How to protect guild against robbery? (ZOS wont help)

Mr_Walker · February 2019

zParallaxz wrote: »

I bet I’m not the only one in this thread who’s scammed before or is close friends with someone who scammed.

Not something to brag about....

magikarper · February 2019

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

green_villain · February 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Actually this goes a better further then usual scamming with them changing their name to hid the theif. Just tell customer service their is error in bank history that says username doesn't exists so you don't know what happened to your items. Cause technically you are supposed to know username of who took item.

submititng a ticket now

Monte_Cristo · February 2019

I didn't know you could change your @name.

Skwor · February 2019

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

green_villain · February 2019

Skwor wrote: »

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

if someone unknown robbed your credit card the bank will investigate and will provide some vebrose info to clear the situation

Skwor · February 2019

Pevey wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Leocaran wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

There is no way to really know if someone is untrustworthy. We can't meaningfully vet players. People can easily play the long game.

Agree. It's really laughable people saying you can know someone by MMORPG. You barely can do that in real life, and you still will be wrong all the time. But in an online anonymous roleplay game, without any actual personal contact... I'm baffled.
Unless I'm surrounded by mind-reading psychic prophets and (of course) don't know it.

I have had phone calls, skype calls, discord calls, discord video, written communications and even visited people in person. One can also search them online for background as to if they are at least real. It is actually fairly easy to establish a reasonable level of comfort as to who a person is.

It is very likely the OP knew absolutly nothing of the thief other than his in game identity AND from the post the same can be said of all the other officers who appearantly have/had full access to the guild bank. I am not trying to call the OP out, quite the contrary, once he/she understands they do have the power to manage this their gaming experience will be much better.

Skype, in person, blah blah blah. None of this means anything. You don't know the person. A certain percentage of human beings are sociopaths. They are, by definition, good at manipulating people, even in person. Such is life.

You are basically saying that even in large trade guilds with tons of work to do, the GM must always do it all and trust no one to share any of the work. I say instead that ZOS needs to develop better tools.

Leadership is hard. In a large trading guild yes you should be doing much more to establish officer credibility or suffer and do it all youself.
Another way to do so is a form of collateral, if your officers have kicked in several million over the months to support the guild they are not likely to steal.

Mecanista · February 2019

With all due respect, you shouldn't keep your personal belongings in a Guild Bank.
Guild Bank isn't private bank, unless you kick everyone and keep it to yourself OR you put people of trust to manage the storage (which there is a risk to be taken).

Dealing with missing things is a common issue of communitarian storage. That's why you only throw things that you're not gonna use anymore, so somebody else can take advantage of it.

Royaji · February 2019

green_villain wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

if someone unknown robbed your credit card the bank will investigate and will provide some vebrose info to clear the situation

That is not a good analogy. "Robbing" means taking something you were not authorised to take. The issue with all "our guild bank got robbed!" situations in ESO is that it is not a robbery. It is similar to you handing your credit card to someone else and telling them the pin-code. Even if they were to spend all your money they were technically authorised to do it and it is your own fault.

You can't take anything from the bank unless you are given access. And that access is an all or nothing thing. So once you gave someone access they can technically take everything because you are the one who allowed them to do it. Any kind of additional "don't take too much" rule is purely based on trust and that's why you should either never give access to guild banks to people you do not trust or always be aware that someone might take everything (once again, because you allowed them) and not keep anything valuable in the guild bank.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · February 2019

Royaji wrote: »

green_villain wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

if someone unknown robbed your credit card the bank will investigate and will provide some vebrose info to clear the situation

That is not a good analogy. "Robbing" means taking something you were not authorised to take. The issue with all "our guild bank got robbed!" situations in ESO is that it is not a robbery. It is similar to you handing your credit card to someone else and telling them the pin-code. Even if they were to spend all your money they were technically authorised to do it and it is your own fault.

