VaranisArano wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Removing CP in anyform is *** stupid idea....

The whole Veteran system failed because of it. Screaming out that old content is easy is so childish because its old content and pissing down roadblocks on newer player and people who create alts isn't fun either.

Craglorn is a prime example of this. You had your zone, where were you before they changed it?

Edit: I will tell you where in the newer content because you avoided those zones.

It's not just about old content, it is new content as well. Open world is pretty much balanced around not having CP anyway. It has to be so that new players can go into that content and enjoy it, be challenged by it, but not overwhelmed by it. For people with 810 cp it is trivial because they can 2 shot most of it. Open world for the most part should be about creating new areas to explore, developing the lore, running quest lines, and things of that nature. It should be balanced for new players so that they can experience that. If CP is removed from the open world aspect then veteran players also can do this content with the newer players and not trivialize it. Well, not by such a large degree anyway. They will still have better gear, and understand their characters capabilities better, but it will be much more in line with new players than it is now.

So...what's preventing experienced players who want that challenge from removing their Champion Points?

Nothing, really, except for the inconvenience of having to reset your CP whenever you want to do group content or CP PVP. Which ZOS could address (if they wanted to) with having slots to save CP layouts (though they seem to have no interest in doing so).

So if your desire for challenge outweighs that inconvenience, you can run around in overland content with no CP if you want.

Or you don't have to reset your cp and you can run through that new stuff like its nothing to the detriment of new players that are earnestly trying to complete that content. I'm not saying people do that with that intention, but it ends up happening. Let me ask you this, what content in open world pve do you feel you cannot complete without cp? Is there any? It is already tuned for new players without cp. Do you just want to burn through new content as fast as you can? I'm not sure what advantages there are to having cp in open world content. I see it as only trivializing that content? Where does it not do this?
If there are places, then how difficult is it for new players to complete this content without cp? Not speaking to you specifically, but rather in general what is the necessity for cp in open world content? Where is the content that can't be done without it, and how does that impact the new player experience?

With the old system when zones had mobs with various levels it could somewhat make sense as there was a progression to it, but now, with all mobs basically the same level that progression is gone. They make new content with the idea that new players can start right there rather than starting at the 3 beginner hubs. You can go anywhere open world now at any time while leveling. With a system like that in place, and in the name of balancing content for new players the only role for cp there is to trivialize it. We are not suppose to solo world bosses, again trivialization. I think cp has a place but it is in end game content, level 50 plus content, that is where it could be balanced exclusively with that content and make end game even better than it is. We earn cp post level 50, that is what it should be for.

I think the difference here is that while I'm content to let players choose what difficulty they want to play at with CP or without, you want to impose that No CP difficulty on everyone whether they want it or not.

I'm not a huge fan of that. I understand why that appeals to you, and why its the solution to your desire to make sure those max CP/high DPS players don't trivialize content, but taking away my choice doesn't appeal to me.

I leveled my first MagWarden with no CP doing Morrowind. Later, I leveled another MagWarden with CP. The difference in the ease of combat was pretty extreme. Leveling with CP was much forgiving, and I found that second MagWarden more enjoyable to quest with overall, even though I appreciated the No CP leveling experience for what it was.

I also - not going to lie here - do enjoy ripping through quest content with one of my dungeon ready DDs. She's my Dark Brotherhood Silencer, and so it makes sense that she's absolutely murderous when she meets quest bosses. Trivialization? Sure, but I've got other characters if I want a difficult experience OR I could just reset her to No CP. Of course, I started ripping through quest content as soon as I started doing 10 to 15k DPS, so I'm not sure that even setting her to No CP is actually going to fix her trivializing content. Oops!

So again, I'm not a fan of having No CP imposed on me. If I want to make that my choice, I can, right now.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

That's cool

Ranger209 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Oh, I'm aware that some players will complain that other players are running through killing everything.
A. That's dependent on DPS, not no CP. I started ripping through quest content at between 10 to 15k DPS, and that's entirely possible with No CP. I prefer to keep my CP, but removing it isnt actually going to fix the problem of higher DPS than quest content is designed for.

But with CP people can achieve 40k - 50k and even more dps tripling to quintupling the 10 to 15k. CP is not the only thing that makes this happen, it is in conjunction with uber trial gear that I also mentioned could be disallowed in open world pve, and only be usable in dungeon/trial atmosphere.

I propose a surefire solution: cap all overland content DPS at 7.5K.

Lots of people will hate it, but hey, you won't have to worry about anyone trivializing content ever again. And its a simple solution that will never have to change with the meta! One and done!

I obviously don't mean that seriously, but it would solve your issue with no edge cases. Like how one of my Stam Sorc's gets 25k DPS with Hunding's Rage and Spriggans, a crafted set and a dropped set.

