I don't want to be mean about it, but dlc dungeons

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Jhalin wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Ok. So I read a lot of complaints about dlc dungeons being too hard by some players. And git gud comments from others. I wanted to express my opinion on it.

1. The git good comment. A lot of those that are using l2p and git good comments are people that have gone through many wipes in vet dlc dungeons. Many. The git gud comment usually don't come from "you don't know how to play" but from the understanding, that those dungeons need hard work and determination to complete. That you need to go in there and learn mechanics and die. Die. Die. Die.

2. First time I tanked vSCP, I got killed. Again. And again. And again. It was the dungeon that thought me that I need to learn to tank, asap. It was hard and challenging, and to be honest? I am happy it was not a pug group. Second time it was a pug group, still passed it.

3. After doing it many times. Mostly pugging it. Most of the runs end up with us finishing the dungeon. I had runs with people that didn't know mechanics and couldn't understand English well. 3 of those who were there first time. Dd's with barely 30k DPS combined. Last boss runs when I ended up the only person alive few times during the fight that we passed. (I usually tank it when I pug because hardest role imo). I never kicked a person. Nor did I quit. All mechanics were passable for new players to the dungeon. We managed to pass it. I believe in that statement for most vet dlc content, excluding vFH, but I think it is because I didn't do it enough times. Exclude vWGT too, since you really need either god level coordination or 20k DPS on each dd to be able to do it(with a good tank) or 35k if the tank is lacking.

4. For dungeons you do first time, you should learn them with guildies in voice. Even if they don't know them yet, because yes, it is a known fact that pugging vet dlc is a harsh thing, and needs at least one if not two members that know what they are doing to pass them well.

5. So other than dying. And dying. And dying. There is no other way to pass vet dlc. You, the people that are complaining, are totally right. DLC vet dungeons are totally challenging. and even if it feels like rng hates you and that you got wiped because of stupid random one shot mechanic, some people don't die from them that often or at all. It means you can get used to them too.

6. Please. If you pug those things. And you don't know mechanics. Say so in chat. If they plan on kicking those who don't know anyway, you will be kicked later on anyway. Better save wipes and frustration from people that are willing to stay and explain them. I called a guy an idiot because he lied about knowing mechanics. And then explained them. Finished the dungeon.

7. Some people don't have maelstrom weapons because they didn't manage to complete it. Those that are determined enough have them. Same with vet dlc dungeons. True, they are not easy. True they can be frustrating on your first run. But I almost managed to do no death in vSCP while the tank was there first time as tank and we were 3 dd's. Randomly. No plans on it what's so ever. Still was a speed run. (Death was one of the easier mechanics, the tank forgot to run to shield after Ice dudes). And one of the members were a dd which is afraid of this content like beast from fire. He thinks he plays bad and had barely 22k DPS when I started running vSCP with him (after making him punch a dummy for a while he is very happy with his growing damage on stamsorc without maelstrom bow, altmer, 32k and growing). And now he happily joins if I need some more hands. Honestly? If he can? Everyone can. Because he is one of those who complain it is to hard. He is one of those who are afraid of dying and don't want to pull the team back with "lack of skill". Also run it with NB tank 300 cp lady that has left our guild for some reason (still heartbroken, need more main tanks in my guild). I don't remember any wipes. Probably because was long ago, but 100% not more than 3 wipes. All of number 7, is connected back to numbers 1 2 and 3. It is possible. For those who try enough. Yes. It is end game content.

I mean. For all those who knows undertale. For some things. You gotta have DETERMINATION. So please. Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult. Either you have the determination and possibility to do it (old age and some extreme health problems are the only thing that comes to mind that can stop you from managing with determination). Or you don't try enough. And don't plan to.

PS: ye I got kicked from some vet dlc dungeons for saying "hey guys I don't know mechanics so please explain them before bosses", but some runs people explained and helped, and it was fun! Never again am I tanking vet dlc dungeons with 999 ping spikes though, vMoS . (And yes, still passed it, and I was the tank)

participation trophies are to blame it taught a whole genration it does not matter if you win or lose just show up and stand there and you will be rewarded

Do you forget what is the generation that gave out those participation trophys?

The generation of prideful “we’re the best” idiots who think their spawn is a gift to the world, who also argue with cashiers like they’ve been slighted when their 50¢ coupon won’t work on the wrong item

But the participation trophies sure didn’t do much to make hard work and effort feel rewarding for those who put effort in, and the one who didn’t were given reason think not doing anything is still worthy of the same rewards as someone who put in work and effort to succeed

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say? Could you explain more?

Jhalin

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Ok. So I read a lot of complaints about dlc dungeons being too hard by some players. And git gud comments from others. I wanted to express my opinion on it.

1. The git good comment. A lot of those that are using l2p and git good comments are people that have gone through many wipes in vet dlc dungeons. Many. The git gud comment usually don't come from "you don't know how to play" but from the understanding, that those dungeons need hard work and determination to complete. That you need to go in there and learn mechanics and die. Die. Die. Die.

2. First time I tanked vSCP, I got killed. Again. And again. And again. It was the dungeon that thought me that I need to learn to tank, asap. It was hard and challenging, and to be honest? I am happy it was not a pug group. Second time it was a pug group, still passed it.

3. After doing it many times. Mostly pugging it. Most of the runs end up with us finishing the dungeon. I had runs with people that didn't know mechanics and couldn't understand English well. 3 of those who were there first time. Dd's with barely 30k DPS combined. Last boss runs when I ended up the only person alive few times during the fight that we passed. (I usually tank it when I pug because hardest role imo). I never kicked a person. Nor did I quit. All mechanics were passable for new players to the dungeon. We managed to pass it. I believe in that statement for most vet dlc content, excluding vFH, but I think it is because I didn't do it enough times. Exclude vWGT too, since you really need either god level coordination or 20k DPS on each dd to be able to do it(with a good tank) or 35k if the tank is lacking.

