Maintenance for the week of September 8:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – September 8
• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Why not make Skyshards and Mages Books account bound.
-
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.Edited by srfrogg23 on March 22, 2019 12:24PM3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just be happy ZOS has not increased the skyshards needed for one skill point to 10. Because that seems to be the magic number for style page fragments, style and raw material dust, etc...Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.Edited by CassandraGemini on March 22, 2019 2:24PMThis poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stop grinding out 50 levels using skyreach. Go out and explore and level. Do zone quests. You should have between 85 and 100 skill points by the time you hit level 50.
You know how many times I've run Skyreach? I mean, you must, if you're offering advice on how I should level up. Go on, I'll wait.
Still trying to work it out?
No? Okay, then I'll tell you.
Three times.
I've never ground it. I've run the instance three times. The idea of simply camping out there and grinding it is revolting.
You know how many skill points you need for an endgame build off the top of your head?
I mean, my main has 47 skill points unspent right now. So those aren't needed, clearly, but you should have a pretty good idea how many she has total, right?
So, let's do some quick back of the napkin math for a DPS...
12-14 skill points in each class skill line. That seems reasonable. Maybe you could trim a few off, but our balance is at 40SP spent.
The weapon lines are 18 and 14 respectively. If you're mag DPS, you could probably get by with only specing into Destro Staff, but that's another 32 skills for a total of 72.
Armor is 11 skill points, that doesn't change. (83sp) (Technically, this should be 25, but I'm being lazy on that front.)
Legerdemain is at 20 (This is about utility not combat effectiveness, but there's your 100sp budget.)
There's 4 points in Soul Magic, but let's just call that "recreational," and ignore it.
Vampire is at 13, technically this could be as lwo as 8, but on this character it's 13, so that's 96 Combat + 20 Utility.
Another 40 points spent in guilds. I'm going to break this up a little bit though, since that's mostly utility. 122 Combat + 34 Utility.
8 points in Alliance War (6 in Assault, 2 in Support), all combat. So 130 Combat + 34 Support.
9 Racial skills. 139 Combat + 34 Support.
138 points in crafting. (This is with points moved OUT of the research passives, by the way. It would be higher if this character wasn't full 9 trait.) (Incidentally, if you're only worrying about crafting writs, not having an actual crafter, you can cull this number down to 92. And if you think you can cut this out entirely, you're wrong. Some of this is, technically, combat related.)
So, that works out to be around 311 skill points. Now, let me see... oh, look, that number is just a little bit larger than your estimate of 100 skill points by level 50. That number's also wrong. The average number of skill points for characters on my account is ~170 (~156 if we exclude my main). Which, as you may have noticed, does fall a bit short of being able to do basic consumable crafting in the trial anti-chamber and also have a functional endgame build. (Also, this is before I log over to my tank, and crunch the numbers again, because they are far greedier with their skill points for a number of reasons.)
Again, even if you don't understand that crafting is useful, and assuming that your upper cap of 100 is accurate (It's not). That's still going to require going out and grinding shards or other content to get enough skills to run those characters in endgame.
I'm not some Skyreach baby who crawled out of there and started bawling their eyes out when they realized they'd still need to level their skill lines. I laugh at those guys. I'm also fully aware, getting characters ready for endgame content is a bit more involved than hitting 50, and then queuing into vet DLC content so I can disappoint my party.Edited by starkerealm on March 22, 2019 4:15PM2 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »You really don't need that many skill points on your alts anyway, assuming your main is also your crafter and has the majority of skill points.
This is where you err. Some of us are leveling crafting on everyone, especially for the hirelings and writs. You need a LOT of skillpoints for that.
Looking for SkyShards the 10th time gets extremely old. At least add in the same tools PC players have with addons. You may not care, but some of us do.PC
PS4/PS51 -
Ender1310✭✭✭✭I don't really understand people that "enjoy" leveling guilds and skyshards for the 8th time. I am a max CP all classes in the game kind of guy so I understand the argument of it's not fair that we had to do it but it's not really a good argument kind of ugly really. Bottom line is I like having alts and I hate having to grind for things that I have done seven times before. I like ops suggestion.2 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »You really don't need that many skill points on your alts anyway, assuming your main is also your crafter and has the majority of skill points.
This is where you err. Some of us are leveling crafting on everyone, especially for the hirelings and writs. You need a LOT of skillpoints for that.
Looking for SkyShards the 10th time gets extremely old. At least add in the same tools PC players have with addons. You may not care, but some of us do.
Uh... did you actually read any of my posts except for this one snippet where I pointed out a technicality - which is absolutely correct by the way and not something I "err" about, since you just said yourself, that "some of you" are leveling crafting on everyone. The majority of people don't and there's no reason to. I did it on my main as well, she has A LOT of skill points invested in every crafting branch, so yeah, I know how many are needed for that. Which is exactly the reason I only did it on my main, I don't have the time nor the patience to do this on every alt I create. If you do that's fine, but it has no real bearing on your combat prowess, so it's a lot less necessary but more of a QoL question, as some other people already pointed out.
Other than that I DID write everywhere that I'm in support of skyshards and lorebooks being account bound, and that I am totally with you about looking for skyshards getting old very fast, so I'm really not sure what you're trying to tell me here.
EDIT: Ok, sorry, I just realized that I wrote in my first post where this quote is from that I wouldn't want skyshards to be available to a newly created character, and that still holds true. However I said later that I'd be fine with them being unlocked at level 50 like cp, when someone pointed out that that may be a possibility and I thought: "Yeah, that actually sounds good" and I stuck with that ever since. So, yeah, there you have it.
Edited by CassandraGemini on March 22, 2019 4:49PMThis poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »You really don't need that many skill points on your alts anyway, assuming your main is also your crafter and has the majority of skill points.
This is where you err. Some of us are leveling crafting on everyone, especially for the hirelings and writs. You need a LOT of skillpoints for that.
