srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?

Nope, try again.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.

no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!

Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.

Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.

Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.

I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.

*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.

I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.

The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.

If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.

"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.

The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.

*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.

I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.

I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.

If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?

I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".

Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?

Okay, so first: I don't suggest you have to grind out every last skyshard on every character. Absolutely not. In my first post I even wrote that I wouldn't want skyshards to be account bound since that could make new characters too op, but when someone said it might be a possibility to lock them behind reaching level 50, that sounded like a good idea to me. I just wrote to someone else that I look at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to play, so maybe keep that in mind.

Anyway, my main concern were always the lorebooks, because to me they're one of the most tedious parts of the whole game. And yes, you're right, it would most certainly be a bad idea to unlock the skill line on new characters right away (I also said that before). I can't quite tell you what I'd do to counter that if you still want to keep the lorebooks, that's an issue, yes. Maybe really make the progress of the quest line itself not dependent on the progress of lorebooks but something else and unlock the skill line once you've completed the quests? Don't know, doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me either, and so, yeah, I can see how this would cause problems. But that still doesn't change the fact that the process of collecting stuff to further a skill line or to gain skill points is not exactly the pinnacle of innovation or the most fun thing I can imagine doing to level something up and is that not what this is actually about?

And also: Don't you think that it would, on the contrary, help the longevity of the game, if you could more easily access all kinds of stuff once you hit level 50 on your alts? For people like me who don't have that much time, it certainly would, since I could much more easily try all kinds of builds, races and classes out without knowing I'll have to run around collecting things again.

Ugh... no. It would be terrible for the longevity of the game. Main characters still exist and alts are nice side projects. If the focus is dwindled down solely to rushing to level cap then jumping into Trials, then you might as well go play WoW. That's how WoW is set up. Nothing to collect or work towards during the leveling process. Just a boring mad dash to end game "where the real game begins". Yuck. No. That would kill ESO.

Sorry, but I really can't see that, this is your opinion and yours alone, because obviously you do have a weird passion for collecting stuff for the 10th time. But how exactly would making these things accessible at a certain point for new toons shift the focus of the whole game solely to trials and other end-game content? Can't you still go and explore and quest at your leisure if you so please? Does anyone force you to do end-game stuff just because technically you have enough skill points at your disposal to do so? I really don't think so. So, pretty much, what this boils down to must be, that collecting stuff must be your hobby and you just want to do it on every alt. Alright, then. Let's just leave it at that because I really don't know what else to say to that.

Heh, I'm not sure who you're talking to. Literally nothing you just said had anything to do with what I said. Maybe we're talking to different people.

I'm pretty sure I said NOBODY NEEDS TO GRIND OUT SKYSHARDS ON ALTS BECAUSE YOU SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH SKILL POINTS TO DO END GAME CONTENT BY THE TIME YOU REACH MAX LEVEL.

But, you're stuck on the whole, "either they're account bound or I don't have any because there is no in-between" line of thinking, aren't you?

Honestly, if you are making it a point to grind skyshards in lieu of picking them up while doing the other stuff the game has to offer, because you have convinced yourself that you "have to have them for end game", then you deserve the frustration.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?

Nope, try again.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.

no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!

Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.

Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.

Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.

I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.

*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.

I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.

The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.

If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.

"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.

The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.

*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.

I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.

I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.

If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?

I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".

Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?

Not like applying 810cp to a level 3 is any better right? But my CP I grinded for it and I deserve to use it even on a level 3 toon....... That doesn't make leveling an alt easy right? 😉

I have said numerous times everything should be locked behind level 50. CP shouldn't work below 50, magebook, psijic order, and skyshards.

I can tell you now I enjoy playing tank and healer and they consume more skill points than a DPS because we need a lot of what if moves for different fights and so we don't overlap others of the same role. So I'd I wanted to make a new tank (currently have 8 toons) then I need to get them skyshards and gear because both support roles are expected to carry around lots of gear sets. So trust me when I say there is more to do in this game to get ready for endgame, so why are we needed to make it so grindy it makes players not want to redo boring tedious things like touching x item over and over.

It's not like we are asking to get every quest skill points just skyshards. That means people will still run dungeons, very dungeons, trials, pvp, regular quests.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?

Nope, try again.

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.

no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!

Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.

Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.

Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.

I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.

*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.

I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.

The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.

If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.

"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.

The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.

*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.

I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.

I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.

If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?

I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".

Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?

