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About the High Elf sustain Passive
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Altmer had mag regen in 4.3.0 and was neither op nor the bis pve dps race. A much better approach would´ve been to simply look at the value of the mag restore and adjust it as necessary.
Additional Spell/Weapon damage AND sustain is something that is not going to happen as it clearly is against ZOS stated damage vs. sustain races goal. You can have either damage or sustain, not both. Altmer has Spell damage so no sustain for Magicka.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
If that's the case: then Altmer have been in violation of their rules since closed beta. Because they have had passive bonuses to both damage and sustain since the game's release.
In any case: it's a silly rule and let's not pretend that ZoS never decides to break their own rules. I remember when they said they were never going to abandon their subscription model.3 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
If that's the case: then Altmer have been in violation of their rules since closed beta. Because they have had passive bonuses to both damage and sustain since the game's release.
In any case: it's a silly rule and let's not pretend that ZoS never decides to break their own rules. I remember when they said they were never going to abandon their subscription model.
You don't understand it correctly. ZoS stated for this specific udpate that their goal is to give some races either sustain or damage, never both. They never said that this is their long-term vision or something, it's just case for this update.
Altmer is now some kind of highrolly card. Under specific circumstances with specific builds and setups you may achieve great results with Altmer. But generaly, Breton is a safe bet.
Edited by Olupajmibanan on March 4, 2019 2:06PM0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Additional Spell/Weapon damage AND sustain is something that is not going to happen as it clearly is against ZOS stated damage vs. sustain races goal. You can have either damage or sustain, not both. Altmer has Spell damage so no sustain for Magicka.
Would´ve loved to see this applied to all races then because I recall the Sustain races having 50% off the Damage races Damage passives, this obviously cannot stand because it goes against Zos balancing rules and Im sure pvp Bretons will be happy with better offstat Management
.
Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
If that's the case: then Altmer have been in violation of their rules since closed beta. Because they have had passive bonuses to both damage and sustain since the game's release.
In any case: it's a silly rule and let's not pretend that ZoS never decides to break their own rules. I remember when they said they were never going to abandon their subscription model.
You don't understand it correctly. ZoS stated for this specific udpate that their goal is to give some races either sustain or damage, never both. They never said that this is their long-term vision or something, it's just case for this update.
Altmer is now some kind of highrolly card. On specific builds and setups you may achieve great results with him. But generaly, Breton is a safe bet.
Thanks for the clarification. It still seems like a silly rule to me though, when ever this revelation occurred to them that no race should have both damage and sustain increases.
Edited by Jeremy on March 4, 2019 2:15PM0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Additional Spell/Weapon damage AND sustain is something that is not going to happen as it clearly is against ZOS stated damage vs. sustain races goal. You can have either damage or sustain, not both. Altmer has Spell damage so no sustain for Magicka.
Would´ve loved to see this applied to all races then because I recall the Sustain races having 50% off the Damage races Damage passives, this obviously cannot stand because it goes against Zos balancing rules and Im sure pvp Bretons will be happy with better offstat Management .
What are we defining as damage passives? If you are talking increases to max resource then what about tanking races for instance. Also max resources can also be considered sustain passive in that sense. If we are going to debate an issue let’s have clear definitions for what we are debating.0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
If that's the case: then Altmer have been in violation of their rules since closed beta. Because they have had passive bonuses to both damage and sustain since the game's release.
In any case: it's a silly rule and let's not pretend that ZoS never decides to break their own rules. I remember when they said they were never going to abandon their subscription model.
It's one of the major points in their write up for the racial changes in 4.3 but why bother with it...
It's not silly. It makes sense to make differentiate the races more, e.g. sustain races and damage races (and utility races). Before the changes why even bother with Bretons, Altmer and Dunmer did everything better because they had additional damage and sustain. Now Bretons fill the niche of a sustain Magicka race and benefit greatly by that. It's one of the stated design goals and they applied this to every race (for Stamina we have Orc on the damage and Redguard on the sustain).PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What are we defining as damage passives? If you are talking increases to max resource then what about tanking races for instance. Also max resources can also be considered sustain passive in that sense. If we are going to debate an issue let’s have clear definitions for what we are debating.