So if you really want players restricted so they can't trivialize quest content, just KISS. Flat DPS cap.

I'll hate it. But it'll solve your problem.

I'm going to approach this from another angle as people are seeming to look at certain aspects of what I am proposing rather than looking at it holistically. The whole point of this thread is to find a way where progression is allowed without trivializing content. Currently there is a freeze on CP. They are trying to figure out what to do with it because they see it as having certain detrimental effects on the game with its contribution to power creep.

Progression is something that is important to any game. People need to feel that they are progressing, that their characters are becoming more powerful. Without this feeling the game becomes stale for many. Many games address this by adding levels, and new abilities that come with those levels. This game does not embrace that approach, and I for one like that fact. However, there still needs to be some progression which is where CP post level 50 comes into play. We need it, or something like it, that allows us to feel we are becoming more powerful. We need to be challenged with new, more difficult content as not to get bored. We need to acquire more powerful gear sets to feel we are progressing which adds to the power creep as well.

If we can compartmentalize power creep along with progression into one facet of the game, that being dungeons and trials, or what I consider end game pve, then maybe it can be viewed as a positive by ZOS rather than a negative. If they were to start handing out cp 30 an expansion again what would that do to open world pve in the next 5 years? That would be 600 more cp in 5 years. What would people do to open world pve with 1400 cp and 5 years worth of new, more powerful gear? It's not just about where it is at the moment, it is also about where it is going in the future. What will pvp be like at 1400cp with gear that turns today's cheese into tomorrow's wheeze? I have played games where 30,000 hp was a lot when the game debuted, but 10 years later people were sitting on 200,000 hp and soloing content that took 80 people to clear years before. It is my belief that ZOS is not interested in that type of game model.

The point I am trying to make and the issue I am trying to address is that there has to be a way to allow for progression without trivializing content. It is the death trap of many a game, and if not addressed properly can make much of the earlier created content obsolete. It's a shame in any game when years of hard work and content creation becomes obsolete due to the fact that it is way too easy, and an utterly worthless proposition to spend any time there. I think ZOS is doing their best to make sure this doesn't happen. it also makes it more difficult for new players to integrate with veterans when they are running through empty "starter zones" because no one that has been in the game for more than 6 months would even think of going back to these said "starter zones"

I'm not trying to nerf anybody, or everybody, or myself. I am trying to look at this realistically and find a way to incorporate in game systems in such a way that power creep, a.k.a. progression can be embraced rather than shunned by development to hold with their vision of what the game is supposed to be. I don't claim to know exactly what that vision is, but certain things can be ascertained by looking at the game over its life cycle to this point. Thank you for the feed back both positive and negative. Arguments against the OP allow me to dig deeper into the what and why of this post to better explain the proposition at hand.

Digiman wrote: »

itsfatbass wrote: »

Not sure how your post only got 1 agree OP but I have added mine to it. Great ideas but a pipe dream tbh. Zos doesn't exactly have a track record of doing things based on player feedback.

Actually they do and its because of terrible vocal minority suggestions.

Good thing this isnt one of them.

Why are pvpers still complaining about cp campaigns? Theres no cp campaigns, go play there instead of ruining other people's enjoyment. Its pretty clear that cp pvp is more popular than no cp pvp.

OP is just mad his no cp campaign is dead and wants people to suffer with him

SoLooney wrote: »

Why are pvpers still complaining about cp campaigns? Theres no cp campaigns, go play there instead of ruining other people's enjoyment. Its pretty clear that cp pvp is more popular than no cp pvp.

OP is just mad his no cp campaign is dead and wants people to suffer with him

I play cp only. I just believe that a better system geared specifically toward pvp could be developed and used instead of the CP system, something better and more appropriate for pvp and its progression.

The boon/bane I agree with. For example something you put earned pvp skill points into where one item might be bonus crit damage offset by crit resistance. You can put points into both but if you put points into one it makes the other worse. I believe a system that allows for twice as much boon as bane would be interesting in that you could max them both out but only receive 50% of the total value of both by each canceling half of the other out. Snare strength or duration applied and received is another example of 2 opposing boons that offset each other. There are tons that relate strongly to pvp that could be used.

Alucardo wrote: »

What's wrong with the current system. Like CP? Then play on Vivec/Shor. Like no CP? Then go to Sotha. Personally I prefer no cp as everyone is on the same playing field, and you have to think about your builds carefully - you can't just throw weapon damage on everything and expect to sustain.
But there are people who like running around like demi gods and 30 minute fights where nobody dies, so they play on the CP campaigns. Choices should not be taken away, especially when it's fine the way it is

Well ZOS has put CP on lock down pending investigating, and evaluating the entire system in regards to power creep, and what they want to do moving forward. So I guess there's that.