Progression, power creep, dungeons, open world, and pvp
Ranger209
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Allowing character progression without trivializing content is a very difficult thing to do, and one that ZOS seems to be trying to model this game after. I remember playing games like everquest where that shiny new content would come out and it would take a 50 man raid force to fight through tooth and nail to complete. Fast forward 3 years and people are soloing that very same content. It had become trivialized by player progression and power creep. Allowing players to progress and become more powerful has its down side, but what if it could be partitioned off so that it didn't have an impact on the entire game. What if this type of player progression could be utilized in very specific parts of the game, while not being used in others. I believe this game has most of the elements to do so already in the game, and it starts with CP.
Remove CP from the entire game except for group dungeon/trial content. Before all the CP pvp players get their grundies in a bundle, I too am an avid CP Vivec pvper and will get to how to address that down further. The other thing that needs to happen is that all of the stats that you gain from the first 300 points of CP need to be incorporated into the first 50 levels of leveling. Dungeons and trials are the end game pve progression, and this is the only area of the game where CP needs to have progressive influence. The way to do this is to have more than two tiers. The tiers would need CP entry level requirements. Tier 1, currently Normal, would have a 0 CP requirement. Tier 2 would be somewhere between the current normal and vet and have a 300 CP entry requirement. Tier 3, now veteran, would have a 600 CP requirement, tier 4 would have a 900 CP requirement. CP, only being used in dungeons and trials, would no longer need to be front loaded like it currently is. it could be a linear progression combined with ever increasingly more powerful gear that for this part of the game allows for the everquest type power creep without affecting the rest of the game. The ever increasingly more powerful gear could have modifiers that reduce it in open world or pvp areas by ever increasingly higher ratios, or only allowed to be worn in group areas. This type of progression is important to end game pve'ers.
More tiers could be added as CP max values increase to dictate that more tiers need to be added. Older dungeon/trial content could have those added to them as well. It could be as simple as adding to the hp and damage of mobs similar to how it is with normal and vet now, or additional mechanics could be added. Another approach to higher tiers could be to randomize when events take place in scripts so that some group of mobs that spawn when the boss hits 75% health now spawn somewhere between 65% and 85% so that they aren't as easily timed. There are numerous ways that advanced tiers could make the same content more difficult and challenging.
Open world would forever be balanced around no CP. Open world is a place for questing, and story telling, and discovery, and lore. It is now, and still can be a place where by and large you can go there with a level 20 character and not be overwhelmed by the content. Expansions that are added to the game for the open world experience do not need to get more difficult, they just need to provide something new story wise. A new place to go, and beautiful new areas to explore is all that is required here. This is the perfect place for telling the story that is Elder Scrolls. It is the perfect place for quest driven content that immerses the player within the Elder Scrolls world. It is a place for role playing and laid back leisurely adventures, and all of the little things that make MMORPG's great.
For pvp there would also now be no CP and only no CP. No balancing pvp around the two. Rather than using the CP system for character progression, which is just as important to every pvper as it is to every pveer, use the Alliance rank system as a way to allow for character progression. This would be done by acquiring AP in Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds, and Imperial City just as it is now in advancing through the ranks. However, additional ranks would now also grant players additional power. There are so many ways this could be done, but just to start out every rank could do something like grant the player 0.1% damage done, 0.1% damage mitigated, 0.1% healing done, 0.1% healing received, 0.2% to all stat regens, and things of this nature. It could be done where each level a player receives 5 weapon and spell damage as well as 40 stamina, magicka, and health. This could really be a topic of conversation all on its own, there are just so many things that could be done. PVP player progression is important, but it has to be a marginal gain in power. You can't have Grand Overlords being 3 times stronger than privates. In my mind 20% is enough of a progression that still allows for competitive play, so small continuous gains in power spread over 50 levels that ends up around the 20% mark seems ideal to allow progression and gain in character strength, while still maintaining the integrity and competitiveness of ESO pvp.
Doing something of this nature allows for character progression without trivializing any of the game's content. It allows players to watch their characters become more powerful, but always ensures that anywhere they go in the game can be a challenge without being overwhelming. There will always be a spot, or a tier that challenges them while allowing them to play the lower tier content with their friends who are newer to the game, as they still meet the entry requirements for the tiers beneath them as well as their current max entry required tier based on their individual CP. Balancing becomes more streamlined as now all pvp and open world content are no CP. Dungeons/trials are now balanced exclusively with CP, and this is the only area of the game that needs to be balanced around CP. It is done by adding increasingly difficult tiers to current and new content which allows the most hard core veterans the chance to revisit older content under new and more difficult circumstances. Maybe even see new twists on higher tiered gear drops from some of the old mainstay gear that also has become trivialized.