4. For dungeons you do first time, you should learn them with guildies in voice. Even if they don't know them yet, because yes, it is a known fact that pugging vet dlc is a harsh thing, and needs at least one if not two members that know what they are doing to pass them well.

5. So other than dying. And dying. And dying. There is no other way to pass vet dlc. You, the people that are complaining, are totally right. DLC vet dungeons are totally challenging. and even if it feels like rng hates you and that you got wiped because of stupid random one shot mechanic, some people don't die from them that often or at all. It means you can get used to them too.

6. Please. If you pug those things. And you don't know mechanics. Say so in chat. If they plan on kicking those who don't know anyway, you will be kicked later on anyway. Better save wipes and frustration from people that are willing to stay and explain them. I called a guy an idiot because he lied about knowing mechanics. And then explained them. Finished the dungeon.

7. Some people don't have maelstrom weapons because they didn't manage to complete it. Those that are determined enough have them. Same with vet dlc dungeons. True, they are not easy. True they can be frustrating on your first run. But I almost managed to do no death in vSCP while the tank was there first time as tank and we were 3 dd's. Randomly. No plans on it what's so ever. Still was a speed run. (Death was one of the easier mechanics, the tank forgot to run to shield after Ice dudes). And one of the members were a dd which is afraid of this content like beast from fire. He thinks he plays bad and had barely 22k DPS when I started running vSCP with him (after making him punch a dummy for a while he is very happy with his growing damage on stamsorc without maelstrom bow, altmer, 32k and growing). And now he happily joins if I need some more hands. Honestly? If he can? Everyone can. Because he is one of those who complain it is to hard. He is one of those who are afraid of dying and don't want to pull the team back with "lack of skill". Also run it with NB tank 300 cp lady that has left our guild for some reason (still heartbroken, need more main tanks in my guild). I don't remember any wipes. Probably because was long ago, but 100% not more than 3 wipes. All of number 7, is connected back to numbers 1 2 and 3. It is possible. For those who try enough. Yes. It is end game content.

I mean. For all those who knows undertale. For some things. You gotta have DETERMINATION. So please. Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult. Either you have the determination and possibility to do it (old age and some extreme health problems are the only thing that comes to mind that can stop you from managing with determination). Or you don't try enough. And don't plan to.

PS: ye I got kicked from some vet dlc dungeons for saying "hey guys I don't know mechanics so please explain them before bosses", but some runs people explained and helped, and it was fun! Never again am I tanking vet dlc dungeons with 999 ping spikes though, vMoS . (And yes, still passed it, and I was the tank)

participation trophies are to blame it taught a whole genration it does not matter if you win or lose just show up and stand there and you will be rewarded

Do you forget what is the generation that gave out those participation trophys?

The generation of prideful “we’re the best” idiots who think their spawn is a gift to the world, who also argue with cashiers like they’ve been slighted when their 50¢ coupon won’t work on the wrong item

But the participation trophies sure didn’t do much to make hard work and effort feel rewarding for those who put effort in, and the one who didn’t were given reason think not doing anything is still worthy of the same rewards as someone who put in work and effort to succeed

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say? Could you explain more?

I’ll skip the America-specific culture of Baby Boomers because it can cause a massive headache due to previous mentioned pride issues. But I’ll sum up the issues with “participation trophies” and similar concepts.

It has some side effects. The achieving and intelligent kids, who are either 1) talented or 2) dedicated, start learning their achievements will be devalued and overlooked because of “fairness” to kids who don’t put in the same effort, and get demoralized.

The ones who aren’t smart enough to realize that they’re just being handed a trophy for “fairness” rather than any real thing they did to earn it, turn into some entitled little monsters because they’re being rewarded for not doing anything to improve.

Group 1 gets past early education phases of life and realizes that their talents and effort do in fact get them ahead. Group 2 sees Group 1 doing well because of their efforts and talents and feels slighted because they’ve been taught from a young age that they should be getting the same advantages despite them not doing anything to improve themselves.

Of course there’s many who fall out of either category and er into “entitled brat who can’t recognize the value of hard work because they’ve gotten ahead based on a natural talent” or “unmotivated self-aware person who realizes they won’t get what they won’t work for and is ok with that”

In the context of ESO, Group 1 consists of theorycrafters, end-game raiders, and any person practicing and improving themselves for whatever content they’re working toward

Group 2 consists of “I don’t want to keep trying to get better or ask for help or learn mechanics, just give me the gear/skin/motif/achievement” which can be many types of players. It can be PvEers that want Caltrops but refuse to PvP. It can be casual PvEers that demand a solo instance for everything because they don’t want to reach out to gather a group. It can be a PvPer who won’t touch battlegrounds but wants the style pages.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Jhalin good response, thank you. I am of the opinion that people have always been like that though, the way you have described, the phenomenon is not new.

Reading your response, this really resonated with me, "unmotivated self-aware person who realizes they won’t get what they won’t work for and is ok with that”. I want to play the game. I want to enjoy the content zos puts out. But nothing from the new dungeons is motivation enough for me to go try hard sweaty. The only dlc dungeon I have completed more then like 10 times is vWGT, simply because I am a healer main and I wanted SPC. Now all that work has been for not, olo is better in every way to a healer and is way easier to get. The new dlc after, from the ruins of mazzatun on, are just a chore with no reason to run them for me. So when I get them in the random vet daily I try to run every day, I politely ask to go to an easier dungeon and when people say" I queued for this", unless the group looks really good, like highish cp, correct food and mundas for the their build, I just say good luck and leave. I get no enjoyment out of spending an hour carrying a team through those slogging dungeons. And that is fine, I suppose. There is just nothing I value in them.

