I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree that people abusing the system is ZOS' fault here.

Rest of the PSA is fine.

remilafo wrote: »

Hello boys and girls

This is in regards to the whole fake tank, fake dps or fake healer dungeon roles thing.

Everyone needs to chill out on this subject. Regardless of which camp you fall into "role matters" or "play as you want" people. The culprit here is actually ZOS with how ESO is build.

You hardline "roles matter" people who vote kick anyone not in a traditional role, you're a problem and create a toxic community.

On the other hand you hardline "play as you want" people need to realize that some parts of this game it does matter. 3hr to finish a dungeon is not okay! .. so when you queue as tank on vsc you better be a tank.

The point is relax people, this divide is ZOS fault. They give just a wonderfully customizable game and then decide to fit us into dungeon rolls.

Majority of content is easy enough that roles don't matter but some content it does. As a player you need to know when and where these difference are, stop persecuting people based on which camp you side on.

ZOS I personally found the queue with multiple roles better than the forcing we have now.

It's not ZoS's fault though. They don't force people to lie about their combat role. There is only one person and one person alone to blame for a DPS character with no taunt and crap defense signing up for a tank role so they can cut in line of other more honest damage-dealers. And that's the person doing it.

They deserve the vote kick. If anyone is a problem and contributing to a "toxic community" it's selfish players who abuse the system and lie about their roles so they can cut in line of others.

It's a really simple and easy to understand concept. If you want to sign up as a tank - then play as a tank. If you want to sign up as a healer - then play as a healer. Who would have thought such common sense could be so complicated.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

IDK fake healers give real ones a bad name.

Yeah, all those sorcs trying to heal. Don't they know only templars can heal?

Pff, the nerve.

ZOS: [removes third bar] That'll teach em'

Why are there two threads about this? Surely one was plenty.

Based on the responses, it seems the "play your role" camp people are here in force.

There is an argument to be made about the player having partial responsibility for stating a role they are not...
But here the thing though and why i say it's the game design fault instead of the player. More classical MMO had specific classes that did those roles (ex. Paladin was a classical tank) and IF you were a paladin YOU WERE a TANK, there is no IF and BUTS about it.

But with ESO the class customization is vast and you the player are encouraged to play your character the way you want. So then with this motive why are there class roles for dungeons? Especially when most can be completed without classical trinity roles?

The point of this post is that you can't mix a "play as you want" game with traditional endgame PvE activities that you see in other MMOs, complete with DPS checks, heal checks, and tanking checks.

Zenimax tried to do something different with ESO, but they only half-committed to their ideas. The DLC dungeons, the glorious trainwreck that they are, are a fantastic example of that.

The latest 2 can actually be completed by casuals with enough perseverance so it's a step in the right direction, but they desperately need to stop picking and choosing as to what aspects of what MMOs they're ripping off and decide on a "standard" for their dungeons on a per mode basis. Allow players who "play as you want" to finish the darn things, or at least understand what they're getting into.

When i started playing MMOs, dungeons were critical for me in eventually learning how to play the game at a higher level. They were a stepping stone, harder than overland but easier than raids. If ESO is to have any success at getting their ~85% casual population into doing any endgame activities beyond normal vanilla dungeons, they need to re-think their difficulty scales and keep the truly challenging stuff to trials. IF eso had been my first MMO, i don't think i ever would have improved. I probably would have gotten rekt in a bunch of DLC dungeons shortly after hitting 50 and quit.

How about 1 mini trial and 1 dungeon per release instead of 2 dungeons? Dungeon can be more in-line with an easier "II" dungeon so that it's more accessible to casuals to learn and grow in, and the trial can be for endgame raiders. Everybody wins, and maybe ZOS actually gets some decent completion rates out of it.

"Play as you want" does not include "I want to do veteran content while neither tanking, healing, nor doing damage".
A fight needs a few functions performed. Someone has to survive heavy hits, someone has to hold the boss' attention, someone has to keep others alive, and someone has to actually kill stuff.
How you do that, can vary wildly in ESO. You can use every class to do every job listed above. In most content, you can swap and switch and combine roles as you like. Only in harder dungeons, you need to specialise.
But someone has to do those jobs, and the role assignment is a rough way to make sure that someone signed up to do them. If the guy signed up as healer does 50% of the damage, no-one will complain (except maybe the healer ) - as long as he fulfils his job of healing people. If he doesn't, he shouldn't have signed up for, you know, healing the group.
The Holy Trinity is a rough categorisation of tasks that need to be done in a fight, nothing more.

That is not preventing you from "playing as you want". "Play as you want" does not mean "I want to sign up for a job and then just refuse to do it".

That said, "play nice" is a very useful reminder in any case, and sometimes people try to kick others for the weirdest and most petty reasons.

Some excellent points made by excellent players.

Onto something more practical perhaps..

We used to be able to select multiple roles while queue-ing for a dungeon. This was changed to just ONE role some patches ago.

I personally preferred the multiple roles selection.. What are your thoughts on

- Why was it changed to One role initially? (include any reason, even forum based ones)
- Has it actually solved or resolved anything?
- has it made anything worse?
- If you were in the position of authority how would you solve this issue or remove the role selection completely?

I'll go first..

I think it was changed for political reasons (a loud and toxic minority on the forums complaining about "fake" insert class here).

I don't think the change did anything towards solve the principle issue it was created for, BUT it does at least put more accountability on the payer whom selected that role in the first place. IE you selected DPS and hence you got into the dungeon as DPS... While before you select tank, healer and DPS, get in the dungeon as "healer" ,, the player could claim accident or ignorance or unexpected healer role. IE the player doesn't quite know exactly what role they will end up with.

