ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

Anyron wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

No, that was not their intended goal. They wanted to open up diversity and give more racial options for the different roles. In that regard they actually succeeded, each Stamina and Magicka have a new race added (Dunmer and Khajiit) and I think even the tank role got more options now.

Their goal was not to make every race equally strong in every role.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

No, that was not their intended goal. They wanted to open up diversity and give more racial options for the different roles. In that regard they actually succeeded, each Stamina and Magicka have a new race added (Dunmer and Khajiit) and I think even the tank role got more options now.

Their goal was not to make every race equally strong in every role.

@Seraphayel They still haven't really succeeded, have they? Argonians are still pidgeonholed into being a tank or a healer, and even then, as many have said, they aren't even that good at it anymore.

I can't see anyone saying Argonians are going to be in a good place now as anything more than just salty that they had a viable place for a time.

miteba wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

I dont agree...i think people sometimes mix racial rebalance with "all roles to any race".
Its logical that each race will be predominant to some roles (DD, tank, healer) and affinity (magical, physical and both)...because of their racial/physical attributes and lore wise.
And it is obvious that some races will fit better in PVE and others on PVP.

If it were to be a perfect balance, in "all roles for any race" perspective, then we should have all racials equal with only the skin difference and lore tweaks without combat, sustain and resistance attributes.
-} Lore tweaks like the argonian swim speed for instance.
-} Without resistance attributes because if not all people would choose dunmer or argonian since fire and poison resistances are the most common

Well that's the problem, they built Argonians around lore that was really never in the game till Skyrim when racial identity started getting messed up. They were never healers or tanks back when I started playing the TES series. They had an affinity for Mysticism and Illusion not Restoration. Also we were 100% immune to poisons and 75% resistant to disease. Our stats were +int,+agi,+spd and -End so where this magic tanking power comes from I don't know. The intelligence helped with Alchemy, Illusion,and Mysticism, as well as the physical aspect of the Argonians. We have the Shadowscales, Born under the sign of Shadow they are sent to the Dark Brotherhood to train their whole life to be assassins. So why aren't we a dps race if lore is factored in here?

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nothing really opened and doors that were once opened for some races, such as Altmer Healers, have been closed. Sounds like the exact opposite of their intended purpose, regardless of what it was.

New competitive Stamina race: Dunmer
New competitive Magicka race: Khajiit
New competitive healer race: Breton (Altmer make excellent healers after the update as their new Spell Damage applies to heals whereas their former additional elemental damage didn't)

I think they opened a lot of doors whilst they only closed one: Stealth Bosmer. This is the only real mistake ZOS makes with the update.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nothing really opened and doors that were once opened for some races, such as Altmer Healers, have been closed. Sounds like the exact opposite of their intended purpose, regardless of what it was.

New competitive Stamina race: Dunmer
New competitive Magicka race: Khajiit
New competitive healer race: Breton (Altmer make excellent healers after the update as their new Spell Damage applies to heals whereas their former additional elemental damage didn't)

I think they opened a lot of doors whilst they only closed one: Stealth Bosmer. This is the only real mistake ZOS makes with the update.

I can agree with you regarding Dunmer and Khajiit, but don't know where you're coming from by listing Breton. They already had passives to support a healing role. That door was already open, they've simply gone from "decent" to "superior".

Plus, I would rephrase the way you've presented this. I don't think "competitive" was a necessary part of the goal. To me it's just a question of whether the role is supported in some way.

For example, my main is an Altmer Dragonknight. I actually created him to be a tank, not DPS. Didn't really care about the meta, I just really liked the "high elf in shiny plate armor" thing and wanted to do that. And now, he'll be better at it. With higher max stamina for tanking, Spell Recharge will return magicka. So when I hit Igneous Shield, he'll get 990 stamina, 645 magicka, and 3 ultimate, plus the shield. And when I need to heavy attack, he'll get 5% damage mitigation.

Not too shabby, right? I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "competitive" but it does serve to support the role. It's still a screwball passive, but at least I can do something with it.

And there's what makes me sad about Argonian changes. The support from their passives for some roles diminished, but nothing new was opened up. Everyone else got a "reworking your race to make it more compelling" patch. All Argonians got were nerfs. You could argue that the reworks missed the mark for some races, but for Argonians...no shot was even taken.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

No, that was not their intended goal. They wanted to open up diversity and give more racial options for the different roles. In that regard they actually succeeded, each Stamina and Magicka have a new race added (Dunmer and Khajiit) and I think even the tank role got more options now.

Their goal was not to make every race equally strong in every role.

@Seraphayel They still haven't really succeeded, have they? Argonians are still pidgeonholed into being a tank or a healer, and even then, as many have said, they aren't even that good at it anymore.

