¿What should ZoS do about the current state of tanking?

max_only · March 2019

Revert 1h enchantment nerf for tanking (Give 1h and shield passives a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, or at least only to crusher/weakening, or give us the option to exchange the shield enchant for a full sword enchant)

Roboplus wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

It's disgusting for immersion.

Elder Scrolls.

The franchise where by the end of the game, you're wielding enchantments so magicked up and throwing spells or lacing your weapons with poisons so powerful, your armor weight class and weapon type are practically aesthetic choices.

A franchise where you can punch someone in such a way that you paralyze every muscle in their body for several seconds.

Where you can become completely and permanently invisible via 100% Camouflage.

A tank with a staff is immersion breaking.

It is though.

AbysmalGhul · March 2019

Drako_Ei wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

What's wrong with a destro/resto back bar on a tank?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, im not saying "REMOVE STAVES FROM THE GAME", they are fine. I just want more options for tanking, i personally think a staff is the last weapon a tank on heavy armor, it just feels wrong to some.

1h and shield + 2h backbar
double 1h and shield

make more sense than (using our common sense and not ZoS'):

1h and shield + mage's staff

I just want more options, i was fine using double 1h and shield, i knew lightning staff was meta because of the offbalance, but i could live with that, but now its mandatory for vet trials (either ice of lightning) because of the 1h enchant nerf. I used to love tanking vet trials, but they took the option i was using away, i cant bring myself to use a staff on my main character... but that renders turogs useless.

So yeah.. nothing wrong with destro/restro backbar, but can we have destro/restro + MORE OPTIONS for backbar?

I didn't imply that you were implying to "REMOVE ALL STAVES FROM THE GAME" I was wondering why you thought they were such a problem.

You aren't forced to equip a destro back bar. You're free to equip whatever you want. I prefer using a destro staff back bar for buffs and debuffs. I've never used it for off-balance and I've never been forced to use my set-up in trials either.

What other options could you have besides absorbing damage and aiding in support? BTW, you can get creative with your tanking set-up...even more so than DPS who are limited in what they can use to be effective.

WhyMustItBe · March 2019

Revert 1h enchantment nerf for tanking (Give 1h and shield passives a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, or at least only to crusher/weakening, or give us the option to exchange the shield enchant for a full sword enchant)

Drako_Ei wrote: »

ZoS nerfed our crusher, forcing the competitive tanks to backbar ice staff (or even worse, lightning staff).
I put some of my ideas at the options. Personally... if 1 or 2 becomes true i will start using my tank again.

The change to 1-Hand enchantments was poorly thought out. Changing dual wield this way would make sense and be only slightly a nerf since 99% of dual wield DPS backbar bow anyway...

But 1H+ Shield is NOT TWO WEAPONS. To treat it like having two separate weapons equipped when the 2nd enchant is mainly defensive is to fail to recognize the relevant stat power equivalent of purely offensive vs. defensive enchants.

The nerf should never have been applied to 1H+ Shield. It removes options from tanks which already have far more limited options and in a way that is totally inappropriate by lumping offensive and defensive enchantments into the same category of relative power.

Having 1000 extra stamina (or like 500-550 more of each stat if prismatic) is not the same as having a 2nd DPS enchant.

Pulque · March 2019

Other (Comment your idea)

I’ve been running ice back bar since cwc. I’m used to it.

Sleep · March 2019

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delete tanks

r34lian · March 2019

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I just love to tank specially with pet sorcs and warden just love the feeling when they throw atronach , bear , scamp , daedroth up my face and then boss starts playing hide and seek

srfrogg23 · March 2019

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Protossyder wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

simple solution, implement spears into the game and give them tank morphs

Spears would actually be the perfect two handed version of daggers

They should do one-handed and two-handed versions of spears. Running around with a shield and a one-handed spear like one of the Spartans from 300 would be pretty awesome.

Dual wielding spears would look weird, but whatever...

Probably like this:

YEEESSSS!!!

CleymenZero · March 2019

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I think it's not fun enough to tank
I am learning slowly but the role VS a DD is not boring because there's a lot more going on but I don't know how to describe it...

The whole 1 shot mechanics are interesting but I think a tank should be able to take some one shots that would leave him with 1k health or something so you can come back to the fight without the whole fight going to sh!t. That's the opinion of a fledgling tank coming as a DD.

