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Why the cities are so small?
Maxx7410
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Even summerset the cities are small and really empty, also there is no diference in cities of diferent races nothing new or diferent is all the same.
The rpg element is poor.
Alinor is small AND half the city is no accesible! I hope Elsweyr change it but i dont have to much fait for it.
The rpg element is poor.
Alinor is small AND half the city is no accesible! I hope Elsweyr change it but i dont have to much fait for it.
10
Best Answer
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ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In this game, cities with hundreds of buildings, NPCs everywhere, tons of prop assets, and players running around = 5fps with constant crashing.CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!10
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Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The rpg element is poor.
It's not an rpg.
It's an MMOrpg.
Being able to interact with other players comes with both a networking and client side processing cost. Every player you see could have any of a wide variety of clothing items equipped. In seven different slots. With three dye channels each. Plus depending on what they're wearing, you might also be looking at their face and / or body customisation.
Bigger cities would exponentially increase the number of other players you could expect to encounter in that same area and the networking and processing cost could easily blow out.
Sure I'd love ESO bigger. But computing reality is what it is. Give it time. Technology will invariably improve and a decade or two from now you should expect to see bigger cities in online games.20 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's not the size but the content that matters... And before anyone mentions Novigrad: no, Novigrad was boring. Big and sprawling, but still extremely boring.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BretonMage wrote: »It's not the size but the content that matters... And before anyone mentions Novigrad: no, Novigrad was boring. Big and sprawling, but still extremely boring.
Novigrad was full of content. It was one of the best designed RPG cities ever. It's not just TW3 anymore that does proper big cities though, the new AC games have perfected it too. It's always objectively better to have a more immersive world in an RPG.
Scale is so important in this genre. You get a sense that people could actually live in the world of TW3 or AC:Origins/Odyssey. There are cities with thousands of NPCs, theatres, brothels, restaurants, barbers, etc. There is political intrigue and a criminal underworld. There is just so much to do, and it's all very believable. Imagine playing the Thieves Guild story in a city the size of Novigrad or Athens.Edited by MLGProPlayer on March 30, 2019 5:14AM5 -
Sathukai✭✭✭That really bugged me in Summerset, that the cities were small and cramped. I for one would very much like larger open cities like Daggerfall.1 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That really bugged me in Summerset, that the cities were small and cramped. I for one would very much like larger open cities like Daggerfall.
Perhaps you can convince the Altmer urban planners to take a trip to High Rock and learn from Breton urban planners. Or better yet, perhaps those Altmer urban planners could attend architecture classes in Hammerfell.
I doubt you will be successful. Altmer are not exactly open to ideas from the 'lesser races'.5 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »BretonMage wrote: »It's not the size but the content that matters... And before anyone mentions Novigrad: no, Novigrad was boring. Big and sprawling, but still extremely boring.
Novigrad was full of content. It was one of the best designed RPG cities ever. It's not just TW3 anymore that does proper big cities though, the new AC games have perfected it too. It's always objectively better to have a more immersive world in an RPG.
I found Alinor to be far more interesting and personal than Novigrad. Once you got over the size of Novigrad and finished the quests, it felt impersonal and soulless. Most of the NPCs weren't even named. In ESO our cities are filled with unique named NPCs with their own stories and quirks, and many even have unique dialogue. I love that.5 -
Sathukai✭✭✭That really bugged me in Summerset, that the cities were small and cramped. I for one would very much like larger open cities like Daggerfall.
Perhaps you can convince the Altmer urban planners to take a trip to High Rock and learn from Breton urban planners. Or better yet, perhaps those Altmer urban planners could attend architecture classes in Hammerfell.
I doubt you will be successful. Altmer are not exactly open to ideas from the 'lesser races'.
it makes sense what they're doing, yes. They're making sure they're getting enough use of the space they have while maintaining maneuverability in their cities, but I still prefer larger open cities though0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BretonMage wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »BretonMage wrote: »It's not the size but the content that matters... And before anyone mentions Novigrad: no, Novigrad was boring. Big and sprawling, but still extremely boring.
Novigrad was full of content. It was one of the best designed RPG cities ever. It's not just TW3 anymore that does proper big cities though, the new AC games have perfected it too. It's always objectively better to have a more immersive world in an RPG.
I found Alinor to be far more interesting and personal than Novigrad. Once you got over the size of Novigrad and finished the quests, it felt impersonal and soulless. Most of the NPCs weren't even named. In ESO our cities are filled with unique named NPCs with their own stories and quirks, and many even have unique dialogue. I love that.
Unnamed NPCs add to the immersion. Do you know everyone you see on the street in the city you live in? You only know who you need to know.
And speaking of "dead" cities, that's exactly what TES cities feel like to me. After a few quests, you're done there and move on, while the 10-15 NPCs that live in the city, remain there, on an endless loop of doing the same exact thing all day and night.
