Templar tank's self-healing needs a fix!
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ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Sorc> Clannfear, Restraining Prison
Warden> Polar Wind and vines, Gripping Shards
DK> Igneous and dragon Blood, Talons
NB> Dark Cloak, Ice Blockade
Templar> 5,5k Honor the dead tooltips on 20k Magicka that can hit other player instead of yourself, Ice Blockade
Ice wall is not used for the same reason the rest of the skills you have on that list. Time freeze or bows bombard would be the skills you would use in place on temps and nb tanks. Wall is use for procing back bar enchantments, you can't rely on it to cc mobs.
Also all you are forgetting about deep thoughts, which is a flat heal, heals and gives resources back, pop sun sheild and go into deep thoughts to bring your health up, the major protection from the pysjic skill line will apply to sun sheild and keep you up longer and you get resources back.
Good luck with that after a nocturnal favor in shadowrealm
But the bow backbar for bombard is fairly viable!
I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you please explain in detail?
It's a mechanic in vcr, z'maja "heavy attack" if you will. In the shadow realm you dont have a healer to back you up, and you need means to keep yourself alive from dots and heavy pressure, say burst healing. I believe every class has a chance at achieving this with their class toolkit, except templars most likely
Fair enough but what vet trial guild would let a non dk/warden in anyway? For the vast majority of the game, tankplars work just fine.
That's exactly my point mate, this shouldnt be a thing. There's good reasons behind this refusal, to be honest. My guild trusted me enough lo let me do as I pleased. And I went tankplar a couple of times. But after trying, this is my clear conclusion. And every class should be able to be competitive in any role. Dont you think? Sadly, this is not the case right now.
i suppose it depends on what you mean as "competitive", mate. If your vision of the the game is nothing but the latest timed Vet HM trials, then no, i don't think every class should be "competitive" because that mean all the classes would have to be the exact same becuase even if it was a 1% difference, those type of players would accept nothing less.
if you mean anything less then that, in my opinion, all classes are "competitive", if you know how to play your class and role. all the tools are in the game for every class to be an effective tank, something that could not be said when i started the game in 2014.
How exactly do you define "1%" for tanks?
Also, you are wrong. There is a difference of more than 10% between various DD specs, and I've seen them all in trials. But templar tanks are just so much worse for all content that anyone who can work with them will do better with any other class. The gap is massive.3 -
Alucu✭✭✭Competitive as in actually viable to complete veteran non hm content in most cases.
I dont think enabling one health based morph heal for templars as the OP said is that much of an identity threat for balance as long as it is self cast only. (This pattern is present in radiant ward as well as bone shield and igneous shield). It would be really helpful for PvE tanking purposes and also for Stamplars in PvP being one of the specs with the worst healing allowing them SnB/Dual wield builds, perhaps with no rally which is really a common thing in most stamina pvp builds.
For example. DKs with health specs go green dragon blood, DKs with magicka specs go coagulating blood
Sorcs with health specs go clannfear and magicka specs matriarch. Nbs use dark cloak for healing and damage specs use cloak to enable crit healing from stamina/magicka sources. Templars could be BoL/Honor the Dead
Just my two cents anyway
@Checkmath what do you think?Edited by Alucu on January 11, 2019 3:32PM2 -
Alucu✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Sorc> Clannfear, Restraining Prison
Warden> Polar Wind and vines, Gripping Shards
DK> Igneous and dragon Blood, Talons
NB> Dark Cloak, Ice Blockade
Templar> 5,5k Honor the dead tooltips on 20k Magicka that can hit other player instead of yourself, Ice Blockade
Ice wall is not used for the same reason the rest of the skills you have on that list. Time freeze or bows bombard would be the skills you would use in place on temps and nb tanks. Wall is use for procing back bar enchantments, you can't rely on it to cc mobs.
Also all you are forgetting about deep thoughts, which is a flat heal, heals and gives resources back, pop sun sheild and go into deep thoughts to bring your health up, the major protection from the pysjic skill line will apply to sun sheild and keep you up longer and you get resources back.
Good luck with that after a nocturnal favor in shadowrealm But the bow backbar for bombard is fairly viable!
I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you please explain in detail?
Also, if I ran a tankplar, this is what my bars would look like-
Front bar s/b
Extended ritual- radiant ward- repentance(switch out for deep thoughts if needed)- heroic slash- pierce armor- ulti empowering sweep/shield discipline
Back bar ice/lighting staff
Silver leash, time freeze, wall of elements, power of the light, restoring focus- ulti warhorn
This has everything you need.
You are probably doomed out of craglorn with just that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=19390
But yes, a lot of common factors.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Sorc> Clannfear, Restraining Prison
Warden> Polar Wind and vines, Gripping Shards
DK> Igneous and dragon Blood, Talons
NB> Dark Cloak, Ice Blockade
Templar> 5,5k Honor the dead tooltips on 20k Magicka that can hit other player instead of yourself, Ice Blockade
Ice wall is not used for the same reason the rest of the skills you have on that list. Time freeze or bows bombard would be the skills you would use in place on temps and nb tanks. Wall is use for procing back bar enchantments, you can't rely on it to cc mobs.