Edited by Ranger209 on March 5, 2019 3:55AM Remove CP from the entire game except for group dungeon/trial content. Before all the CP pvp players get their grundies in a bundle, I too am an avid CP Vivec pvper and will get to how to address that down further. The other thing that needs to happen is that all of the stats that you gain from the first 300 points of CP need to be incorporated into the first 50 levels of leveling. Dungeons and trials are the end game pve progression, and this is the only area of the game where CP needs to have progressive influence. The way to do this is to have more than two tiers. The tiers would need CP entry level requirements. Tier 1, currently Normal, would have a 0 CP requirement. Tier 2 would be somewhere between the current normal and vet and have a 300 CP entry requirement. Tier 3, now veteran, would have a 600 CP requirement, tier 4 would have a 900 CP requirement. CP, only being used in dungeons and trials, would no longer need to be front loaded like it currently is. it could be a linear progression combined with ever increasingly more powerful gear that for this part of the game allows for the everquest type power creep without affecting the rest of the game. The ever increasingly more powerful gear could have modifiers that reduce it in open world or pvp areas by ever increasingly higher ratios, or only allowed to be worn in group areas. This type of progression is important to end game pve'ers.
More tiers could be added as CP max values increase to dictate that more tiers need to be added. Older dungeon/trial content could have those added to them as well. It could be as simple as adding to the hp and damage of mobs similar to how it is with normal and vet now, or additional mechanics could be added. Another approach to higher tiers could be to randomize when events take place in scripts so that some group of mobs that spawn when the boss hits 75% health now spawn somewhere between 65% and 85% so that they aren't as easily timed. There are numerous ways that advanced tiers could make the same content more difficult and challenging.
Open world would forever be balanced around no CP. Open world is a place for questing, and story telling, and discovery, and lore. It is now, and still can be a place where by and large you can go there with a level 20 character and not be overwhelmed by the content. Expansions that are added to the game for the open world experience do not need to get more difficult, they just need to provide something new story wise. A new place to go, and beautiful new areas to explore is all that is required here. This is the perfect place for telling the story that is Elder Scrolls. It is the perfect place for quest driven content that immerses the player within the Elder Scrolls world. It is a place for role playing and laid back leisurely adventures, and all of the little things that make MMORPG's great.
For pvp there would also now be no CP and only no CP. No balancing pvp around the two. Rather than using the CP system for character progression, which is just as important to every pvper as it is to every pveer, use the Alliance rank system as a way to allow for character progression. This would be done by acquiring AP in Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds, and Imperial City just as it is now in advancing through the ranks. However, additional ranks would now also grant players additional power. There are so many ways this could be done, but just to start out every rank could do something like grant the player 0.1% damage done, 0.1% damage mitigated, 0.1% healing done, 0.1% healing received, 0.2% to all stat regens, and things of this nature. It could be done where each level a player receives 5 weapon and spell damage as well as 40 stamina, magicka, and health. This could really be a topic of conversation all on its own, there are just so many things that could be done. PVP player progression is important, but it has to be a marginal gain in power. You can't have Grand Overlords being 3 times stronger than privates. In my mind 20% is enough of a progression that still allows for competitive play, so small continuous gains in power spread over 50 levels that ends up around the 20% mark seems ideal to allow progression and gain in character strength, while still maintaining the integrity and competitiveness of ESO pvp.
Doing something of this nature allows for character progression without trivializing any of the game's content. It allows players to watch their characters become more powerful, but always ensures that anywhere they go in the game can be a challenge without being overwhelming. There will always be a spot, or a tier that challenges them while allowing them to play the lower tier content with their friends who are newer to the game, as they still meet the entry requirements for the tiers beneath them as well as their current max entry required tier based on their individual CP. Balancing becomes more streamlined as now all pvp and open world content are no CP. Dungeons/trials are now balanced exclusively with CP, and this is the only area of the game that needs to be balanced around CP. It is done by adding increasingly difficult tiers to current and new content which allows the most hard core veterans the chance to revisit older content under new and more difficult circumstances. Maybe even see new twists on higher tiered gear drops from some of the old mainstay gear that also has become trivialized.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭*looks at the relative popularity of Cyrodiil campaigns on PC/NA*
Yes, clearly the answer is to remove CP PVP and replace it with a system of flat buffs gained through an extreme grind.
No thanks. I prefer CP PVP. I have no interest in your system, which disincentivizes running alts in PVP and which removes a good deal of build variety currently present through placing CP. Moreover, to be blunt, I do not understand players who think it's just fine to ask for gameplay modes to be removed, especially when its clear that many players enjoy CP PVP.
In any case, this is a moot point unless ZOS walks back their longstanding commitment to balancing PVE and PVP together.12 -
Joxer61✭✭✭✭✭Sadly WOW did the same...40/25 man raids now can be solo'd…..so sad, those were good times!0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
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EQ1 ... hm ...
I recalled my guild used about 20 groups , around 120 raiders to handle this guy and we failed LOL
CP is good , why not ? I would rather request ZOS adjust the XP curve to gain CP other than remove CP .
Maybe 1 week casual dungeon play to reach full CP ?