Looking for SkyShards the 10th time gets extremely old. At least add in the same tools PC players have with addons. You may not care, but some of us do.
It's not better over here. I mean, yeah, I can make a bee line to any skyshard in the game (that isn't quest gated), but you still need to get out there and go collect each one. By hand, which still takes a lot of time.
Incidentally, "Writs Only" is 92 skill points.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »The majority of people don't and there's no reason to.
Again, reference the post by Inklings earlier in this thread. Not speccing into crafting leaves a lot of cash on the table from writs. You can technically classify this as, "unnecessary," if you want, but, there's very compelling reasons to have 15 characters who can complete max tier writs.
Now, there isn't a lot of point to doing research, motifs, or recipe on alternate crafters. But, there are damn good reasons to make sure you've put points into crafting.0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »The majority of people don't and there's no reason to.
Again, reference the post by Inklings earlier in this thread. Not speccing into crafting leaves a lot of cash on the table from writs. You can technically classify this as, "unnecessary," if you want, but, there's very compelling reasons to have 15 characters who can complete max tier writs.
Now, there isn't a lot of point to doing research, motifs, or recipe on alternate crafters. But, there are damn good reasons to make sure you've put points into crafting.
Okay, well, let's maybe agree on this: For people who have the time and play ESO as their main game without doing anything else on the side (by which I mean other games) that may very well be the case. Don't know how big the part of the ESO player-base is that has such amounts of time to sink into the game that they'd want to make crafters out of every single one of their characters for the writs and through that, ultimately, the money. For those people you're certainly right, I'm not even arguing that.
The thing is just, there's very likely lots of people like me, too, who don't have such extreme amounts of time and who, in the time that they do have, want to sometimes play other stuff as well. So, yeah, while I do care about end-game content and being viable for that with all my characters, I just don't have the time or patience to go after writs and money with all of them like that, so... yeah, that's the perspective I write this from and I'm sure there's more people like that around. For all of us, it's not necessary. That's really all I'm saying.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!1 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »You really don't need that many skill points on your alts anyway, assuming your main is also your crafter and has the majority of skill points.
This is where you err. Some of us are leveling crafting on everyone, especially for the hirelings and writs. You need a LOT of skillpoints for that.
Looking for SkyShards the 10th time gets extremely old. At least add in the same tools PC players have with addons. You may not care, but some of us do.
It's not better over here. I mean, yeah, I can make a bee line to any skyshard in the game (that isn't quest gated), but you still need to get out there and go collect each one. By hand, which still takes a lot of time.
Incidentally, "Writs Only" is 92 skill points.
I'm not sure where you're getting 92 for 'writs only'. When I tally them up, I get 52 skillpoints necessary to do max tier crafting writs for all professions. (9 each for woodworking, clothing, blacksmithing, and enchanting, 4 for jewelry, 7 for alchemy, and 5 for provisioning). Then you put any master writs you get into the bank for your one master crafter to complete with their full list of passives.
Additionally, when people talk about being 'viable' for endgame, they're talking about what skills you absolutely need. Anything extra is bonus. Vampire - not absolutely necessary. Ledgermain - not necessary. Soul Magic - not necessary. My nightblade dps hasn't even finished leveling FG or MG, hasn't even started Psijic and still pulls 30k+ dps in suboptimal gear, no dawnbreaker, missing passives, no vampire/werewolf, no points in crafting, etc. She is VIABLE. I'm not saying she can't do better and that more skillpoints wouldn't improve QoL, like food/alchemy passives to increase duration, but she can certainly complete vet content with no issue. And the skillpoints she has didn't, for the most part, even come from skyshards.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.
I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.
If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?
I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".
Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »The majority of people don't and there's no reason to.
Again, reference the post by Inklings earlier in this thread. Not speccing into crafting leaves a lot of cash on the table from writs. You can technically classify this as, "unnecessary," if you want, but, there's very compelling reasons to have 15 characters who can complete max tier writs.
Now, there isn't a lot of point to doing research, motifs, or recipe on alternate crafters. But, there are damn good reasons to make sure you've put points into crafting.
Okay, well, let's maybe agree on this: For people who have the time and play ESO as their main game without doing anything else on the side (by which I mean other games) that may very well be the case. Don't know how big the part of the ESO player-base is that has such amounts of time to sink into the game that they'd want to make crafters out of every single one of their characters for the writs and through that, ultimately, the money. For those people you're certainly right, I'm not even arguing that.
The thing is just, there's very likely lots of people like me, too, who don't have such extreme amounts of time and who, in the time that they do have, want to sometimes play other stuff as well. So, yeah, while I do care about end-game content and being viable for that with all my characters, I just don't have the time or patience to go after writs and money with all of them like that, so... yeah, that's the perspective I write this from and I'm sure there's more people like that around. For all of us, it's not necessary. That's really all I'm saying.
When we're talking about someone like that, they're not going to be running 15 max level characters. They may not have any max level characters. That's a completely different set of considerations.
There's no shame in that. For a casual player, there's no reason they should even consider maxing crafting on all characters. However, if you are running 15 max level characters, chances are, you are the category of players who would have a strong incentive to max those lines.
There is a caveat: This is far less appealing if you're on consoles, without access to addons. Several addons significantly streamline and speed up the process of executing writs. If you're on a PS4 or XB1, you could be looking at over 2 hours to do your writs each day. At that point, that's a massive time commitment. On PC you can get that down to under an hour (depending on your hardware.)0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Stop grinding out 50 levels using skyreach. Go out and explore and level. Do zone quests. You should have between 85 and 100 skill points by the time you hit level 50.
You know how many times I've run Skyreach? I mean, you must, if you're offering advice on how I should level up. Go on, I'll wait.
Still trying to work it out?
No? Okay, then I'll tell you.
Three times.
I've never ground it. I've run the instance three times. The idea of simply camping out there and grinding it is revolting.
