Apologies, ~6.3k (typo initial 6.5)
Set bonuses that give a specific instead of general spell damage aren't listed on CMX output, so War Maiden adds ~540 (Major/Minor on top of the 400 on magic damage skills). Can boost the crit/crit damage/spell damage rating with mundus and monster switch sets (which I'm goofing around with for what I like best before worrying about perfecting my rotation.

This is also just most of the gear golded, not all of it, and using nirn backbar instead of infused (since don't feel like changing it at the moment, being lazy about it).

So this is WITHOUT infused Spell Damage enchant (Backbar)

https://imgur.com/WaByJ9q

Care to try again?

Edit: I haven't updated my CMX in awhile, so if it now includes those conditional element type buffs on the SD listing, please inform.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

All you people raging on mauls seem to be forgetting that the percentage amp from swords is addative with all other percentage amps. You are never going to get the full 6%.

Just a quick example-

12% from mighty, 18% from master at arm's/thaumaturge, 8% from minor berzerk, 5% damage done from minor Slayer, pretty standard

12+18+8+5= 143% damage done, with a sword, it is 149%.

149/143= 1.04. the sword only gives you 4% more damage. Mauls only have to pen ~2k in pve to beat that, actually less then then that because of the way the math works. And it only gets worse the more percentage amps you add. Major Slayer/berzerk etc etc.

Does that look about right @Masel ?

Thank you; I couldn't remember the way to add up the bonus, so I left it alone

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

All you people raging on mauls seem to be forgetting that the percentage amp from swords is addative with all other percentage amps. You are never going to get the full 6%.

Just a quick example-

12% from mighty, 18% from master at arm's/thaumaturge, 8% from minor berzerk, 5% damage done from minor Slayer, pretty standard

12+18+8+5= 143% damage done, with a sword, it is 149%.

149/143= 1.04. the sword only gives you 4% more damage. Mauls only have to pen ~2k in pve to beat that, actually less then then that because of the way the math works. And it only gets worse the more percentage amps you add. Major Slayer/berzerk etc etc.

Does that look about right @Masel ?

Youre forgetting that in a raid mauls have like less than 1k pen...so your logic has been covered in my comment above...smh

The discussion is about general PvE though, not JUST raids, but PvE in general, inclusive of vet DLC I'd imagine

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

All you people raging on mauls seem to be forgetting that the percentage amp from swords is addative with all other percentage amps. You are never going to get the full 6%.

Just a quick example-

12% from mighty, 18% from master at arm's/thaumaturge, 8% from minor berzerk, 5% damage done from minor Slayer, pretty standard

12+18+8+5= 143% damage done, with a sword, it is 149%.

149/143= 1.04. the sword only gives you 4% more damage. Mauls only have to pen ~2k in pve to beat that, actually less then then that because of the way the math works. And it only gets worse the more percentage amps you add. Major Slayer/berzerk etc etc.

Does that look about right @Masel ?

Youre forgetting that in a raid mauls have like less than 1k pen...so your logic has been covered in my comment above...smh

The discussion is about general PvE though, not JUST raids, but PvE in general, inclusive of vet DLC I'd imagine

And im saying that if those other buffs are present that means that Major fracture is present and with major fracture on target swords are automatically better

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

All you people raging on mauls seem to be forgetting that the percentage amp from swords is addative with all other percentage amps. You are never going to get the full 6%.

Just a quick example-

12% from mighty, 18% from master at arm's/thaumaturge, 8% from minor berzerk, 5% damage done from minor Slayer, pretty standard

12+18+8+5= 143% damage done, with a sword, it is 149%.

149/143= 1.04. the sword only gives you 4% more damage. Mauls only have to pen ~2k in pve to beat that, actually less then then that because of the way the math works. And it only gets worse the more percentage amps you add. Major Slayer/berzerk etc etc.

Does that look about right @Masel ?

Youre forgetting that in a raid mauls have like less than 1k pen...so your logic has been covered in my comment above...smh

The discussion is about general PvE though, not JUST raids, but PvE in general, inclusive of vet DLC I'd imagine

And im saying that if those other buffs are present that means that Major fracture is present and with major fracture on target swords are automatically better

And you are wrong.