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Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭PvP should be CP only.
new players can expect to die until they can match up the CP.
good news for alt players though, they only have to grind the CP once!
or they can stick to BG, where it doesn't make sense for 15-min fight to allow CP. hell, it's unbalanced enough as it is combining random PUG with pre-mades.............
don't like that idea?
that's why we have no-CP campaigns...August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber1 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭PvP should be CP only.
new players can expect to die until they can match up the CP.
good news for alt players though, they only have to grind the CP once!
or they can stick to BG, where it doesn't make sense for 15-min fight to allow CP. hell, it's unbalanced enough as it is combining random PUG with pre-mades.............
don't like that idea?
that's why we have no-CP campaigns...
Most builds at either extreme (Glass, Permablock) in this game only work because of CP.
If anything, PVP should be balanced at it's base with no-CP.vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PvP should be CP only.
new players can expect to die until they can match up the CP.
good news for alt players though, they only have to grind the CP once!
or they can stick to BG, where it doesn't make sense for 15-min fight to allow CP. hell, it's unbalanced enough as it is combining random PUG with pre-mades.............
don't like that idea?
that's why we have no-CP campaigns...
The problem with that is there are different CP categories to invest in depending on if you are doing PvE or PvE. And it's not reasonable to expect players to pay for a skill reset every time they want to jump into a battleground or do some Cyrodil.
That's the main reason I stick to none CP PvP. So until they change that I can't agree with your suggestion that PvP should be CP only.Edited by Jeremy on March 5, 2019 4:48PM0 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭PvP should be CP only.
new players can expect to die until they can match up the CP.
good news for alt players though, they only have to grind the CP once!
or they can stick to BG, where it doesn't make sense for 15-min fight to allow CP. hell, it's unbalanced enough as it is combining random PUG with pre-mades.............
don't like that idea?
that's why we have no-CP campaigns...
The problem with that is there are different CP categories to invest in depending on if you are doing PvE or PvE. And it's not reasonable to expect players to pay for a skill reset every time they want to jump into a battleground or do some Cyrodil.
That's the main reason I stick to none CP PvP. So until they change that I can't agree with your suggestion that PvP should be CP only.
exactly. thats why i disagree with OP to keep PvP to no-CP only.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »*looks at the relative popularity of Cyrodiil campaigns on PC/NA*
Yes, clearly the answer is to remove CP PVP and replace it with a system of flat buffs gained through an extreme grind.
No thanks. I prefer CP PVP. I have no interest in your system, which disincentivizes running alts in PVP and which removes a good deal of build variety currently present through placing CP. Moreover, to be blunt, I do not understand players who think it's just fine to ask for gameplay modes to be removed, especially when its clear that many players enjoy CP PVP.
In any case, this is a moot point unless ZOS walks back their longstanding commitment to balancing PVE and PVP together.
You're assuming that the Alliance rank system has to stay per character rather than be per account like CP is. That is not necessarily the case. it could also be account wide. Step outside the box for a minute and don't compare things to how they work currently, but to how they could be adapted to work in better, more diverse ways. Again as stated above the mentioned ways to create character progression illustrated were very simple, think beyond them.
As far as replacing CP with a system of flat buffs gained through an extreme grind, isn't that what the CP system already is? So we are exchanging it for a different grind, one that many pvpers have already completed or are well into that is PVP specific. If the Alliance rank system were to be made account wide it would be no more of a grind than CP itself, well to a degree. But this could be adjusted as well.
As far as the flat values go, advancement could go a different way all together where maybe you gain 5 points per level to spend in a similar type tree as CP, but with things tailored strictly to PvP. Maybe every 10 levels you get to choose a special buff from several to reduce snare effectiveness by 20%, or increase CC immunity by 20%, or increase speed by 5%, or add 1 second to cloak time, or dozens of other specific boons that make sense for PvP.
As I said twice above this could be a topic of conversation all on its own, but it is incorporated into a system that is meant to allow for progression across the various types of gameplay, while still keeping older content meaningful and fun as well as keeping PVP as balanced as can be while still allowing for a sense of progression and accomplishment in that genre.0 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭So for the pvp audience let me pose the question as the CP/No CP debate is one of the most polarizing. What is it about the CP system that makes you strongly prefer playing with CP or without CP. This question does not pertain to population demographics are any other ancillary reason for that preference. Specifically, what is it about the CP system itself that drives you toward, or away from CP pvp?1
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Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭The more I think about this the more I like it. As an example let me ask how will dragons be implemented? I assume, and may be wrong, that they will be open world mobs and not at the end of dungeons and trials, but possibly both, Cyrodiil....?
In open world you will have 810 cp people along with 10 cp people and level 20 people. How will these creatures be balanced for all of those various people? If it is balanced around cp then those lacking cp or of lower level I would assume would struggle. If it is balanced around them I would assume that 810 cp people would trivialize them like they do open world boss mobs now. Removing cp from open world content allow that content to be balanced for all regardless of cp.