You know how many skill points you need for an endgame build off the top of your head?
I mean, my main has 47 skill points unspent right now. So those aren't needed, clearly, but you should have a pretty good idea how many she has total, right?
So, let's do some quick back of the napkin math for a DPS...
12-14 skill points in each class skill line. That seems reasonable. Maybe you could trim a few off, but our balance is at 40SP spent.
The weapon lines are 18 and 14 respectively. If you're mag DPS, you could probably get by with only specing into Destro Staff, but that's another 32 skills for a total of 72.
Armor is 11 skill points, that doesn't change. (83sp) (Technically, this should be 25, but I'm being lazy on that front.)
Legerdemain is at 20 (This is about utility not combat effectiveness, but there's your 100sp budget.)
There's 4 points in Soul Magic, but let's just call that "recreational," and ignore it.
Vampire is at 13, technically this could be as lwo as 8, but on this character it's 13, so that's 96 Combat + 20 Utility.
Another 40 points spent in guilds. I'm going to break this up a little bit though, since that's mostly utility. 122 Combat + 34 Utility.
8 points in Alliance War (6 in Assault, 2 in Support), all combat. So 130 Combat + 34 Support.
9 Racial skills. 139 Combat + 34 Support.
138 points in crafting. (This is with points moved OUT of the research passives, by the way. It would be higher if this character wasn't full 9 trait.) (Incidentally, if you're only worrying about crafting writs, not having an actual crafter, you can cull this number down to 92. And if you think you can cut this out entirely, you're wrong. Some of this is, technically, combat related.)
So, that works out to be around 311 skill points. Now, let me see... oh, look, that number is just a little bit larger than your estimate of 100 skill points by level 50. That number's also wrong. The average number of skill points for characters on my account is ~170 (~156 if we exclude my main). Which, as you may have noticed, does fall a bit short of being able to do basic consumable crafting in the trial anti-chamber and also have a functional endgame build. (Also, this is before I log over to my tank, and crunch the numbers again, because they are far greedier with their skill points for a number of reasons.)
Again, even if you don't understand that crafting is useful, and assuming that your upper cap of 100 is accurate (It's not). That's still going to require going out and grinding shards or other content to get enough skills to run those characters in endgame.
I'm not some Skyreach baby who crawled out of there and started bawling their eyes out when they realized they'd still need to level their skill lines. I laugh at those guys. I'm also fully aware, getting characters ready for endgame content is a bit more involved than hitting 50, and then queuing into vet DLC content so I can disappoint my party.
Ok, how did you end up with only 64 skill points at max level? You do remember trying to argue that is what you had without grinding skyshards "for hours", right?
Since you mentioned it. I really don't like leveling legerdemain. I think all of my characters should start off with it maxed out because I want the benefits but I dont want to have to do all that thief stuff again to get the bonus to forcing locks.
Come to think of it, I've already leveled TG and DB on my main. Why should I have to level them again on my alts? All of my characters should have those maxed at level 3. Then I just need to pick a weapon skill...
And start with that maxed out! After all, I did that on EVERY character and leveling weapon skills is SO BORING the nth time! Am I right?
Fighters guild? Super boring grinding out those dolmens... make it account wide!
Anything else we should make account wide while we're at it? Racial passives? Armor skills? Quest completion?
I bet, if enough things are account wide, we can make it completely pointless to play after we're done with our first character... which seems kind of boring.
Just my opinion.Edited by srfrogg23 on March 22, 2019 5:21PM2 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.
I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.
If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?
I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".
Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?
Okay, so first: I don't suggest you have to grind out every last skyshard on every character. Absolutely not. In my first post I even wrote that I wouldn't want skyshards to be account bound since that could make new characters too op, but when someone said it might be a possibility to lock them behind reaching level 50, that sounded like a good idea to me. I just wrote to someone else that I look at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to play, so maybe keep that in mind.
Anyway, my main concern were always the lorebooks, because to me they're one of the most tedious parts of the whole game. And yes, you're right, it would most certainly be a bad idea to unlock the skill line on new characters right away (I also said that before). I can't quite tell you what I'd do to counter that if you still want to keep the lorebooks, that's an issue, yes. Maybe really make the progress of the quest line itself not dependent on the progress of lorebooks but something else and unlock the skill line once you've completed the quests? Don't know, doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me either, and so, yeah, I can see how this would cause problems. But that still doesn't change the fact that the process of collecting stuff to further a skill line or to gain skill points is not exactly the pinnacle of innovation or the most fun thing I can imagine doing to level something up and is that not what this is actually about?
And also: Don't you think that it would, on the contrary, help the longevity of the game, if you could more easily access all kinds of stuff once you hit level 50 on your alts? For people like me who don't have that much time, it certainly would, since I could much more easily try all kinds of builds, races and classes out without knowing I'll have to run around collecting things again.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »The majority of people don't and there's no reason to.
Again, reference the post by Inklings earlier in this thread. Not speccing into crafting leaves a lot of cash on the table from writs. You can technically classify this as, "unnecessary," if you want, but, there's very compelling reasons to have 15 characters who can complete max tier writs.
Now, there isn't a lot of point to doing research, motifs, or recipe on alternate crafters. But, there are damn good reasons to make sure you've put points into crafting.
Okay, well, let's maybe agree on this: For people who have the time and play ESO as their main game without doing anything else on the side (by which I mean other games) that may very well be the case. Don't know how big the part of the ESO player-base is that has such amounts of time to sink into the game that they'd want to make crafters out of every single one of their characters for the writs and through that, ultimately, the money. For those people you're certainly right, I'm not even arguing that.
The thing is just, there's very likely lots of people like me, too, who don't have such extreme amounts of time and who, in the time that they do have, want to sometimes play other stuff as well. So, yeah, while I do care about end-game content and being viable for that with all my characters, I just don't have the time or patience to go after writs and money with all of them like that, so... yeah, that's the perspective I write this from and I'm sure there's more people like that around. For all of us, it's not necessary. That's really all I'm saying.