You can't take anything from the bank unless you are given access. And that access is an all or nothing thing. So once you gave someone access they can technically take everything because you are the one who allowed them to do it. Any kind of additional "don't take too much" rule is purely based on trust and that's why you should either never give access to guild banks to people you do not trust or always be aware that someone might take everything (once again, because you allowed them) and not keep anything valuable in the guild bank.

Actually this is not true. You are giving them access not concent.
The same would be if someone who was visiting your house took your car keys off the table and stole your car. People don't say "you shouldn't have let that guy in your house" or "you shouldn't keep your keys in your house"

Theft of items is still theft. Access granted or not.

If it was me I'd add all the officers to friends list then ignore the @name who stole the stuff. It will likely remove whoever had that @ name from your friends list. Might not work so far after the fact but worth a shot.

Arthur_Spoonfondle · February 2019

I was in a WoW guild, many years ago, that suffered an overnight guild bank clear-out, by a trusted officer who had had a disagreement with the guild leader. Blizzard restored all the stolen items and there was none of the "hard luck, you're on your on own" attitude, displayed here by Zenimax.

It is never a good thing when a company has a "tough, we don't care" policy with regard to sorting out unforeseen issues.

I strongly suspect part of the problem is the way Zenimax have organised the guild structure in TESO. Guilds in WoW, Rift and others, are usually groups of like-minded players who are either already friends or, get to know each other as they play together. TESO's massive trading guilds, together with the option to join up to five guilds, means that just won't happen. Another of Zenimax's poor decisions with regard to this game's design.

victory.immortalb16_ESO · February 2019

It's not theft. You granted access to the bank, which is like saying 'deposit or withdraw whatever you want, without limit'. That's because the bank access is an all or nothing access.

It's not similar to letting someone into your house and them stealing the car. When you let someone into your house you aren't granting them access to your car. When you grant access to the guild bank you are literally saying 'take whatever you want/need/feel like'. This is why many guilds are very restrictive on access- if you want something from the guild bank you ask for it and someone removes it and posts it to you.

Otherwise, don't put anything in there you actually need or expect to remain there- it's a communal bank once you grant access and anyone is free to take or deposit anything they like. In essence, you have signed over your bank to share with whoever you grant access to.

Is it 'right' to take things without asking? Clearly morally not. But there is no way to enforce the rule even if you make that rule clear in your guild when you grant access, so think long and hard before granting someone access.

I have access to the guild bank in one of my trade guilds, but would never withdraw anything of value before checking with the boss- and even then I'd probably just go and buy it instead.

Asha_11_ESO · February 2019

OP, it just really sucks. You dared to trust someone to be an officer, and as it turned out, your trust was misplaced. I think there's often an implicit agreement when we trust someone as a guild officer, that their motives are based on benefiting the guild. And that by giving someone access, it's not permission for them to take everything of value from your bank on the sly. You just have to learn from these bad experiences, and be more cautious about who you trust or what valuables you give people access to.

I think there could be better guild management tools and permissions, but that's neither here nor there. We just have to work with what we're given.

Pevey · February 2019

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

I didn't know you could change your @name.

Right!?!? This is the core issue in this case that people keep overlooking.

Royaji · February 2019

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

green_villain wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

if someone unknown robbed your credit card the bank will investigate and will provide some vebrose info to clear the situation

That is not a good analogy. "Robbing" means taking something you were not authorised to take. The issue with all "our guild bank got robbed!" situations in ESO is that it is not a robbery. It is similar to you handing your credit card to someone else and telling them the pin-code. Even if they were to spend all your money they were technically authorised to do it and it is your own fault.

You can't take anything from the bank unless you are given access. And that access is an all or nothing thing. So once you gave someone access they can technically take everything because you are the one who allowed them to do it. Any kind of additional "don't take too much" rule is purely based on trust and that's why you should either never give access to guild banks to people you do not trust or always be aware that someone might take everything (once again, because you allowed them) and not keep anything valuable in the guild bank.