Also all you are forgetting about deep thoughts, which is a flat heal, heals and gives resources back, pop sun sheild and go into deep thoughts to bring your health up, the major protection from the pysjic skill line will apply to sun sheild and keep you up longer and you get resources back.
Good luck with that after a nocturnal favor in shadowrealm But the bow backbar for bombard is fairly viable!
I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you please explain in detail?
Also, if I ran a tankplar, this is what my bars would look like-
Front bar s/b
Extended ritual- radiant ward- repentance(switch out for deep thoughts if needed)- heroic slash- pierce armor- ulti empowering sweep/shield discipline
Back bar ice/lighting staff
Silver leash, time freeze, wall of elements, power of the light, restoring focus- ulti warhorn
This has everything you need.
You are probably doomed out of craglorn with just that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=19390
But yes, a lot of common factors.
what is this? you are saying you are an end game tank but you have ransack? please square that up before anything.
i really think you are sleeping on deep thoughts. you get 2k of health magic and stam back a second and major protection while channeling. more then you will get from vigor. much more. deep thoughts is so good, @Liofa uses it on his main warden tank build, see here, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/414877/end-game-pve-warden-main-tank-build-by-liofa-summerset/p1, and a quote-@Liofa Deep Thoughts give almost 4k resources (not counting the healing) in total in one second while Nature's Gift gives 250 per second. So I ditched Nature's Gift and the skills that proc it except Budding Seeds which I use for different reasons. It makes me tankier thanks to Deliberation passive and gives me a free 5k shield on demand. That's why ^^
Don't worry. I tried Magicka Recovery build. It just made me depend on healing others for my own sustain and my stats were lower because I had to invest Magicka Recovery to sustain Green Balance skills. Every fight I was in, Deep Thoughts performed better than other ways of sustaining while making me a lot tankier.
also take a look at that build, budding seeds is the only burst heal on his bar and that is there mostly for the synergy.
you are also missing out on a 12 meter snare when you are not running extended ritual. not to mention another synergy for your team.
0 -
Alucu✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Sorc> Clannfear, Restraining Prison
Warden> Polar Wind and vines, Gripping Shards
DK> Igneous and dragon Blood, Talons
NB> Dark Cloak, Ice Blockade
Templar> 5,5k Honor the dead tooltips on 20k Magicka that can hit other player instead of yourself, Ice Blockade
Ice wall is not used for the same reason the rest of the skills you have on that list. Time freeze or bows bombard would be the skills you would use in place on temps and nb tanks. Wall is use for procing back bar enchantments, you can't rely on it to cc mobs.
Also all you are forgetting about deep thoughts, which is a flat heal, heals and gives resources back, pop sun sheild and go into deep thoughts to bring your health up, the major protection from the pysjic skill line will apply to sun sheild and keep you up longer and you get resources back.
Good luck with that after a nocturnal favor in shadowrealm But the bow backbar for bombard is fairly viable!
I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you please explain in detail?
Also, if I ran a tankplar, this is what my bars would look like-
Front bar s/b
Extended ritual- radiant ward- repentance(switch out for deep thoughts if needed)- heroic slash- pierce armor- ulti empowering sweep/shield discipline
Back bar ice/lighting staff
Silver leash, time freeze, wall of elements, power of the light, restoring focus- ulti warhorn
This has everything you need.
You are probably doomed out of craglorn with just that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=19390
But yes, a lot of common factors.
what is this? you are saying you are an end game tank but you have ransack? please square that up before anything.
i really think you are sleeping on deep thoughts. you get 2k of health magic and stam back a second and major protection while channeling. more then you will get from vigor. much more. deep thoughts is so good, @Liofa uses it on his main warden tank build, see here, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/414877/end-game-pve-warden-main-tank-build-by-liofa-summerset/p1, and a quote-@Liofa Deep Thoughts give almost 4k resources (not counting the healing) in total in one second while Nature's Gift gives 250 per second. So I ditched Nature's Gift and the skills that proc it except Budding Seeds which I use for different reasons. It makes me tankier thanks to Deliberation passive and gives me a free 5k shield on demand. That's why ^^
Don't worry. I tried Magicka Recovery build. It just made me depend on healing others for my own sustain and my stats were lower because I had to invest Magicka Recovery to sustain Green Balance skills. Every fight I was in, Deep Thoughts performed better than other ways of sustaining while making me a lot tankier.
also take a look at that build, budding seeds is the only burst heal on his bar and that is there mostly for the synergy.
you are also missing out on a 12 meter snare when you are not running extended ritual. not to mention another synergy for your team.
You seem upset about that, but Is just that there is always someone with ele drain, you get that extra resist instead. I'll check Liofa build, thanksEdited by Alucu on January 11, 2019 4:58PM0 -
DoobZ69✭✭✭✭See? There you go. Non-DK tanks are 1% behind which is apparently just mostly being unable to finish HM on dlc dungeons and further (according to a post previously ^^^^). So I repeat myself:
If you're serious about tanking go DK. If not then keep pushing *** up hill.
When you can't even convince the community itself that they have a serious tank deficiency as they're happy to sit in a queue for 45 mins and quit at the drop of a hat then you're just talking into an empty echo chamber.