When we're talking about someone like that, they're not going to be running 15 max level characters. They may not have any max level characters. That's a completely different set of considerations.
There's no shame in that. For a casual player, there's no reason they should even consider maxing crafting on all characters. However, if you are running 15 max level characters, chances are, you are the category of players who would have a strong incentive to max those lines.
There is a caveat: This is far less appealing if you're on consoles, without access to addons. Several addons significantly streamline and speed up the process of executing writs. If you're on a PS4 or XB1, you could be looking at over 2 hours to do your writs each day. At that point, that's a massive time commitment. On PC you can get that down to under an hour (depending on your hardware.)
Yeah, that might be a difference I wasn't even aware of. All those nice addons you PC users get (makes me a bit jealous, tbh). I'm on PS4 so I don't have these luxuries, unfortunately.
And just as a side note, I'm definitely not a casual player in that sense, since, as I said, I do care about end-game content... but yeah, time is a factor. And no, I don't have 15 fully leveled toons. Just 4 atm. But I do want it to be more (working on it), since I like to try everything out, including classes, races and roles. So, yeah, that's really my main incentive here, to make all of this a little easier accessible for people who like to play around with different stuff but don't have as much time. Or those nice PC addons.
This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.
I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.
If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?
I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".
Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?
Okay, so first: I don't suggest you have to grind out every last skyshard on every character. Absolutely not. In my first post I even wrote that I wouldn't want skyshards to be account bound since that could make new characters too op, but when someone said it might be a possibility to lock them behind reaching level 50, that sounded like a good idea to me. I just wrote to someone else that I look at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to play, so maybe keep that in mind.
Anyway, my main concern were always the lorebooks, because to me they're one of the most tedious parts of the whole game. And yes, you're right, it would most certainly be a bad idea to unlock the skill line on new characters right away (I also said that before). I can't quite tell you what I'd do to counter that if you still want to keep the lorebooks, that's an issue, yes. Maybe really make the progress of the quest line itself not dependent on the progress of lorebooks but something else and unlock the skill line once you've completed the quests? Don't know, doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me either, and so, yeah, I can see how this would cause problems. But that still doesn't change the fact that the process of collecting stuff to further a skill line or to gain skill points is not exactly the pinnacle of innovation or the most fun thing I can imagine doing to level something up and is that not what this is actually about?
And also: Don't you think that it would, on the contrary, help the longevity of the game, if you could more easily access all kinds of stuff once you hit level 50 on your alts? For people like me who don't have that much time, it certainly would, since I could much more easily try all kinds of builds, races and classes out without knowing I'll have to run around collecting things again.
Ugh... no. It would be terrible for the longevity of the game. Main characters still exist and alts are nice side projects. If the focus is dwindled down solely to rushing to level cap then jumping into Trials, then you might as well go play WoW. That's how WoW is set up. Nothing to collect or work towards during the leveling process. Just a boring mad dash to end game "where the real game begins". Yuck. No. That would kill ESO.Edited by srfrogg23 on March 22, 2019 5:29PM2 -
Haojin✭✭✭didn't read old posts.
farming skyshards & lorebooks is the dumbest grind i ever seen. they are the reason i am not creating many alts.
my 2cGuildmaster of Phalanx
PC-EU Vivec/Sotha SilHao Jin [Stamden]
Haojun [Stamdk]
Haojin [Stamsorc]
Hao'jin [Stamplar]
Food Fetish [Stamblade]2 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.
I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.
If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?
I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".
Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?
Okay, so first: I don't suggest you have to grind out every last skyshard on every character. Absolutely not. In my first post I even wrote that I wouldn't want skyshards to be account bound since that could make new characters too op, but when someone said it might be a possibility to lock them behind reaching level 50, that sounded like a good idea to me. I just wrote to someone else that I look at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to play, so maybe keep that in mind.
Anyway, my main concern were always the lorebooks, because to me they're one of the most tedious parts of the whole game. And yes, you're right, it would most certainly be a bad idea to unlock the skill line on new characters right away (I also said that before). I can't quite tell you what I'd do to counter that if you still want to keep the lorebooks, that's an issue, yes. Maybe really make the progress of the quest line itself not dependent on the progress of lorebooks but something else and unlock the skill line once you've completed the quests? Don't know, doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me either, and so, yeah, I can see how this would cause problems. But that still doesn't change the fact that the process of collecting stuff to further a skill line or to gain skill points is not exactly the pinnacle of innovation or the most fun thing I can imagine doing to level something up and is that not what this is actually about?
And also: Don't you think that it would, on the contrary, help the longevity of the game, if you could more easily access all kinds of stuff once you hit level 50 on your alts? For people like me who don't have that much time, it certainly would, since I could much more easily try all kinds of builds, races and classes out without knowing I'll have to run around collecting things again.
Ugh... no. It would be terrible for the longevity of the game. Main characters still exist and alts are nice side projects. If the focus is dwindled down solely to rushing to level cap then jumping into Trials, then you might as well go play WoW. That's how WoW is set up. Nothing to collect or work towards during the leveling process. Just a boring mad dash to end game "where the real game begins". Yuck. No. That would kill ESO.
Sorry, but I really can't see that, this is your opinion and yours alone, because obviously you do have a weird passion for collecting stuff for the 10th time. But how exactly would making these things accessible at a certain point for new toons shift the focus of the whole game solely to trials and other end-game content? Can't you still go and explore and quest at your leisure if you so please? Does anyone force you to do end-game stuff just because technically you have enough skill points at your disposal to do so? I really don't think so. So, pretty much, what this boils down to must be, that collecting stuff must be your hobby and you just want to do it on every alt. Alright, then. Let's just leave it at that because I really don't know what else to say to that.This poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »You really don't need that many skill points on your alts anyway, assuming your main is also your crafter and has the majority of skill points.