Actually this is not true. You are giving them access not concent.
The same would be if someone who was visiting your house took your car keys off the table and stole your car. People don't say "you shouldn't have let that guy in your house" or "you shouldn't keep your keys in your house"

Theft of items is still theft. Access granted or not.

If it was me I'd add all the officers to friends list then ignore the @name who stole the stuff. It will likely remove whoever had that @ name from your friends list. Might not work so far after the fact but worth a shot.

Once again, that's a wrong example. When you invite your friend to your house you do not give them permission to take your car keys. You wouldn't call it a robbery if you gave your friend keys to your car though, right? When you give someone access to guild bank you do give them permission to take everything from it. That's how this system is designed.

redspecter23 · February 2019

Royaji wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

green_villain wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

if someone unknown robbed your credit card the bank will investigate and will provide some vebrose info to clear the situation

That is not a good analogy. "Robbing" means taking something you were not authorised to take. The issue with all "our guild bank got robbed!" situations in ESO is that it is not a robbery. It is similar to you handing your credit card to someone else and telling them the pin-code. Even if they were to spend all your money they were technically authorised to do it and it is your own fault.

You can't take anything from the bank unless you are given access. And that access is an all or nothing thing. So once you gave someone access they can technically take everything because you are the one who allowed them to do it. Any kind of additional "don't take too much" rule is purely based on trust and that's why you should either never give access to guild banks to people you do not trust or always be aware that someone might take everything (once again, because you allowed them) and not keep anything valuable in the guild bank.

Actually this is not true. You are giving them access not concent.
The same would be if someone who was visiting your house took your car keys off the table and stole your car. People don't say "you shouldn't have let that guy in your house" or "you shouldn't keep your keys in your house"

Theft of items is still theft. Access granted or not.

If it was me I'd add all the officers to friends list then ignore the @name who stole the stuff. It will likely remove whoever had that @ name from your friends list. Might not work so far after the fact but worth a shot.

Once again, that's a wrong example. When you invite your friend to your house you do not give them permission to take your car keys. You wouldn't call it a robbery if you gave your friend keys to your car though, right? When you give someone access to guild bank you do give them permission to take everything from it. That's how this system is designed.

And that would be fine IF the op could at least determine who took all the items. Please don't overlook that this is the actual issue here. A person cleaning out the bank sucks, but we can all mostly agree that is a trust issue and is up to the players to police themselves. The core issue in this situation is the inability to determine who did that. We are meant to know who withdraws from the bank, but the name change has prevented that. You could even call it an exploit.

therift · February 2019

Pevey wrote: »

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

I didn't know you could change your @name.

Right!?!? This is the core issue in this case that people keep overlooking.

This issue has been addressed several times, actually.

And I predict that ZoS will not accede to OP's request.

1) OP granted permission to a certain number of players to withdraw items from OP's guild bank.

2) One of these players withdrew items.

3) The player who withdrew items changed his/her account name in order to disguise his/her withdrawals

4) OP is asking ZoS to examine the account details of all players to whom he granted guild bank access and report to him the account name of the player who withdrew items under a particular account name.

OP is asking ZoS to violate two ZoS policies: (1) share player account details with another player and (2) act as policeman/arbiter of alleged violations of a private agreement amongst players, to whit: adhere to a guild's policy on guild bank withdrawals.

I understand that most guilds have policies on guild bank access. I am sure that ZoS is aware of this, and I am sure that ZoS is aware that a supermajority of players agree that excessive guild bank withdrawals or emptying a guild bank is not fair play.

Unfortunately, such agreements and consensus of opinion are essentially private agreements among players, and ZoS is under no obligation to investigate and enforce them.

Reverb · February 2019

green_villain wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

if someone unknown robbed your credit card the bank will investigate and will provide some vebrose info to clear the situation

Because they are legally obligated to do so, not because they care.