The "elite veteran raiding" section does not do PUGs and hardly does dungeons. They are not interested in the tools required for those venues (AKA: the 99% of the player base) because they don't need them: they play the META classes with META class guild members and bypass all but the 1-shot mechanics. They don't know and so don't care what the other classes are missing and ZOS seems to think trial raiders are the representation of the whole population and caters to that crowd.
Here's the common excuse for a lack of tanks from the "elite" who have explicitly told me they don't do dungeons and I don't know enough about trials: DK are the only tank of choice for everyone because of "Engulfing Flames".
These people don't know that there are mechanics in the game. They just out-DPS everything and when they can't they go and get more DPS. So pile on Engulfing Flames and every other form of DPS increase. Tanking tools are seen as a fool's wet dream - not required at all. Again, ZOS seems to cater for this and decided to add filler abilities like "Silver Leash" and "time stop", as an after-thought for those who actually are a voice of reason, for the classes that are missing them. Naturally they're somewhat lackluster compared to the class ones otherwise everyone gravitates to the same build so those who have to use those tools are behind in their use. Sounds fair , if every class had to use a filler. But the DK does not and is left with every superior tanking tool (so this solution is really more of a FU to non-DK classes). So there's your reason for using a DK - it has all the best tanking tools. DUH!
So if you want to tank (serious about tanking) you either have to go DK (after you've already proven yourself you're allowed to bring a Warden and to some extent other classes for the lols) or you push *** up hill.
I've laid out all the deficiencies of the other classes and how they fall behind the DK no matter the scenario - reply: nope, its just Engulfing Flames. Then they ask for my solution to those deficiencies - reply: nope, its just Engulfing Flames. The situation is simply unacknowledged. And then it just goes in circles as they discuss stupid stuff like staff tanking and pets and class specific "fluff" to be tweaked in order to bring up the tanking population. Result? DPS queues keep getting longer and longer and nobody even attempts to do DLC dungeons on vet and I've given up even attempting HM on some of them.
Its a huge loss for the game. When I tell my friends this they get turned off from the game and find something else to play. Lack of viable choice is a major factor in the health of the game (perhaps its healthy enough in their eyes but who knows!) . ZOS needs to wake up but while the relevant community keeps its eyes and ears shut the players who are casual are constantly being held back from fully engaging in the game. Sure, they might fix this some day but the current community is ***.
/rant. over?10 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Sorc> Clannfear, Restraining Prison
Warden> Polar Wind and vines, Gripping Shards
DK> Igneous and dragon Blood, Talons
NB> Dark Cloak, Ice Blockade
Templar> 5,5k Honor the dead tooltips on 20k Magicka that can hit other player instead of yourself, Ice Blockade
Ice wall is not used for the same reason the rest of the skills you have on that list. Time freeze or bows bombard would be the skills you would use in place on temps and nb tanks. Wall is use for procing back bar enchantments, you can't rely on it to cc mobs.
Also all you are forgetting about deep thoughts, which is a flat heal, heals and gives resources back, pop sun sheild and go into deep thoughts to bring your health up, the major protection from the pysjic skill line will apply to sun sheild and keep you up longer and you get resources back.
Good luck with that after a nocturnal favor in shadowrealm But the bow backbar for bombard is fairly viable!
I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you please explain in detail?
Also, if I ran a tankplar, this is what my bars would look like-
Front bar s/b
Extended ritual- radiant ward- repentance(switch out for deep thoughts if needed)- heroic slash- pierce armor- ulti empowering sweep/shield discipline
Back bar ice/lighting staff
Silver leash, time freeze, wall of elements, power of the light, restoring focus- ulti warhorn
This has everything you need.
You are probably doomed out of craglorn with just that.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=19390
But yes, a lot of common factors.
what is this? you are saying you are an end game tank but you have ransack? please square that up before anything.
i really think you are sleeping on deep thoughts. you get 2k of health magic and stam back a second and major protection while channeling. more then you will get from vigor. much more. deep thoughts is so good, @Liofa uses it on his main warden tank build, see here, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/414877/end-game-pve-warden-main-tank-build-by-liofa-summerset/p1, and a quote-@Liofa Deep Thoughts give almost 4k resources (not counting the healing) in total in one second while Nature's Gift gives 250 per second. So I ditched Nature's Gift and the skills that proc it except Budding Seeds which I use for different reasons. It makes me tankier thanks to Deliberation passive and gives me a free 5k shield on demand. That's why ^^
Don't worry. I tried Magicka Recovery build. It just made me depend on healing others for my own sustain and my stats were lower because I had to invest Magicka Recovery to sustain Green Balance skills. Every fight I was in, Deep Thoughts performed better than other ways of sustaining while making me a lot tankier.
also take a look at that build, budding seeds is the only burst heal on his bar and that is there mostly for the synergy.
you are also missing out on a 12 meter snare when you are not running extended ritual. not to mention another synergy for your team.