This is where you err. Some of us are leveling crafting on everyone, especially for the hirelings and writs. You need a LOT of skillpoints for that.
Looking for SkyShards the 10th time gets extremely old. At least add in the same tools PC players have with addons. You may not care, but some of us do.
It's not better over here. I mean, yeah, I can make a bee line to any skyshard in the game (that isn't quest gated), but you still need to get out there and go collect each one. By hand, which still takes a lot of time.
Incidentally, "Writs Only" is 92 skill points.
I'm not sure where you're getting 92 for 'writs only'. When I tally them up, I get 52 skillpoints necessary to do max tier crafting writs for all professions. (9 each for woodworking, clothing, blacksmithing, and enchanting, 4 for jewelry, 7 for alchemy, and 5 for provisioning). Then you put any master writs you get into the bank for your one master crafter to complete with their full list of passives.
Well, you already made several mistakes there. First, you passed up your hirelings. That's 15 skill points, and it's free materials. You can choose not to bother with them, but given that you'll be getting gold materials out of them semi-regularly, there's a strong incentive to put points into them.
You also passed on the multicraft perks for Alchemy and Provisioning. Technically, you don't need these, but they do mean your material returns from those writs are fantastic. So, you'll actually build up crafting mats for both professions over time, instead of slowly hemorrhaging mats, which happens with the equipment writs.
The duration buff passives are also not necessary, but can be extremely useful. I believe Laboratory Use was purchased, which isn't strictly necessary, but that allows the character to craft their own potions in the Trial anti-chamber, if need be. It's a timesaver, as you don't need to log out to do it, and a single SP (at that point.)Additionally, when people talk about being 'viable' for endgame, they're talking about what skills you absolutely need.
No, they're not. If you were talking about the skills you absolutely needed, and nothing else. You could say, you only need 12 skill points.Anything extra is bonus. Vampire - not absolutely necessary.
Vampire is far more important than you seem to realize. Mist Form is an incredible versitile survival tool. If you've never learned to use it, I'd strongly encourage you to start. Undeath can be the difference between dying, and not. (What's your DPS while dead?) After that, +10% recovery is nice, not the end of the world if it's not there.Ledgermain - not necessary. Soul Magic - not necessary.
If you were paying attention, and actually following the math, Soul Magic did not get factored into that 311 number. The spent points on that character is higher than I reported, because I did cull out a few irrelevant skills from the list.My nightblade dps hasn't even finished leveling FG or MG, hasn't even started Psijic and still pulls 30k+ dps in suboptimal gear, no dawnbreaker, missing passives, no vampire/werewolf, no points in crafting, etc. She is VIABLE. I'm not saying she can't do better and that more skillpoints wouldn't improve QoL, like food/alchemy passives to increase duration, but she can certainly complete vet content with no issue. And the skillpoints she has didn't, for the most part, even come from skyshards.
At that point, you've set the bar so low, nearly every passive in the game is optional. You don't need your racials. I mean that. It improves your performance, but you could still hit your rotation without it. You don't need Executioner, Pressure Points, or Hemorrhage. They'll improve your DPS, but if you know what you're doing, you can still pull solid numbers without them. You certainly don't need Undaunted Command and Undaunted Mettle. Good lord no. Slayer's not really that important, is it? And at that point, are passives like Concentration, Evocation, and Prodigy (Or, alternately, Agility, Dexterity, and Wind Walker if you're going Stamblade), really necessary?
I mean I ask because I have cleared vSCP without any armor passives purchased. I have run content with characters who had almost no passives purchased. I can make that work, and I have. However, I would not, in good conscience, call that an "endgame ready character," even though they're in upgraded gear, with perfect traits.
I've run endgame content on a character with almost no morphed active abilities. I can do that as well. But, if I was trying to put that in front of you, and say, "yeah, you can have a viable endgame build with 64 SP," that would be dishonest of me. I know what it takes, I know what you can fudge.
I'm amused you didn't jump on the two points in support. Why would a DPS have two points spent in Support? The answer is, I used to run with a group where one of the healers was trash. Complete trash. Close friend of the raid leader. But, would go into vet trials and spam BoL. I pack Barrier. I never got rid of it, and I always grab it again. Why? Same reason I have War Horn. In case we need it, and no one else can do the job. And, yeah, I have some of those skill points spent because of party members who, when strategies needed to change, couldn't adapt. They were working off a guide, they didn't the ability (or the skill points) to adjust to what was happening. I have one DPS ult I actually use, and I could slot Flawless on the back, but most of the time, I choose to stick Barrier back there.
So, without looking at it, if you haven't been collecting skill lines you need? Your not really running an endgame build. You're in progression, and that's fine, so long as you remember that you're not done. Saying you are is a bit like saying you can run your endgame build at level 15, because no new skill slots will unlock after that.Edited by starkerealm on March 22, 2019 5:52PM1 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.
I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.
If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?
I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".
Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?
Okay, so first: I don't suggest you have to grind out every last skyshard on every character. Absolutely not. In my first post I even wrote that I wouldn't want skyshards to be account bound since that could make new characters too op, but when someone said it might be a possibility to lock them behind reaching level 50, that sounded like a good idea to me. I just wrote to someone else that I look at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to play, so maybe keep that in mind.
Anyway, my main concern were always the lorebooks, because to me they're one of the most tedious parts of the whole game. And yes, you're right, it would most certainly be a bad idea to unlock the skill line on new characters right away (I also said that before). I can't quite tell you what I'd do to counter that if you still want to keep the lorebooks, that's an issue, yes. Maybe really make the progress of the quest line itself not dependent on the progress of lorebooks but something else and unlock the skill line once you've completed the quests? Don't know, doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me either, and so, yeah, I can see how this would cause problems. But that still doesn't change the fact that the process of collecting stuff to further a skill line or to gain skill points is not exactly the pinnacle of innovation or the most fun thing I can imagine doing to level something up and is that not what this is actually about?