Utilize cp in dungeons/trials where they can be balanced around cp and where cp can be balanced around them.
Use the Alliance Rank System as a progression system for pvp that can still allow for a progressive feeling developing a more powerful pvp character, but tone it back so that the difference between maxed out pvp toon and newbie pvp toon is much smaller than what the cp system currently allows for.0 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No thanks
We have options in game now for a reason
If you prefer no CP, awesome, go play on the no CP campaign. That's what it is there for.
PLEASE STOP trying to remove what other people prefer to play, just because you don't like it. Others like CP PvP, let them enjoy what they like.
For overland, I would prefer a toggle to allow people to shut their CP off if they want without having to pay to repec itBeta tester November 20130 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭You would rather play with cp than have a pvp specific progression system earned through pvping?Edited by Ranger209 on March 21, 2019 12:26AM0
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Digiman✭✭✭✭✭Removing CP in anyform is *** stupid idea....
The whole Veteran system failed because of it. Screaming out that old content is easy is so childish because its old content and pissing down roadblocks on newer player and people who create alts isn't fun either.
Craglorn is a prime example of this. You had your zone, where were you before they changed it?
Edit: I will tell you where in the newer content because you avoided those zones.Edited by Digiman on March 21, 2019 9:55AM1 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭Removing CP in anyform is *** stupid idea....
The whole Veteran system failed because of it. Screaming out that old content is easy is so childish because its old content and pissing down roadblocks on newer player and people who create alts isn't fun either.
Craglorn is a prime example of this. You had your zone, where were you before they changed it?
Edit: I will tell you where in the newer content because you avoided those zones.
It's not just about old content, it is new content as well. Open world is pretty much balanced around not having CP anyway. It has to be so that new players can go into that content and enjoy it, be challenged by it, but not overwhelmed by it. For people with 810 cp it is trivial because they can 2 shot most of it. Open world for the most part should be about creating new areas to explore, developing the lore, running quest lines, and things of that nature. It should be balanced for new players so that they can experience that. If CP is removed from the open world aspect then veteran players also can do this content with the newer players and not trivialize it. Well, not by such a large degree anyway. They will still have better gear, and understand their characters capabilities better, but it will be much more in line with new players than it is now.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Removing CP in anyform is *** stupid idea....
The whole Veteran system failed because of it. Screaming out that old content is easy is so childish because its old content and pissing down roadblocks on newer player and people who create alts isn't fun either.
Craglorn is a prime example of this. You had your zone, where were you before they changed it?
Edit: I will tell you where in the newer content because you avoided those zones.
It's not just about old content, it is new content as well. Open world is pretty much balanced around not having CP anyway. It has to be so that new players can go into that content and enjoy it, be challenged by it, but not overwhelmed by it. For people with 810 cp it is trivial because they can 2 shot most of it. Open world for the most part should be about creating new areas to explore, developing the lore, running quest lines, and things of that nature. It should be balanced for new players so that they can experience that. If CP is removed from the open world aspect then veteran players also can do this content with the newer players and not trivialize it. Well, not by such a large degree anyway. They will still have better gear, and understand their characters capabilities better, but it will be much more in line with new players than it is now.
So...what's preventing experienced players who want that challenge from removing their Champion Points?
Nothing, really, except for the inconvenience of having to reset your CP whenever you want to do group content or CP PVP. Which ZOS could address (if they wanted to) with having slots to save CP layouts (though they seem to have no interest in doing so).
So if your desire for challenge outweighs that inconvenience, you can run around in overland content with no CP if you want.Edited by VaranisArano on March 21, 2019 11:18PM1 -
Ranger209✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Removing CP in anyform is *** stupid idea....
The whole Veteran system failed because of it. Screaming out that old content is easy is so childish because its old content and pissing down roadblocks on newer player and people who create alts isn't fun either.
Craglorn is a prime example of this. You had your zone, where were you before they changed it?
Edit: I will tell you where in the newer content because you avoided those zones.
It's not just about old content, it is new content as well. Open world is pretty much balanced around not having CP anyway. It has to be so that new players can go into that content and enjoy it, be challenged by it, but not overwhelmed by it. For people with 810 cp it is trivial because they can 2 shot most of it. Open world for the most part should be about creating new areas to explore, developing the lore, running quest lines, and things of that nature. It should be balanced for new players so that they can experience that. If CP is removed from the open world aspect then veteran players also can do this content with the newer players and not trivialize it. Well, not by such a large degree anyway. They will still have better gear, and understand their characters capabilities better, but it will be much more in line with new players than it is now.
So...what's preventing experienced players who want that challenge from removing their Champion Points?
Nothing, really, except for the inconvenience of having to reset your CP whenever you want to do group content or CP PVP. Which ZOS could address (if they wanted to) with having slots to save CP layouts (though they seem to have no interest in doing so).
So if your desire for challenge outweighs that inconvenience, you can run around in overland content with no CP if you want.
