what's going on but need to hear and imagine it.
The TES series are games on a computer. A computer is bored to death with pen-and-paper rules. All a computer ever does, are frequent and complex calculations. They're also video games - they're built for graphical representation. You have hit boxes and you can see what's going on. (...).
Everyone can use magic, just like everyone can fight on melee.
But i don't expect an completely untrained peasant to be able to hit the "gap" in a soldier with full steel armor. He is very unlikely to be able to inflict any damage. An master with any weapon will have much more chances. The same applies to magic. In Daggerfall or Morrowind, if you try to cast an ridiculous powerful spell, in a magic school that you are not proficient, with low stats, you will probably miss. What is the problem?
About "bored to death", look to one of the most popular RPG's on STEAM/GOG.Pathfinder Kingmaker is very RPG like and was in the most sold "list" for a long time, despite all launching bugs and all dumb critique like "i can't kill an swarm with an sword" or "i got killed because i tried to kill an elder elemental at lv 3. This game is unbalaced". Morrowind needs an better "missing animation" with the armor deflecting your trust/slash, like the Morrowind has the block animation, but that is what Morrowind needs. Not the removal of risk VS reward system. I enjoy games that give a lot of freedom. Don't get me wrong, questing is good in ESO, but i like much more be able to do epic stuff like raise an undead/elemental army on P:K.
After i finish more quests, i will probably become bored with ESO and maybe be back for few expansions, while on Morrowind, i can always try new things...
If you disagree, let's agree to disagree because we're just going back amd forth about it to no purpose. Hane a great day!
welcome to arguing with a TES:III fan, where no excuse, regardless of how petty and contrived it is is beneath them
skingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Leveling worked in Morrowind. it kind of broke in Oblivion for two reasons, few skills making it hard to raise the attributes.L0rdV1ct0r wrote: »Yes, leveling system on Morrowind can be better by numerous ways, but Bugthesda instead of improving, decided to remove things. Removed spellcrafting, removed attributes, removed major/minor skills and classes on skyrim, etc, etc, etc.
Also base Morrowind was very easy at high levels, yes the expansions was harder but then you had also leveled up a lot before entering them.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
L0rdV1ct0r✭✭✭VaranisArano My point is that if an guy that is awful at casting has low chances to cast an ultra powerfull spell bothers you(don't know why), you can mod the game and cast the "city slayer spell" with low level destruction.0