But if their investigation reveals that you gave your credit card to someone, you are liable for their purchases. “I gave him my card but I hoped he wouldn’t max it out” isn’t a valid defense. The same concept applies here.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2019

Guild banks are unsusable - and therefore useless in ESO, given the shortcomings of the tools provided, as explained all along this thread.
It's simply too much risk and hassle - especially considering that most players just throw junk in there.
I consider guild bank to be extra 500 slots of storage for the GM's private use, as a thank you for the time and work he/she puts into the guild.
Any other usage is simply impossible, the equation benefit vs. risk vs. hassle being hugely negative.

redspecter23 · February 2019

therift wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

I didn't know you could change your @name.

Right!?!? This is the core issue in this case that people keep overlooking.

This issue has been addressed several times, actually.

And I predict that ZoS will not accede to OP's request.

1) OP granted permission to a certain number of players to withdraw items from OP's guild bank.

2) One of these players withdrew items.

3) The player who withdrew items changed his/her account name in order to disguise his/her withdrawals

4) OP is asking ZoS to examine the account details of all players to whom he granted guild bank access and report to him the account name of the player who withdrew items under a particular account name.

OP is asking ZoS to violate two ZoS policies: (1) share player account details with another player and (2) act as policeman/arbiter of alleged violations of a private agreement amongst players, to whit: adhere to a guild's policy on guild bank withdrawals.

I understand that most guilds have policies on guild bank access. I am sure that ZoS is aware of this, and I am sure that ZoS is aware that a supermajority of players agree that excessive guild bank withdrawals or emptying a guild bank is not fair play.

Unfortunately, such agreements and consensus of opinion are essentially private agreements among players, and ZoS is under no obligation to investigate and enforce them.

It may be true that ZOS is under no obligation to investigate in this situation, but I think it's quite reasonable to request a change to the current system that does allow full tracking of guild bank withdrawals, even during and after name changes. What's done has been done, but it highlights an issue that could be changed to prevent things like this in the future. Asking ZOS to become an arbiter of the alleged allegations is probably not something they will do, but I think it's fully reasonable to know the name of the person that has made guild bank withdrawals as that is knowledge we are supposed to have access to.

therift · February 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

I didn't know you could change your @name.

Right!?!? This is the core issue in this case that people keep overlooking.

This issue has been addressed several times, actually.

And I predict that ZoS will not accede to OP's request.

1) OP granted permission to a certain number of players to withdraw items from OP's guild bank.

2) One of these players withdrew items.

3) The player who withdrew items changed his/her account name in order to disguise his/her withdrawals

4) OP is asking ZoS to examine the account details of all players to whom he granted guild bank access and report to him the account name of the player who withdrew items under a particular account name.

OP is asking ZoS to violate two ZoS policies: (1) share player account details with another player and (2) act as policeman/arbiter of alleged violations of a private agreement amongst players, to whit: adhere to a guild's policy on guild bank withdrawals.

I understand that most guilds have policies on guild bank access. I am sure that ZoS is aware of this, and I am sure that ZoS is aware that a supermajority of players agree that excessive guild bank withdrawals or emptying a guild bank is not fair play.

Unfortunately, such agreements and consensus of opinion are essentially private agreements among players, and ZoS is under no obligation to investigate and enforce them.

It may be true that ZOS is under no obligation to investigate in this situation, but I think it's quite reasonable to request a change to the current system that does allow full tracking of guild bank withdrawals, even during and after name changes. What's done has been done, but it highlights an issue that could be changed to prevent things like this in the future. Asking ZOS to become an arbiter of the alleged allegations is probably not something they will do, but I think it's fully reasonable to know the name of the person that has made guild bank withdrawals as that is knowledge we are supposed to have access to.

I agree with you on the account name change issue.

zParallaxz · February 2019

Mr_Walker wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

I bet I’m not the only one in this thread who’s scammed before or is close friends with someone who scammed.

Not something to brag about....