And also: Don't you think that it would, on the contrary, help the longevity of the game, if you could more easily access all kinds of stuff once you hit level 50 on your alts? For people like me who don't have that much time, it certainly would, since I could much more easily try all kinds of builds, races and classes out without knowing I'll have to run around collecting things again.
Ugh... no. It would be terrible for the longevity of the game. Main characters still exist and alts are nice side projects. If the focus is dwindled down solely to rushing to level cap then jumping into Trials, then you might as well go play WoW. That's how WoW is set up. Nothing to collect or work towards during the leveling process. Just a boring mad dash to end game "where the real game begins". Yuck. No. That would kill ESO.
Sorry, but I really can't see that, this is your opinion and yours alone, because obviously you do have a weird passion for collecting stuff for the 10th time. But how exactly would making these things accessible at a certain point for new toons shift the focus of the whole game solely to trials and other end-game content? Can't you still go and explore and quest at your leisure if you so please? Does anyone force you to do end-game stuff just because technically you have enough skill points at your disposal to do so? I really don't think so. So, pretty much, what this boils down to must be, that collecting stuff must be your hobby and you just want to do it on every alt. Alright, then. Let's just leave it at that because I really don't know what else to say to that.
Srfrogg23 is just expressing what quite a few have expressed in the endless number of threads requesting this. The rest of us are tired of repeating ourselves.
Put a way point on the map after you discover a skyshard/mages guild book. That'd be fair.
"It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard1 -
ArenGesus✭✭✭✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Srfrogg23 is just expressing what quite a few have expressed in the endless number of threads requesting this. The rest of us are tired of repeating ourselves.
Put a way point on the map after you discover a skyshard/mages guild book. That'd be fair.
If you're tired then just stop. It's fair to have things found via exploration be account bound and accessible at level 50. There is no argument against that, if fairness is all you care about. Because there is nothing unfair about having access to something where no value is gained in obtaining it again and again, at the cost of lost play time.3 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.
I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.
If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?
I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".
Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?
Not like applying 810cp to a level 3 is any better right? But my CP I grinded for it and I deserve to use it even on a level 3 toon....... That doesn't make leveling an alt easy right? 😉
I have said numerous times everything should be locked behind level 50. CP shouldn't work below 50, magebook, psijic order, and skyshards.
I can tell you now I enjoy playing tank and healer and they consume more skill points than a DPS because we need a lot of what if moves for different fights and so we don't overlap others of the same role. So I'd I wanted to make a new tank (currently have 8 toons) then I need to get them skyshards and gear because both support roles are expected to carry around lots of gear sets. So trust me when I say there is more to do in this game to get ready for endgame, so why are we needed to make it so grindy it makes players not want to redo boring tedious things like touching x item over and over.
It's not like we are asking to get every quest skill points just skyshards. That means people will still run dungeons, very dungeons, trials, pvp, regular quests.4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, how did you end up with only 64 skill points at max level?
Okay, let me see if I can explain this so you'll understand it.
When you earn experience, you level up.
When you level up, you get a skill point.
When you level to level 5, 15, 25, 35 and 45, you get two skill points.
Still with me.
When you level to 10, 20, 30, 40, and level 50, you get three.
Add that together and you get 64.
Okay, did you understand that?
Lowest SP pool on my account is 96 or 97. No idea what that was when they hit 50. One the low ones got there through PvP (primarily), the other got there through the dungeon finder. Got a few around 100. Mostly dungeon finder levels as well. Though at least one of those was a PvP junkie. Has 107 SP, but has Pit Hero, Merciless, Butcher, Paragon and (I think) Tactician (though that may be my Imperial Stamblade). So, clearly, I was slacking off.0 -
Siohwenoeht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Srfrogg23 is just expressing what quite a few have expressed in the endless number of threads requesting this. The rest of us are tired of repeating ourselves.
Put a way point on the map after you discover a skyshard/mages guild book. That'd be fair.
If you're tired then just stop. It's fair to have things found via exploration be account bound and accessible at level 50. There is no argument against that, if fairness is all you care about. Because there is nothing unfair about having access to something where no value is gained in obtaining it again and again, at the cost of lost play time.
Unfortunately, the value is subjective. Some find it valuable others don't. If you leave it as is, you'll be upset. If it's changed to what you want, the people on the other side will be upset.
It seems to me the only fair solution is to make it easier for the camp that wants it free on alts, while still having to physically get the shard will satisfy the camp that wants effort put in to gaining skill points.
The grind is self imposed. At this point I can't remember if it's this thread or one of the others that I posted on, but my last alt to reach level 50 had 80% of the skyshards complete just by playing, not actively searching them out. It's a contrived problem.Edited by Siohwenoeht on March 22, 2019 6:10PM"It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard0 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Soul19reaper wrote: »Kidgangster101 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »barney2525 wrote: »All I see throughout this whole discussion is one basic Philosophy : " I Just Want To Play the Game Itself One Time "
Then you haven't read this thread. People want to be able to actually play their new character. Not grind for 40 hours collecting skyshards before they can do so.
We can all play our alts just fine without spending any time grinding lorebooks or skyshards. You are over exaggerating. A lot. Like, to the point of being completely and utterly ridiculous and unbelievable.
Wait. Was that the point?
You do know how many quest people can do right? You know there is dungeons, trials, dolmains, farming for gear, farming for money, doing pvp in cyrodil or queing for battlegrounds, there are mages guild missions, fighters guild missions, dueling, stealing, fishing, event quests, achievement hunting, and all of these are engaging content that the devs spent a very very long time making and coming out with. Players should be pushed into doing the same boring activity that has no text involved at all. You do know that when you touch a skyshard it says skyshard obtained until you earn a skill points right?