Okay, so first: I don't suggest you have to grind out every last skyshard on every character. Absolutely not. In my first post I even wrote that I wouldn't want skyshards to be account bound since that could make new characters too op, but when someone said it might be a possibility to lock them behind reaching level 50, that sounded like a good idea to me. I just wrote to someone else that I look at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to play, so maybe keep that in mind.

Anyway, my main concern were always the lorebooks, because to me they're one of the most tedious parts of the whole game. And yes, you're right, it would most certainly be a bad idea to unlock the skill line on new characters right away (I also said that before). I can't quite tell you what I'd do to counter that if you still want to keep the lorebooks, that's an issue, yes. Maybe really make the progress of the quest line itself not dependent on the progress of lorebooks but something else and unlock the skill line once you've completed the quests? Don't know, doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me either, and so, yeah, I can see how this would cause problems. But that still doesn't change the fact that the process of collecting stuff to further a skill line or to gain skill points is not exactly the pinnacle of innovation or the most fun thing I can imagine doing to level something up and is that not what this is actually about?

And also: Don't you think that it would, on the contrary, help the longevity of the game, if you could more easily access all kinds of stuff once you hit level 50 on your alts? For people like me who don't have that much time, it certainly would, since I could much more easily try all kinds of builds, races and classes out without knowing I'll have to run around collecting things again.

Ugh... no. It would be terrible for the longevity of the game. Main characters still exist and alts are nice side projects. If the focus is dwindled down solely to rushing to level cap then jumping into Trials, then you might as well go play WoW. That's how WoW is set up. Nothing to collect or work towards during the leveling process. Just a boring mad dash to end game "where the real game begins". Yuck. No. That would kill ESO.

Sorry, but I really can't see that, this is your opinion and yours alone, because obviously you do have a weird passion for collecting stuff for the 10th time. But how exactly would making these things accessible at a certain point for new toons shift the focus of the whole game solely to trials and other end-game content? Can't you still go and explore and quest at your leisure if you so please? Does anyone force you to do end-game stuff just because technically you have enough skill points at your disposal to do so? I really don't think so. So, pretty much, what this boils down to must be, that collecting stuff must be your hobby and you just want to do it on every alt. Alright, then. Let's just leave it at that because I really don't know what else to say to that.

Heh, I'm not sure who you're talking to. Literally nothing you just said had anything to do with what I said. Maybe we're talking to different people.

I'm pretty sure I said NOBODY NEEDS TO GRIND OUT SKYSHARDS ON ALTS BECAUSE YOU SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH SKILL POINTS TO DO END GAME CONTENT BY THE TIME YOU REACH MAX LEVEL.

But, you're stuck on the whole, "either they're account bound or I don't have any because there is no in-between" line of thinking, aren't you?

Honestly, if you are making it a point to grind skyshards in lieu of picking them up while doing the other stuff the game has to offer, because you have convinced yourself that you "have to have them for end game", then you deserve the frustration.

*lol* If this discussion has reached the point where you feel like you have to shout at me to make yourself heard, then we really should end this here, it doesn't lead to anything. And honestly, if you can't connect that post I made before to the one I answered to, I'm not even sure what to think anymore. Sorry, but this is obviously futile, so please go and bother someone else, because judging by the way you reacted right now it must be you who is frustrated and not me.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and just to make this absolutely clear, because obviously you're not listening to me: I said "stuff" in my post, not skyshards. It is you who keeps going on and on about the skyshards when I have clearly said for more than one time that my main concern are the lorebooks. But so much for people not reacting to what is actually being said.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

It's not enough to have CP be account wide? That was specifically designed to make the game more alt friendly as a player reward for playing the game.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points are specific to a character. If EVERYTHING that SOMEONE thinks is boring is made account wide, then why bother with a leveling system?

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why bother with progression systems at all?

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Just make a lobby based adventure game with character archetypes like Team Fortress 2.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wonder why they dont make a PvE version of Overwatch? Maybe because it would be boring as hell?

srfrogg23 wrote: »

This is an RPG.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Progression systems and character specialization are important aspects of the RPG genre.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points, skyshards, lorebooks, and yes, some grinding are the ways that this game facilitates those mechanisms.

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

You really don't need that many skill points on your alts anyway, assuming your main is also your crafter and has the majority of skill points.

This is where you err. Some of us are leveling crafting on everyone, especially for the hirelings and writs. You need a LOT of skillpoints for that.

Looking for SkyShards the 10th time gets extremely old. At least add in the same tools PC players have with addons. You may not care, but some of us do.