There was more behind the statement before comments were deleted. I openly admit I’ve scammed two times in my career of playing the game since v14. I’m not condoning yet, but I’m also not giving sympathy. It’s a learning experience. But the truth still stands, there is at least a couple people in this thread who have either scammed or have a close friend who has scammed on this game. All in all, it’s not Zos’s job to fix the situation.

zParallaxz · February 2019

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

So if someone has a different opinion than an accuser of a alleged crime it’s victim blaming? Zos should never engage in this type of petty monitoring on a M rated game. I would assume most adults who play this game know that not everyone you play with is a saint online. Hell some people like to role play as thieves, now your begging Zos to ruin their immersion.

SpacemanSpiff1 · February 2019

I've had this happen in a former guild. GM was very trusting and promoted people she kinda knew. One kid emptied the guild bank and left during off-hours.

Don't promote people you don't know well.

zParallaxz · February 2019

Reverb wrote: »

green_villain wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

magikarper wrote: »

A lot of blaming the victim in this thread...when someone is betrayed, it doesn't automatically mean the crime was the fault of the victim. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't in this particular case, but those who are certain it was OP's fault are jumping to conclusions. Those who say the names should be tracked dynamically are correct.

No one is blaming the OP. I am saying the OP could have preveted the event. The thief is still wrong.
Real life has a very similar analogy. Should a husband or wife clean out a bank account they share the legal authorities will do nothing about it.
Even if a divorce is then filed afterwords, if they money was already spent before the filing, it is not part of the shared assets anymore. Why would you expect more from ZOS than what is even possible in a real legal system?

if someone unknown robbed your credit card the bank will investigate and will provide some vebrose info to clear the situation

Because they are legally obligated to do so, not because they care.

But if their investigation reveals that you gave your credit card to someone, you are liable for their purchases. “I gave him my card but I hoped he wouldn’t max it out” isn’t a valid defense. The same concept applies here.

Flawless explanation

green_villain · February 2019

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

I've had this happen in a former guild. GM was very trusting and promoted people she kinda knew. One kid emptied the guild bank and left during off-hours.

Don't promote people you don't know well.

its not about trust
read first post again

WeerW3ir · February 2019

Easy dont give access to them.

therift · February 2019

green_villain wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

I've had this happen in a former guild. GM was very trusting and promoted people she kinda knew. One kid emptied the guild bank and left during off-hours.

Don't promote people you don't know well.

its not about trust
read first post again

The really nasty thing, green_villain, is this person is still in your guild. I sympathize with your predicament.

zParallaxz · February 2019

In my brutally honest opinion, Zos shouldn’t restore any item unless it was lost due to a bug. There needs to be consequences for decisions you make in the game. Why should there be limitless advantages of having a guild bank? On top of having the notion of having items items restored if someone decides to rob you. Hell even in Skyrim you had random bandits break into your house and steal.

zParallaxz · February 2019

green_villain wrote: »

one of my officers changed his name
robbed all my bank
and then changed name back

i dont know who it was also Zenimax support wont help too = they wont tell me who is the real thief, his @id
i told him @id in guild history doesnt exist anymore but only answer i got was

its normal that Zenimax encourages robbery?

The most important question is what would you have done IF you actually found his name. Would you then report it and submit a ticket for your lost items and to hopefully ban him? But let’s not forget everyone is human and no one is perfect. What if in actually you did something to him that he deemed offensive, and in revenge he robbed your guild bank? What if he’s your friend and sent the stuff he took to several other accounts and then finally the items make it back to your account, on top of Zos restoring your items. These are the reasons Zos shouldn’t be involved in civil disputes amongst players. Yes there should be a better system, but....... then again this has been happening since the start of the game and I’m sure you knew the consequences of giving people guild bank access. You only wanted the guys name to report him, we are beyond the topic of him changing his @id. You even stated Zos won’t refund the stolen items so your intentions are clear.