I actually don't think it made anything worse, situation seem vastly unchanged.

I would remove the role selection completely.. I trust the player base is smart enough to govern themselves and problem solve to complete the dungeon.

Cheers!

Varana wrote: »

I wouldn't have called it "political", and not only a forum-based "toxic" issue, but otherwise, I concur with your points about the reason and its effects.

However, I don't agree that removing the roles would be a viable solution. If they were to remove the roles, you would end up in a dungeon with four DDs who can only DD most of the time. That's obvious nonsense. Or theoretically, with four tanks who need an hour to slowly wear down Kr'agh.
Remember, it's a tool for PUGs. In pre-mades, you can do whatever you fancy. Making sure that the basic roles are filled by someone, is a necessity.

Exactly.

If people want to experiment with different party make-ups nothing is stopping them. They can simply set up their own dungeon runs and bring what ever character builds they fancy. ZOS is in no way preventing them from doing that if they want.

remilafo wrote: »

Some excellent points made by excellent players.

Onto something more practical perhaps..

We used to be able to select multiple roles while queue-ing for a dungeon. This was changed to just ONE role some patches ago.

I personally preferred the multiple roles selection.. What are your thoughts on

- Why was it changed to One role initially? (include any reason, even forum based ones)
- Has it actually solved or resolved anything?
- has it made anything worse?
- If you were in the position of authority how would you solve this issue or remove the role selection completely?

I'll go first..

I think it was changed for political reasons (a loud and toxic minority on the forums complaining about "fake" insert class here).

I don't think the change did anything towards solve the principle issue it was created for, BUT it does at least put more accountability on the payer whom selected that role in the first place. IE you selected DPS and hence you got into the dungeon as DPS... While before you select tank, healer and DPS, get in the dungeon as "healer" ,, the player could claim accident or ignorance or unexpected healer role. IE the player doesn't quite know exactly what role they will end up with.

I actually don't think it made anything worse, situation seem vastly unchanged.

I would remove the role selection completely.. I trust the player base is smart enough to govern themselves and problem solve to complete the dungeon.

Cheers!

I used to queue up as all three roles when doing random normals, since i can instantly change gear/skills with alpha gear whenever I wanted and get the job done. However, from my experience the dungeon finder would almost always throw me into a dungeon as a tank and rarely as a healer. There are too many DPS players in the queue so when someone offers to be a tank you end up waiting less than a second at times even when you choose a specific dungeon. There is also a short supply of healers so queueing as a healer can also be instant, but there can also be a wait time of up to 10 minutes for a random dungeon or even longer for something specific that isn't a pledge. When considering all these factors choosing multiple roles is redundant, since you'll for the most part either be tanking or healing.

Doesn't really solve anything, but as you said players are more accountable for their role selection.

Hard to tell if it made dungeon runs worse, since sometimes I'll carry a dungeon and not really care about the efforts of others players in the group who may be a "fake". However, as other people on the forums have mentioned it has made it easier it justify kicking someone out of a group.

Role selection is important, since people who want to tank should be allowed to tank, people who want to heal should be allowed to heal, and some DPS just want to focus on killing adds and performing their rotation without having to worry too much about keeping themselves alive. However, if it were up to me I would create a alternative queue where 4 people regardless of role selection are simply placed into a group together. Essentially instant queue for those who don't care about traditional roles. In this scenario if you die, you die. The only person you can blame is yourself, since you should not be expecting heals and if the boss comes at ya you best be prepared to do what you must to survive.

remilafo wrote: »

Some excellent points made by excellent players.

Onto something more practical perhaps..

We used to be able to select multiple roles while queue-ing for a dungeon. This was changed to just ONE role some patches ago.

I personally preferred the multiple roles selection.. What are your thoughts on

- Why was it changed to One role initially? (include any reason, even forum based ones)
- Has it actually solved or resolved anything?
- has it made anything worse?
- If you were in the position of authority how would you solve this issue or remove the role selection completely?

I'll go first..

I think it was changed for political reasons (a loud and toxic minority on the forums complaining about "fake" insert class here).

I don't think the change did anything towards solve the principle issue it was created for, BUT it does at least put more accountability on the payer whom selected that role in the first place. IE you selected DPS and hence you got into the dungeon as DPS... While before you select tank, healer and DPS, get in the dungeon as "healer" ,, the player could claim accident or ignorance or unexpected healer role. IE the player doesn't quite know exactly what role they will end up with.

I actually don't think it made anything worse, situation seem vastly unchanged.

I would remove the role selection completely.. I trust the player base is smart enough to govern themselves and problem solve to complete the dungeon.

Cheers!

This is the actual dev comment on the change:

This change was made for a few reasons. Most importantly, it streamlines the queueing system so groups can be created faster. It’s also in an effort to address the issue where players would queue as multiple roles and get assigned the role they just can’t do, leading to bad group experiences. Now, if a player chooses a role, they are explicitly saying they are equipped to perform that role so there is less downtime at the start of the dungeon waiting for players to figure out which role they were assigned and making adjustments.

I also fail to see how wanting people to queue for the role they intend to do makes someone toxic.

Has it fixed anything: no, not really.

Did it make anything worse: nope

As others have said if you removed the role selections then you can end up with multiple tanks or healers in one group. It would just make things worse. My solution: either allow players to also choose the group composition they want or change the group finder into a lobby where players can post what they want to do and others can join (think old monster hunter lobbies or the Overwatch group finder).

Ogou wrote: »

My solution: either allow players to also choose the group composition they want or change the group finder into a lobby where players can post what they want to do and others can join (think old monster hunter lobbies or the Overwatch group finder).

Im not familiar with the grouping systems from those games. Can you explain briefly?