Fortunately, the devs sprinkled the skyshards near quest objectives and in the delves that you have to go for the Undaunted quests. The mages guild dailies are on top of the Group Challenge in Public Dungeons, which grant a skill point upon completion. There is also a skyshard in each public dungeon you can grab while you are there. If you are farming mats, you are bound to get close to skyshards as well. If you are running group dungeons, you will get skill points the first time you complete the quest in each dungeon. If you are going to PvP, leveling up Alliance ranks grants skill points as well, and the first 10 levels are pretty easy for a serious PvPer. Not to mention that there are numerous skyshards in Cyrodiil, which you can grab as you go by, or when you go into a delve for Blessings of war. So you can get your skyshards while doing the engaging content you are mentioning.
The guy is right you are not reading what people are saying. People are stating they don't want to grind meaningless content that has no progression on any sort of story. You can do the main story beat it, do all the zone stories and beat them and it never changes the more skyshards you get. So that means skyshard hunting is a meaningless mind numbing boring tedious thing in the game that never alters a single story in the game. People want to "play the game" not search for their skyshard for the 10th time after they paid zos a crazy amount of money to unlock an alt.
That is entirely you choice. You are severing the finding of skyshards from the rest of the content and focusing on that instead of just doing them as you go through a zone for questing/farming/killing world bosses/dolmens.
The devs designed the game to be played as a whole. The fact that you are separating into parts and turning each part into a grind is on you.
You don't get it the whole point is doing it once twice or maybe thrice is OK but over and over again for every new you make becomes GRIND and this is something that you don't do on every possible characters unless youre playing 12 hrs a day.
No, you just don't do it instantly - which is what those lobbying for stuff to be account-wide are wanting.
So, you're in favor of people being gated from playing the game by an additional grind. Cool.
Hey, quick question, how many characters do you play?
I have a full time job with a 1 hour commute each way, other hobbies and a family.
I have 15 characters and all of them are functional enough, with enough skill points and purple gear to do normal dungeons and trials. I have 3 of them geared enough and with enough skill points to do vet content.
All of them have done every dungeon and Craglorn trial on normal, every world boss and dolmen and all of the Craglorn quests.
They are also all level 50 in blacksmith, clothing, woodworking and enchanting. Still working on getting provisioning, alchemy and jewlery on some.
Most of them have about 100 skillpoints or so. The vets have 250-400 skill points.
It took time to do it but it's definitely doableEdited by Katahdin on March 22, 2019 6:14PMBeta tester November 20131 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »CassandraGemini wrote: »Your answer makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does. That aside, I'm mostly just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you saying that people shouldn't have to do something they dont have to do because none of it needs to exist in the first place and that's why you save money by not leveling alts?
Nope, try again.Kidgangster101 wrote: »You do know there is a thing called technology right? Lol someone can make a post from their phone while at work or outside doing something other than sitting down playing a game 24/7. So the fact that they could have already be done means nothing 😂😂😂😂😂 not everyone plays the game like that. Some people only get to play 2 hours a night and the nights they do might not want to spend time grinding anything.
no no no, you got it all wrong, ESO should be a JOB online!
Right, well, either way. I'm with the devs on this one. Skyshards shouldn't be account bound. It's an important progression mechanic and reward for exploration.
Well, yeah, but only for the first time. Getting all the skyshards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil maybe), lorebooks, time breaches or whatever as an exploration mechanic makes sense when you do it one one character, your main probably. So that when you're done, you have that feeling of accomplishment and go "Whew, glad that's done!". But where exactly is there a sense of exploration left when you've done these things before and have to do them on every new character again nonetheless? There just is none, it simply becomes extremely boring and a chore very fast. And that feeling of accomplishment that I just mentioned? For me at least it was very stale since I knew I would have to go through all that again to a certain extent on my alts instead of being done for good.
Now, as I said in my first post here I don't feel like a new character should get all those skill points (if skyshards were to be account bound) as soon as you create them. I wouldn't have a problem with a cp-like system where you unlock them by reaching level 50. And yes, I can also see how it wouldn't be ideal if skill lines were shared, which would consequently happen, if lorebooks and the Psijic Order progress were to be account bound as well. There would have to be another form of locking mechanism then. I believe someone proposed to unlock them by completing the respective quest lines; that could work out I think. But really, I'm not opposed to levelling skill lines again on new characters at all. It's just the way Zos decided to connect the levelling process of two of these skill lines with something that is mind-numbingly boring and grindy. If these two skill lines were levelled differently, I'd be all good, I just don't want to collect something completely meaningless for the umpteenth time. It's dumb and I'd much rather spend my time with the game by actually playing.
I think you're over exaggerating the importance of farming skyshards and the guild skill lines for the sake of your opinion.
*lol* I wonder if you have a magicka using end game content character who doesn't use the Mages Guild skill line in one way or another. Psijic is pretty crucial too. But... oh, yeah, maybe you are just downplaying the whole grinding thing for the sake of your argument? Just a thought.
I do have 3 magicka characters at endgame. Neither meteor, nor the Psijic line as a whole, are crucial. I'm actually pretty sure that the ultimate for the destruction staff is better than meteor. Meteor is popular because it was the "go-to" ultimate for magicka builds before the weapon skills had ultimates added to them.
The skills from the mages guild that are more ubiquitously used tend to be obtained before rank 6, like Inner Light, Entropy, and Persuasion. The rest is pretty niche. That's 5 skill points and one of them isn't even combat related. And you can get to something like rank 5 just by doing the mages guild quest line. Hunting for books shouldn'tbe needed because you will come across bunch of them just through normal leveling.
If you want to go above and beyond, you can get the passives that give 2% magicka for each skill slotted, but it's not what I'd call a "game breaker" if you don't have it.
"Oh noes! I parsed 34.5k instead of 35.5k! I fail, no one will ever let me in a trial group ever again!" Sorry, but that's absurd and untrue when actually playing the game.