I thing a passive that boosts 1H enchants is a great idea. Very good thinking there. The nerf wasn't made for tanks but for dual wield to balance. It was made to reduce the gap between the 2 so running 1h and shield should give you a full enchant! It wouldn't even be broken for pvp, it would be perfect!

Reworking arena weapons would be a great idea. We should see what can be done but I don't think reworking wrecking blow is a good idea. As a DD, I run some 2H build for pve and on a stamsorc pulled 60k+ on some raid bosses using wrecking blow. If anything, the carve morph that give the bleed should apply the crusher enchant with the bleed. I know it sounds like going back to initial murkmire broken enchants but they were broken on dual wield and not on 2H weapons IMO.

Anyways, I don't think tanking is a lot of fun and that may be why the tank population is so low.

Anotherone773 · March 2019

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Tanking in this game is boring, tedious, and exhausting. I typically play mostly tanks and heals in dungeons and raids in these types of games and tanking in this game is such nightmare i rarely do it. The whole tanking role needs to reworked and made into something fun and interesting to play. Then maybe people wont feel the need to fake tank so much.

GraphicArtistYT · March 2019

They should give us full shields and a AOE taunt

Iccotak · March 2019

Mojmir wrote: »

simple solution, implement spears into the game and give them tank morphs

Give us Spears in the Chapter 2020

Iccotak · March 2019

The problem is that players don't really have a choice now, they have to use a Frost Staff
Which goes against what many chose that class for.

I'm playing a legionaire not a battlemage and I don't want to have to play a battlemage in order to be a good tank
ZOS keeps putting players in battlemage positions and it is irritating

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Revert 1h enchantment nerf for tanking (Give 1h and shield passives a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, or at least only to crusher/weakening, or give us the option to exchange the shield enchant for a full sword enchant)

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is that players don't really have a choice now, they have to use a Frost Staff
Which goes against what many chose that class for.

I'm playing a legionaire not a battlemage and I don't want to have to play a battlemage in order to be a good tank
ZOS keeps putting players in battlemage positions and it is irritating

Bro, you are a little bit late to show. Frost staff now is like an mark of inexperienced tank, who only learns trials. Experienced tanks run lightning staff or bow.

Iccotak · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is that players don't really have a choice now, they have to use a Frost Staff
Which goes against what many chose that class for.

I'm playing a legionaire not a battlemage and I don't want to have to play a battlemage in order to be a good tank
ZOS keeps putting players in battlemage positions and it is irritating

Bro, you are a little bit late to show. Frost staff now is like an mark of inexperienced tank, who only learns trials. Experienced tanks run lightning staff or bow.

I use both lightning and frost staves, either way the point still remains

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Revert 1h enchantment nerf for tanking (Give 1h and shield passives a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, or at least only to crusher/weakening, or give us the option to exchange the shield enchant for a full sword enchant)

Iccotak wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is that players don't really have a choice now, they have to use a Frost Staff
Which goes against what many chose that class for.

I'm playing a legionaire not a battlemage and I don't want to have to play a battlemage in order to be a good tank
ZOS keeps putting players in battlemage positions and it is irritating

Bro, you are a little bit late to show. Frost staff now is like an mark of inexperienced tank, who only learns trials. Experienced tanks run lightning staff or bow.

I use both lightning and frost staves, either way the point still remains

If you already using them, then what's your concern? If you mean elder scroll lore, well it never was about "tanking with shield only", almost all heroes were mix of magicka and weapon skills, and you "tanked" with your armor and enchantments, not with a shield, which was just an option and useful mostly as source of additional enchantment.

Facefister · March 2019

Other (Comment your idea)

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

The problem is that players don't really have a choice now, they have to use a Frost Staff
Which goes against what many chose that class for.

I'm playing a legionaire not a battlemage and I don't want to have to play a battlemage in order to be a good tank
ZOS keeps putting players in battlemage positions and it is irritating

Bro, you are a little bit late to show. Frost staff now is like an mark of inexperienced tank, who only learns trials. Experienced tanks run lightning staff or bow.

"My healers are too lazy"

Dragneel1207 · March 2019

Revert 1h enchantment nerf for tanking (Give 1h and shield passives a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, or at least only to crusher/weakening, or give us the option to exchange the shield enchant for a full sword enchant)

No tanking
all play dps
then np

Dubhliam · March 2019

I think it's fine as it is now.

Honestly, I think that people need to learn to adapt and change.
Many already have.

The real solution to the "problem" you are presenting here is for meta to shift to healers having infused Crusher enchants.