I would assume that a Damage passive is a passive that, in whatever way, directly increases your dps Output (included the directly because if left away one could easily argue that resource recovery passives are also a Damage passive because they enable one to run different Food or glyphs).
Those max resource passives being a Damage passive even got reinforced by Zos through the increase in maximum resources from the Champion Points System and if I recall correctly was also used to make a difference between the then best dps race khajit and other dps races which would get higher max resources while khajits Damage came through crit Chance mainly.
It is however true that a max resource passive does not only help dps Setups, but the same can be argued for a spell/weapon Damage passive because those buff healers too, same with the khajit increased crit Damage/healing.
Edit: Max resource, spell/weapon Damage and the khajit passive also apply to tanks since all will increase self healing and Damage (Damage is irrelevant for most tanks, but I know some tanks that do run dps Setups in endgame in fights [vmol offtank for instance on rakkhat]that allow one to do so)
Edited by Sanguinor2 on March 4, 2019 3:22PMPoliteness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
Doesn't Khajiit directly contradict this though by having tri-stat regen and a damage buff via Crit Damage?Argonian forever4 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
Doesn't Khajiit directly contradict this though by having tri-stat regen and a damage buff via Crit Damage?
Not really. I understand that Crit Damage can be seen as a damage passive (or it's a damage passive better to say) but it's not spell damage / weapon damage which was directly related to that. On top of that are the Khajiit bonuses for additional resources / regen very small in comparison to reflect them being a hybrid / versatile race. So yes, you're right that Khajiits' passive can be considered a DPS passive, nevertheless I think they're falling under another category.
Right now we have:
Sustain races: Redguard, Breton, Bosmer (maybe you can put Argonian and Imperial here too or list them as hybrids; for me they're hybrids but Red Diamond and Resourceful can be considered sustain passives)
Damage races: Altmer, Dunmer, Orc
Hybrid (regarding the sustain/damage thing): KhajiitEdited by Seraphayel on March 4, 2019 5:43PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I really think they actually got to a good spot here.
Altmer: Best mag DPS if you know your support is perfect.
Breton: Best PVE mag DPS for 95% of the playerbase. Sustain will never be an issue. Also great in PVP for races with poor regen (sorc and DK come to mind).
Dunmer: Best all around (they are the master race after all). Good for players that want to swap back and forth between mag and stam or would prefer the extra stats in their secondary resource in PVP. Fire resist is also very handy for a lot of content, especially if you go Vamp to make up for sustain. They are top 3 in damage for basically every spec in the game.
The only pushback is that unless you are pushing trial scores to the max, I think Dunmer>Altmer for most things. I was actually worried about Dunmer, but they are arguably a touch overturned now that the dust has settled. You could also argue that about breton sustain, but the lack of a spell damage passive makes that okay with me.4 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
Doesn't Khajiit directly contradict this though by having tri-stat regen and a damage buff via Crit Damage?
Not really. I understand that Crit Damage can be seen as a damage passive (or it's a damage passive better to say) but it's not spell damage / weapon damage which was directly related to that. On top of that are the Khajiit bonuses for additional resources / regen very small in comparison to reflect them being a hybrid / versatile race. So yes, you're right that Khajiits' passive can be considered a DPS passive, nevertheless I think they're falling under another category.
Right now we have:
Sustain races: Redguard, Breton, Bosmer (maybe you can put Argonian and Imperial here too or list them as hybrids; for me they're hybrids but Red Diamond and Resourceful can be considered sustain passives)
Damage races: Altmer, Dunmer, Orc
Hybrid (regarding the sustain/damage thing): Khajiit
And yet despite Khajiit's minuscule sustain/resources is able to out DPS several races that have higher resources and sustain due solely to their damage buff. It's still a contradiction.Argonian forever0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
Doesn't Khajiit directly contradict this though by having tri-stat regen and a damage buff via Crit Damage?
