At what point you think the game would become P2W?

Runkorko · April 2019

Hotel6 wrote: »

p2w isnt progressive items it's items that u buy that has advantage on other players. I do hate the fact that an MMO locks a new class bh a paywall.

And how new classes are p2w ? Do they are better than old one ? No, they are not.

Mayrael · April 2019

Shortest answer. Pay 2 win is when the only source of certain item or functionality that makes you stronger is in cash shop.

E.g. Adding gold craft upgrades is not pay to win because you can get them in game.

Skyshards are not pay to win, because you can collect them in game.

Crafting time scrolls are not pay to win because you can research all traits without them.

Craft bag is not pay to win because nobody limits where and how much materials you store.

Race change token though can be considered as pay 2 win because you can't pay for it with in game currency while it can affect your strength but on other hand nobody limits you to create new character with desired race.

menathradiel · April 2019

Ollowaiin2 wrote: »

They paid real life money to get an advantage in the game. It is obtainable ingame, but would take a loong time to get a few Million gold. This system is unfair In my opinion, because it gives then a major advantage.
It would be easier, if you write why it has nothing to do with p2w.

Pay to win is something that cannot be achieved in-game, not something that can be done but takes longer. I can make a few million gold in probably 4/6 weeks if I wanted to grind a bit more or sell more through the guild system.

tinythinker · April 2019

Broadly speaking people will tend to say it is when you can increase your combat power only by buying something for real world money (the equivalent might technically be available in the game but is impossible to get).

Beyond that, it breaks down to specific points of view. I am going to share my own point of view. I share it to give one perspective among many that people can consider for themselves. I think my definition is fair and reasonable, but I'm sure there are those who will disagree.

For me, it's being able to have an advantage in completing content and earning in-game achievements (and associated rewards) by using real world money.

Notice that my definition includes the broad one many people think of, but isn't limited to combat advantages as combat isn't the only meaningful part of MMOs.

Getting easily crafted potions or food to me, for example would not be P2W. And in MMOs it is traditional to release new classes with new content, so unless it was exceedingly unbalanced to PvE or PvP that would not be P2W. Being able to buy skyshards on alts after you've already completed collecting them on another character would not be P2W. The 1st and 3rd are justifiable as "convenience", the 2nd is purchasable but not P2W extra content.

On the other hand, by my definition, buying Vampire and Werewolf as well as buying crafting Motifs would be P2W because you can earn achievement points outside of game by spending real world money. You never have to spend a moment in game to earn those achievements. Now, they are not high level examples of P2W. They are not outrage and pitchfork level P2W. They are simply the lowest level, least offense, most harmless type of P2W that ZOS could possibly come up with. In fact, they are so trivial they don't really bother me. (Unless I am still missing that one motif page that just won't drop and costs a fortune a guild traders!)

So from my perspective, it's a matter of player vigilance. Even when I don't think something is P2W it's good that ZOS sees players are still really wary of that possibility. It helps push back against the pressure of profit motive to put questionable things in the Crown Store.

Kombinator · April 2019

Got a bunch of answers, and we can see just how diverse the opinion on this.

ESO+, and anything related to is exclusion. It is a suscribtion with limitations both to it's power, and money. It's on the same level as WoW expansion, or SWTOR suscribtion. The team needs money to maintain stuff.

To me here is a list of questions. If first, and one other of them is yes, then it's p2w.

Gives combat advantage.
Can't get in reasonable time. To me it's 2 weeks constant playing.
Can't done without paying.
Needs great skill to get it otherwise.

Skyshards:
1. Gives combat advantage? Yes.
2. Can't you get them in reasonable time? No. You can get it in a week.
3. Can't be done without paying? No. You can gather them without paying.
4. Is it skill related? No. Anyone can gather all of it outside Cyrodiil. And that is more than enough. Also technically anyone can gather in Cyrodiil too even without being skilled.

Gold:
1. Yes. I'm pretty sure, that you can buy better, than basic stuff from guild vendors.
2. Gold has no real upper limit. I didn't checked just how much combat related stuff you can buy from gold so i can't truly answer this. However i can play all base game content without ever needing to use gold. Minus a bit for the basic foods, and fast travel, but even questing covers that.
3. You can get gold without paying real money.
4. You don't need great skill to get gold.

EXP boost is on the edge, because of the 2. part. Reaching full CP takes a very long time, and great XP boost can greatly reduce it.

menathradiel wrote: »

Ollowaiin2 wrote: »

They paid real life money to get an advantage in the game. It is obtainable ingame, but would take a loong time to get a few Million gold. This system is unfair In my opinion, because it gives then a major advantage.
It would be easier, if you write why it has nothing to do with p2w.