God, I know I would be happy to finally ditch the damn Torug set.

Also, when will ZOS finally give us a worthy alternative to Alkosh?

LeagueTroll · March 2019

Revert 1h enchantment nerf for tanking (Give 1h and shield passives a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, or at least only to crusher/weakening, or give us the option to exchange the shield enchant for a full sword enchant)

Add passive to 1h shield is good nuf. Casting blockade on ice staff bar cost so much mag.

Drako_Ei · March 2019

Make 2H swords the stamina version of lightning staves (Change unused morphs to give group utility like Wreckling blow: offbalance/Stampede: ranged interrumpt, offbalance if interrumpt/Carve: minor maim)

Dubhliam wrote: »

I think it's fine as it is now.

Honestly, I think that people need to learn to adapt and change.
Many already have.

The real solution to the "problem" you are presenting here is for meta to shift to healers having infused Crusher enchants.

God, I know I would be happy to finally ditch the damn Torug set.

Also, when will ZOS finally give us a worthy alternative to Alkosh?

Will never happen, groups force tanks to lightning staves now

Peekachu99 · March 2019

Other (Comment your idea)

Fine as is, or impliment a 1h and Orb for Magicka tanks. Personally I love the frost staff utility on my Magden, though I understand the clamouring for “ice dps”.

max_only · March 2019

Revert 1h enchantment nerf for tanking (Give 1h and shield passives a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, or at least only to crusher/weakening, or give us the option to exchange the shield enchant for a full sword enchant)

Charged lightning staff right? For science now that I don’t tank anymore than I absolutely have to.

Drako_Ei · March 2019

Make 2H swords the stamina version of lightning staves (Change unused morphs to give group utility like Wreckling blow: offbalance/Stampede: ranged interrumpt, offbalance if interrumpt/Carve: minor maim)

max_only wrote: »

Charged lightning staff right? For science now that I don’t tank anymore than I absolutely have to.

Infused actually for crusher enchantment, but still some groups enforce lightning to the tank, even if its a minimal uptime on offbalance

I actually use lightning but i hate so much seeing my main character wielding a magic stick.

Zos destroyed my main character, from pvp to tank, to a tank that i dont like and my crafter

MikaHR · March 2019

" Make 2H swords the stamina version of lightning staves (Change unused morphs"

Pretty much all 2H morphs are used.

"I thing a passive that boosts 1H enchants is a great idea. Very good thinking there. The nerf wasn't made for tanks but for dual wield to balance."

You get 2 enchantments 1 for weapon and 1 for shield. Its convenient how everyone "forgets" shield enchantment.

Drako_Ei · March 2019

Make 2H swords the stamina version of lightning staves (Change unused morphs to give group utility like Wreckling blow: offbalance/Stampede: ranged interrumpt, offbalance if interrumpt/Carve: minor maim)

MikaHR wrote: »

" Make 2H swords the stamina version of lightning staves (Change unused morphs"

Pretty much all 2H morphs are used.

"I thing a passive that boosts 1H enchants is a great idea. Very good thinking there. The nerf wasn't made for tanks but for dual wield to balance."

You get 2 enchantments 1 for weapon and 1 for shield. Its convenient how everyone "forgets" shield enchantment.

Disable shield enchant then!

Ahashra · March 2019

Make 2H swords the stamina version of lightning staves (Change unused morphs to give group utility like Wreckling blow: offbalance/Stampede: ranged interrumpt, offbalance if interrumpt/Carve: minor maim)

Been tanking since release, but recently shelved my tank to play DPS for a bit. 1hand + shield has been in a bad state ever since the first round of nerfs shortly after release. Since then the whole tree has needed a complete revamp, IMO. Any further nerfs are completely unjustified. If the skills aren't working as intended then the DEVs should detach tanking from the skill line and work it into undaunted or something, so that 1h can be balanced appropriately and tanks can still put points into the appropriate utility.

idk · March 2019

GraphicArtistYT wrote: »

They should give us full shields and a AOE taunt

Neither are needed by any margin.

For the most part MMORPGs have more players playing DPS builds as that role is much easier than doing a support role decent. Yes, truly good dps comes from a very skilled player and is not easy, but also truly good tanking and healing comes form very skilled players and does not come easy.

With 4 man content dps are a dime a dozen. With trials, especially vet trials, tanks and healers are a dime a dozen and the those that are good get to raid in the large group content. Those that are not are relegated to dps roles or stick to tanking the easier content.