I can't see anyone saying Argonians are going to be in a good place now as anything more than just salty that they had a viable place for a time.

There are some outliers when it comes to races, that's true. Argonian, Nord and maybe Imperial when it comes to DPS potential. But those races are special in the regard that they have stronger survivability/defense or other racials that make up for it. Besides those three races all Magicka and Stamina races are very balanced. Look at the parses, ZOS did a very good job on that part.

It's impossible to bring Argonian, Nord and Imperial in line with them because in exchange they must remove some of their utility or defensive racials. And I am not sure if the people playing those races want that. You cannot have the same DPS potential and then some very strong racials like the Resourceful (Argonian) or the Ulti gen (Nord). Something must be traded in.

My main is an Argonian stam sorc. I can tell you right now: that potion passive isn't THAT good. It's helpful as a byproduct of the fact that it exists, but it's a gimmick.

@Seraphayel Argonian has nothing to help it to fill a dps role. As far as I'm concerned, ZOS have failed in their vision to give all races something to bring to the table for every role, and are effectively hyporcrites for allowing the current changes to go forward.

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Disagree. There was not much lore on Argonians to begin with. Stats like Mysticism and Illusion and even Resotration were not racial traits they were just starting stats that eventually did not matter since all races could build towards them. These stats are not even in ESO. So new gameplay elements for races had to happen. Now the only racial traits Argonians had was they breathe underwater and diease and posions resistances. That is it. This is pre Skyrim. Now if we count Skyrim, Argonians got Histskin. The only thing that make Argonians different from other races breathing underwater. All Zos did was made a race that survives in a swamp that lives and breathes by consuming sap from a sentient tree.

So I guess High Elves starting off with higher magickal expertise also doesn't matter either since any race could build towards them, right?
Saying that starting skill bonuses don't matter is probably one of the dumbest thing I ever heard, they are straight up how the games represent the strong points of each race. The only acceptable reason for dissing the skills would be the inconsistency between games, but that's because the skill system got reworked every game, none of the races have 100% consistent skill bonuses.

But what argonians do have is incredibly consistant attribute modifiers: +10 agility, +10 speed, -10 endurance, this holds true for all four main game before Skyrim.
The in-game flavour text repeatedly described them as "highly-evolved race of reptiles, known for their intelligence, agility, and speed"
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison" "They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand"
Lorewise argonians have deep connections with the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves guild and are widely known as the "foremost experts of guerilla warfare"

There was enough lore to establish a consistent image and that image isn't a bulky healing mage. It's 'agile gankblade with slight affinity for magic'.

While attributes and stats aren't in ESO they are still represented with the holy trinity of hp/stam/mag.
Agility, Speed, Strength-> stamina
Endurance -> hp
Intelligence, Willpower -> magicka
Personality, Luck -> nada

Giving argonians +1000 HP instead of +1000 stamina directly contradicts the lore the first 4 game was building up.
The +6% healing done is an overrepresentation of their affinity for support type magic.

Koronach wrote: »

miteba wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

I dont agree...i think people sometimes mix racial rebalance with "all roles to any race".
Its logical that each race will be predominant to some roles (DD, tank, healer) and affinity (magical, physical and both)...because of their racial/physical attributes and lore wise.
And it is obvious that some races will fit better in PVE and others on PVP.

If it were to be a perfect balance, in "all roles for any race" perspective, then we should have all racials equal with only the skin difference and lore tweaks without combat, sustain and resistance attributes.
-} Lore tweaks like the argonian swim speed for instance.
-} Without resistance attributes because if not all people would choose dunmer or argonian since fire and poison resistances are the most common

Well that's the problem, they built Argonians around lore that was really never in the game till Skyrim when racial identity started getting messed up. They were never healers or tanks back when I started playing the TES series. They had an affinity for Mysticism and Illusion not Restoration. Also we were 100% immune to poisons and 75% resistant to disease. Our stats were +int,+agi,+spd and -End so where this magic tanking power comes from I don't know. The intelligence helped with Alchemy, Illusion,and Mysticism, as well as the physical aspect of the Argonians. We have the Shadowscales, Born under the sign of Shadow they are sent to the Dark Brotherhood to train their whole life to be assassins. So why aren't we a dps race if lore is factored in here?

Yeah, this has baffled me since the very beginning. Argonians are suppoed to be agile skirmishers who make intelligent use of non-aggressive forms of magic. Healing is in their toolkit, but it isn't their primary focus, and their terrible endurance makes them bad tanks.

The most sensible thing, in my opinion, would be for Argonians to have a Magicka and Stamina bonus like Dunmer, and instead of Weapon/Spell Power they keep their potion passive, which effectively would make them the sustain hybrid counterpart to the Dark Elves. Currently we lack that "archetype", and it would fit perfectly for Argonians.