Pay to win is something that cannot be achieved in-game, not something that can be done but takes longer. I can make a few million gold in probably 4/6 weeks if I wanted to grind a bit more or sell more through the guild system.

There is a point when it becomes unreasonable. When it's up to paying 2000$ or playing 40 000 hours, then paying becomes way too superior to grinding.

Emmagoldman · April 2019

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

its already p2W when sets like zaan ,earthengore are behind paywall which are OP and that is the 10th point u mentioned

You still need to do the content. The amount of players that complete dlcs are not in the majority.

In theory, all the sets go on sale at the golden. Of the two, only earthgore has been at golden.

Ollowaiin2 wrote: »

We're already on the edge to p2w, because many people buy gold for crowns. That gold gives them the ability to buy end game gear/many achievements. It got worth with the Option to send crown störe presents.

Selling clears has been around for a LONG time. There is now a lot more content and being far after release, its harder to have a group working to clear it. For example, vdsa. Once you have what you want, unless your going with a close friend, your not going to step back in

Kombinator · April 2019

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

ability to buy new class which is OP when compared to other classes
and
10

Anything related to ESO+ is excluded for me. It is a limited bonus for limited money.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · April 2019

obviously when you can buy gear that outperforms the current in game earnable or give special buffs that cannot be acquired in game or even if can be in game acquired the fact that you can just throw 5$ to get it makes it pay 2 win...im not happy with the BS regarding skyshards but on a deeper though...its not p2w its just 2 days of no life snatch and grab or pay a bag of crowns and be done with it...for me with 1 main sure cuz completionist I did it...for people with 14+ characters to do that tedious grind...dont think many are happy about it.

xxthir13enxx · April 2019

The ability to start Day1 fully leveled and Super rich....

Oh...wait...I did that with my PS4 transfer....
Never mind, carry on...

O_LYKOS · April 2019

1. Ability to buy XP booster scrolls. After all leveling to max. CP takes quite a time, and this is greatly reduces it.
7. Ability to buy Gold.
8. Ability to buy Non-epic gear.
9. Ability to buy epic gear.
10. Ability to buy end-game gear.

You can pretty much already do all the above.

Jhalin · April 2019

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

obviously when you can buy gear that outperforms the current in game earnable or give special buffs that cannot be acquired in game or even if can be in game acquired the fact that you can just throw 5$ to get it makes it pay 2 win...im not happy with the BS regarding skyshards but on a deeper though...its not p2w its just 2 days of no life snatch and grab or pay a bag of crowns and be done with it...for me with 1 main sure cuz completionist I did it...for people with 14+ characters to do that tedious grind...dont think many are happy about it.

Skyshard skillpoints awarded for throwing money at ZOS instead of playing the game is just as much a tread into P2W territory as Warden being the only source of Minor Toughness after they stripped it off Warhorn.

The former being the real test to see if we accept it, because this is far more obvious to people than “just another nerf” that made Warden a sole source of a buff. And from the looks of it, far too many people are ready to roll over and thank ZOS for parting them from their money to avoid gameplay for them to see this as anything but a green light for more drastic P2W / “pay to avoid this inconvenience we designed” tactics

Ri_Khan · April 2019

Paying extra to bypass having to spend the time required to achieve end-game goals instead of actually getting there by just playing the game is P2W.

AndrewQ84 · April 2019

Kombinator wrote: »

1. Ability to buy XP booster scrolls. After all leveling to max. CP takes quite a time, and this is greatly reduces it.
2. Ability to buy skillpoints.
3. Ability to buy level token. Instant lvl50.
4. Ability to buy XP token. Gives XP equal to random dungeon.
5. Ability to buy story token. All quest, and story instantly completed in region, and you get their rewards. Can't use for main quest, and multi-region quests.
6. Ability to buy Quest complete token. Target accepted quest instantly gets finished, and rewards gets provided.
7. Ability to buy Gold.
8. Ability to buy Non-epic gear.
9. Ability to buy epic gear.
10. Ability to buy end-game gear.
11. Ability to buy attributes.

Not a single one of these count towards what you think is pay to win. Not a single one. All of thse things are for completion and for lazy people. None of it will give an advantage to someone who does it normally or who has completed/obtained it already. The closest to what you think is pay to win is the gear, but even that does not count. Infuriating? Maybe. It would be unfair for people to have endgame gear or epic gear without working for it, but there is no disadvantage there as said gear can be obtained in game under normal circumstances. For it to really count, the gear that is sold in the crown store has to have two criteria. The gear has to be BETTER than ANYTHING ELSE in game and COMPLETELY UNOBTAINABLE by any other means than paying for it with real money. That would give the player an unfair advantage to those who dont buy said gear and that would be pay to win.