You seem upset about that, but Is just that there is always someone with ele drain, you get that extra resist instead. I'll check Liofa build, thanks
So you are willing to give up a ~10% spell damage increase on mobs your healer does not hit with eledrain, for ~2.5% named damage reduction buff (which is actually like .025% damage reduction because of the way the game calculates damage reduction) that only impacts physical damage and those same healers ought to be handing out?Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on January 12, 2019 6:08AM2 -
datgladiatah✭✭✭I think the preferred idea when it comes to competitive is 'the right class for the right context'. I don't think classes should be answers for all at least in terms of where they could be best at determining each role. Templar tanks should bring something different from DK's and in the same context as all classes, but class uniqueness isn't apparent enough per each role. That's why everyone was upset when they hit NB healer damage, because that was their unique feature and now they just have no identity. If a DK's shielding and mitigation is one of their biggest tank features, then a Templar should possibly be more about retribution, punishing damage, healing (not necessarily or specifically, just in concept different than DK's other than what SnB does for a character). If all trials present the exact same copy-paste challenges, and PvE at least tends to (looking at all the 1 hit mechanics from the DLC dungeons), then obviously only one method will work. That's just a flaw with PvE AND class design though and I don't think Zenimax' goal to change that.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, DK healing has it's major downside as a "% of missing health" while all others get "% of health". So DK is best in emergency healing, but can't self-heal effectively when above 50% health. That's why I run battalion defender in dlc vets now, amazing set which constantly patches you up and occasionally may heal teammate before healer reacts, so "team-useful" tank-set criteria is fulfilled.
Sorc self-healing is best but eats two slots.
NB healing is over-time, 3 seconds is not the same as instant. NB is worst tank currently imo after evasion changes. Those 25% aoe reduction is nothing for tank, all deadly damage comes from HA's or mechanics, not from weak aoes.
Warden self-healing is 15% + a little over time, 15% is not that much actually.
So everybody have their downsides, you have that amazing restoring focus though. Please give my DK, NB and sorc tanks 1.5x major ward/resolve for 1k stamina which returns this stamina several times thereafter.
edit: mistype protection for ward/resolve
Edited by MartiniDaniels on January 13, 2019 6:53PM2 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Well, DK healing has it's major downside as a "% of missing health" while all others get "% of health". So DK is best in emergency healing, but can't self-heal effectively when above 50% health. That's why I run battalion defender in dlc vets now, amazing set which constantly patches you up and occasionally may heal teammate before healer reacts, so "team-useful" tank-set criteria is fulfilled.
Sorc self-healing is best but eats two slots.
NB healing is over-time, 3 seconds is not the same as instant. NB is worst tank currently imo after evasion changes. Those 25% aoe reduction is nothing for tank, all deadly damage comes from HA's or mechanics, not from weak aoes.
Warden self-healing is 15% + a little over time, 15% is not that much actually.
So everybody have their downsides, you have that amazing restoring focus though. Please give my DK, NB and sorc tanks 1.5x major protection for 1k stamina which returns this stamina several times thereafter.
Its the only stamina sustain skill for templars while in combat. -> We did fight long and hard to get it, so if you like to stick to your claim imo you have to change...
DK: combustion, helping hands and battle roar passives; tune down dragon blood to minor endurance (instead of major buff);
Sorc: tune down stamina part of unholy knowledge passive (to balance between (equalize) regen and skill cost); tune down either or both daedric protection and/or bound arnaments to allow a summed max stam regen of 10% only.
NB: Change stamina recovery ability of both or either: refreshing shadows and/or rentless focus to a summed max of 10% stamina regen; tune down stamina part of leeching strikes to reflect the maximum of stamina recovered by restoring focus and increase skillcosts accordingly...
just to get those classes down to equal grounds with templars ability of sustaining stamina.
Now, I've been there and personally I think I like DKs, NBs and even Sorcs too much to ask for such penalizing changes.
Adding to it I guess the uproar on the forums will be unbearable if all classes only had 1 RoT (restore stamina over time), 1 (minor) restoring buff and 1-2 direct return stamina skills (that either are costly or are of niche-use only) in their toolkit. So please, instead of looking at one skill, that finally hands out a stamina RoT (which was missing entirely in the templar toolkit, before!) have a look at the whole (much more complex and only partly and most likely not 100% correctly depicted) situation of sustaining stamina, before asking for changes you will (for sure!) not like.Edited by Elsterchen on January 13, 2019 10:53AM4 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Well, DK healing has it's major downside as a "% of missing health" while all others get "% of health". So DK is best in emergency healing, but can't self-heal effectively when above 50% health. That's why I run battalion defender in dlc vets now, amazing set which constantly patches you up and occasionally may heal teammate before healer reacts, so "team-useful" tank-set criteria is fulfilled.
Sorc self-healing is best but eats two slots.
NB healing is over-time, 3 seconds is not the same as instant. NB is worst tank currently imo after evasion changes. Those 25% aoe reduction is nothing for tank, all deadly damage comes from HA's or mechanics, not from weak aoes.
Warden self-healing is 15% + a little over time, 15% is not that much actually.
So everybody have their downsides, you have that amazing restoring focus though. Please give my DK, NB and sorc tanks 1.5x major protection for 1k stamina which returns this stamina several times thereafter.
Its the only stamina sustain skill for templars while in combat. -> We did fight long and hard to get it, so if you like to stick to your claim imo you have to change...