Or you don't have to reset your cp and you can run through that new stuff like its nothing to the detriment of new players that are earnestly trying to complete that content. I'm not saying people do that with that intention, but it ends up happening. Let me ask you this, what content in open world pve do you feel you cannot complete without cp? Is there any? It is already tuned for new players without cp. Do you just want to burn through new content as fast as you can? I'm not sure what advantages there are to having cp in open world content. I see it as only trivializing that content? Where does it not do this?
If there are places, then how difficult is it for new players to complete this content without cp? Not speaking to you specifically, but rather in general what is the necessity for cp in open world content? Where is the content that can't be done without it, and how does that impact the new player experience?
With the old system when zones had mobs with various levels it could somewhat make sense as there was a progression to it, but now, with all mobs basically the same level that progression is gone. They make new content with the idea that new players can start right there rather than starting at the 3 beginner hubs. You can go anywhere open world now at any time while leveling. With a system like that in place, and in the name of balancing content for new players the only role for cp there is to trivialize it. We are not suppose to solo world bosses, again trivialization. I think cp has a place but it is in end game content, level 50 plus content, that is where it could be balanced exclusively with that content and make end game even better than it is. We earn cp post level 50, that is what it should be for.Edited by Ranger209 on March 21, 2019 11:57PM0 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »So...what's preventing experienced players who want that challenge from removing their Champion Points?
The biggest overland challenge is finding a mob that lives more than five seconds.
I've just recently started levelling a character. I cheated a bit and crafted blue level 4 armor, 2H/3M/2L just to level all armor skill lines before deciding what she'll wear later. No enchantments on armor, no food, no attribute points, and only 10 green CP (roll-dodge cost reduction?) for that harvesting double-yield perk. I use whatever weapon I find along the way. With that and when I was lucky enough to find an abandoned dark anchor, I could solo it before even unlocking an ultimate. It took some time, but I don't think I should've been able to. Most often, however, several CP capped players show up and the final boss vaporizes the second it hits the ground. Isn't that dumb?
Yesterday I was collecting skyshards in Alik'r Desert. Laugh at me if you will... I died a little when I saw that herd charging to an anchor and off moments later. Is that how people "play" this game nowadays? It's remarkably similar to how bots "played" back in 2014 when they farmed delve bosses, except they only camped one spot. Have the bots improved, or have the players lost their minds?
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws0 -
Digiman✭✭✭✭✭Removing CP in anyform is *** stupid idea....
The whole Veteran system failed because of it. Screaming out that old content is easy is so childish because its old content and pissing down roadblocks on newer player and people who create alts isn't fun either.
Craglorn is a prime example of this. You had your zone, where were you before they changed it?
Edit: I will tell you where in the newer content because you avoided those zones.
It's not just about old content, it is new content as well. Open world is pretty much balanced around not having CP anyway. It has to be so that new players can go into that content and enjoy it, be challenged by it, but not overwhelmed by it. For people with 810 cp it is trivial because they can 2 shot most of it. Open world for the most part should be about creating new areas to explore, developing the lore, running quest lines, and things of that nature. It should be balanced for new players so that they can experience that. If CP is removed from the open world aspect then veteran players also can do this content with the newer players and not trivialize it. Well, not by such a large degree anyway. They will still have better gear, and understand their characters capabilities better, but it will be much more in line with new players than it is now.
I understand where your coming from.... world bosses being trivalised by larger CP players isn't fun... But so was zerging back in those days... Remember the boss camping?
I guess this is the flaw of an account wide progression system compared to a geared one... Its not as grindy but difficulty falls by the way side.
As for side swiping content even on my alts I still have to becareful of mechanics or I die quickly to simple trash when I do quests.
If you ask me about it, its not power creep thats the problem but engagement. The content isn't engaging as it is when your newer to this.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »So...what's preventing experienced players who want that challenge from removing their Champion Points?
The biggest overland challenge is finding a mob that lives more than five seconds.
I've just recently started levelling a character. I cheated a bit and crafted blue level 4 armor, 2H/3M/2L just to level all armor skill lines before deciding what she'll wear later. No enchantments on armor, no food, no attribute points, and only 10 green CP (roll-dodge cost reduction?) for that harvesting double-yield perk. I use whatever weapon I find along the way. With that and when I was lucky enough to find an abandoned dark anchor, I could solo it before even unlocking an ultimate. It took some time, but I don't think I should've been able to. Most often, however, several CP capped players show up and the final boss vaporizes the second it hits the ground. Isn't that dumb?
Yesterday I was collecting skyshards in Alik'r Desert. Laugh at me if you will... I died a little when I saw that herd charging to an anchor and off moments later. Is that how people "play" this game nowadays? It's remarkably similar to how bots "played" back in 2014 when they farmed delve bosses, except they only camped one spot. Have the bots improved, or have the players lost their minds?
Players leveling at the Alikr Dolmens are typically experienced players leveling alts that they want to use for end-game content. Its a relatively fast, easy way to level for people who have already done the quests on other characters and really just want to hit level 50 and get their CP.