Jeremy · April 2019

And the never ending debate over what "P2W" means...

I'll never understand why so many people waste their time with this pointless semantic debate over the name. I quit bothering with that awhile ago. Call it what ever you want. But when players can use their financial resources to gain significant advantages over other players it becomes a problem. Where that line is is something each person has to decide for themselves.

Facefister · April 2019

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

1. Ability to buy XP booster scrolls. After all leveling to max. CP takes quite a time, and this is greatly reduces it.
2. Ability to buy skillpoints.
3. Ability to buy level token. Instant lvl50.
4. Ability to buy XP token. Gives XP equal to random dungeon.
5. Ability to buy story token. All quest, and story instantly completed in region, and you get their rewards. Can't use for main quest, and multi-region quests.
6. Ability to buy Quest complete token. Target accepted quest instantly gets finished, and rewards gets provided.
7. Ability to buy Gold.
8. Ability to buy Non-epic gear.
9. Ability to buy epic gear.
10. Ability to buy end-game gear.
11. Ability to buy attributes.

Not a single one of these count towards what you think is pay to win. Not a single one. All of thse things are for completion and for lazy people. None of it will give an advantage to someone who does it normally or who has completed/obtained it already. The closest to what you think is pay to win is the gear, but even that does not count. Infuriating? Maybe. It would be unfair for people to have endgame gear or epic gear without working for it, but there is no disadvantage there as said gear can be obtained in game under normal circumstances. For it to really count, the gear that is sold in the crown store has to have two criteria. The gear has to be BETTER than ANYTHING ELSE in game and COMPLETELY UNOBTAINABLE by any other means than paying for it with real money. That would give the player an unfair advantage to those who dont buy said gear and that would be pay to win.

But filling the crown-store with stuff for "lazy-people" will make the devs also lazy on creating content. Why put time and effort to create interesting quests and areas when you can milk the "lazy people". Not P2W but it's harmful for everyone else.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · April 2019

Rake wrote: »

when they start to sell skyshards in crown store

But how does that give anybody an advantage over another player? Having extra skill points doesn't matter when A. the player has to unlock that skill first and B. they have to have unlocked the achievement on another character first. If anything its Pay to make leveling alts more bearable. Pure convenience. P2W is when they start selling end game gear of anything that provides and actual advantage over others.

srfrogg23 · April 2019

It would become P2W when they sold gear, abilities, etc. On the cash shop that are more powerful than anything you can earn by playing. Anything else just Pay to Not Play (pay for convenience, a "lazy tax").

driosketch · April 2019

There are plenty of players who have max level characters with all the skill points they need for their build. Leveling assists or unlocking skyshards will only catch you up, not give you an advantage. It is a money grab aimed at those with limited time or who are lazy, but not pay to win.

Pay to Win:
Actual gear, not cosmetic, in the store that is above the power curve.
Skill points above what you can earn in game, though just barely as skill points are plentiful already.
Potions that ignore cooldowns.
Buying directly BoP gear without RNG.

Skill lines, classes, and even a race that require additional purchace beyound the base game can arguably be called pay to win, if they preform above the power curve.

Kombinator · April 2019

AndrewQ84 wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

1. Ability to buy XP booster scrolls. After all leveling to max. CP takes quite a time, and this is greatly reduces it.
2. Ability to buy skillpoints.
3. Ability to buy level token. Instant lvl50.
4. Ability to buy XP token. Gives XP equal to random dungeon.
5. Ability to buy story token. All quest, and story instantly completed in region, and you get their rewards. Can't use for main quest, and multi-region quests.
6. Ability to buy Quest complete token. Target accepted quest instantly gets finished, and rewards gets provided.
7. Ability to buy Gold.
8. Ability to buy Non-epic gear.
9. Ability to buy epic gear.
10. Ability to buy end-game gear.
11. Ability to buy attributes.

Not a single one of these count towards what you think is pay to win. Not a single one. All of thse things are for completion and for lazy people. None of it will give an advantage to someone who does it normally or who has completed/obtained it already. The closest to what you think is pay to win is the gear, but even that does not count. Infuriating? Maybe. It would be unfair for people to have endgame gear or epic gear without working for it, but there is no disadvantage there as said gear can be obtained in game under normal circumstances. For it to really count, the gear that is sold in the crown store has to have two criteria. The gear has to be BETTER than ANYTHING ELSE in game and COMPLETELY UNOBTAINABLE by any other means than paying for it with real money. That would give the player an unfair advantage to those who dont buy said gear and that would be pay to win.