However, ESO permits us to easily tank most 4 man dungeons on our dps characters by just swapping out gear and skills. This part is a choice, but most stick with DPS and deal with it because it is easier.

BTW, most decent tanks avoid GF random groups due to bad experience with dps. They can easily get into groups without having to rely on GF to put them in a group. They avoid bad dps that way.

Ri_Khan · March 2019

Make 2H swords the stamina version of lightning staves (Change unused morphs to give group utility like Wreckling blow: offbalance/Stampede: ranged interrumpt, offbalance if interrumpt/Carve: minor maim)

Because more options = better.

The first one should also happen and is probably more realistic though. S&B took this unnecessary collateral damage from the DW nerf. This needs to be addressed.

DaveMoeDee · March 2019

idk wrote: »

GraphicArtistYT wrote: »

They should give us full shields and a AOE taunt

Neither are needed by any margin.

For the most part MMORPGs have more players playing DPS builds as that role is much easier than doing a support role decent. Yes, truly good dps comes from a very skilled player and is not easy, but also truly good tanking and healing comes form very skilled players and does not come easy.

With 4 man content dps are a dime a dozen. With trials, especially vet trials, tanks and healers are a dime a dozen and the those that are good get to raid in the large group content. Those that are not are relegated to dps roles or stick to tanking the easier content.

However, ESO permits us to easily tank most 4 man dungeons on our dps characters by just swapping out gear and skills. This part is a choice, but most stick with DPS and deal with it because it is easier.

BTW, most decent tanks avoid GF random groups due to bad experience with dps. They can easily get into groups without having to rely on GF to put them in a group. They avoid bad dps that way.

When people talk about a tank shortage, I feel like they are ignoring the fact that only 2 tanks are needed in 12 person trials and often even just 1/12 in a normal trial run. I may get into a group instantly if I do a daily random vet dungeon, but If I sign up late for a guild trials run, I'm usually looking at a bunch of open DPS slots while I'm on a wait list for a tank slot.

Similarly, I regularly see dps recruiting for a trial run in guild chat, but rarely the need for a tank.

I have stuck with mostly tanking because I enjoy it and because I like to complete content on my main, but I abandoned using my main for event content since he already has the quests achievements and because killing trash in the Glenumbra delves is so fast with higher dps alts. I might even stop using my main for getting DLC achievements because I'm not interested in long fights with trash mobs.

I have no point of comparison because I've never played another MMO and never make tank characters in SP RPGs.

John_Falstaff · March 2019

The thread went from discussion of S&B nerf to general discussion of what's wrong with tanking and how to make tanking great again - and I don't think that improving passives or giving more tanking utility would cut it.

Sure, reverting the nerf will make tank's life better. More utility, more group support. But I think that those who call for granting more directly dealt damage to tanks are also those closest to the root of the problem with tanking in general. Tanking is a support role (healing too, for that matter). It requires the mindset for it, and part of the reason why it's not quite as fun is built into the very concept of tanking. Tanking does not offer what DPS does: instant gratification. Damage dealer gets to stab and slash things (throw fireballs, cast lightnings on their heads), see their health bar going down, smite the evil and see it falling on the ground. Action results in a visible, tangible reward. It's easily measurable in visible numbers of amount of righteous hurt delivered.

Not so with tanking. Tank facilitates. Tank's work is hard to quantify. When it's done very well, it's unnoticed and taken for granted. There's nothing left to brag about. Group struggles? Tank/healer to blame. Group breezes through content? Good damage dealers; the only praise for tank will be - 'nice debuffing, running Alkosh, no?'. (For healers, even less of that.) But above all, tank isn't directly involved into the group's main activity: killing stuff. We're raised on instant gratification, and there's none to be had for tanks, they have to get by without that (very important - not just in games, but everywhere) chunk of enjoyment, compensating by their mind's attunement to the support role, and for most people, it can't fill the natural need to be directly involved and get immediate feedback.

So, I don't think that changing passives or reverting the nerf will miraculously make tank role glorious and desired. Not to the point of suddenly making it fun for a lot more people and solving queue issues. Part of the reason why I, for instance, prefer tanking with friends and guildmates (aside from not being judged, because I started tanking much later than dealing damage) - this way, there's a stronger sense of accomplishing things together, with everyone being important, and not a competition on who contributes most. Because as a tank, I'm not automatically given an instant pat on the shoulder for job well done, the way DDs are. Don't think it's going to change.