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How to protect guild against robbery? (ZOS wont help)
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zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭One person by himself/herself cannot take an item from you, you have to make a decision as well. Stop implying scamming means to take with force. Scams occur if one party is negligent and the other really doesn’t care. Aka civil dispute within a a game. If you get scammed once, now you know to watch your trades and guild banks the next time.1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »zParallaxz wrote: »
What's even more funny, players also blame players. To the point that literal self-proclaimed scammers come and have audacity to lecture everyone on good conduct.xb1LL_mr_sir_LL wrote: »Zos policy always blame the player. Even though they added abusable mechanics to the game and refuse to remove them.
i could scam 100 people today and not worry about what zos will do one bit. I know at most I'll get a 3 day ban.
I've never understood why zos protects scammers/bots even though logically it seems super counter productive to the player population.
Only ZOS is completely innocent and blameless.
Your missing the point, you guys are already labeling me a scammer when in reality all I did was cod someone a willpower sword with a bad trait on ACCIDENT, I didn’t realize until the next day. He dm me on Xbox but I didn’t feel like giving the money back.
Did you send what was advertised?
If not, bait and switch is a scam.
You realize he could check the cod mail to ensure the trait was correct before accepting it right?
Absolutely.
Since your anonymous to that person, why not stiff them. See what you can get away with. Right?
I’d personally take the high road and provide what was advertised.2 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Something doesn’t seem right here. I disputed a dues deposit with a Guild Master. They said they didn’t see it.
I opened a ticket and within a day they saw my transaction deposit.
If one person withdrew everything, I’m positive they can find it.
Of course ZOS can find it. It's the players that can't properly see the transaction. If ZOS won't tell the GM who did it and the GM doesn't know due to the name change, then it's impossible to know.
But as a GM you can see the entire withdrawal history.
Are you saying the name change just deleted those records?
Yes, that's the situation here.
Officer X changed his name to xXxButtweazel2000xXx
xXxButtweazel2000xXx withdraws hundreds of items from the guild bank
xXxButtweazel2000xXx then changes his name back to Officer X
The records show a few hundred withdrawals made by xXxButtweazel2000xXx but that player no longer exists
All the "crime" with none of the evidence.4 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Something doesn’t seem right here. I disputed a dues deposit with a Guild Master. They said they didn’t see it.
I opened a ticket and within a day they saw my transaction deposit.
If one person withdrew everything, I’m positive they can find it.
Of course ZOS can find it. It's the players that can't properly see the transaction. If ZOS won't tell the GM who did it and the GM doesn't know due to the name change, then it's impossible to know.
But as a GM you can see the entire withdrawal history.
Are you saying the name change just deleted those records?
Yes, that's the situation here.
Officer X changed his name to xXxButtweazel2000xXx
xXxButtweazel2000xXx withdraws hundreds of items from the guild bank
xXxButtweazel2000xXx then changes his name back to Officer X
The records show a few hundred withdrawals made by xXxButtweazel2000xXx but that player no longer exists
All the "crime" with none of the evidence.
Thats pathetic. I feel bad for the GM.
I’d ask that officer to come forward privately, or all of them will be demoted or purged entirely.1 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Something doesn’t seem right here. I disputed a dues deposit with a Guild Master. They said they didn’t see it.
I opened a ticket and within a day they saw my transaction deposit.
If one person withdrew everything, I’m positive they can find it.
Of course ZOS can find it. It's the players that can't properly see the transaction. If ZOS won't tell the GM who did it and the GM doesn't know due to the name change, then it's impossible to know.
But as a GM you can see the entire withdrawal history.
Are you saying the name change just deleted those records?
Yes, that's the situation here.
Officer X changed his name to xXxButtweazel2000xXx
xXxButtweazel2000xXx withdraws hundreds of items from the guild bank
xXxButtweazel2000xXx then changes his name back to Officer X
The records show a few hundred withdrawals made by xXxButtweazel2000xXx but that player no longer exists
All the "crime" with none of the evidence.
Thats pathetic. I feel bad for the GM.
I’d ask that officer to come forward privately, or all of them will be demoted or purged entirely.
That's why OP asked ZoS for help, got nowhere for reasons stated earlier, and started this thread.
0 -
joseayalac✭✭✭✭✭
✭Probably it's all your fault for giving that person access to the guild stuff.
Also ZOS shouldn't help you because it could be you planning this situation to double your goods. And because it is your fault for giving this person access to the stuff.
If you let people rob you, they WILL rob you. A hard lesson I learned after my laptop, desktop and magic the gathering decks where stolen.