HansProlo

IMO the newer dlcs are great dungeons but too hard on normal mode. For just one reason: casual play. I like to log into the game, do stuff while waiting in the random dungeon queue for the daily. I want to do that dungeon rather stressles, without bitching or quitting. After all, there is still a vet mode for people who like the challenge. when i see moonhunter keep or cradle of shadows or other ones, i know i will have to invest 5x the time and with a high chance, not ending it. because, in most of those games, teammates are leaving very fast, because, they know the same.... it will be taking too much time, stressful time.

there are so many things to do when you want it harder, but normal mode should not be the usual experience you will have in nCoS Pug.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Nerouyn wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Idk what you’re reading, but I can CLEARLY SEE "vet DLC"

Yet you can't CLEARLY SEE that that's NOT what they said. Even with my having bolded it.

zvavi wrote: »

it is a known fact that pugging vet dlc is a harsh thing

Then they claimed to have said something different.

zvavi wrote: »

@Nerouyn I said "vet dlc is harsh". Not "vet". Most vet in the game is a joke you can run with 4 dd's. The whole post was about vet DLC dungeons.

Those statements are not the same and the first one is unequivocally false.

It might be known to those who frequently run dungeons but you would not expect the same of players jumping into them during a special event - ESO Plus free trial running concurrently with the Morrowind anniversary - during which the game experiences an influx of not regulars.

Again, what the actual hell are you looking at? Because it literally says vet dlc, RIGHT THERE.

Edit: if you can’t see or read what I zoomed in on that says vet dlc- then sorry: there’s no hope for you.

Jhalin

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jhalin good response, thank you. I am of the opinion that people have always been like that though, the way you have described, the phenomenon is not new.

Reading your response, this really resonated with me, "unmotivated self-aware person who realizes they won’t get what they won’t work for and is ok with that”. I want to play the game. I want to enjoy the content zos puts out. But nothing from the new dungeons is motivation enough for me to go try hard sweaty. The only dlc dungeon I have completed more then like 10 times is vWGT, simply because I am a healer main and I wanted SPC. Now all that work has been for not, olo is better in every way to a healer and is way easier to get. The new dlc after, from the ruins of mazzatun on, are just a chore with no reason to run them for me. So when I get them in the random vet daily I try to run every day, I politely ask to go to an easier dungeon and when people say" I queued for this", unless the group looks really good, like highish cp, correct food and mundas for the their build, I just say good luck and leave. I get no enjoyment out of spending an hour carrying a team through those slogging dungeons. And that is fine, I suppose. There is just nothing I value in them.

You’re correct it’s not really new, but (in American culture anyway) the implementation of those kind of practices into public education systems is fairly recent (past 15 years or so)

But back on topic, I’m very ok with people who don’t feel inclined to do the dlc dungeons. Not everyone has the drive to do them the same way not everyone wants to play Dark Souls games. It’s just when people want those rewards and fancy cosmetics and the prestige of completions of hard modes, no-death’s etc etc, and yet rejects the idea of changing their playstyle or practicing more to make those goals more achievable, I start losing sympathy very quickly.

jainiadral

Jhalin wrote: »

Group 2 consists of “I don’t want to keep trying to get better or ask for help or learn mechanics, just give me the gear/skin/motif/achievement” which can be many types of players. It can be PvEers that want Caltrops but refuse to PvP. It can be casual PvEers that demand a solo instance for everything because they don’t want to reach out to gather a group. It can be a PvPer who won’t touch battlegrounds but wants the style pages.

False dichotomy, like these vast oversimplifications always are.

Take the solo instance-- it's being requested because of a dev decision to gate story content behind DLC dungeons that a lot of people can't even complete on normal. If anyone non-solo-oriented had bothered to actually read the thread, they would know this. It has nothing to do with a hand-me-a-trophy mentality whatsoever. In fact, one of the conditions was that said dungeons either didn't reward anything beyond a skill point and standard XP and drops, or nothing at all. Most of the participants involved in said discussion, including yours truly, were fine with no trophies whatsoever. What we were interested in was a) seeing the story and b) being able to finish the quests-- which is apparently a problem for those in the group who PUGged or tried to run with guildies.

Yep, give me a trophy

Frankly, after reading a lot of the recent threads here, I'm even more determined never to group in this game.

zvavi wrote: »

That... Is so true... I had two dd's that left the group when I was tanking because they couldn't do mechanics and blamed everyone else (again, scalecaller peak) they wouldn't even stand inside of the antidote on the antidote boss and kept saying "we know mechanics". Even after the dungeon when I told them again "guys u gotta learn mechanics" they kept saying that they do know them (after I requeued I got them again, this time they died less, maybe the healer managed to heal the mess they made). And a tank that couldnt survive taunting gragoil boss, and raged at the healer for it. If those are "elites", I gotta tell all of you something. Those people are worse than pugs in the aspect that they don't learn. Ever. And they are also the people that create the "toxic elitists" feeling you have

Part of me almost regrets singling this comment out, but it's the easiest-to-find example of unhelpful communication through all the pages here. I picked it because I'm seeing the kind of shut-down language that was addressed so beautifully a few pages back. Like L2P or "git gud" (gah! learn 2 spell, people!), "U gotta learn mechanics" is just as vague and just as nonhelpful.

Did you approach your guildies and explain to them how the problem mechanic worked? Or did you go straight to, "Do you know the mechanics?" Because if you're not, you're not giving them anything to work with and you're giving them the exact kind of communication that triggers toxic behavior patterns.

The guildie reads, "Git gud" enough times and the hackles rise. Anything that feels as useless and condescending makes the hackles go up. Then the guildie gets defensive because they've gotten enough of that garbage in the past. Boom! The front comes up.

"Of course I know the mechanics," the guildie says. "Mind your own business!"

Then the cycle continues. Toxic behavior is reinforced by nonhelpful critique and bad communication.

wolf486

witchdoctor wrote: »

Like they say, times change.

Also like they say, not always for the better

zvavi

for @jainiadral person, i will answer what i thought u meant. YES. I ask them. I asked them through out the dungeon. i even explained. i even stopped tanking in fights to caps lock "ANTIDOTE" because they wouldnt remember it even though i went through mechanics a moment ago.