DK: combustion, helping hands and battle roar passives; tune down dragon blood to minor endurance (instead of major buff);
Sorc: tune down stamina part of unholy knowledge passive (to balance between (equalize) regen and skill cost); tune down either or both daedric protection and/or bound arnaments to allow a summed max stam regen of 10% only.
NB: Change stamina recovery ability of both or either: refreshing shadows and/or rentless focus to a summed max of 10% stamina regen; tune down stamina part of leeching strikes to reflect the maximum of stamina recovered by restoring focus and increase skillcosts accordingly...
just to get those classes down to equal grounds with templars ability of sustaining stamina.
Now, I've been there and personally I think I like DKs, NBs and even Sorcs too much to ask for such penalizing changes.
Adding to it I guess the uproar on the forums will be unbearable if all classes only had 1 RoT (restore stamina over time), 1 (minor) restoring buff and 1-2 direct return stamina skills (that either are costly or are of niche-use only) in their toolkit. So please, instead of looking at one skill, that finally hands out a stamina RoT (which was missing entirely in the templar toolkit, before!) have a look at the whole (much more complex and only partly and most likely not 100% correctly depicted) situation of sustaining stamina, before asking for changes you will (for sure!) not like.
Eh, i proposed anything about changes? I just told you that each class has it's advantages and disadvantages, and all classes aside from nb tanks (which signature abilities were destroyed last patch) are viable. Templars have ton of useful bonuses from passives which others doesn't have. I can't count how many times it was those couple seconds of resurrecting which were not enough to save the day.0 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Please give my DK, NB and sorc tanks 1.5x major protection for 1k stamina which returns this stamina several times thereafter.
^ that part may have been misleading. And obviously templars have their goodies... just like all other classes have. Personally I find the resurecting buff quite debateable, its a pure support skill for allies, that doesn't help the player at all in combat. I've been killed while resurrecting another player, too ... imo holding block while resurecting was a more effective approach to avoid this situation (in cyro this doesn't always work, tho).
edit: btt
Is there anyone with an idea on how to aproach to the healing situation for templar-tanks without buffing magplar and stamplar DDs too much and avoiding serious damage to templar healers ?
I feel this is a tricky situation, heal skills that are not scaling to max ressource pool may be to strong for DDs, same is probably true for a stamina based burst-heal (don't throw stones: I play stamplar and as much as i would love such a skill, I fear its easily overtuned when the base heal is set at good-for-non max ressource users (i.e. tanks
) - and at the same time it would probably mean our templar healers loose one option in their toolkit.
If healing ability for templar tanks would be linked to resistances its going to be hell to balance (remember hardcap), again carter to DDs (which might decide to just go heavy and have the tools to still dish out damage) and may bring up a new infestation of trollplars.
Linking it to health would lead to a situation similar to DKs, hence dilute class differences even more and take something unique away from a class. Imo this should be avoided at all costs.
... to me the answer was blinding flashes ... not a healing skill, but a skill buying time for restoring health (passively by having time for health recovery as well as actively through using supoptimal healing skills), but yeah, i don#t see this skill, or anything comparable comming back.
So anyone?
edit 2: maybe the answer IS health recovery instead of a healing skill, some sort of burst-recovery ... linked to damage taken or missing health ? Imagine sun shield not dishing out any damage, but increasing health recovery for each hit, or something like that ? Trollplars will love that for sure, but at least they won't gain anything from it - they still hit like wet noodles.Edited by Elsterchen on January 13, 2019 7:14PM2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »Please give my DK, NB and sorc tanks 1.5x major protection for 1k stamina which returns this stamina several times thereafter.
^ that part may have been misleading. And obviously templars have their goodies... just like all other classes have. Personally I find the resurecting buff quite debateable, its a pure support skill for allies, that doesn't help the player at all in combat. I've been killed while resurrecting another player, too ... imo holding block while resurecting was a more effective approach to avoid this situation (in cyro this doesn't always work, tho).
edit: yeah, i called major ward / resolve a protection as a whole, and forget about buff with same name sorry, english is not my native language Edited by MartiniDaniels on January 13, 2019 6:52PM0 -
ayu_fever✭✭✭✭✭i am very happy with my templar tank, as i have been with her for 3 years. many trials and dungeons completed!
i tried a DK tank just to see what all the fuss is about and i hated it.
it has too many sustain issues and i struggle staying alive or running out of resources.
i NEVER have those issues on my templar tank.
i use what i am comfortable with and focus on FUN, not being a meta chasing alcast sheep.PS4 NA
all characters are members of the ebonheart pact master race
BLOOD FOR THE PACT
main character:
Rebekah Straight-Fire, breton templar healer: THE FATEBRINGER (dungeons, trials, pvp)
—MERIDIA’S LUSTRANT— 1100+CP; alliance rank 21 (major grade 1); Rebekah is the most devoted and loyal follower of the lady of infinite energies and the highest ascendant of meridia’s purified legion and was forged from meridia’s brilliant radiance of purity.