Xsorus wrote: »

Disease Resistance is super good in pvp

Explain this to me because I have yet to see any Disease Damage enchantment procs in forever. I see Absorb Stamina procs more often than Disease Damage procs.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

miteba wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

I dont agree...i think people sometimes mix racial rebalance with "all roles to any race".
Its logical that each race will be predominant to some roles (DD, tank, healer) and affinity (magical, physical and both)...because of their racial/physical attributes and lore wise.
And it is obvious that some races will fit better in PVE and others on PVP.

If it were to be a perfect balance, in "all roles for any race" perspective, then we should have all racials equal with only the skin difference and lore tweaks without combat, sustain and resistance attributes.
-} Lore tweaks like the argonian swim speed for instance.
-} Without resistance attributes because if not all people would choose dunmer or argonian since fire and poison resistances are the most common

Well that's the problem, they built Argonians around lore that was really never in the game till Skyrim when racial identity started getting messed up. They were never healers or tanks back when I started playing the TES series. They had an affinity for Mysticism and Illusion not Restoration. Also we were 100% immune to poisons and 75% resistant to disease. Our stats were +int,+agi,+spd and -End so where this magic tanking power comes from I don't know. The intelligence helped with Alchemy, Illusion,and Mysticism, as well as the physical aspect of the Argonians. We have the Shadowscales, Born under the sign of Shadow they are sent to the Dark Brotherhood to train their whole life to be assassins. So why aren't we a dps race if lore is factored in here?

The most sensible thing, in my opinion, would be for Argonians to have a Magicka and Stamina bonus like Dunmer, and instead of Weapon/Spell Power they keep their potion passive, which effectively would make them the sustain hybrid counterpart to the Dark Elves. Currently we lack that "archetype", and it would fit perfectly for Argonians.

Races got rebalanced in large part because of how unbalanced Argonian has been for over a year in PvP. That is why they got nerfed now instead of buffed like other Races. Suggesting they turn around and give them a large max Stam and Magicka buff and keep the Potion passive, the main thing making them overperform, is just silly.

Dark Elf has no recovery. If you want Argonian to get similar max stat buffs then they can't keep the potion passive. It's 4000 Stamina, Magicka, Health restored on demand with no requirements from your build allowing you to skip running a recovery set in PvP. That's why Argonian all of a sudden became op after Morrowind because ZOS went into that update with the goal of pushing players to run a recovery set instead of double damage sets. Argonian and Redguard are the two races able to get around that because of their unique sustain.

Have you actually PLAYED an Argonian in PvP? Those 4k resources are locked on a 45 second CD, hardly what I'd call "On Demand" and the health portion is halved in PvP. A Stamina build isn't getting much out of the magic restore as its at most 1-2 more casts of a utility ability, at the most and the 4k Stamina is useful sure but about par with what a race like Bosmer or Redguard would have naturally earned back/saved, due to their own racial passives. On Magic builds, it has a bit more usage as it'll grant you 1 extra break free or dodge but that's not much better than what an Altmer or Dunmer would provide either.

The potion passive does NOT allow you to ignore sustain in PvP. This is a flat out myth and anyone that has played Argonian would know that.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

miteba wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of balance was to make every race attractive for any role?

It's not.

You are wrong. Whole this racial ballance was meant to make all races go all roles and classes while equaly strong.
So yes thats why they changed racials

I dont agree...i think people sometimes mix racial rebalance with "all roles to any race".
Its logical that each race will be predominant to some roles (DD, tank, healer) and affinity (magical, physical and both)...because of their racial/physical attributes and lore wise.
And it is obvious that some races will fit better in PVE and others on PVP.

If it were to be a perfect balance, in "all roles for any race" perspective, then we should have all racials equal with only the skin difference and lore tweaks without combat, sustain and resistance attributes.
-} Lore tweaks like the argonian swim speed for instance.
-} Without resistance attributes because if not all people would choose dunmer or argonian since fire and poison resistances are the most common

Well that's the problem, they built Argonians around lore that was really never in the game till Skyrim when racial identity started getting messed up. They were never healers or tanks back when I started playing the TES series. They had an affinity for Mysticism and Illusion not Restoration. Also we were 100% immune to poisons and 75% resistant to disease. Our stats were +int,+agi,+spd and -End so where this magic tanking power comes from I don't know. The intelligence helped with Alchemy, Illusion,and Mysticism, as well as the physical aspect of the Argonians. We have the Shadowscales, Born under the sign of Shadow they are sent to the Dark Brotherhood to train their whole life to be assassins. So why aren't we a dps race if lore is factored in here?