Not really. I understand that Crit Damage can be seen as a damage passive (or it's a damage passive better to say) but it's not spell damage / weapon damage which was directly related to that. On top of that are the Khajiit bonuses for additional resources / regen very small in comparison to reflect them being a hybrid / versatile race. So yes, you're right that Khajiits' passive can be considered a DPS passive, nevertheless I think they're falling under another category.
Right now we have:
Sustain races: Redguard, Breton, Bosmer (maybe you can put Argonian and Imperial here too or list them as hybrids; for me they're hybrids but Red Diamond and Resourceful can be considered sustain passives)
Damage races: Altmer, Dunmer, Orc
Hybrid (regarding the sustain/damage thing): Khajiit
And yet despite Khajiit's minuscule sustain/resources is able to out DPS several races that have higher resources and sustain due solely to their damage buff. It's still a contradiction.
No, it's exactly how it should be in my opinion. Some classes/builds fit better on race x, some classes/builds fit better on race y and some classes/builds fit better on race z. That's great and a lot better than the boring unison we had for years. It's just a contradiction when you suppose them to be weaker overall than other races which doesn't make sense balance-wise. Besides the three "hard-to-define" races (Nord, Argonian and Imperial) every race fits some playstyles and builds which is great.
So instead of going into the game and saying Magicka -> Altmer and Stamina -> Redguard you can go into detail and see which class benefits by/counters weaknesses of the races to even increase their potential. The good thing is, the difference between great picks (e.g Khajiit for Pet Sorcs) and BiS picks (e.g. Altmer for Pet Sorc) is small enough that it barely matters but still big enough that min-maxers have to theorycraft.Edited by Seraphayel on March 4, 2019 9:46PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
Altmer did not get screwed, yes they should get an more usable passive like shield strength like some suggested.Yea, changing the races wasn’t a bad idea. Ended up okay even if altmer got screwed.
Problem is whether intended or not people chose altmer for sustain pre-patch. Now it’s Breton. Then they got a useless passive reducing channeled time damage no one likes unless you’re a templar.
Either way - move on. I don’t see the issue. Altmer looked funny anyways so I don’t mind changing. Are there really Altmer lovers who only made Altmers pre-patch? They were annoying in Skyrim, especially the guy from the mage guild quest, so don’t mind not being associated with them anymore.
Keeping the magic regen would make them OP and required nerfs in other stats so an better survival passive would be nice.
Bosmer loss of stealth was pointless, stealth is like the 2K resources most have.
Khajiit need an small buff to make them more in line with Dunmer,
Keeping the magicka regen would not have made them OP. Being slightly better at something does not = OP.
If there was a good reason to strip high elves of their magicka regen bonuses I can't think of one.
It would be against ZOS own ruleset of either damage or sustain -> not going to happen so no point talking about it. Altmer won't get a Magicka sustain passive.
Doesn't Khajiit directly contradict this though by having tri-stat regen and a damage buff via Crit Damage?
Not really. I understand that Crit Damage can be seen as a damage passive (or it's a damage passive better to say) but it's not spell damage / weapon damage which was directly related to that. On top of that are the Khajiit bonuses for additional resources / regen very small in comparison to reflect them being a hybrid / versatile race. So yes, you're right that Khajiits' passive can be considered a DPS passive, nevertheless I think they're falling under another category.
Right now we have:
Sustain races: Redguard, Breton, Bosmer (maybe you can put Argonian and Imperial here too or list them as hybrids; for me they're hybrids but Red Diamond and Resourceful can be considered sustain passives)
Damage races: Altmer, Dunmer, Orc
Hybrid (regarding the sustain/damage thing): Khajiit
And yet despite Khajiit's minuscule sustain/resources is able to out DPS several races that have higher resources and sustain due solely to their damage buff. It's still a contradiction.