So with major fracture on a dungeon mob, 18200 armor, you get 12920 armor, or 25.8% of your damage is mitigated, with a skill that does 10,000 damage, that is 2584 damage lost, so you do 7,416 damage. With a maul, you get another 2584 pen, that takes the armor to 10,334, or 20.6% damage mitigated. That makes that 10,000 damage skill do 7,932 damage, an increase of 7%. 7,932/7,146.

Take that same 10,000 damage skill and add 6% to it, 10,600, and then mitigate the damage, 10,600*74.2%, you get 7,865. 7,932>7865.

But that forgets that you have other percentage damage increases to your skill. Using my reasonable 143% base damage increase, you only get 4% more damage from a sword, so that 10,000 becomes only 10,419. So 10,419*74.2%=7,730. 7,932>>7,730.

Not sure what you posted damage numbers for.
Lets take my general trials setup - 2 velidreth, 5 reloquen, 5 Advancing Yokeda.
Mighty CP - 56 points = 12%
MaA CP - 66 points = 22%
Thaum CP - 40 points = 16%
Penetration CP - 47 = 3796 pen
Weapon - Sharp - 2584 pen
Minor Berserk = 8%
Minor Slayer = 5%
Major Slayer = 15% (45% uptime) = average of 6.75%
Major Berserk = 25% (10% uptime) = average of 2.5%
Combined % buff to dots - 12+16+8+5+6.75+2.5=50.25%
Combined % buff to direct damage - 12+22+8+5+6.75+2.5 = 56.25%
With a greatsword Dots deal - 100+50.25+6 = 156.25%
With a greatsword direct damage abilities deal - 100+56.25+6 = 162.25%

Sword buffs dot damage by 156.25/150.25 = 4%
Sword buffs direct damage by 162.25%/156.25 = 3.84%

Major fracture + Sharp weapon + pen CP = 5280 + 2580 +3796 = 11,656 penetration
18,200-11,656 = 6,544 armor
6544 x .2 = 1308 penetration
1308/50,000 = 2.6% damage increase or LESS than greatsword.
Now lets say we put on a precise weapon

Major fracture + pen CP = 5280 +3796 = 9076 penetration
18,200-9076 = 9124 armor
9124 x .2 = 1825 penetration
1825/50,000 = 3.65% damage increase or STILL LESS than greatsword.

So with a typical trials build and JUST Major Fracture applied Maul still loses to Greatsword.
Please explain to me how Maul is better.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

All you people raging on mauls seem to be forgetting that the percentage amp from swords is addative with all other percentage amps. You are never going to get the full 6%.

Just a quick example-

12% from mighty, 18% from master at arm's/thaumaturge 8% from minor berzerk, 5% damage done from minor Slayer, pretty standard

12+18+8+5= 143% damage done, with a sword, it is 149%.

149/143= 1.04. the sword only gives you 4% more damage. Mauls only have to pen ~2k in pve to beat that, actually less then then that because of the way the math works. And it only gets worse the more percentage amps you add. Major Slayer/berzerk etc etc.

Does that look about right @Masel ?

Youre forgetting that in a raid mauls have like less than 1k pen...so your logic has been covered in my comment above...smh

Nice bait.

So if you are going to look at mauls pen in the absolute worse scenario as if it is 100% certain that you will have all those debuffs up 100% of the time, let's look at percentage amps in the absolute worse scenario.

5% minor Slayer, 15% major Slayer, 8% minor berzerk, 25% major berzerk, 15% mighty, 25% master at arm's/thaumaturge, 5% from energized, 10% from amplitude.

5+15+8+25+15+25+5+10= 108, with sword, 114

208/214= 1.02. so with a sword, you only get a 2% damage increase. Logic.

You are the reason why Mauls exist and no one in competitive PvE uses them. If somehow in a fairytale unicorn land you WOULD get all those buffs, it stands to reason that in this perfect non existant scenario you would get all of the debuffs as well. And with Major Fracture/Potl/Alkosh/Infused Torugs and Maxed out CP pen, the Mauls would give 0% penetration, making swords bis....thank you for proving my point:)

Hey thanks for thinking I could influence the game at all, really means a lot you think so highly of me.

Thank you also for completely missing my point. One would never 100% have either of the scenarios. In either one though, you would have to agree a battle axe is actually bis.