other meta toons-
Alexa Straight-Fire, breton warden healer: THE ALCHEMIST (dungeons, trials)
Sasha Straight-Fire, nord dragonknight tank: THE UNBREAKABLE (dungeons, trials)
Freyja Straight-Fire, nord warden tank: THE ICEBERG (dungeons, trials)
Ororo Straight-Fire, dark elf magsorc: THE SHOCKWAVE (dungeons, trials)
Michonne Straight-Fire, redguard stamDK: THE EVISCERATOR (dungeons, trials)
just for fun toons-
Rhea Straight-Fire, wood elf warden stam healer: THE RANGER
Shiva Straight-Fire, high elf warden ice mage: THE CRYOMANCER
Morgana Straight-Fire, dark elf necromancer solo play: THE DEATHSINGER
Lucille Straight-Fire, dark elf nightblade solo play: THE VOIDWALKER
Diana Straight-Fire, nord templar tank: THE CLERIC
Falsetto Straight-Fire, orc stamsorc werewolf: THE THUNDERHOWL2 -
Mojmir✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i am very happy with my templar tank, as i have been with her for 3 years. many trials and dungeons completed!
i tried a DK tank just to see what all the fuss is about and i hated it.
it has too many sustain issues and i struggle staying alive or running out of resources.
i NEVER have those issues on my templar tank.
i use what i am comfortable with and focus on FUN, not being a meta chasing alcast sheep.
i felt the same way about templar tank, DK has sustain issues? not really if you approach it like a different type of tank. every class tanks differently, NB ive found is the most comfortable personally.
as for sustain, every class has access too deep thoughts skill. DK has been meta longer than alcast has been around. dont blame him.Edited by Mojmir on March 19, 2019 4:53PM1 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you build your templar tank for magicka usage it works a lot better than if you try to build it like you would a dk.
Templar has different strengths than a Dk. They make a much better tank for 3 dps dungeons in my opinion because they have amazing group heals.0 -
Alucu✭✭✭i am very happy with my templar tank, as i have been with her for 3 years. many trials and dungeons completed!
i tried a DK tank just to see what all the fuss is about and i hated it.
it has too many sustain issues and i struggle staying alive or running out of resources.
i NEVER have those issues on my templar tank.
i use what i am comfortable with and focus on FUN, not being a meta chasing alcast sheep.
What did you use in vcr for templar tank? Can you share? I'd really like to tank with templar there
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Every class is missing something, see no class ward for a nb. Repentance is a flat amount of heals though, as you said is fine and can be used by a tank just fine.
I'll take a heal over a ward any time. For blazing shield to be anywhere near as good as even the worst of the HP% heals, it would have to be twice as strong, because it doesn't benefit from block, minor/major vitality/mending, has only one CP star associated with it that is competing with other useful stars (unlike Blessed that is in the blue constellations), and doesn't benefit from healing received set bonuses either. Also, it can't be spammed if you got a big hit, it's only doing something if you're actually being hit.
Also, repentance is trash. And templars miss not just a proper self heal but also a CC.
I think Templar tanks are intended to build more into Magicka and Spell Damage to make their healing strong.
For CC, just use Time Stop.
I think this answers your question.
If you want to be effective at healing yourself as a Templar you're going to have to invest in Magicka-related stats, there is just no way around that fact. So be prepared to make some sacrifices to health and or stamina if you want to build a Paladin I mean Templar tank who heals itself. They can work, but they do take a significant investment. As another poster pointed out you can also provide healing to the group as well. I'm told they fixed the problems with their healing negating the heals of others in the group so that should no longer be an issue.Edited by Jeremy on March 22, 2019 8:18PM0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You guys are overthinking it. From a healer’s perspective the only requirement for a tank are tanking gear, to hold block and to taunt. This includes DLC vets... well maybe except the one Zaan comes from.
I usually worry more about feeding the tank resources then healing them. Healing is for the dps who stand in stupid.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten2 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I see a lot of folks trying to shoot OP down, but they are wrong.
Templar Tanks needs a solid health based self heal to stand on even ground with other Tanks (only NBs have as bad a heal - yes it's bad even with the new heal they got).
"All classes have to be different" - First off there are already several differences without bringing self heals into the discussion, as all tank classes IMO should have basic tools like a solid self heal. Templar is also missing the amount of CC that many other classes are missing for managing fights. And throwing out ideas like Deep Thoughts, Silver Leash, Time Stop, etc. are in for a world of hurt resource management wise. And let's not forget - you want things to be different, but what is every tank expected to wear? Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden - so you don't get to run gear to make up for things that are lacking and if you did - you are giving up something else vs that other class and still the weaker option.
Others are saying it's fine as is haven't tanked real end-game content (repentance as an example isn't that useful in most long trial boss fights - you are also running bar set ups built with your group in mind and don't have room to throw on a skill that might be sometimes usefull). There is a reason Templar Tanks are super rare in end-game raids and it's not ONLY b/c of buffs they don't provide, but survivability. Which is where the real problem is, b/c end game raid team going for score will reject a class based on buffs they can't provide even if they were all equally survivable classes, but teams that aren't end game top score raiders but still doing that content will actually have a bigger need for the survivability aspect over the buffs more often than not. So the differences are what? That DK provides the buffs you need and has shielding as good as Templar, better self heals, better CC, etc? Those are differences for the sake of variety. When you look at their tool kits on a basic level, Templars are lacking. (Not as much as NBs imo, but still lacking).