I enjoyed leveling new characters with no CP in both Morrowind and Summerset. New classes, even, since Morrowind was my warden and in Summerset I finally leveled my first nightblade past level 5. Its hard for me to replicate the "new player experience" since I know how to play, but I still enjoyed it. I didn't feel terribly challenged by regular mobs...but I certainly was challenged by Delve and Quest bosses. Those took learning to play my class and follow mechanics.
Personally, that was about the right level of challenge. I dislike when regular enemies are a slog, but I appreciated that bosses made me pause and consider my tactics. In Morrowind, I usually died once before I figured out how i was doing to kill the boss.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Removing CP in anyform is *** stupid idea....
The whole Veteran system failed because of it. Screaming out that old content is easy is so childish because its old content and pissing down roadblocks on newer player and people who create alts isn't fun either.
Craglorn is a prime example of this. You had your zone, where were you before they changed it?
Edit: I will tell you where in the newer content because you avoided those zones.
It's not just about old content, it is new content as well. Open world is pretty much balanced around not having CP anyway. It has to be so that new players can go into that content and enjoy it, be challenged by it, but not overwhelmed by it. For people with 810 cp it is trivial because they can 2 shot most of it. Open world for the most part should be about creating new areas to explore, developing the lore, running quest lines, and things of that nature. It should be balanced for new players so that they can experience that. If CP is removed from the open world aspect then veteran players also can do this content with the newer players and not trivialize it. Well, not by such a large degree anyway. They will still have better gear, and understand their characters capabilities better, but it will be much more in line with new players than it is now.
So...what's preventing experienced players who want that challenge from removing their Champion Points?
Nothing, really, except for the inconvenience of having to reset your CP whenever you want to do group content or CP PVP. Which ZOS could address (if they wanted to) with having slots to save CP layouts (though they seem to have no interest in doing so).
So if your desire for challenge outweighs that inconvenience, you can run around in overland content with no CP if you want.
Or you don't have to reset your cp and you can run through that new stuff like its nothing to the detriment of new players that are earnestly trying to complete that content. I'm not saying people do that with that intention, but it ends up happening. Let me ask you this, what content in open world pve do you feel you cannot complete without cp? Is there any? It is already tuned for new players without cp. Do you just want to burn through new content as fast as you can? I'm not sure what advantages there are to having cp in open world content. I see it as only trivializing that content? Where does it not do this?
If there are places, then how difficult is it for new players to complete this content without cp? Not speaking to you specifically, but rather in general what is the necessity for cp in open world content? Where is the content that can't be done without it, and how does that impact the new player experience?
With the old system when zones had mobs with various levels it could somewhat make sense as there was a progression to it, but now, with all mobs basically the same level that progression is gone. They make new content with the idea that new players can start right there rather than starting at the 3 beginner hubs. You can go anywhere open world now at any time while leveling. With a system like that in place, and in the name of balancing content for new players the only role for cp there is to trivialize it. We are not suppose to solo world bosses, again trivialization. I think cp has a place but it is in end game content, level 50 plus content, that is where it could be balanced exclusively with that content and make end game even better than it is. We earn cp post level 50, that is what it should be for.
I think the difference here is that while I'm content to let players choose what difficulty they want to play at with CP or without, you want to impose that No CP difficulty on everyone whether they want it or not.
I'm not a huge fan of that. I understand why that appeals to you, and why its the solution to your desire to make sure those max CP/high DPS players don't trivialize content, but taking away my choice doesn't appeal to me.
I leveled my first MagWarden with no CP doing Morrowind. Later, I leveled another MagWarden with CP. The difference in the ease of combat was pretty extreme. Leveling with CP was much forgiving, and I found that second MagWarden more enjoyable to quest with overall, even though I appreciated the No CP leveling experience for what it was.
I also - not going to lie here - do enjoy ripping through quest content with one of my dungeon ready DDs. She's my Dark Brotherhood Silencer, and so it makes sense that she's absolutely murderous when she meets quest bosses. Trivialization? Sure, but I've got other characters if I want a difficult experience OR I could just reset her to No CP. Of course, I started ripping through quest content as soon as I started doing 10 to 15k DPS, so I'm not sure that even setting her to No CP is actually going to fix her trivializing content. Oops!
So again, I'm not a fan of having No CP imposed on me. If I want to make that my choice, I can, right now.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sadly WOW did the same...40/25 man raids now can be solo'd…..so sad, those were good times!
Iv's never once heard anyone complaining about it, if anything they like soloing raids because it allows them to see them again and get mounts.
And wow is based on a different progression system compared to eso, in wow, each expansion is a very big jump, personally i like it, but i also like eso approach, but it needs to be polished, and content needs to be balanced around the power increase that cp gives you.