Mauls are not used in competitive endgame was my point and that point stands.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

All you people raging on mauls seem to be forgetting that the percentage amp from swords is addative with all other percentage amps. You are never going to get the full 6%.

Just a quick example-

12% from mighty, 18% from master at arm's/thaumaturge, 8% from minor berzerk, 5% damage done from minor Slayer, pretty standard

12+18+8+5= 143% damage done, with a sword, it is 149%.

149/143= 1.04. the sword only gives you 4% more damage. Mauls only have to pen ~2k in pve to beat that, actually less then then that because of the way the math works. And it only gets worse the more percentage amps you add. Major Slayer/berzerk etc etc.

Does that look about right @Masel ?

Youre forgetting that in a raid mauls have like less than 1k pen...so your logic has been covered in my comment above...smh

The discussion is about general PvE though, not JUST raids, but PvE in general, inclusive of vet DLC I'd imagine

And im saying that if those other buffs are present that means that Major fracture is present and with major fracture on target swords are automatically better

And you are wrong.

So with major fracture on a dungeon mob, 18200 armor, you get 12920 armor, or 25.8% of your damage is mitigated, with a skill that does 10,000 damage, that is 2584 damage lost, so you do 7,416 damage. With a maul, you get another 2584 pen, that takes the armor to 10,334, or 20.6% damage mitigated. That makes that 10,000 damage skill do 7,932 damage, an increase of 7%. 7,932/7,146.

Take that same 10,000 damage skill and add 6% to it, 10,600, and then mitigate the damage, 10,600*74.2%, you get 7,865. 7,932>7865.

But that forgets that you have other percentage damage increases to your skill. Using my reasonable 143% base damage increase, you only get 4% more damage from a sword, so that 10,000 becomes only 10,419. So 10,419*74.2%=7,730. 7,932>>7,730.

Not sure what you posted damage numbers for.
Lets take my general trials setup - 2 velidreth, 5 reloquen, 5 Advancing Yokeda.
Mighty CP - 56 points = 12%
MaA CP - 66 points = 22%
Thaum CP - 40 points = 16%
Penetration CP - 47 = 3796 pen
Weapon - Sharp - 2584 pen
Minor Berserk = 8%
Minor Slayer = 5%
Major Slayer = 15% (45% uptime) = average of 6.75%
Major Berserk = 25% (10% uptime) = average of 2.5%
Combined % buff to dots - 12+16+8+5+6.75+2.5=50.25%
Combined % buff to direct damage - 12+22+8+5+6.75+2.5 = 56.25%
With a greatsword Dots deal - 100+50.25+6 = 156.25%
With a greatsword direct damage abilities deal - 100+56.25+6 = 162.25%

Sword buffs dot damage by 156.25/150.25 = 4%
Sword buffs direct damage by 162.25%/156.25 = 3.84%

Major fracture + Sharp weapon + pen CP = 5280 + 2580 +3796 = 11,656 penetration
18,200-11,656 = 6,544 armor
6544 x .2 = 1308 penetration
1308/50,000 = 2.6% damage increase or LESS than greatsword.
Now lets say we put on a precise weapon

Major fracture + pen CP = 5280 +3796 = 9076 penetration
18,200-9076 = 9124 armor
9124 x .2 = 1825 penetration
1825/50,000 = 3.65% damage increase or STILL LESS than greatsword.

So with a typical trials build and JUST Major Fracture applied Maul still loses to Greatsword.
Please explain to me how Maul is better.

Mauls and maces are applied before penetration and sharpened.

Penetration formula is: (Resistance - debuffs) * (1 - percentage) - flat bonuses/(level * 1000)

Just Major Fracture alone is not enough for greatswords to lose to mauls. Using your assumptions, you would still need to have at least an addition ~4194 penetration for mauls to lose to greatswords. This is approximately the equivalent of Alkosh and a 1H infused Crusher enchant. Or Alkosh and Minor Fracture. Or 50 percent Alkosh uptime and a 2H infused Torug's Crusher. Or 60 percent uptime on all debuffs.

However, this is a situation that should be fairly easy to obtain in a trial. Even in 4-man content, this should be something that is relatively easy to obtain.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

.Not sure what you posted damage numbers for.