The entire Psijic skill line is just plain niche. It's there as a flavor option, not some new-age FOTM pseudo-mandatory skill line.
*sigh* No one ever said anything about these things being "mandatory" and I'm most definitely not one of these obsessed meta-chasers, so that argument of yours goes down the drain (cause if I were I wouldn't be playing a Bosmer stamblade as my main, since Bosmer was never the meta for stam dps). Of course they're not, nothing is mandatory in that sense, you can perfectly well just play the game without it. But if you're interested in end-game content certain skills and set-ups become more important, and even you yourself did actually just agree with me that they're very useful and that's what this is about: Having skills that are useful for a whole lot of builds locked behind a levelling process that is just unimaginative and repetitive.
I really have no idea, however, what it is, that makes you defend these lazy and boring mechanics so fiercely. I mean, do you actually enjoy collecting this stuff time and time again? It's one thing to not be bothered by it as much as other people are, or not to care as much about it. But why someone would insist as much as you do that the whole grinding/collecting is actually a good thing instead of just being indifferent whether it is one way or the other, is really beyond me.
I don't collect it on every alt. I get what I need to create the build I want then I get into the content I'm going to do with that character.
If you agree that these things aren't mandatory, then why are you suggesting that we have to grind out skyshards on every character?
I defend this "lazy mechanic" because I understand I don't have to grind for skyshards to make an endgame viable build. I understand there are certain benefits that come from having multiple characters with 300+ skill points that would essentially destroy the longevity of the game if people only "had to earn it once".
Besides, it would be freaking weird for a level 3 character start with a maxed out MG and Psijic skill line. Have a bunch of level 3s running around dropping meteors and undoing time...really? Why not just start everyone off at max level and have them choose a load out in a lobby system like a CoD game?
Okay, so first: I don't suggest you have to grind out every last skyshard on every character. Absolutely not. In my first post I even wrote that I wouldn't want skyshards to be account bound since that could make new characters too op, but when someone said it might be a possibility to lock them behind reaching level 50, that sounded like a good idea to me. I just wrote to someone else that I look at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to play, so maybe keep that in mind.
Anyway, my main concern were always the lorebooks, because to me they're one of the most tedious parts of the whole game. And yes, you're right, it would most certainly be a bad idea to unlock the skill line on new characters right away (I also said that before). I can't quite tell you what I'd do to counter that if you still want to keep the lorebooks, that's an issue, yes. Maybe really make the progress of the quest line itself not dependent on the progress of lorebooks but something else and unlock the skill line once you've completed the quests? Don't know, doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me either, and so, yeah, I can see how this would cause problems. But that still doesn't change the fact that the process of collecting stuff to further a skill line or to gain skill points is not exactly the pinnacle of innovation or the most fun thing I can imagine doing to level something up and is that not what this is actually about?
And also: Don't you think that it would, on the contrary, help the longevity of the game, if you could more easily access all kinds of stuff once you hit level 50 on your alts? For people like me who don't have that much time, it certainly would, since I could much more easily try all kinds of builds, races and classes out without knowing I'll have to run around collecting things again.
Ugh... no. It would be terrible for the longevity of the game. Main characters still exist and alts are nice side projects. If the focus is dwindled down solely to rushing to level cap then jumping into Trials, then you might as well go play WoW. That's how WoW is set up. Nothing to collect or work towards during the leveling process. Just a boring mad dash to end game "where the real game begins". Yuck. No. That would kill ESO.
Sorry, but I really can't see that, this is your opinion and yours alone, because obviously you do have a weird passion for collecting stuff for the 10th time. But how exactly would making these things accessible at a certain point for new toons shift the focus of the whole game solely to trials and other end-game content? Can't you still go and explore and quest at your leisure if you so please? Does anyone force you to do end-game stuff just because technically you have enough skill points at your disposal to do so? I really don't think so. So, pretty much, what this boils down to must be, that collecting stuff must be your hobby and you just want to do it on every alt. Alright, then. Let's just leave it at that because I really don't know what else to say to that.
Heh, I'm not sure who you're talking to. Literally nothing you just said had anything to do with what I said. Maybe we're talking to different people.
I'm pretty sure I said NOBODY NEEDS TO GRIND OUT SKYSHARDS ON ALTS BECAUSE YOU SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH SKILL POINTS TO DO END GAME CONTENT BY THE TIME YOU REACH MAX LEVEL.
But, you're stuck on the whole, "either they're account bound or I don't have any because there is no in-between" line of thinking, aren't you?
Honestly, if you are making it a point to grind skyshards in lieu of picking them up while doing the other stuff the game has to offer, because you have convinced yourself that you "have to have them for end game", then you deserve the frustration.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Srfrogg23 is just expressing what quite a few have expressed in the endless number of threads requesting this. The rest of us are tired of repeating ourselves.
Put a way point on the map after you discover a skyshard/mages guild book. That'd be fair.
If you're tired then just stop. It's fair to have things found via exploration be account bound and accessible at level 50. There is no argument against that, if fairness is all you care about. Because there is nothing unfair about having access to something where no value is gained in obtaining it again and again, at the cost of lost play time.
Alternately, I'd be entirely on board with this being handled as a voucher/Tel Var furnishing solution.
You buy Skyshard maps that are achievement gated using Vouchers or Tel Var, (like the way containers are). Only the owner can interact with them. You want the base game shards? You need to have collected all of them on one character for the achievement, then you spend 400 Vouchers or 400k Tel Var to unlock the collectible. You go to your house, you place it, each of your characters can interact with it to unlock those shards. DLC came out? New Chapter? New map. Expect to spend another 50V/50kTV for the small zones (like Hew's Bane or Mirkmire), and 100V/100kTV for large zones like Wrothgar and the Chapters. Each.
Stick 'em in your house. Collect 'em because they look neat, even after you've used them.Edited by starkerealm on March 22, 2019 6:16PM1
This discussion has been closed.