Why do you think nobody complained about m dungeon being useless after early expansion in legion or bfa? That nobody complained about power creep about current content? Even though there was a system very similar to cp? Because wow was balanced around it, you could make an argument for raids being useless 1 tier after, but honestly, that's just how wow works, i would like it if raids has some kind of m+ system, but it's their call, it would also bring some other problems, because now raids would have to be balanced around the entire expansion, just like m+, so raids wouldn't get incrementally more difficult, you would make them more difficult by adding your key, and making it a +10 or 15 etc, and i don't think that's what they want to do with raids, although it could be good.
So here's the solution, make a new game mode that gets incrementally more difficult like m+, as you get more powerful, this way, power creep at least in pve would be gone, and cp, gear progression could continue as it would normally do without worry.
Nerfs are not good in the long run, for example, i didn;t like the fact that this patch we didn;t get the usual 10 cp for each tree, it's a quick cop out for a problem they should have already solved.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Provide options, not nerfs or removing features, this is the big problem i have with the "remove cp" crowd, it's quite a shortsighted view of things.
It's the easiest thing to do, but also the shittiest.0 -
itsfatbass✭✭✭✭✭Not sure how your post only got 1 agree OP but I have added mine to it. Great ideas but a pipe dream tbh. Zos doesn't exactly have a track record of doing things based on player feedback.~PC/NA~ Magblade, Tankanist, Healplar, Stamcro, Oakensorc, Healden, Tanknight ~PLUR~0 -
Digiman✭✭✭✭✭itsfatbass wrote: »Not sure how your post only got 1 agree OP but I have added mine to it. Great ideas but a pipe dream tbh. Zos doesn't exactly have a track record of doing things based on player feedback.
Actually they do and its because of terrible vocal minority suggestions.0 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I think the difference here is that while I'm content to let players choose what difficulty they want to play at with CP or without, you want to impose that No CP difficulty on everyone whether they want it or not.
I'm not a huge fan of that. I understand why that appeals to you, and why its the solution to your desire to make sure those max CP/high DPS players don't trivialize content, but taking away my choice doesn't appeal to me.
Sounds sensible, but therein lies the devil. It's a multiplayer game, one player's choice may limit the options of another. When flocks of people choose to plunder a zone, there's no way to pump the difficulty up. As long as there are incentives to trivialize, people will, and ruin it for others.
Way back before CP, when zones had designated levels, there were no incentives for high-level players to go in low-level zones and steamroll everything, except for the odd one out hunting achievements. Some players hated that the game basically told them what to do when (I myself stopped questing when I out-levelled Rivenspire by gaining too much exp in Cyrodiil). But it also prevented trivializing the content. If you found something too difficult, you could come back a few levels later and still get the loot. Facerolling it 10 levels above was not rewarded.
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I think the difference here is that while I'm content to let players choose what difficulty they want to play at with CP or without, you want to impose that No CP difficulty on everyone whether they want it or not.
I'm not a huge fan of that. I understand why that appeals to you, and why its the solution to your desire to make sure those max CP/high DPS players don't trivialize content, but taking away my choice doesn't appeal to me.
Sounds sensible, but therein lies the devil. It's a multiplayer game, one player's choice may limit the options of another. When flocks of people choose to plunder a zone, there's no way to pump the difficulty up. As long as there are incentives to trivialize, people will, and ruin it for others.
Way back before CP, when zones had designated levels, there were no incentives for high-level players to go in low-level zones and steamroll everything, except for the odd one out hunting achievements. Some players hated that the game basically told them what to do when (I myself stopped questing when I out-levelled Rivenspire by gaining too much exp in Cyrodiil). But it also prevented trivializing the content. If you found something too difficult, you could come back a few levels later and still get the loot. Facerolling it 10 levels above was not rewarded.
I disagree that players having the freedom to quest as they choose, whether with No CP or high enough DPS to trivialize content, is a bad thing. Player choice, even if it restricts the ability of some players to quest in privacy or full immersion, is a good thing.
Oh, I'm aware that some players will complain that other players are running through killing everything.
A. That's dependent on DPS, not no CP. I started ripping through quest content at between 10 to 15k DPS, and that's entirely possible with No CP. I prefer to keep my CP, but removing it isnt actually going to fix the problem of higher DPS than quest content is designed for.
B. Players being annoyed by other players messing with their quests is going to happen as long as quests and delves aren't instanced. So if "ruining" the experience is the problem, the actual solution is even more intensive than just uping the difficulty. This isn't a single player game, and other players will always be around to ruin some players' immersion unless ZOS takes steps to change that with instances.
This bit:
"It's a multiplayer game, one player's choice may limit the options of another."
Yeah, that's the nature of the beast, isn't it? Its a multiplayer game, and one that currently says "Everyone can quest at any level, and any level of DPS. No, you don't get any expectation of privacy because everyone's ability to quest how they please is more important than your immersion. If you want a challenge, you can hinder yourself how you choose. You can't dictate to others how they play."