11. Ability to buy attributes. I mean the ability to buy attributes BEYOND what can be achieved normally. If that's not pay to win, then i don't know what it is.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · April 2019

Never.

supaskrub · April 2019

From the general consensus of what I have read if Necromancer gets released as it is then that could be construed as a big step towards p2w, maybe we get more concrete facts from pts when Elsweyr is up for testing.

Starlock · April 2019

"Pay to win" is a sliding scale. A game that has microtransactions of any sort that modify gameplay is already on the scale somewhere. The question is where a game is on the scale once it has introduced microtransactions. There is never a clear cut answer to that, as folks have different standards of what it means to "win" and what sorts of things impact gameplay.

Of the games I've played, ESO is further up the "pay to win" scale than others. That said, I pretty much refuse to play so-called "free to play" games that are notorious for having heavy "pay to win" microtransactions. The only reason I stick with Elder Scrolls Online is because they don't let that become the focus and consistently deliver quality narrative/design content. The moment that ends is the moment I'm done with this game. That they are allegedly introducing more pay to win elements with these skyshard packs is disappointing, but not surprising.

Imperial_Voice · April 2019

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Soo far everything is a convenience except for necromancer class.

And Warden.

And Imperial Race.

And Im a bit iffy on DLC because of the games progression system.

ATreeGnome · April 2019

Strictly speaking, I would only consider it P2W if the thing being sold offers better combat stats/utility than what can be earned in game or if it allows you to bypass a skill based challenge in the game that would normally be required to obtain it. I don't consider things that just reduce time spent grinding to be P2W. I also don't consider it to be P2W if a DLC offers better gear - new content is vital for the health of an MMO, the developers need to be paid for making new content, and players need to be rewarded for completing new challenges. Better gear from a DLC is standard and necessary for a game like this, it just can't be too much better or too easy to get.

I will say that I'm on the fence when it comes to new classes. On one hand they take resources to develop and that needs to get paid for somehow. On the other hand, if a purchasable class is BiS in PvE or PvP then anyone who bought it is at an advantage solely for having spent money.

Can you imagine if you had to spend crowns to unlock Nightblades? For PvE that would definitely count as P2W right now. So I see selling classes as being 1 bad balance change away from making the game P2W.

I would really rather see all classes added to the base game and pay a little more for my ESO+ or cosmetic items from the crown store or something else to make up the difference.

dbgager · April 2019

Actually all of those things mostly are borderline and very P2W because they are things you do not possess. So a new player could come in the game and have a max character without doing anything. The selling you things that you already have such as skyshards Is not P2W because it is something you have already earned and is absolutely no value to a new person. When you wan to define P2W just think can a brand new person to the game use this to max out a character from scratch without having to actually play the game. That is what defines P2W. Also if it offers an advantage that can not be gained without buying the item. For example just selling skyshards is P2W. Selling skyshards you have already gained is not.

WeylandLabs · April 2019

I'm super confused on the OP, what are you winning this isn't an Esport ?

Cpt_Teemo · April 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

E.g. Adding gold craft upgrades is not pay to win because you can get them in game.

BDO disagrees that this is not P2w, any type of cash conversion to in game currency is considered p2w in every mmo

Emma_Overload · April 2019

They can sell CP810 toons with maxed out skill lines for all I care, but the minute they start selling overpowered weapons and armor that you can ONLY get from the Crown Store, I'm out.

Kuramas9tails · April 2019

I only call it a Pay to Win if it gives an advantage over other players in which they can not achieve any other way than paying for it. So if ZOS added a new Skill tree that you can only access through buying, yes, that is pay to win. If crown crates added bonus sets that are better than in game sets, pay to win.

But with that last statement, are DLC sets that bind pay to win?

Hmmmm.

dbgager · April 2019

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

I only call it a Pay to Win if it gives an advantage over other players in which they can not achieve any other way than paying for it. So if ZOS added a new Skill tree that you can only access through buying, yes, that is pay to win. If crown crates added bonus sets that are better than in game sets, pay to win.

But with that last statement, are DLC sets that bind pay to win? Hmmmm.

But under your definition a brand new person could come into the game have a completelly maxed character with all the best armor and weapons and all skills without playing a minute of the actual game. You would not define that as a win. They just bypassed 100s of hours of gameplay.