EDIT: of course this doesn't mean that ZOS shouldn't implement stuff to prevent this kind of stuff from happening. Like making it necessary for Guild Masters to approve you after you change names, for example.Edited by joseayalac on February 22, 2019 10:18PM2 -
joseayalac✭✭✭✭✭
✭It could have been someone really into roleplaying a Thieves Guild associate. xD2 -
green_villain✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Something doesn’t seem right here. I disputed a dues deposit with a Guild Master. They said they didn’t see it.
I opened a ticket and within a day they saw my transaction deposit.
If one person withdrew everything, I’m positive they can find it.
Of course ZOS can find it. It's the players that can't properly see the transaction. If ZOS won't tell the GM who did it and the GM doesn't know due to the name change, then it's impossible to know.
But as a GM you can see the entire withdrawal history.
Are you saying the name change just deleted those records?
Yes, that's the situation here.
Officer X changed his name to xXxButtweazel2000xXx
xXxButtweazel2000xXx withdraws hundreds of items from the guild bank
xXxButtweazel2000xXx then changes his name back to Officer X
The records show a few hundred withdrawals made by xXxButtweazel2000xXx but that player no longer exists
All the "crime" with none of the evidence.
Thats pathetic. I feel bad for the GM.
I’d ask that officer to come forward privately, or all of them will be demoted or purged entirely.
That's why OP asked ZoS for help, got nowhere for reasons stated earlier, and started this thread.
yeah no luck so far0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It doesnt matter what the situation is.
ZOS is going to put the privacy of the player first and foremost.
Yeah, that's over and above the security of your guild bank. Which I'm sure that sucks for you, since it means you can't take any reasonable security measures to prevent it happening again.
But realistically? Someone's privacy, even if they did a scumbag thing, is a lot more important. ZOS isnt going to give you information that can be used to scapegoat and blacklist a player. Its one thing if you figured it out on your own, but ZOS isn't going to be liable for telling you.
Which, if we take a step back from this situation and think about it in general, ZOS being too protective of our privacy is better than the alternative. We should not be so eager to strip away the protections that we ourselves benefit from in order to punish wrongdoers.5 -
ATomiX96✭✭✭✭✭
✭How to protect your guild bank from getting robbed:- Don't give anyone other than yourself permission to withdraw from the guild bank.
- If others have permission to withdraw, don't put valueable stuff in the guild bank...
It's a pretty simple concept, isn't it?Edited by ATomiX96 on February 22, 2019 11:49PM2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Happened exactly same in one of my guilds. Half the posts in this thread dont even understand the issue.
The issue is not theft, the issue is the long abused easy account name change with no traceable record. This goes beyond guild bank stealing. People in this game are allowed to change their userID on whim, commit any acts they choose to and change it back with zero traceable record.Edited by SodanTok on February 23, 2019 12:04AM6 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »It doesnt matter what the situation is.
ZOS is going to put the privacy of the player first and foremost.
Yeah, that's over and above the security of your guild bank. Which I'm sure that sucks for you, since it means you can't take any reasonable security measures to prevent it happening again.
But realistically? Someone's privacy, even if they did a scumbag thing, is a lot more important. ZOS isnt going to give you information that can be used to scapegoat and blacklist a player. Its one thing if you figured it out on your own, but ZOS isn't going to be liable for telling you.
Which, if we take a step back from this situation and think about it in general, ZOS being too protective of our privacy is better than the alternative. We should not be so eager to strip away the protections that we ourselves benefit from in order to punish wrongdoers.
The unfortunate alternative here is that while the privacy of one person is protected, the good name of all the officers in that guild got dragged through the mud. If someone is willing to do a name change for legit privacy reasons, then they may want to consider leaving all their guilds first and cutting all ties and getting rid of any potential trail back to their original name. If you choose to stay in your current guilds and maintain your current rank, I'd say you forfeit your argument for privacy security. Your guildmates deserve to know if you change your name. If you don't want your guildmates to know, leave the guild first. If someone were online at the time of the withdrawals and took notice, it would have negated all the privacy in this situation anyway. It's just that nobody was looking when it took place.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Something doesn’t seem right here. I disputed a dues deposit with a Guild Master. They said they didn’t see it.
I opened a ticket and within a day they saw my transaction deposit.
If one person withdrew everything, I’m positive they can find it.
Of course ZOS can find it. It's the players that can't properly see the transaction. If ZOS won't tell the GM who did it and the GM doesn't know due to the name change, then it's impossible to know.
But as a GM you can see the entire withdrawal history.
Are you saying the name change just deleted those records?
Yes, that's the situation here.