Because isn't that the point? To get the end damage numbers as high as you can? And to give context to what we are discussing.

Your numbers are way off, you are included your self pen in the calculation. Mauls do not.

Major fracture + Sharp weapon + pen CP = 5280 + 2580 +3796 = 11,656 penetration
18,200-11,656 = 6,544 armor
6544 x .2 = 1308 penetration
1308/50,000 = 2.6% damage increase or LESS than greatsword.

This is wrong. Mauls pen based on just 18,200-5280= 12,920*20%= 2584, which is the added to your other self pen, so you go from 6544, 13% of your damage mitigated, to 3960, or 7.9% of your damage mitigated. In other words you go from doing 87% damage to doing 92% damage, an increase of 4.5% (92%/87%=1.045) which is more then a greatsword with your cp distribution.

.Major fracture + pen CP = 5280 +3796 = 9076 penetration
18,200-9076 = 9124 armor
9124 x .2 = 1825 penetration
1825/50,000 = 3.65% damage increase or STILL LESS than greatsword.

Again, pen cp is a self buff are not part of the mauls calculations. So here you go from pen from cp, having 9124, 18% damage mitigation, to 6540 armor, 13% damage mit, on the target. Or 82% damage done to 87% damage done on the target, an increase of 6% damage done, 87%/82%= 1.06.

.Please explain to me how Maul is better.

Is that enough of an explanation?

No problem, my mistake with the order of pen stacking I didnt realize they changed the order of application. I will concede that with Major fracture alone it isnt enough, but with even a wet noodle's worth of debuffs Mauls loose. Making the assumption that as a player you strive to set yourself up for all types of content it stands to reason that you would rather have the gear that works better in 90% of times. While there will be situations where you only get Major fracture, chances are that there will be a ton of places where basic debuffs will be present making Mauls lose.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

All you people raging on mauls seem to be forgetting that the percentage amp from swords is addative with all other percentage amps. You are never going to get the full 6%.

Just a quick example-

12% from mighty, 18% from master at arm's/thaumaturge, 8% from minor berzerk, 5% damage done from minor Slayer, pretty standard

12+18+8+5= 143% damage done, with a sword, it is 149%.

149/143= 1.04. the sword only gives you 4% more damage. Mauls only have to pen ~2k in pve to beat that, actually less then then that because of the way the math works. And it only gets worse the more percentage amps you add. Major Slayer/berzerk etc etc.

Does that look about right @Masel ?

Youre forgetting that in a raid mauls have like less than 1k pen...so your logic has been covered in my comment above...smh

The discussion is about general PvE though, not JUST raids, but PvE in general, inclusive of vet DLC I'd imagine

And im saying that if those other buffs are present that means that Major fracture is present and with major fracture on target swords are automatically better

And you are wrong.

So with major fracture on a dungeon mob, 18200 armor, you get 12920 armor, or 25.8% of your damage is mitigated, with a skill that does 10,000 damage, that is 2584 damage lost, so you do 7,416 damage. With a maul, you get another 2584 pen, that takes the armor to 10,334, or 20.6% damage mitigated. That makes that 10,000 damage skill do 7,932 damage, an increase of 7%. 7,932/7,146.

Take that same 10,000 damage skill and add 6% to it, 10,600, and then mitigate the damage, 10,600*74.2%, you get 7,865. 7,932>7865.

But that forgets that you have other percentage damage increases to your skill. Using my reasonable 143% base damage increase, you only get 4% more damage from a sword, so that 10,000 becomes only 10,419. So 10,419*74.2%=7,730. 7,932>>7,730.