It's not better over here. I mean, yeah, I can make a bee line to any skyshard in the game (that isn't quest gated), but you still need to get out there and go collect each one. By hand, which still takes a lot of time.

Incidentally, "Writs Only" is 92 skill points.

I'm not sure where you're getting 92 for 'writs only'. When I tally them up, I get 52 skillpoints necessary to do max tier crafting writs for all professions. (9 each for woodworking, clothing, blacksmithing, and enchanting, 4 for jewelry, 7 for alchemy, and 5 for provisioning). Then you put any master writs you get into the bank for your one master crafter to complete with their full list of passives.

Well, you already made several mistakes there. First, you passed up your hirelings. That's 15 skill points, and it's free materials. You can choose not to bother with them, but given that you'll be getting gold materials out of them semi-regularly, there's a strong incentive to put points into them.

You also passed on the multicraft perks for Alchemy and Provisioning. Technically, you don't need these, but they do mean your material returns from those writs are fantastic. So, you'll actually build up crafting mats for both professions over time, instead of slowly hemorrhaging mats, which happens with the equipment writs.

The duration buff passives are also not necessary, but can be extremely useful. I believe Laboratory Use was purchased, which isn't strictly necessary, but that allows the character to craft their own potions in the Trial anti-chamber, if need be. It's a timesaver, as you don't need to log out to do it, and a single SP (at that point.)

heaven13 wrote: »

Additionally, when people talk about being 'viable' for endgame, they're talking about what skills you absolutely need.

No, they're not. If you were talking about the skills you absolutely needed, and nothing else. You could say, you only need 12 skill points.

heaven13 wrote: »

Anything extra is bonus. Vampire - not absolutely necessary.

Vampire is far more important than you seem to realize. Mist Form is an incredible versitile survival tool. If you've never learned to use it, I'd strongly encourage you to start. Undeath can be the difference between dying, and not. (What's your DPS while dead?) After that, +10% recovery is nice, not the end of the world if it's not there.

heaven13 wrote: »

Ledgermain - not necessary. Soul Magic - not necessary.

If you were paying attention, and actually following the math, Soul Magic did not get factored into that 311 number. The spent points on that character is higher than I reported, because I did cull out a few irrelevant skills from the list.

heaven13 wrote: »

My nightblade dps hasn't even finished leveling FG or MG, hasn't even started Psijic and still pulls 30k+ dps in suboptimal gear, no dawnbreaker, missing passives, no vampire/werewolf, no points in crafting, etc. She is VIABLE. I'm not saying she can't do better and that more skillpoints wouldn't improve QoL, like food/alchemy passives to increase duration, but she can certainly complete vet content with no issue. And the skillpoints she has didn't, for the most part, even come from skyshards.

At that point, you've set the bar so low, nearly every passive in the game is optional. You don't need your racials. I mean that. It improves your performance, but you could still hit your rotation without it. You don't need Executioner, Pressure Points, or Hemorrhage. They'll improve your DPS, but if you know what you're doing, you can still pull solid numbers without them. You certainly don't need Undaunted Command and Undaunted Mettle. Good lord no. Slayer's not really that important, is it? And at that point, are passives like Concentration, Evocation, and Prodigy (Or, alternately, Agility, Dexterity, and Wind Walker if you're going Stamblade), really necessary?

I mean I ask because I have cleared vSCP without any armor passives purchased. I have run content with characters who had almost no passives purchased. I can make that work, and I have. However, I would not, in good conscience, call that an "endgame ready character," even though they're in upgraded gear, with perfect traits.

I've run endgame content on a character with almost no morphed active abilities. I can do that as well. But, if I was trying to put that in front of you, and say, "yeah, you can have a viable endgame build with 64 SP," that would be dishonest of me. I know what it takes, I know what you can fudge.

I'm amused you didn't jump on the two points in support. Why would a DPS have two points spent in Support? The answer is, I used to run with a group where one of the healers was trash. Complete trash. Close friend of the raid leader. But, would go into vet trials and spam BoL. I pack Barrier. I never got rid of it, and I always grab it again. Why? Same reason I have War Horn. In case we need it, and no one else can do the job. And, yeah, I have some of those skill points spent because of party members who, when strategies needed to change, couldn't adapt. They were working off a guide, they didn't the ability (or the skill points) to adjust to what was happening. I have one DPS ult I actually use, and I could slot Flawless on the back, but most of the time, I choose to stick Barrier back there.