They were not guildies. I NEVER had any problems with guildies. EVER. you can see all the examples of guildie runs i had in my original, first, post. if the guildies dont know mechanics, they always got encouragement. even in pugs. they always get encouragement from me. i was complaining about people that dont know mechanics, but wouldnt listen. pug is sometimes so much *** to deal with, even when i am the most positive person. and honestly? after the *** i have gone through with those "we know mechanics" two guys, i grabbed guildies and went in there again to cool down from ***. even if they dont know mechanics. ye we died few times, but it was fun.

wait i am confused, where you complaining that i asked if they know mechanics beforehand and didnt explain when they said they did? i mean, do you know how long it takes to type out mechanics? sometimes i go in there to chill. to have fun. if i get people that need help so be it. if they dont i will not use two minutes before every boss to type things. i think it is more toxic, to the impatient person who knows mechanics. i even had people that said that they know mechanics, and then they just died to one shots few times and then after saying "man u dont know mechanics, i will explain" they went "fine". my problem is that they didnt know mechanics. AND THEY KEPT SAYING THEY DID AND THAT THEY DONT NEED EXPLANATIONS.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Jhalin wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Jhalin good response, thank you. I am of the opinion that people have always been like that though, the way you have described, the phenomenon is not new.

Reading your response, this really resonated with me, "unmotivated self-aware person who realizes they won’t get what they won’t work for and is ok with that”. I want to play the game. I want to enjoy the content zos puts out. But nothing from the new dungeons is motivation enough for me to go try hard sweaty. The only dlc dungeon I have completed more then like 10 times is vWGT, simply because I am a healer main and I wanted SPC. Now all that work has been for not, olo is better in every way to a healer and is way easier to get. The new dlc after, from the ruins of mazzatun on, are just a chore with no reason to run them for me. So when I get them in the random vet daily I try to run every day, I politely ask to go to an easier dungeon and when people say" I queued for this", unless the group looks really good, like highish cp, correct food and mundas for the their build, I just say good luck and leave. I get no enjoyment out of spending an hour carrying a team through those slogging dungeons. And that is fine, I suppose. There is just nothing I value in them.

You’re correct it’s not really new, but (in American culture anyway) the implementation of those kind of practices into public education systems is fairly recent (past 15 years or so)

But back on topic, I’m very ok with people who don’t feel inclined to do the dlc dungeons. Not everyone has the drive to do them the same way not everyone wants to play Dark Souls games. It’s just when people want those rewards and fancy cosmetics and the prestige of completions of hard modes, no-death’s etc etc, and yet rejects the idea of changing their playstyle or practicing more to make those goals more achievable, I start losing sympathy very quickly.

I mean, I have been through the American public education system, it really is not like what you are describing, where even losers get rewarded, if anything, winners are over rewarded, a lot of things are wrong with the way education is in the USA but losers getting trophys is not one as far as I can tell. A lot of the older generation loses perspective with age, forget what it was like to be young. Happens to all generations. This video explains what I mean, https://youtu.be/-HFwok9SlQQ


I also tried to play the dark soul games, no idea why people would put themselves through it.

jainiadral

zvavi wrote: »

for previous person, the mess you have made, i will answer what i thought u meant. YES. I ask them. I asked them through out the dungeon. i even explained. i even stopped tanking in fights to caps lock "ANTIDOTE" because they wouldnt remember it even though i went through mechanics a moment ago.

Sorry, the forums locked up on me. Had to reformat.

Fair enough. The one thing I've been observing in this game is that there are a lot of terrible misconceptions about people and what their interests are. Combine that with ZOS' bad content and reward gating all in the interests of supposedly getting people out of their comfort zones, and you get a lot of bad blood between players. Heck, read what everyone says on these forums, and you'll see that the bad blood flows in all directions and stains every last one of us.

It's a problem engineered by ZOS, and lots of other devs of other MMORPGs. The idea that they know what's best for the player and not the players themselves. A page or so back, a poster mentioned gating housing behind DLC dungeons. Sure, there's some crossover with high-end dungeoneers, RPers, casual solo types, and interior decorators. But there's a lot more overlap between certain segments of the player base. Gating a house behind, say, story completion, is a lot more appropriate than sticking it behind content that your average casual can't complete. Gating caltrops, or whatever it is-- haven't leveled a stam toon yet-- behind PvP when PvErs need it is a bad idea. The problem is the dev, not any segment of the player base. But we still attack each other because we're easy targets.

The best bet would be to allow for a lot more freedom for everyone to choose what they enjoy and to have rewards gated appropriately. But that's not going to happen, so you have this titanic player war. It's happened before in other games, and it's happening here. And so long as MMO devs keep making these decisions, it will continue to happen until the MMORPG genre is totally dead.

I keep hoping somewhere in that ever-dying sliver of idealism in my soul that we'll start to see that these wars are stupid. I try to read everything and keep an open mind. As you can see above, I kinda suck

You've just seen my bias in action-- I apologize, BTW. Sorry about that.

zvavi

i also edited my previous comment a bit to give more insight, also my capslocks are never rage, they are always <this is the important part>, maybe i should start bolding out things instead

Nemesis7884

Its really hard to find people to do these dungeons

zvavi

as a person which is in 5 social guilds, i agree. i pug them most of the time. but then again, now i have 5 dd's, few main tanks, few main healers i know i can take there with me. heck, i can take much more guildies if i drag them in to voice. and it ends up being really fun. even if we wipe. a lot. i spent 6 hours in vSCP hardmode first time till we got it. while at some point we started questioning our sanity, it was fun. try getting people to go to those dungeons on voice and try out new things, communicate during them. I am sure that you can find people who care about dungeon progression in your guilds as well

DLC vet dungeons are really fun GROUP content. if your group is negative, it is no fun. if you want to progress in them try asking in zone chat for "guild that has people that wants to progress in vet dlc dungeon achievements". many of them exists. i know i would invite people that send such a message to my guild (well not mine but u know... i am an officer there) right away.