Not sure what you posted damage numbers for.
Lets take my general trials setup - 2 velidreth, 5 reloquen, 5 Advancing Yokeda.
Mighty CP - 56 points = 12%
MaA CP - 66 points = 22%
Thaum CP - 40 points = 16%
Penetration CP - 47 = 3796 pen
Weapon - Sharp - 2584 pen
Minor Berserk = 8%
Minor Slayer = 5%
Major Slayer = 15% (45% uptime) = average of 6.75%
Major Berserk = 25% (10% uptime) = average of 2.5%
Combined % buff to dots - 12+16+8+5+6.75+2.5=50.25%
Combined % buff to direct damage - 12+22+8+5+6.75+2.5 = 56.25%
With a greatsword Dots deal - 100+50.25+6 = 156.25%
With a greatsword direct damage abilities deal - 100+56.25+6 = 162.25%

Sword buffs dot damage by 156.25/150.25 = 4%
Sword buffs direct damage by 162.25%/156.25 = 3.84%

Major fracture + Sharp weapon + pen CP = 5280 + 2580 +3796 = 11,656 penetration
18,200-11,656 = 6,544 armor
6544 x .2 = 1308 penetration
1308/50,000 = 2.6% damage increase or LESS than greatsword.
Now lets say we put on a precise weapon

Major fracture + pen CP = 5280 +3796 = 9076 penetration
18,200-9076 = 9124 armor
9124 x .2 = 1825 penetration
1825/50,000 = 3.65% damage increase or STILL LESS than greatsword.

So with a typical trials build and JUST Major Fracture applied Maul still loses to Greatsword.
Please explain to me how Maul is better.

Mauls and maces are applied before penetration and sharpened.

Penetration formula is: (Resistance - debuffs) * (1 - percentage) - flat bonuses/(level * 1000)

Just Major Fracture alone is not enough for greatswords to lose to mauls. Using your assumptions, you would still need to have at least an addition ~4194 penetration for mauls to lose to greatswords. This is approximately the equivalent of Alkosh and a 1H infused Crusher enchant. Or Alkosh and Minor Fracture. Or 50 percent Alkosh uptime and a 2H infused Torug's Crusher. Or 60 percent uptime on all debuffs.

However, this is a situation that should be fairly easy to obtain in a trial. Even in 4-man content, this should be something that is relatively easy to obtain.

Noted...I didnt realize they changed the order of application. That's my fault

The calculation has always been like that. Check the penetration equation from 2015-

https://tamrielfoundry.com/articles/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/

. While there will be situations where you only get Major fracture, chances are that there will be a ton of places where basic debuffs will be present making Mauls lose.

Thing is, I almost exclusively play with random, using the group finder and the amount of tanks that just use major fracture is the majority. A lot of the times it is ransack too.

Then I suppose for your personal playstyle it works...however if you ever want to participate in any competent group runs I hope you replace the maul...

I do have a battle axes for that particular situation.

You find the bleed to be worth it? What %dps does it do?

Since maces offer penetration, look to other parts of a build to get an idea for the balance point between sword and Mace.

You could run:
1 pc veledrith or 1 pc kragh
Nirn or Sharpened
Shadow or Warrior or Lover mundus

In every trade off the penetration buff adds much more damage than the alternative. Look up the weapon damage buffs and you will notice that the penetration trade-off ratio is very close for each. The Shadow mundus also seems close to warrior, although somewhat stronger on my build.

With all buffs active on my build I get roughly 2% damage increase from 1 pc. Velidreth. Alternatively there is 1487 penetration in one piece of Kraghs.

When figuring out what is good to slot, I'd balance my personal build around 700 penetration per 1% damage buff. If a great sword adds 4% damage, I'd rather see closer to 2800 penetration from a maul to consider it worth slotting.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Always have to have someone chime in with "it's not competitive for high end gameplay!", something the OP usually never asked about and only a small number of players even care about.

Don't use this build because it's not optimal for 5 percent of the games content is what it always boils down to. Content most will never bother with in the first place.

The OP's question was answered a while back. We were just having a debate, anything wrong with that?

Nothing in your eyes, because you genuinely don't get that not everyone does trials. Not everyone is competitive. There is no malice in that observation, just reality. You've been in amazingly "competent" groups so long you've forgotten it isn't the only way to play.

Others would hold that against you, but I'd say that makes them no better than they say you are.

Fair point

Izaki wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Missing rending strike sort of kills 2 hander for pve. 2 hander has been setup as more of an aoe spec.

I see. What about a DW/2H setup? Would that work possibly?

You'd lose your Maelstrom bow and your Endless Hail which is like over 10k DPS. And you lose Poison Injection. And you'd lose Ballista. So no

I do DW 2h all the time for the simple reason bow on every stam dps and its mother is idiotic. and I will do so until they nerf endless hail like they should ASAP.