The stories you can tell in a large city are so much richer as there are so many different elements of criminal and political intrigue you can draw in.Edited by MLGProPlayer on March 30, 2019 5:45AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
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Do you see the irony?
The size of the Cities has not seemed small to me. They seem appropriately sized. Having large cities for the sake of large cities makes no sense and would mean for longer travel times which would be pointless.
Some falsely blame the engine but that is clearly not the case since we have large continuous zones. I think some just like to complain about the engine regardless even when it is without merit.
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
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Do you see the irony?
The size of the Cities has not seemed small to me. They seem appropriately sized. Having large cities for the sake of large cities makes no sense and would mean for longer travel times which would be pointless.
Some falsely blame the engine but that is clearly not the case since we have large continuous zones. I think some just like to complain about the engine regardless even when it is without merit.
The zones are not large in this game at all. They're tiny by modern open world RPG standards. This game is absolutely held back by its engine.Edited by MLGProPlayer on March 30, 2019 6:09AM0 -
PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭Lore wise they are much larger with much larger populations. Just like how lore wise the zones would be much larger, Valenwood would be much thicker in forest, etc etc. But technology limits causes downscaling.
Last gen, if a game wanted to have realistic sized cities, they made it so only small parts of the city could be entered and explored. With the rest of the city being in background
Nowadays devs can create more relatistic sized cities ingame like Novigrad in Witcher.
ESO is 5 years old, and is an MMO which is so much more taxing on hardware then a single player RPG is.
What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.Edited by MLGProPlayer on March 30, 2019 6:18AM0 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭"ESO is 5 years old, and is an MMO which is so much more taxing on hardware then a single player RPG is."
Correction. ESO is eleven years old. Initial code and architecture was laid down in 2008.3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
Do you see the irony?
The size of the Cities has not seemed small to me. They seem appropriately sized. Having large cities for the sake of large cities makes no sense and would mean for longer travel times which would be pointless.
Some falsely blame the engine but that is clearly not the case since we have large continuous zones. I think some just like to complain about the engine regardless even when it is without merit.
The zones are not large in this game at all. They're tiny by modern open world RPG standards. This game is absolutely held back by its engine.
Provide an example of an MMORPG with larger Zones. RPGs that are not MMORPG are irrelevant.
BTW, if they divide the zones up into smaller sections that really does not count either. That is a tactic I have seen in some MMORPGs to make zones look large, but have them actually be a several small zones.
Lets also limit this to major MMORPGs. Small ones with basically no population because no one wants to play are not worth considering when comparing anything of value.
Edited by idk on March 30, 2019 6:28AM4 -
Mitrenga✭✭✭✭✭You can not compare an online game with a game that requires no internet connection to play. It's beyond apples and oranges. I remember a time that Rawlkha was so crowded and everyone was parking there before logging off, you could not even load your char in there. Basically, game was kicking you out because of the connection time out. Now, imagine Rawlkha as a big establishment with that many players. We would be doomed.
However, this should have been considered pre-launch. Maybe ZoS didn't expect that large player base? I don't know. Looks like it would not be logical to create crowded, dynamic cities with this engine&server quality.1 -
PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards1 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Witcher 3 is a MMO?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Hardly. Witcher 3 is not an MMORPG.3 -
PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Witcher 3 is a MMO?PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Hardly. Witcher 3 is not an MMORPG.
I was talking about TES VI and how the scale of cities in Skyrim and ESO wont cut it today thanks to newer RPG's like W3 setting the bar higher
Read above conversation lolEdited by PrayingSeraph on March 30, 2019 6:44AM2 -
Ysbriel✭✭✭✭✭Its not that half of the city its not accessible, its that you have access to parts where you should have access. You wouldn't expect to go inside every private property in any city or all of it to be just public right? the other thing is that this is an MMORPG and we are the population moving back and forth. you will have games like GTA that add tons of NPC walking around but you cant enter all buildings either. They do the same thing as other places because generally speaking what does everyone do around town anyways? work, walk around, shop, eat, drink, perform, preach and we can go on and on on the same thing you can see IRL that is basic in any city. The last thing is, look at the disk space that ESO requires right now with everything they have, no imagine making things at a larger scale.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Witcher 3 is a MMO?PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Hardly. Witcher 3 is not an MMORPG.
I was talking about TES VI and how the scale of cities in Skyrim and ESO wont cut it today thanks to newer RPG's like W3 setting the bar higher
Read above conversation lol
And in the context of this thread, which is about MMORPGs, non-MMOs are not very relevant. That was the context of my comment.4 -
PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Witcher 3 is a MMO?PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Hardly. Witcher 3 is not an MMORPG.
I was talking about TES VI and how the scale of cities in Skyrim and ESO wont cut it today thanks to newer RPG's like W3 setting the bar higher
Read above conversation lol
And in the context of this thread, which is about MMORPGs, non-MMOs are not very relevant. That was the context of my comment.
Okay, but that part you responded to was not directed to ESO or any MMO's. It was me and another member talking about what we hope to see in the announced TES VI.