No, it's exactly how it should be in my opinion. Some classes/builds fit better on race x, some classes/builds fit better on race y and some classes/builds fit better on race z. That's great and a lot better than the boring unison we had for years. It's just a contradiction when you suppose them to be weaker overall than other races which doesn't make sense balance-wise. Besides the three "hard-to-define" races (Nord, Argonian and Imperial) every race fits some playstyles and builds which is great.
So instead of going into the game and saying Magicka -> Altmer and Stamina -> Redguard you can go into detail and see which class benefits by/counters weaknesses of the races to even increase their potential. The good thing is, the difference between great picks (e.g Khajiit for Pet Sorcs) and BiS picks (e.g. Altmer for Pet Sorc) is small enough that it barely matters but still big enough that min-maxers have to theorycraft.
So, it's okay for Khajiit to be a hybrid of damage and sustain but Altmer can't be a hybrid race because............why? Couldn't you lower Altmer's Spell Damage buff so that Altmer is the intermediary race between Breton's Sustain and Dunmer's damage much like Khajiit is the intermediary between Redguard/Bosmer's Sustain and Orc's Damage? Khajiit doesn't have a leg to stand on in terms of Magic races since the top is completely sealed off by Dunmer/Altmer/Breton supremacy where the only thing between them and bottom tier is Argonian, which as you said is hard to place but you named it a sustain race, despite the fact that Breton also being a sustain race is still top tier so why then are magic races excluded from this Hybrid division that is currently available for Stamina races?
The only part of your argument that holds true is when comparing Redguard and Bosmer in terms of class/build dynamics. Redguard will function much better on classes/builds that utilize Weapon Skills extensively, whereas Bosmer functions on classes/build that have more basis on Class Abilities but that's where the only distinctions are between ALL races as the dynamics between Orc vs Dunmer or Altmer vs Dunmer is a small max resource difference and racial fluff that does little to nothing that you could realistically use to differentiate them from one another in a meaningful way; Orc has more Health than Dunmer and runs faster, Dunmer has Fire Resistance and some magical prowess, Altmer takes less damage while channeling abilities. None of these is even of a basis to truly make anything unique with. The extra health is meaningless outside of Tank roles and providing a larger safety net for DPS roles, running faster is useful sure and you can make a quick scroll runner in PvP but that's about all its good for and its not that much better than Bosmer in that regard with their dodge passive, the Fire Resistance makes for a semi-safer Vampire build but Orc's extra Health and Healing passive accomplish the same thing so it's not unique, and Altmer's minuscule damage reduction on channeled abilities is useful for all of 2 classes, one of whom should be limiting the amount of times they need to channel for maximum effectiveness. That's not much diversity at all.
Then we get to the hard to define races that have no place in this supposed system as they're a mix bag that don't make any logical sense in any of this. Imperial is a hybrid race that can act like a Magic intermediary due to ridiculous levels of Max Resources and sustain but doesn't really fit the bill because it can also reach competitive Stamina DPS numbers with proper consideration so it's a clear outliner of the system. Nord has no luck in this regard, it's just flat out bad at everything not Tank related and Argonian is just bottom tier in everything now.
The entire argument just doesn't have any merit to it when it's just illogical in all regards.Edited by Silver_Strider on March 5, 2019 4:55AMArgonian forever3 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »It's still completely useless in PvE.
I've never run into stamina issues in PvE. And even if I do (because I screw up mechanically), 215 stamina regen (that's with 100% proc uptime) won't save me. It might be slightly useful for a new player, but once you learn the mechanics in dungeons/trials, stamina management becomes an afterthought.
This is still 100% a PvP passive.
I don't know. Thinking about Using high elf on a magical Templar tank for something different. The extra stam would be great for that.
As a tank, stamina ought to be higher than magicka so that shards/orbs return stamina. Spell recharge would then return magicka.
He was talking about Magicka Templar Tanks - likely ones who rely more on self heals to stay alive rather than focusing on damage and stamina-based abilities. And he's not wrong. The new passive is fairly useful for those kind of builds. I find myself having to heavy attack with my sword a little less than I used to. So it's not a worthless passive for those kind of builds.