If I wanted privacy and full immersive questing experience - I mean no offense here - I'd play Skyrim or Morrowind again. There, I've got the whole world to myself with no other players to "limit my options."
In ESO after One Tamriel, we now all play in more or less the same game world with a wide variety of playstyles, builds, DPS, and competence at the game. I don't think that's a bad thing! While it may get annoying at times when dealing with other players, its also the nature of the beast, so I shrug, move on, and enjoy the freedom it gives me to quest on everything from my dungeon tank, my dungeon DD, and my brand new characters with or without CP according to what I desire any given day.1 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You would rather play with cp than have a pvp specific progression system earned through pvping?
Yes, I would rather play with CP than a pvp progressive system you are proposing. Getting to max CP is already enough of a progression for new players. And once you have enough CP, any character you level has a decent chance once its geared up and has enough skill points, both of which are also progression.
Your suggestion is VERY alt unfriendly for pvp given how slow ranking up becomes after around rank 30.
As for open world pve, I like the fact that my character can melt mobs in areas. If I am questing, I'm there for the quest and the story, not a 15 minute fight per mob between quest objectives.
If I see lowbies questing, I'll leave the area or watch them from a distance and only help out if the are stuggling or just with a couple light attacks to give them a hand.
If I want more challenge, I go solo a normal dungeon, join a vet trial, vet dungeon or go work on VMA or pvp.Edited by Katahdin on March 22, 2019 2:33PMBeta tester November 20130 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I disagree that players having the freedom to quest as they choose, whether with No CP or high enough DPS to trivialize content, is a bad thing.
I did not say that the freedom to quest wherever they please is a bad thing. What I see as a bad thing is the huge disparity in power between players in one area. Obviously that's not just CPs fault, it's a combination of many design blunders done since 2015.VaranisArano wrote: »Player choice, even if it restricts the ability of some players to quest in privacy or full immersion, is a good thing.
I'll skip over the privacy part, as one should not expect that from overland multiplayer content.
As for immersion... that's one of the things ESO used to be sold on. Maybe I'm obsessed with dark anchors, because they were epic back in the day. More people showed up, more havoc ensued; and bosses were bossy. Now players can boost their damage so high they obliterate a boss in seconds. That's not a good thing, that's terrible design.VaranisArano wrote: »Oh, I'm aware that some players will complain that other players are running through killing everything.
A. That's dependent on DPS, not no CP. I started ripping through quest content at between 10 to 15k DPS, and that's entirely possible with No CP. I prefer to keep my CP, but removing it isnt actually going to fix the problem of higher DPS than quest content is designed for.
Agreed. CP is just one, not even the most impactful, part of the problem, but a part nonetheless.VaranisArano wrote: »B. Players being annoyed by other players messing with their quests is going to happen as long as quests and delves aren't instanced. So if "ruining" the experience is the problem, the actual solution is even more intensive than just uping the difficulty. This isn't a single player game, and other players will always be around to ruin some players' immersion unless ZOS takes steps to change that with instances.
There are enough instanced areas in the game already. The way to make overland content somewhat immersive is to limit the power disparity among players in one area. And I'd say in the game as a whole. Limits are not always bad.VaranisArano wrote: »This bit:
"It's a multiplayer game, one player's choice may limit the options of another."
Yeah, that's the nature of the beast, isn't it? Its a multiplayer game, and one that currently says "Everyone can quest at any level, and any level of DPS. No, you don't get any expectation of privacy because everyone's ability to quest how they please is more important than your immersion. If you want a challenge, you can hinder yourself how you choose. You can't dictate to others how they play."
What you're saying has nothing to do with the topic at hand, power creep. When I say "you shouldn't be able to kill a boss faster than a mudcrab", I'm not dictating how others should play, I'm telling whoever made the decision to dump soft caps that it was a terrible one.
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭So for the pvp audience let me pose the question as the CP/No CP debate is one of the most polarizing. What is it about the CP system that makes you strongly prefer playing with CP or without CP. This question does not pertain to population demographics are any other ancillary reason for that preference. Specifically, what is it about the CP system itself that drives you toward, or away from CP pvp?
I did not read any subsequent posts, so if this has been answered I apologize. The reason that I choose CP over non-CP is simply because of the way ZOS has derailed all positive attributes of character progression in past patches.
For example, number 1 is sustain. One simply does not walk into Mordor with No CP points into sustain.
Open world PVP doesn't always guaruntee group utility like Trials/Dungeons, or even BG's. I belong to multiple PVP Guilds, but I still solo 90% of the time...
Number 2, not dying. I main a Stamplar and well (aside for horrible sustain) defense on a Stamplar is incredibly unforgiving...CP gives me mitigation that I cannot build for with sets, unless I am giving up either sustain or damage in order to receive defense.
If there were REAL class rebalances that updated toolkits and passives to more closely be on par with how fluid NB toolkits are (I am not saying make all classes the same so don't even start people) AND there was some sort of account-wide progression tied to Alliance Rank, I would be fine with changes like this.1