So I'm kinda confused what your point is lol
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TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Because our computers are not THAT powerful, yet. Neither are our connections.Why the cities are so small?
Its all about the ammount of data... the three bottlenecks are how much your computer can handle in memory and processing power ways (usually not the worst bottleneck, unless its an old machine), how much can be sent over your internet access each sec (that's a big one!), and how much their servers can handle juggling all those online clients without getting all laggy (play cyrodil a lot, or go while popular events are running and you might get a better idea about that).
And the better a game looks... the more data is in everything. So the choice for the developers is to either make it look good and small, or make it look crappy and large. Guess which they picked here?
And yeah, I have also dreamt about a new revolution on the hardware sector, maybe optronic computers or whatever, that are much caster, powerful and run eithout hamsters...
And a redoing of ESO with every overlans region ten times its current size and every city three times... who knows, maybe someday it might happen? I kinda doubt I will live to see it tho...1 -
Lyserus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you want to “live” in a big city, go Orsinium or Abah's Landing, those two are gigantic and beautifully designed cities.
You can make an argument about why altmeri cities are smaller tho: elf population is smaller, and there are many cities/towns in summerset so the population spread thin （where orsinium and Abah are the only cities in the surrounding area）2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Witcher 3 is a MMO?PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Hardly. Witcher 3 is not an MMORPG.
I was talking about TES VI and how the scale of cities in Skyrim and ESO wont cut it today thanks to newer RPG's like W3 setting the bar higher
Read above conversation lol
And in the context of this thread, which is about MMORPGs, non-MMOs are not very relevant. That was the context of my comment.
Okay, but that part you responded to was not directed to ESO or any MMO's. It was me and another member talking about what we hope to see in the announced TES VI.
So I'm kinda confused what your point is lol
Okay, it is in an ESO thread about ESO which should have been pretty obvious. If you are confused then basically my comment was leading to demonstrating that your post is irrelevant to the thread, just as the person who asked you if Witcher 3 was an MMO was probably doing.Edited by idk on March 30, 2019 7:31AM0 -
PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Witcher 3 is a MMO?PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Hardly. Witcher 3 is not an MMORPG.
I was talking about TES VI and how the scale of cities in Skyrim and ESO wont cut it today thanks to newer RPG's like W3 setting the bar higher
Read above conversation lol
And in the context of this thread, which is about MMORPGs, non-MMOs are not very relevant. That was the context of my comment.
Okay, but that part you responded to was not directed to ESO or any MMO's. It was me and another member talking about what we hope to see in the announced TES VI.
So I'm kinda confused what your point is lol
Okay, it is in an ESO thread about ESO which should have been pretty obvious. If you are confused then basically I am telling you that your post is irrelevant to the thread, just as the person who asked you if Witcher 3 was an MMO was probably doing.
Are you suggesting we can't reference other RPG's and cities in them comparatively to ESO cities as per the topic?
Mate, it was me and another briefly discussing after addressing the topic on hand how we look forward to seeing cities in Elder Scrolls VI
Your arguing and responses to me are utterly pointless...
Well whatever I guessEdited by PrayingSeraph on March 30, 2019 7:40AM4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Witcher 3 is a MMO?PrayingSeraph wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »PrayingSeraph wrote: »What I am interested is the scale of cities in TES VI
This. I'll be extremely disappointed if Sentinel (or whatever is the largest city they go with) is 12 buildings and 15 NPCs again. Technology should not be a limiting factor in scale anymore as we've seen with a number of recent AAA RPGs.
Fortunately Witcher 3 raised the bar and I am sure Bethesda is aware that Skyrim/ESO scale won't be acceptable in today's standards
Hardly. Witcher 3 is not an MMORPG.
I was talking about TES VI and how the scale of cities in Skyrim and ESO wont cut it today thanks to newer RPG's like W3 setting the bar higher
Read above conversation lol
And in the context of this thread, which is about MMORPGs, non-MMOs are not very relevant. That was the context of my comment.
Okay, but that part you responded to was not directed to ESO or any MMO's. It was me and another member talking about what we hope to see in the announced TES VI.
So I'm kinda confused what your point is lol
Okay, it is in an ESO thread about ESO which should have been pretty obvious. If you are confused then basically I am telling you that your post is irrelevant to the thread, just as the person who asked you if Witcher 3 was an MMO was probably doing.
Are you suggesting we can't reference other RPG's and cities in them comparatively to ESO cities as per the topic?
Mate, it was me and another briefly discussing after addressing the topic on hand how we look forward to seeing cities in Elder Scrolls VI
Your arguing and responses to me are utterly pointless...
You can reference Jesus and the Dali Lama if you wish, but it would still seem out of place and context.
BTW, it is you that is arguing with me. I merely pointed out a fact, after someone else asked the question. You are the one that has turned that into a pointless argument. So lets keep those facts straight.Edited by idk on March 30, 2019 7:42AM2