The most sensible thing, in my opinion, would be for Argonians to have a Magicka and Stamina bonus like Dunmer, and instead of Weapon/Spell Power they keep their potion passive, which effectively would make them the sustain hybrid counterpart to the Dark Elves. Currently we lack that "archetype", and it would fit perfectly for Argonians.

Races got rebalanced in large part because of how unbalanced Argonian has been for over a year in PvP. That is why they got nerfed now instead of buffed like other Races. Suggesting they turn around and give them a large max Stam and Magicka buff and keep the Potion passive, the main thing making them overperform, is just silly.

Dark Elf has no recovery. If you want Argonian to get similar max stat buffs then they can't keep the potion passive. It's 4000 Stamina, Magicka, Health restored on demand with no requirements from your build allowing you to skip running a recovery set in PvP. That's why Argonian all of a sudden became op after Morrowind because ZOS went into that update with the goal of pushing players to run a recovery set instead of double damage sets. Argonian and Redguard are the two races able to get around that because of their unique sustain.

Have you actually PLAYED an Argonian in PvP? Those 4k resources are locked on a 45 second CD, hardly what I'd call "On Demand" and the health portion is halved in PvP. A Stamina build isn't getting much out of the magic restore as its at most 1-2 more casts of a utility ability, at the most and the 4k Stamina is useful sure but about par with what a race like Bosmer or Redguard would have naturally earned back/saved, due to their own racial passives. On Magic builds, it has a bit more usage as it'll grant you 1 extra break free or dodge but that's not much better than what an Altmer or Dunmer would provide either.

The potion passive does NOT allow you to ignore sustain in PvP. This is a flat out myth and anyone that has played Argonian would know that.

It is on demand because you don't have to use it until you actually need it most. Normal regen is of little help when your almost completely out of Stamina or Magicka, that's why you typically use a potion during those moments and Argonian currently on live when using a tri stat potion gets 60% more Stamina and Magicka back and a larger padding on the health. That extra rush of resources makes a noticeable difference in resetting a fight.

The biggest difference between normal regen and Argonians regen though is you get the full return on Argonian regardless of the time your Magicka or Stamina regen is stopped. In PvP combat half of what your doing involves blocking, roll dodgeing, or sprinting all of which stops Stam regen completely and then you have key skills like Mist Form on a Magplar that stops Magicka regen. That's why every tank was switching on live to Argonian because much of your time is spent holding block.

And I said it let's you skip running a sustain set. That means you can sustain off a recovery drink and maybe at most one recovery bonus on your monster set or jewelry. On classes like Templar and DK you can do this easily because of the passive regen from Battleroar and Rune Focus.

Exemple for Magicka:
I assume 70% bonus to magicka recovery from CP/Passives/Buffs.
Potion: Essence of Spell Power

With 3 infused glyph of magicka recovery
Potion restore 7582+4000 = 11582 magicka every 45s = 257 per second
3x270x1.7 Magicka Recovery = 1377 Magicka Recovery = 689 per second
257+689 = 946/s

With 3 infused glyph of potion glyphs
Potion restore 7582+4000 = 11582 magicka every 21s = 551 per second

Difference: -395 magicka / second

Narthalion wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Races got rebalanced in large part because of how unbalanced Argonian has been for over a year in PvP. .

Show me where ZOS said this.

I find it absurd that they would create this much upheaval, dedicate the hours and hours of development and testing time to rework every race in the game, when by your logic they could have just nerfed Argonians and been done with it.

I suspect you are making this up, as on its face it appears baseless and wrong. So if you can, link a quote from ZOS that proves your claim. If you can't do that...then I ain't buyin' it.

We've had discussions going in this forum every single PTS cycle asking for a race rebalance specifically because of Argonian and the races that were majorly underperforming like Nord and Breton for over a year. There's been countless threads in the general forum areas asking for a nerf to Argonian or to buff the other weaker races to the same level. This was not out of the blue by any stretch. All you have to do is use the search bar.

Argonian was the only race in this entire rebalance that was straight up nerfed. ZOS specifically stated in the developers notes for those changes to Argonian that the race was mathematically performing twice that of other races. They took this time to try and redo all of the races but Argonian was the only one that met the nerf hammer for a reason.

It's like you guys shocked by the changes to Argonian paid no attention to this PTS forum until someone told you that Argonian had been nerfed.

I would point out that ZOS wasn't even factually correct in their presentation of the Argonian changes. They said: "Now they have more stats in regards to what the goal of the race is"

The sum total of which is 1% more healing done.

Meanwhile, Magicka stayed around the same (unless you had significantly less than 30k magicka to begin with), and health dropped about 1k for every 10k you had over the initial 10k (again, rounding the math here). And the healing received is just gone, along with the poison resistance. Disease resistance went up...I hesitate to say that serves a goal though, in this context.

So if we feel like we've been fed a line of bull...right there it is.