Jhalin

jainiadral wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Group 2 consists of “I don’t want to keep trying to get better or ask for help or learn mechanics, just give me the gear/skin/motif/achievement” which can be many types of players. It can be PvEers that want Caltrops but refuse to PvP. It can be casual PvEers that demand a solo instance for everything because they don’t want to reach out to gather a group. It can be a PvPer who won’t touch battlegrounds but wants the style pages.

False dichotomy, like these vast oversimplifications always are.

Take the solo instance-- it's being requested because of a dev decision to gate story content behind DLC dungeons that a lot of people can't even complete on normal. If anyone non-solo-oriented had bothered to actually read the thread, they would know this. It has nothing to do with a hand-me-a-trophy mentality whatsoever. In fact, one of the conditions was that said dungeons either didn't reward anything beyond a skill point and standard XP and drops, or nothing at all. Most of the participants involved in said discussion, including yours truly, were fine with no trophies whatsoever. What we were interested in was a) seeing the story and b) being able to finish the quests-- which is apparently a problem for those in the group who PUGged or tried to run with guildies.

Yep, give me a trophy

Frankly, after reading a lot of the recent threads here, I'm even more determined never to group in this game.

Again, as mentioned in this thread. A normal DLC dungeon is not something that you “cannot” do. As per the entire basis for this thread, which is incredibly true, it is that so many people would rather neglect improving themselves, would rather avoid people entirely, do not want to find like minded people to run this content with, do not intend to adjust the way they play to achieve the content they want to complete.

If you don’t do any of those things... then why should you be rewarded with anything? When you don’t want to put it even moderate effort to complete just one clear on normal to get the story, then clearly it doesn’t mean that much to you.

Unless you’re missing an arm or are legally blind, what condition is there that physically prohibits you from improving your gear, or you dps rotation, or your situational awareness enough to clear a DLC dungeon on normal with individuals willing to do the same? You don’t need to be in all BiS min-maxing to clear DLC dungeons, most online builds will do, even semi-coherent ones are acceptable for normal. You don’t need perfect group coordination at all times, just enough teamwork to get by. All you have to do is ensure people know the mechanics and practice. That’s really as simple as it gets.

Integral1900

Well here is mine for what it’s worth

Those two phrases are mostly use out of spite or frustration so let’s not pretend otherwise, their main effect is to discourage new players, there are guilds full of players who refuse to do DLC dungeons simply because they’re afraid of the scorn of experienced players, all those two phrases are doing is storing up trouble for the future because sooner or later you’re simply going to run out of players willing to do the content. At which point ZOS may simply choose not to make any more of it

I used to do vet hardmode stuff regularly but I stopped because of all the egos, there is only so long I’m willing to sit around waiting while a bunch of lumps with the emotional development of a three year old bicker over tactics. I do normal stuff now because I can help new players while playing builds I actual enjoy instead of some unbearably tedious cookie cutter meta one. Also ZOS putting the new dungeon skins in vet rather than hard mode should be a wake up call, it means that they see so few players trying to get the skins that they feel the need to make them easier to acquire

I subscribe because I like to give a little back to the game that on the whole I love so much, especially when there is nothing in the crown store I wanna buy. I end up with the DLC dungeon as a side-effect and I deal with them accordingly. I used to do vet dlc all the time, now you could never offer me a bribe big enough to go back. I have a list of flawless runs that may as well not exist for all I care. Now I walk into the dungeon then I talk to the NPC, I take my time to understand the story, except the quest, then leave and run it on a normal pug. After that I never go anywhere near it ever again, there is nothing in there I want and I no longer have the desire nor the need to do the veteran content.

The experience of previous MMO’s tells us that the likelihood is that players like me with increase over time. If you want to keep getting difficult content that challenges your abilities you’re going to have to encourage other players. Using those two phrases will not do this, that is a fact. Some players like yourself may be the exception but the vast majority will take the path of least resistance, this is simply human nature, you cannot force someone to get better, they will just do something else. You must encourage them, be friendly to them, using those two remarks will have exactly the opposite effect to the one you hope

idk

josiahva wrote: »

^^ This is EXACTLY true. It takes effort to learn to survive vet DLC dungeons..

This. And as an MMORPG develops the instanced content tends to go more in the direction of mechanics instead of boring stack and burns like we find in many of the original dungeons.

Zos was kind enough to remember everyone and now has a normal version of every dungeon made. This was not the case before 2 years ago outside of the DLC dungeons. Same with trials.

So in the end, Zos has made the content much more accessible to players across the board while also offering more challenging dungeons on vet/HM for those who are up to working on that challenge.

jainiadral

zvavi wrote: »

for @jainiadral person, i will answer what i thought u meant. YES. I ask them. I asked them through out the dungeon. i even explained. i even stopped tanking in fights to caps lock "ANTIDOTE" because they wouldnt remember it even though i went through mechanics a moment ago.

They were not guildies. I NEVER had any problems with guildies. EVER. you can see all the examples of guildie runs i had in my original, first, post. if the guildies dont know mechanics, they always got encouragement. even in pugs. they always get encouragement from me. i was complaining about people that dont know mechanics, but wouldnt listen. pug is sometimes so much *** to deal with, even when i am the most positive person. and honestly? after the *** i have gone through with those "we know mechanics" two guys, i grabbed guildies and went in there again to cool down from ***. even if they dont know mechanics. ye we died few times, but it was fun.

wait i am confused, where you complaining that i asked if they know mechanics beforehand and didnt explain when they said they did? i mean, do you know how long it takes to type out mechanics? sometimes i go in there to chill. to have fun. if i get people that need help so be it. if they dont i will not use two minutes before every boss to type things. i think it is more toxic, to the impatient person who knows mechanics. i even had people that said that they know mechanics, and then they just died to one shots few times and then after saying "man u dont know mechanics, i will explain" they went "fine". my problem is that they didnt know mechanics. AND THEY KEPT SAYING THEY DID AND THAT THEY DONT NEED EXPLANATIONS.