Officer X changed his name to xXxButtweazel2000xXx
xXxButtweazel2000xXx withdraws hundreds of items from the guild bank
xXxButtweazel2000xXx then changes his name back to Officer X
The records show a few hundred withdrawals made by xXxButtweazel2000xXx but that player no longer exists
All the "crime" with none of the evidence.
Thats pathetic. I feel bad for the GM.
I’d ask that officer to come forward privately, or all of them will be demoted or purged entirely.
The person who does this sort of thing isn't the kind of person who will care if others are hurt by it.3 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »It doesnt matter what the situation is.
ZOS is going to put the privacy of the player first and foremost.
Yeah, that's over and above the security of your guild bank. Which I'm sure that sucks for you, since it means you can't take any reasonable security measures to prevent it happening again.
But realistically? Someone's privacy, even if they did a scumbag thing, is a lot more important. ZOS isnt going to give you information that can be used to scapegoat and blacklist a player. Its one thing if you figured it out on your own, but ZOS isn't going to be liable for telling you.
Which, if we take a step back from this situation and think about it in general, ZOS being too protective of our privacy is better than the alternative. We should not be so eager to strip away the protections that we ourselves benefit from in order to punish wrongdoers.
Not sure I see the privacy argument here.Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.
ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.
Also other games don't allow you to simply change your account name so easily as well and some won't even let you change it at all, they just give scammers another way to be a rat
Agreed, but then the account name should never be visible to other players in the first place, it's a massive security risk.
There needs to be a visible account name, even if it isn't what you use in your credentials. And that visible name and any alternate names used in the pass should all link to the same account record.
I get why they might want to let people disappear like this. It is a way to solve harassment issues. You can't be harassed if you can no longer be found. But they need account name changing to invalidate guild rank if logs are going to just show a static name from the time the action was taken. The one problem with this solution though is that a guild could end up with no officers if the leader changes their account name. There are multiple ways that can be managed.Edited by DaveMoeDee on February 23, 2019 5:48AM2 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »Not sure I see the privacy argument here.
For starters, we have one person's story, and some partial screenies.
What we may not have: the screenie of the OP telling the guy, 'take it, I don't care.'
ZOS isn't a court, and neither are the forums. ZOS is going to operate under a privacy policy that favours 1) the person behind the user ID, and 2) not getting involved in guild drama.
I think VaranisArano is correct.2 -
green_villain✭✭✭Happened exactly same in one of my guilds. Half the posts in this thread dont even understand the issue.
The issue is not theft, the issue is the long abused easy account name change with no traceable record. This goes beyond guild bank stealing. People in this game are allowed to change their userID on whim, commit any acts they choose to and change it back with zero traceable record.
yes and this need to be adressed1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Happened exactly same in one of my guilds. Half the posts in this thread dont even understand the issue.
The issue is not theft, the issue is the long abused easy account name change with no traceable record. This goes beyond guild bank stealing. People in this game are allowed to change their userID on whim, commit any acts they choose to and change it back with zero traceable record.
People understand the issues ok. There are two, one relates to guild permissions and the other to name changing. If you manage the former then the latter doesn't arise.
ZOS should in my view only permit name changes through Customer Support and with a clear restriction - say only one change in the lifetime of an account.
However, like most problems that require, but probably won't get, a permanent fix there is a simple workaround players can adopt - and that is to manage guild permissions in full knowledge that anyone who you permit to access your guild bank is given authority to strip it. It may not be what you intend, but it is the reality of the situation and needs to be in the forefront of your thinking when appointing Officers and granting permissions.0 -
supaskrub✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.
ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.
But the tools are not sufficient in this case. A player was able to bypass the in game records by changing their name. The GM has no access to the changed name. I'd say that is the definition of insufficient tools. Now if the records kept track of the name dynamically or if there were a record of the name change, the guild could take actions against the player. This isn't just about someone taking things from the guild bank. It's about not knowing who did it. The tools are in place to know, but the ability to change your @ name back and forth bypasses that knowledge. I'd say that's a glaring oversight, especially if ZOS can't assist on their end and let the GM know the name of the player that accessed the bank (which should be tracked in the logs normally).
Sorry but the tools are, an untrustworthy player was made an officer and it appears from the OP post several officers could be the culprit. This speaks to poor control of who has access to the guild bank. That is not a ZOS issue, that is a personal issue.
Any tool that does not record bank or any other trust actions by player_id (which is absolute) rather than just username is not fit for purpose.
It’s a no brainer to use player id to record transactions and render the current username to screen via that so if the username is changed a bazillion times the cold hard facts are player id will always reveal the username in use at the present time.
Edited by supaskrub on February 23, 2019 1:34PM0