Blocking is still heavily reliant on stamina, and stamina recovery is halted while you are blocking.
Shards/orbs are a necessity in endgame content to restore the resource you use to block, which is stamina in almost all cases (unless you are double slotting a frost staff, in which case you are not using puncture, in which case you are not doing end game content).
Every tank uses magicka skills for self heals and buffs and utility spells, and no tank specs into stamina to focus on damage and stamina based abilities. They spec into stamina to increase the number of attacks they can block and so that shards and orbs can restore this resource, because they are unable to spec into stamina recovery as effectively as they are magicka recovery.
Of course there are tanks out there who lean more into damage and use stamina-based abilities. What a ridiculous comment. It's sole purpose isn't just for "blocking" for every tank out there that exist.
But anyway... and back to my original point: regardless of your disbelief in their existence - the Spell Charge passive is actually useful for Magicka Templar tanks who invest more into magicka than staminia for greater self-healing. I know because I am one - and have successfully tanked all manner of content including veteran DLC. So believe me when I tell you they do indeed exist. Not everyone plays the same exact "meta build" tank. That's a misnomer that gets thrown around on these forums way too much.
I apologize for offending you. I did make a broad generalization that I should have phrased better into "typically, every tank..."
I am surprised to hear that rune focus and repentence provide enough stamina to make up for the lack of shards and orbs restoring stamina. In this particular very niche build, spell recharge could conceivably benefit altmer magicka templar tanks, as long as they need help sustaining their stamina pool without shards/orbs granting stamina return.
And of course some tanks spec into stamina for damage dealing capabilities. I actually even have a tank that does this, albeit only during solo content when I don't have damage dealers to drain the mobs health for me. I was foolish to suggest otherwise.
What I meant to say was that in most group content scenarios, the reason why tanks spec into stamina is so that orbs/shards restore stamina and provide them with more blocks/break frees. Most group content tanks choose not to focus on their own damage potential and instead focus on providing more utility for the group, as focusing on their own damage dealing capabilities would boost their own dps by a fair amount, but boost the entire group's dps by a very marginal amount. Oftentimes focusing more on group support would boost each of the group's damage dealer's dps by a greater amount than the tank's dps would be boosted by focusing on their own dps, resulting in greater overall group dps.
Forgive my incompetence.
I'm not sure if this response was serious or not. But I'll treat it like it was and risk looking like a fool if for no other reason than forum camaraderie.
You didn't offend me. In the least. So don't worry about that. If I came off as offended it was likely just due to the fact I"m frustrated with the way video game forums are typically folded around the current "meta build" used in a couple of endgame trials and how that must become the context for which every discussion operates in.
Sustaining stamina is admittedly an issue for tanks - and certainly for those who invest more into magicka than stamina. I wasn't trying to disagree with that part of your comment. Sustaining block is a real issue - especially since they were kind enough to strip tanks of their stamina regen. And I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. My only point was that the new Altimer Passive Spell Recharge does aid certain niche builds as you describe them who invest more heavily into magicka than stamina. It doesn't help them to the point that sustaining stamina while having to frequently block is no longer an issue of course. But it does modestly help.
I'm of the belief if you are going to play as a Templar Tank you may as well go all out on your self-healing capabilities and invest heavily in your healing potential. Otherwise I can't really think of a good reason not to just roll as a dragon knight instead.
I agree with Jeremy and this is why I have a Templar tank that goes all out in self healing. I can do all content except trials. If I do trials then I bring my Stam DK. I am sure I could do a normal trial with a mag Templar tank but as a general rule only bring my DK to them. As someone with 15 characters I like to play each a little different so as not to become bored with only 3 different roles.
Happy gaming
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »The entire argument just doesn't have any merit to it when it's just illogical in all regards.
I get it, you don't like the changes. Your races are suffering (in your opinion) by the changes. ZOS vision for the racial changes is not your vision. That's totally fine. But it doesn't change anything because you're not ZOS and you don't have any legitimation or power to change it. You don't have to agree with every design choice they make as much as I am disagreeing with them on a lot of other things (build diversity for example).