Whoa, relax It's ok, I believe you. I tend to take what people post on the forums at face value, and I've read several posts here that are pretty much what I-- not knowing the full story-- accused you of.

People do this kind of stuff all the time to others. I've seen all kinds of what should be fun situations falling apart into blame tossing, etc. My favorite was a failed choya pinata event in GW2. Lots of super-competitive people started hurling insults and pointing fingers at each other because the event which happens hourly didn't go according to plan. What started out as an interesting strategy chat and a learning experience turned into something that made me shut off chat for the rest of the day

We all carry a huge amount of baggage going into any encounter. I'm guessing that if ESO isn't a lot of people's first MMORPG, they've got a plethora of bad experiences that they bring here. They get defensive early. It's not fair to the people they're dealing with, but it is understandable. It's part of human nature. It sucks to deal with, but maybe, somehow if we can break old patterns, maybe new and better ones can emerge. Maybe constructive dialog can take the place of this b.s.

zvavi wrote: »

i also edited my previous comment a bit to give more insight, also my capslocks are never rage, they are always <this is the important part>, maybe i should start bolding out things instead

Hee, netiquette is weird, isn't it? Anyway, I'm guessing you ran afoul of these players' bad experiences. It's not your fault. The only way to change the patterns is to tamp down on your own (and I say this to the collective player base-- and myself) defensive tendencies. Then excise l2p and "git gud" from your vocabulary. For my part, I need engage equanimity no matter how much my hackles are up and take a chill pill myself

Jhalin wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Group 2 consists of “I don’t want to keep trying to get better or ask for help or learn mechanics, just give me the gear/skin/motif/achievement” which can be many types of players. It can be PvEers that want Caltrops but refuse to PvP. It can be casual PvEers that demand a solo instance for everything because they don’t want to reach out to gather a group. It can be a PvPer who won’t touch battlegrounds but wants the style pages.

False dichotomy, like these vast oversimplifications always are.

Take the solo instance-- it's being requested because of a dev decision to gate story content behind DLC dungeons that a lot of people can't even complete on normal. If anyone non-solo-oriented had bothered to actually read the thread, they would know this. It has nothing to do with a hand-me-a-trophy mentality whatsoever. In fact, one of the conditions was that said dungeons either didn't reward anything beyond a skill point and standard XP and drops, or nothing at all. Most of the participants involved in said discussion, including yours truly, were fine with no trophies whatsoever. What we were interested in was a) seeing the story and b) being able to finish the quests-- which is apparently a problem for those in the group who PUGged or tried to run with guildies.

Yep, give me a trophy

Frankly, after reading a lot of the recent threads here, I'm even more determined never to group in this game.

Again, as mentioned in this thread. A normal DLC dungeon is not something that you “cannot” do. As per the entire basis for this thread, which is incredibly true, it is that so many people would rather neglect improving themselves, would rather avoid people entirely, do not want to find like minded people to run this content with, do not intend to adjust the way they play to achieve the content they want to complete.

If you don’t do any of those things... then why should you be rewarded with anything? When you don’t want to put it even moderate effort to complete just one clear on normal to get the story, then clearly it doesn’t mean that much to you.

Unless you’re missing an arm or are legally blind, what condition is there that physically prohibits you from improving your gear, or you dps rotation, or your situational awareness enough to clear a DLC dungeon on normal with individuals willing to do the same? You don’t need to be in all BiS min-maxing to clear DLC dungeons, most online builds will do, even semi-coherent ones are acceptable for normal. You don’t need perfect group coordination at all times, just enough teamwork to get by. All you have to do is ensure people know the mechanics and practice. That’s really as simple as it gets.

Several people have commented in the solo dungeon thread that they cannot complete the content. Read the thread without engaging that, "Everybody can do it" mentality and just take in the data without bias. There were several medical conditions, people with geographic issues, internet lag.

Personally, I'm getting older. I'm probably going to need to get bifocals soon. My situational awareness is pretty crappy, honestly. I personally also run into the trap of hyper-analysis. Like, a mechanic makes no sense to me, so as I'm wondering what's up with the logic behind it, it kills me. That's happened to me multiple times Gitting gud isn't happening. If anything, I'm going to be gitting worse.

But above and beyond that, your dichotomy is wrong because it lumps a bunch of disparate types into categories that don't fit. And it implies that people are wrong for having fun with what they enjoy. I don't have fun slinging spells at practice dummies. I'm here only for the story and to enjoy the world. To suggest that I should instead devote endless boring hours getting better at rotations when I'm actually enjoying myself the way I play strikes me as absurd. Especially if I'm trying to experience a 100% otherwise soloable story.

If I have to waste all that time so I can pug some dungeon with annoying mechanics just so I can get the story, I'm going to resent being there. My being there isn't good for either of us.

That's why people complain. That's why people ask for changes. Putting PvE-necessary skills behind PvP cheeses people off. Same with shoving a house that a lot of RP/story folks would want behind a DLC dungeon. Or parts of the main story behind a group dungeon with one-shot mechanics.

If you want an accurate trichotomy (if that's not a word, it is now ), I'd suggest this:

1) People who are uber competitive and want to engage in the content at its most difficult levels.

2) People who like doing more easygoing versions of the content.

3) People who don't want to be there but are stuck because of bad rewards gating.

This applies for all types of content.

Emma_Overload

jainiadral wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

for previous person, the mess you have made, i will answer what i thought u meant. YES. I ask them. I asked them through out the dungeon. i even explained. i even stopped tanking in fights to caps lock "ANTIDOTE" because they wouldnt remember it even though i went through mechanics a moment ago.

Sorry, the forums locked up on me. Had to reformat.