So, without looking at it, if you haven't been collecting skill lines you need? Your not really running an endgame build. You're in progression, and that's fine, so long as you remember that you're not done. Saying you are is a bit like saying you can run your endgame build at level 15, because no new skill slots will unlock after that.

• viable - capable of working successfully; feasible.

• optimal - best or most favorable

• Assasination - 12 points: ult (morphed), 2 skills morphed, full passives except master assassin since I don't sneak during combat
• Shadow - 11 points: 1 skill morphed, cloak (unmorphed because I only rarely used it when I was doing TG), all passives
• Siphoning - 8 points: 2 skills morphed, 2 full passives
• Dual Wield - 17 points: 3 skills morphed, 1 unmorphed, full passives
• Bow - 18 points: 3 skills morphed, 2 unmorphed, full passives
• Medium Armor - 9 points: full passives except improved sneak
• Heavy Armor - 3 skills: passives that don't require 5 pieces
• Fighters Guild - 6 points: 1 skill morphed, 2 passives (intimidating presence and slayer)
• Mages Guild - 1 point: persuasive
• Assault - 5 points: 2 morphed skills, 1 unmorphed
• Racial - 6 points: all except Hunter's Eye
• Alchemy - 7 points: Solvent Proficieny
• Enchanting - 9 points: Potency Improvement
• Provisioning - 4 points: 3 in improvement, 1 in quality

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The argument against this is: "I don't want this or see any need for it so you are not allowed to have it even if you see it as an annoying grind. You are just an idiot because you don't see it my way."

I wonder how many who oppose this do not allocate any CP for a new character since that is an unfair boost for new alts.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The argument against this is: "I don't want this or see any need for it so you are not allowed to have it even if you see it as an annoying grind. You are just an idiot because you don't see it my way."

I wonder how many who oppose this do not allocate any CP for a new character since that is an unfair boost for new alts.

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

I do somewhat agree with you here, @starkerealm.

Unfortunately, skillpoints are tied to skyshards, at least 143 of them. There could always be a game update to decouple skyshards from skillpoints, where shards are only an exploration achievement (akin to the Lightbringer, I like M'aiq, etc achievements) but those skillpoints would have to go somewhere and I doubt that the people that want the associated skillpoints made accountwide would prefer a different method of acquiring them.

ArenGesus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Alternately, I'd be entirely on board with this being handled as a voucher/Tel Var furnishing solution.

You buy Skyshard maps that are achievement gated using Vouchers or Tel Var, (like the way containers are). Only the owner can interact with them. You want the base game shards? You need to have collected all of them on one character for the achievement, then you spend 400 Vouchers or 400k Tel Var to unlock the collectible. You go to your house, you place it, each of your characters can interact with it to unlock those shards. DLC came out? New Chapter? New map. Expect to spend another 50V/50kTV for the small zones (like Hew's Bane or Mirkmire), and 100V/100kTV for large zones like Wrothgar and the Chapters. Each.

Stick 'em in your house. Collect 'em because they look neat, even after you've used them.

I would be totally on board with this. Not so sure about Tel Var as the appropriate currency because that limits certain players in a different way, and I think it should be a per-zone collectible - so, once collecting all shards in Glenumbra, you can purchase the Glenumbra collectible for those skyshards. And another for lorebooks, etc. But the idea itself would be perfectly satisfactory to me.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Oh, I didn't even see that post of @starkerealm. Yeah, I'd be totally in for that too, I think it's actually a pretty good idea that kind of walks on the exact middle ground some people want. You'd still have to work for it, if you want your alts to have this advantage, but if you were willing to do that there'd be a possibility for it. I'd like that!

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

I do somewhat agree with you here, @starkerealm.

Unfortunately, skillpoints are tied to skyshards, at least 143 of them. There could always be a game update to decouple skyshards from skillpoints, where shards are only an exploration achievement (akin to the Lightbringer, I like M'aiq, etc achievements) but those skillpoints would have to go somewhere and I doubt that the people that want the associated skillpoints made accountwide would prefer a different method of acquiring them.

That's the thing. Skill points as a whole? No. I think the 143 from Skyshards is a middle ground. It's enough to significantly accelerate character advancement, without completely breaking advancement.

I'm not sure if you saw the furnishing suggestion above, but that would 108 Skill Points for the base game map (I think), with a significantly higher TV/voucher costs per point after that, also requiring that you'd completed the related Skyshard hunter achievements. So, that might be a more viable option than just going, "okay, here, have it, go wild."

Tandor wrote: »

If something has no value then don't bother obtaining it again and again. If it does have value, then you're not losing play time in obtaining it.