Honestly, what's even the point of discussing this anymore? The changes are live. That's how it is and how it will be for a very long time. Sure you can put more hours into this fruitless discussion with the same arguments going back and forth again and again, they had a stated design goal and in their opinion they succeeded with it (which is true for the most part). See, as much as you dislike the changes I like them as much. That's why it's just two contrary opinions that don't have any weight because ZOS already settled with the changes.
Edited by Seraphayel on March 5, 2019 8:44AMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
gepe87✭✭✭✭✭
✭Almer should have 129sd+129 MagRecoveryGepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General
If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language1 -
lagrue✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tl;dr
People who have different opinions than me are stupid.
Nice bait thread."You must defeat me every time. I need defeat you only once"4 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.
Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)
Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.
No no, you got it all wrong, ESO is just about striking that dummy!
High elves got one of the best utility passives in the game.Edited by MikaHR on March 5, 2019 8:50AM1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So there are a lot of people complaining that a magicka High Elf build will now restore stamina rather than magicka and while I understand people's responses let me explain why they are a little stupid and frankly what you currently have is rather nice. The current state of the passive is rather good for almost every form of content. It may not benefit you in a parse but frankly parsing is not everything plz stop being a target dummy hero and get out there in the world. In every form of content you will need to block and dodge and even break free sometimes. This sustain passive finally allows magicka builds to sustain their stamina reliably, a issue that's been around and debated for awhile.
Many will complain this is a PvP change and while it will have more benefit in PvP that is simply not the case. In vMA dodging, blocking, bashing, and sometimes breaking free is all required. While most the time one does not run into stam sustain issues as a magicka build in vMA this will allow you to do more blocking and dodging. (more than just having some extra max stamina)
Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff. The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.
No no, you got it all wrong, ESO is just about striking that dummy!
High elves got one of the best utility passives in the game.
Stamina regen is one of the most useless PvE perks.5 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭By that logic ALL racial passives are completely usleless because you can do anything without any of them.Edited by MikaHR on March 5, 2019 12:54PM1
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wrong.
Main stat and regen are performance-defining. Dps parse and stuff. The more, the better.
Utility, like the stam regen in question, doesn't increase that performance. Question is, does it help otherwise? And as people have been doing very well without it, the answer is a clear no.
Know what good utility is? Health. Orcs have it. But for some reason, High Elves weren't allowed to have that. *shrugs*3 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭Wrong, health doesnt improve performance....or does anything really.
Stamina regen >>>>>>>>>> health, completely dogding 7-8k damage attack = 7-8x orc "uber utiltiy passive"Edited by MikaHR on March 5, 2019 2:22PM1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »The entire argument just doesn't have any merit to it when it's just illogical in all regards.
I get it, you don't like the changes. Your races are suffering (in your opinion) by the changes. ZOS vision for the racial changes is not your vision. That's totally fine. But it doesn't change anything because you're not ZOS and you don't have any legitimation or power to change it. You don't have to agree with every design choice they make as much as I am disagreeing with them on a lot of other things (build diversity for example).
Honestly, what's even the point of discussing this anymore? The changes are live. That's how it is and how it will be for a very long time. Sure you can put more hours into this fruitless discussion with the same arguments going back and forth again and again, they had a stated design goal and in their opinion they succeeded with it (which is true for the most part). See, as much as you dislike the changes I like them as much. That's why it's just two contrary opinions that don't have any weight because ZOS already settled with the changes.
That doesn't mean we can't criticize the changes, especially when ZOS is being hypocritical with their reasoning. The goal of the patch was to open up racial options for roles but all they did was rearranged the meta races a little with very little actually changing. I don't even have an Altmer but that doesn't mean I'm fine with Altmer healers getting screwed out of their sustain, especially when there was a solid alternative that would have been fine as well.
Being complacent and just accepting bad changes will just cause these bad decisions to branch into other areas of the game. So you can go ahead and quit arguing if you want, those of us that actually care about these changes will continue to argue.Argonian forever3