Fair enough. The one thing I've been observing in this game is that there are a lot of terrible misconceptions about people and what their interests are. Combine that with ZOS' bad content and reward gating all in the interests of supposedly getting people out of their comfort zones, and you get a lot of bad blood between players. Heck, read what everyone says on these forums, and you'll see that the bad blood flows in all directions and stains every last one of us.

It's a problem engineered by ZOS, and lots of other devs of other MMORPGs. The idea that they know what's best for the player and not the players themselves. A page or so back, a poster mentioned gating housing behind DLC dungeons. Sure, there's some crossover with high-end dungeoneers, RPers, casual solo types, and interior decorators. But there's a lot more overlap between certain segments of the player base. Gating a house behind, say, story completion, is a lot more appropriate than sticking it behind content that your average casual can't complete. Gating caltrops, or whatever it is-- haven't leveled a stam toon yet-- behind PvP when PvErs need it is a bad idea. The problem is the dev, not any segment of the player base. But we still attack each other because we're easy targets.

The best bet would be to allow for a lot more freedom for everyone to choose what they enjoy and to have rewards gated appropriately. But that's not going to happen, so you have this titanic player war. It's happened before in other games, and it's happening here. And so long as MMO devs keep making these decisions, it will continue to happen until the MMORPG genre is totally dead.

I keep hoping somewhere in that ever-dying sliver of idealism in my soul that we'll start to see that these wars are stupid. I try to read everything and keep an open mind. As you can see above, I kinda suck

You've just seen my bias in action-- I apologize, BTW. Sorry about that.

This is a great, insightful post and touches on many of the problems at the root of the strife you see in this thread. I hope everyone reads it!

Arunei

BuddyAces wrote: »

Going to go out on a limb here and say that watching a video is way better than having someone type out the strats in party chat to something like vMHK HM.

Watching videos and reading guides might help, but only to a certain extent. Especially for these newer DLC dungeons that have all these different mechanics to keep track of, so people who aren't used to them are forgetting them throughout the battle anyways. Look at Morihaus in FH, he has different phases, he summons adds all the time, you have to keep track of where his health is for when he does his insta-kill Grovel, you have to be mindful of how you move when he pulls you in and sends the stones out...people doing FH for the first time, even WITH a guide, are still going to be lost on certain things until they get the hang of the mechanics. Is it really so hard to take a few minutes to give a condensed version of mechanics as you come to them? Especially since a person can look at their chat box easier to see a mechanic they might be brain-farting on than they can alt-tabbing out to another window to try and look something up.

I've been in numerous DLC dungeons where people didn't know mechanics and I've had to explain them. It isn't THAT hard to do and it doesn't make the run THAT much longer. Yes, there are plenty of people who are also more than willing to help newer or less-skilled players get through whatever dungeon the group gets tossed into, but no one can deny that a lot of people are also unfairly getting kicked for ridiculous reasons (the most common being low CP, even tho CP is no indication of skill).

Also I just want to say I'm not trying to defend people who are legit lazy and DO want carries through content. I've had people like that and I will admit I've kicked them, though it's only happened twice in the 5 years I've been playing this game (that I can remember at least, it might be a few more, my memory is crappy). I will wholeheartedly support helping people who honestly WANT to complete content and become better players, or who just have a hard time of things and need some help. I WON'T support or enable people to get into a group, then constantly hide in corners during boss battles, ignoring chat when having mechanics explained (and usually just ignoring chat in general and saying nothing in the slightest), and so on. My point here is that while those people do exist, a lot of honest players are lumped with those sorts just because they might not be so great at the game.

So instead of using terms like 'git gud' and not even giving people the time of day just because they didn't look over or watch a guide that may very well confuse them more than it helps, and instead of knee-jerk treating every low-CP and/or less-experienced players like they're leeches who are only trying to get free passes, just take a few minutes to at least try to (politely and constructively) help the person. If they get unreasonably angry or offended, if they repeatedly don't listen and make no effort to communicate, if they always go hide during combat instead of actually helping clear the dungeon, THEN you make your assumptions and react accordingly.

Agenericname

Jhalin wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Group 2 consists of “I don’t want to keep trying to get better or ask for help or learn mechanics, just give me the gear/skin/motif/achievement” which can be many types of players. It can be PvEers that want Caltrops but refuse to PvP. It can be casual PvEers that demand a solo instance for everything because they don’t want to reach out to gather a group. It can be a PvPer who won’t touch battlegrounds but wants the style pages.

False dichotomy, like these vast oversimplifications always are.

Take the solo instance-- it's being requested because of a dev decision to gate story content behind DLC dungeons that a lot of people can't even complete on normal. If anyone non-solo-oriented had bothered to actually read the thread, they would know this. It has nothing to do with a hand-me-a-trophy mentality whatsoever. In fact, one of the conditions was that said dungeons either didn't reward anything beyond a skill point and standard XP and drops, or nothing at all. Most of the participants involved in said discussion, including yours truly, were fine with no trophies whatsoever. What we were interested in was a) seeing the story and b) being able to finish the quests-- which is apparently a problem for those in the group who PUGged or tried to run with guildies.

Yep, give me a trophy

Frankly, after reading a lot of the recent threads here, I'm even more determined never to group in this game.

Again, as mentioned in this thread. A normal DLC dungeon is not something that you “cannot” do. As per the entire basis for this thread, which is incredibly true, it is that so many people would rather neglect improving themselves, would rather avoid people entirely, do not want to find like minded people to run this content with, do not intend to adjust the way they play to achieve the content they want to complete.

If you don’t do any of those things... then why should you be rewarded with anything? When you don’t want to put it even moderate effort to complete just one clear on normal to get the story, then clearly it doesn’t mean that much to you.

Unless you’re missing an arm or are legally blind, what condition is there that physically prohibits you from improving your gear, or you dps rotation, or your situational awareness enough to clear a DLC dungeon on normal with individuals willing to do the same? You don’t need to be in all BiS min-maxing to clear DLC dungeons, most online builds will do, even semi-coherent ones are acceptable for normal. You don’t need perfect group coordination at all times, just enough teamwork to get by. All you have to do is ensure people know the mechanics and practice. That’s really as simple as it gets.

