zvavi wrote: »

Ok. So I read a lot of complaints about dlc dungeons being too hard by some players. And git gud comments from others. I wanted to express my opinion on it.

1. The git good comment. A lot of those that are using l2p and git good comments are people that have gone through many wipes in vet dlc dungeons. Many. The git gud comment usually don't come from "you don't know how to play" but from the understanding, that those dungeons need hard work and determination to complete. That you need to go in there and learn mechanics and die. Die. Die. Die.

PS: ye I got kicked from some vet dlc dungeons for saying "hey guys I don't know mechanics so please explain them before bosses", but some runs people explained and helped, and it was fun! Never again am I tanking vet dlc dungeons with 999 ping spikes though, vMoS . (And yes, still passed it, and I was the tank)

FierceSam wrote: »

D

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Zathras wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult.

Thing is, it is almost always meant as a dismissive insult.

I read your entire post, and I agree (mostly) with what you are saying, aside from the above.

See, there are more constructive ways to convey to someone that they should improve. The best way is to show them, to take the time and do some mentoring. While that is more applicable for guilds, it does rarely happen in pugs by the more patient and extraordinary players. The next best way is to tell them, in voice chat or text, a way they can make the encounter better, or improve themselves in some way.

Do you know what "Git gud" and "L2P" do to someone who is new, or learning, or wanting to improve? It shuts them down. It is a deterrent, and they become less inclined to do that content again, let alone putting themselves out there to be social. Check out the ESO Reddit, and you'll come across multitudes of stories of people who were genuinely emotionally affected by this happening to them.

Yes, work towards your goals. Yes, accept that you will be defeated. But, making a lengthy post that buffers the message that "Git Gud" and "L2P" aren't negative messages? That they are positive, and incentives to improve yourself? Sorry man. I honestly do hear what you are saying, that you feel you are communicating helpful information, but you aren't.

Being on the receiving end of one of those comments isn't enlightening. It doesn't spur on a drive towards greatness. It makes you want to log out of the game and take a break.

This 100% ^^^

This 1,000,000%

tl:dr try being constructive rather than patronising

lokulin wrote: »

Kudos to you for working hard and getting those achievements. I think you are missing the point a lot of people are making when they say the dungeons are too hard. The best games are those that put you in the "zone of proximal development" or to put it another way, are enjoyably frustrating. If things are too easy people don't learn anything and most likely they really aren't enjoying it that much, just grinding. If things are too hard, there isn't any try harder, there is logging off, going to another game, no learning and no fun. The zone where people learn and have fun best is different for different individuals. Obviously for you it is higher. That is great for you.

Personally I think some of the new DLC dungeons are too hard not because I don't think with enough patience and luck I could do all the harder and esoteric achievements but because I think ZOS has misjudged the zone of proximal development for the average player and is catering too much for those at the top end of the bell curve. I don't have hard data to back up my claim but my anecdotal evidence is the difficulty the average pug has with most of the newer DLCs let alone hard modes or no death achievements.

Of course people will say I should not pug but only do DLCs with guild mates or friends but I'd argue that if you pug enough you get a good cross section of player abilities. I have definitely pugged with some really great teams pulling big DPS numbers and really knowing the mechanics. I have also pugged with some terrible teams (of all CP levels) that wipe constantly and can hardly fight their way out of a paper bag. The majority of them tho are average, and really not much different to a random guild run. Those are the ones that might clear the content after a few wipes but would really struggle and no doubt probably never achieve a no death or hard mode. Compare this to the non DLC content where I have cleared every no death, speed and hard mode with pugs, multiple times.

Once again, I've got no problem with harder content, but I do feel that once you have cleared all the base game dungeons none of of the DLC dungeons cater to average players.

Personally, I am unlikely to buy the new dungeon DLC (and let my eso+ lapse) not because I think I wouldn't be able to do it with enough time and effort but because most of the dungeons I run are with pugs (I play at odd times so can't always be on when friends and familiar guild mates are on), and I know the average player is going to really struggle making the whole experience more frustrating than fun.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

See, I am lucky. Through either good choices or whatever i ended up with a group that accepts my crazy nature and are probably as crazy as i am.

On PTS we went straight in on vet Frostvault, because norms rarely teach enough to be valid. Smashed the 1st boss, wiped a couple times second boss, wiped more 3rd boss....

We had to stop run 1 at the 4th boss.

Run 2 we died some more, learned some more and called it on the last boss as i had work the following morning.

And in there each time, even though we were dying and learning, it was a blast.

Going in blind and figuring out the mechs and strategies to beat it is among the most fun i have on this game.

I don't understand when people watch lots of vids of it and read the mechs beforehand as i feel it ruins the experience. But people find enjoyment in their own ways i suppose.

If people find ways to do what they want to achieve in the game (without exploits/cheating etc) then more power to them. Be that vet completion, trials, Emp in PvP, flawless conqueror etc.

When we know the mechs and can teach them, then we do. But we take them in for the experience so they learn as they go or they die, and then learn.

Starlock wrote: »

For the folks who say it is easy, could you please provide more information about yourself given how relative "easy" is? No offense intended, but I don't really care to hear from the competitive elite who have done a bunch of vet trial clears (including hard mode) or who routinely do DLC dungeons on vet (including hard mode). Of course it is easy for you. Would the player who doesn't run dungeons that often, plays mostly for fun, doesn't fuss about gear, doesn't min-max, isn't a competitive gamer, and so on... would THEY find it easy? For perspective, there is not a single DLC dungeon I would call "easy" as a non-competitive, non power gamer type of player. I would label them as "challenging" and some of them as "brutal." Color me skeptical that these ones are "easy."