So the differences argument would still exist even if they took "Breath of Life" and gave it a health based self heal morph. This would eliminate giving a Templar both a strong self heal plus strong general heal in PvP b/c you'd have to choose one or the other. And there would still be a dozen other reasons to use other classes in various content, and DK would still be the go-to tank more often than not.
And the big question when we talk "Difference" -- what does Templar tank offer that other class tanks do not? Power of the Light? A buff most healers run, but sure, it's a small armor debuff that is nice that we can put on their list and say maybe you don't have a Templar healer, but it's also so small you could give or take especially when it will be over pen for many stam users combined with alkosh, crusher and major armor debuffs. But you aren't bringing big group heals to the table, though I guess you can put a purify circle down for useful synergy. No real CC as time stop is too clunky and expensive to use in the way Talons and Encase are used. No, a Warden for example brings something different to the table vs. a DK. The still have magicka based pulls and snares. Decent group healing abilities for a tank build. Toughness for the group. A shield that isn't useful in melee but OP vs ranged attacks, armor buffs for whole group and they STILL have a pretty solid self heal and variety of other heals/hots to combine with it. That is how you do differences, you offer something different that is still useful. I can see several things my Warden Tank offers for a group that my DK will not, even if he is a smidge less survivable to burst. I don't see that with my Templar Tank.
And let's not act like the differences are expert design elements carefully crafted into the game. The guys designing this stuff aside from worrying about how to balance pvp and pve together power wise also have little to no experience in doing the hardest content in the game at the highest level and even many that give feedback use meta classes and won't have the best feedback to offer (but the fact that most use DK with some Wardens tells you enough). Also, let's actually look at posts like this and remember the variety of content in the game and difficulty levels for it all. If you've used your templar tank on some pledges and seen no problems, that's not because of it being well balanced, but because you are doing content that some groups don't even bring tanks for. From someone that has a tank of every class and has tanked vHM dungeons with them, vHM trials, and PvP with them all, there are clear imbalance issues that need to be addressed == NB's need A LOT of love in the tanking department and Templars need a decent health based self heal (they have actually gotten several other changes over the last year to help them in tanking that they've needed).-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC6 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Templars have blazing shield which isnt a heal but if used correctly increases your effective health by a ton which can be better.
Back in the days of Blazing Shield I ran it in PvP. With just BS and invigorating drain there was no way in hell I was dying. I don't PvE much, but wouldn't something like that work? Invigorating drain not only heals for a lot with a high health pool, but it boosts your ult gen dramatically meaning more war horns.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Templars have blazing shield which isnt a heal but if used correctly increases your effective health by a ton which can be better.
Back in the days of Blazing Shield I ran it in PvP. With just BS and invigorating drain there was no way in hell I was dying. I don't PvE much, but wouldn't something like that work? Invigorating drain not only heals for a lot with a high health pool, but it boosts your ult gen dramatically meaning more war horns.
channel on a tank = no blocking = dead tank5 -
Alucu✭✭✭I see a lot of folks trying to shoot OP down, but they are wrong.
Templar Tanks needs a solid health based self heal to stand on even ground with other Tanks (only NBs have as bad a heal - yes it's bad even with the new heal they got).
"All classes have to be different" - First off there are already several differences without bringing self heals into the discussion, as all tank classes IMO should have basic tools like a solid self heal. Templar is also missing the amount of CC that many other classes are missing for managing fights. And throwing out ideas like Deep Thoughts, Silver Leash, Time Stop, etc. are in for a world of hurt resource management wise. And let's not forget - you want things to be different, but what is every tank expected to wear? Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden - so you don't get to run gear to make up for things that are lacking and if you did - you are giving up something else vs that other class and still the weaker option.
Others are saying it's fine as is haven't tanked real end-game content (repentance as an example isn't that useful in most long trial boss fights - you are also running bar set ups built with your group in mind and don't have room to throw on a skill that might be sometimes usefull). There is a reason Templar Tanks are super rare in end-game raids and it's not ONLY b/c of buffs they don't provide, but survivability. Which is where the real problem is, b/c end game raid team going for score will reject a class based on buffs they can't provide even if they were all equally survivable classes, but teams that aren't end game top score raiders but still doing that content will actually have a bigger need for the survivability aspect over the buffs more often than not. So the differences are what? That DK provides the buffs you need and has shielding as good as Templar, better self heals, better CC, etc? Those are differences for the sake of variety. When you look at their tool kits on a basic level, Templars are lacking. (Not as much as NBs imo, but still lacking).
So the differences argument would still exist even if they took "Breath of Life" and gave it a health based self heal morph. This would eliminate giving a Templar both a strong self heal plus strong general heal in PvP b/c you'd have to choose one or the other. And there would still be a dozen other reasons to use other classes in various content, and DK would still be the go-to tank more often than not.