I agree that many could accomplish normal dungeons without much of a hindrance. Not all, but most could. Personally I think they're in a good spot, but that isn't why the request for story mode was made.

The OP, if the thread that @jainiadral is referring to is the same one I'm thinking of, specifically stated "no rewards" as a condition. It was specifically for the story. The thread later become littered with reason why the rewards should be available, but it wasn't a condition originally.

It's also not an issue of stagnating, not improving, or avoiding people. Well, maybe avoiding people sometimes. Vet DLCs are my favorite part of the game. I have however missed many of the quests stories, I enjoy those as well. Once you have done them, it's over on that character. Finding a like-minded group isn't a bad option, but absolutely doesn't garauntee success and you have a single chance per character. Success in this case meaning spending the time in the dungeon how you would prefer, not an actual clear. The issue surfaced again when the story become part of the DLC dungeon.

Mostly it's irrelevant to this topic, but not an unreasonable request.

I also disagree about the abilities being gated behind PvP being engineered by ZoS. Caltrops isn't needed for any requirement set by ZoS in PvE. That's a player-made requirement, same with Warhorn.

mairwen85

Shardaxx wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

So someone tell me how people are supposed to grow and get better as players like they keep getting told to do, if no one actually takes the time to explain things to them or give them the chance to GET the experience everyone keeps telling them they need to get?

The elitists don't care. They will run these dungeons as soon as they come out, learn the mechanics, finish it on vet, and then belittle anyone who isn't as dedicated as them. That's why they do what they do - to feel superior.

Or they create guides, videos, walk through and other materials.

dovakiin5574

Well newer players are just that. Newer players. Once you've been playing a year or two then you'll have gotten good. Don't sweat if you can't do dlc content yet. Just learn and practice, skill comes with time.

Mr_Walker

mairwen85 wrote: »

Shardaxx wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

So someone tell me how people are supposed to grow and get better as players like they keep getting told to do, if no one actually takes the time to explain things to them or give them the chance to GET the experience everyone keeps telling them they need to get?

The elitists don't care. They will run these dungeons as soon as they come out, learn the mechanics, finish it on vet, and then belittle anyone who isn't as dedicated as them. That's why they do what they do - to feel superior.

Or they create guides, videos, walk through and other materials.

For every one of those, there's a hundred on the forums who think "git gud" is an appropriate response to "I'd just like to experience the story". It's immature and offensive, and should be rewarded with a weeks ban.

Girl_Number8

D0PAMINE wrote: »

As it stands now, telling someone L2P or git gud is basically calling them a clown.

Most of them are full of it, lol. When you complete the content like a lot of us have done, we make sure to help and teach fellow guildies new to the game or wanting to get into the harder content. So it is more fun for everybody by helping keep players staying and interested in eso. You can get the achievements pretty easy when working together but if you're not having fun then it would be a miserable experience. Look to join a friendly trials guild and one that enjoys all the new content and dlc dungeons. If someone is toxic they are just compensating for other issues that have nothing to do with the game.

malicia

We did the two new ones on vet last night. I loved the new mechanics - especially DoM. FV’s last boss was also good fun. We tried DoM on HM twice, but as we only had 3 hours to do both in we reverted to non-HM.

I haven’t done them on normal yet, but on vet they certainly felt much easier than MHK and MoS.

FierceSam

D

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Zathras wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult.

Thing is, it is almost always meant as a dismissive insult.

I read your entire post, and I agree (mostly) with what you are saying, aside from the above.

See, there are more constructive ways to convey to someone that they should improve. The best way is to show them, to take the time and do some mentoring. While that is more applicable for guilds, it does rarely happen in pugs by the more patient and extraordinary players. The next best way is to tell them, in voice chat or text, a way they can make the encounter better, or improve themselves in some way.

Do you know what "Git gud" and "L2P" do to someone who is new, or learning, or wanting to improve? It shuts them down. It is a deterrent, and they become less inclined to do that content again, let alone putting themselves out there to be social. Check out the ESO Reddit, and you'll come across multitudes of stories of people who were genuinely emotionally affected by this happening to them.

Yes, work towards your goals. Yes, accept that you will be defeated. But, making a lengthy post that buffers the message that "Git Gud" and "L2P" aren't negative messages? That they are positive, and incentives to improve yourself? Sorry man. I honestly do hear what you are saying, that you feel you are communicating helpful information, but you aren't.

Being on the receiving end of one of those comments isn't enlightening. It doesn't spur on a drive towards greatness. It makes you want to log out of the game and take a break.

This 100% ^^^

This 1,000,000%

tl:dr try being constructive rather than patronising

RodneyRegis

All very well said. I'd like to add, if you wipe on the first effort at hard mode on a pledge, please don't just quit - at least wait around to give it a go on standard mode. Especially if you are a tank!

You can't expect to pug and get through without a single wipe in vet dlc.

Commancho

I have already canceled my subscription and I have been subscriber for 1,5 year.
I don't have a time for super long random veteran dungeons while I want transmutation crystals.

Hand_Bacon

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

participation trophies are to blame it taught a whole genration it does not matter if you win or lose just show up and stand there and you will be rewarded

As a coach for many years and at different levels of competition I have to comment. I've never been for simple "participation trophies", but I feel they've been used as a band aid for people's shortcomings in general. Having the courage to show up and compete, especially for the first time, is no small feat. Unfortunately, instead of encouragement, first timers are usually met with disdain and disparaging comments. This is more on the insecurity of those showing disdain than the newcomers' lack of skill. A champion, a difference maker, a leader, makes those around him better. They do this not only by their skill, but how they treat teammates.

The test of skill is not in how well you do, but how well you can teach it. The test of character is in how you treat others. Hubris has never served anyone well while humility is contagious.