And the big question when we talk "Difference" -- what does Templar tank offer that other class tanks do not? Power of the Light? A buff most healers run, but sure, it's a small armor debuff that is nice that we can put on their list and say maybe you don't have a Templar healer, but it's also so small you could give or take especially when it will be over pen for many stam users combined with alkosh, crusher and major armor debuffs. But you aren't bringing big group heals to the table, though I guess you can put a purify circle down for useful synergy. No real CC as time stop is too clunky and expensive to use in the way Talons and Encase are used. No, a Warden for example brings something different to the table vs. a DK. The still have magicka based pulls and snares. Decent group healing abilities for a tank build. Toughness for the group. A shield that isn't useful in melee but OP vs ranged attacks, armor buffs for whole group and they STILL have a pretty solid self heal and variety of other heals/hots to combine with it. That is how you do differences, you offer something different that is still useful. I can see several things my Warden Tank offers for a group that my DK will not, even if he is a smidge less survivable to burst. I don't see that with my Templar Tank.
And let's not act like the differences are expert design elements carefully crafted into the game. The guys designing this stuff aside from worrying about how to balance pvp and pve together power wise also have little to no experience in doing the hardest content in the game at the highest level and even many that give feedback use meta classes and won't have the best feedback to offer (but the fact that most use DK with some Wardens tells you enough). Also, let's actually look at posts like this and remember the variety of content in the game and difficulty levels for it all. If you've used your templar tank on some pledges and seen no problems, that's not because of it being well balanced, but because you are doing content that some groups don't even bring tanks for. From someone that has a tank of every class and has tanked vHM dungeons with them, vHM trials, and PvP with them all, there are clear imbalance issues that need to be addressed == NB's need A LOT of love in the tanking department and Templars need a decent health based self heal (they have actually gotten several other changes over the last year to help them in tanking that they've needed).
^This3 -
Iron_Blurr✭✭✭✭These comments actually disgust me. OP creates a thread about a very valid problem with end game trial tanking on a templar and a bunch of dps and other people who clearly have no experience with end game tanking come in and try to shut it down.
As a tank you DO NOT have high spell or weapon damage. That is why tanks need a % based heal.
Dk has a % of missing health heal with igneous for major mending and their heal can crit.
The other classes(except templar) have heals based on max hp but either their heals cant crit or they have no easy access to major mending.
Templar has niether.
You can try and use vampire drain as a crutch but you can not heal while blocking and that means for the hardest hits and most difficult situations, you have to take 50%more damage just to channel a heal.
My suggestion would be to make the healing ritual morph hasty prair a %based heal. Something like making it heal 25-30% of your max health over 2-3 seconds would fit nicely with the rest of the templars kit. This change would bring them more in line with all the other tanks kits. This change would also have the benefit of not affecting templar healers, magplar dps or stamplar dps. As it is i can not think of any situation where spending 7300 mag to get minor expedition for 5 seconds would be useful. Even if someone wanted to use this for a speed buff on a templar, they would be better off using the psijic abilities race against time or channeled acceleration since they are cheaper and either last longer or are instant with a sprint cost reduction.
OP I 100% agree with you and think the lack of a reliable tank focused self heal is a big problem.
Side note: why is templar also the only class without access to major expedition? What about major sorcery? I guess it's not that big of a problem because mages guild and psijic order skills fill those gaps. It's just weird that nightblade gets 3 sources of major expedition but templar gets none.4 -
WAMB0✭✭✭Edit: nvm didnt notice how old the thread wasEdited by WAMB0 on February 5, 2020 2:01PM0
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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Sorc> Clannfear, Restraining Prison
Warden> Polar Wind and vines, Gripping Shards
DK> Igneous and dragon Blood, Talons
NB> Dark Cloak, Ice Blockade
Templar> 5,5k Honor the dead tooltips on 20k Magicka that can hit other player instead of yourself, Ice Blockade
Ice wall is not used for the same reason the rest of the skills you have on that list. Time freeze or bows bombard would be the skills you would use in place on temps and nb tanks. Wall is use for procing back bar enchantments, you can't rely on it to cc mobs.
Also all you are forgetting about deep thoughts, which is a flat heal, heals and gives resources back, pop sun sheild and go into deep thoughts to bring your health up, the major protection from the pysjic skill line will apply to sun sheild and keep you up longer and you get resources back.
nice tip now try this when tanking trial boss, you are dead body in half second after start chaneling ...
Adraria Argentum Draco - imperial Stamplar
Bevdyen Tus Ntxhuav - Orc Stamplar
Celestun Ira Dei- Imperial Tankplar
Halldis Rautt Höfuð- Nord Tankplar
Misawa Yoshike - Breton Healplar
Lae'ozhael - Dunmer Magplar1 -
MellowMagic✭✭✭✭Maybe one of the sun shield morphs could heal you for a percentage of your health over 6 seconds while the shield holds.Edited by MellowMagic on February 11, 2020 11:12PM1
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WAMB0✭✭✭My idea was to make the ritual not only scale with magicka+spelldmg or stamina+wp dmg but also with HP, depending on which one is highest.
Again I wouldnt want to sacrifice any of the morphs, but if the HP value is the highest then it could loose the AOE heal ability and just focus the healing onto the caster.
Or it interacts with the sun shield.
Together with an HP based shield this might work out.
None of the other skills really make sense in that context, except one morph of breath of life, but I'd not really want to loose either.
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