How to protect guild against robbery? (ZOS wont help)

green_villain

one of my officers changed his name
robbed all my bank
and then changed name back

i dont know who it was also Zenimax support wont help too = they wont tell me who is the real thief, his @id
i told him @id in guild history doesnt exist anymore but only answer i got was



its normal that Zenimax encourages robbery?

Noctus

green_villain wrote: »

one of my officers changed his name
robbed all my bank
and then changed name back

i dont know who it was also Zenimax support wont help too = they wont tell me who is the real thief, his @id
i told him @id in guild history doesnt exist anymore but only answer i got was



its normal that Zenimax encourages robbery?

ask for ur stuff back but dont ask for the name of the person. this is a difficult case since it was ur decision to make that person an officer and give him access to ur bank. who would do that ? havin ur guildbank open for people that u dont know well is a big mistake. they cant give u the name becouse of privacy rules.

seriously tho what did u write them to get such answer. writing u "are up to the guild to decide" when ur the guild leader. a guild is a monarchy.

green_villain

Noctus wrote: »

green_villain wrote: »

one of my officers changed his name
robbed all my bank
and then changed name back

i dont know who it was also Zenimax support wont help too = they wont tell me who is the real thief, his @id
i told him @id in guild history doesnt exist anymore but only answer i got was



its normal that Zenimax encourages robbery?

ask for ur stuff back but dont ask for the name of the person. this is a difficult case since it was ur decision to make that person an officer and give him access to ur bank. who would do that ? havin ur guildbank open for people that u dont know well is a big mistake. they cant give u the name becouse of privacy rules.

seriously tho what did u write them to get such answer. writing u "are up to the guild to decide" when ur the guild leader. a guild is a monarchy.

they also told me they will not help me to get any items or gold back

Xerikten

such a stance isn't uncommon in mmos for some time. there might be some out there that might help but they are in the minority.


even with the name of the person there really isn't anything you can do without getting yourself banned for your behavior. ie posting or shouting in chat what the person did or harassing him.

Noctus

ask malacath to curse him and dont give anybody the rights to take from the guildbank. unless u have gaming buddies that u know for 5-10 years

Tandor

How long had he been in your guild? How well known was he to you or your other Officers when you both recruited and promoted him?

redspecter23

You have a few options.

Boot all officers as you have to assume them all guilty.
Demote or remove bank access to all officers and call it a learning experience.
Don't put anything useful in the bank ever.

In any situation, it's clear that players don't have the proper tools to police themselves. If a name can be changed, then changed back and ZOS will give you no evidence that it has happened, then this thing is likely to occur again and again. If it's up to players to guard ourselves, we need the information necessary to do that. It should be an easy thing to add to the guild log that a player name has changed.

Glaiceana

It's always a difficult subject. One way is to not allow anyone to have access to the bank at all. If someone wants something, they ask for it and you or a trusted person can withdraw it for them.
The other way is to warn people that anything you put in the bank is something you have to be willing to lose. Most people understand this.
Never give access to the gold in your bank.
I am very sorry that one of your officers did this to you.
The couple times this has happened to me, my guildies were the greatest and simply refilled the bank with useful items within a couple hours. It was as if the robber hadn't even cleared it at all! I then simply increased the work required to reach the permissions for the bank to prevent it happening again. I hope it goes this smoothly for you!

RebornV3x

Talking from experience your out of luck coming from other MMOs that usually have some type of withdraw limits on gold and items I'm surprised this wasn't a feature of guilds sadly guild banks end up being the GMs personal bank which is a shame guildmates should be allowed to take out a limited amount of gold or items or both per day per account but not in ESO...

DaveMoeDee

green_villain wrote: »

one of my officers changed his name
robbed all my bank
and then changed name back

i dont know who it was also Zenimax support wont help too = they wont tell me who is the real thief, his @id
i told him @id in guild history doesnt exist anymore but only answer i got was



its normal that Zenimax encourages robbery?

This is absurd design. Any bank transactions should point to an account record that doesn't change. Any names reported should either be dynamically shown (meaning current name for a character), though it is possible that such a design will have issues with deleted characters, or just use the account name. I always assumed it showed account name as guild membership is by account, as are guild security settings.

Edit: I should add that ZOS probably doesn't want to expose the unique ids used behind the scenes for each account and they also don't wan to dynamically generate all the log records (meaning there is the real key in the record that is presented as the current name) because logs just get sooooooooo large. But this setup is not acceptable.

Skwor

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

green_villain

Tandor wrote: »

How long had he been in your guild? How well known was he to you or your other Officers when you both recruited and promoted him?

read first post - i dont know who was that

redspecter23

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

But the tools are not sufficient in this case. A player was able to bypass the in game records by changing their name. The GM has no access to the changed name. I'd say that is the definition of insufficient tools. Now if the records kept track of the name dynamically or if there were a record of the name change, the guild could take actions against the player. This isn't just about someone taking things from the guild bank. It's about not knowing who did it. The tools are in place to know, but the ability to change your @ name back and forth bypasses that knowledge. I'd say that's a glaring oversight, especially if ZOS can't assist on their end and let the GM know the name of the player that accessed the bank (which should be tracked in the logs normally).

SFDB

You need to do a test to figure out which one of them can change their identity and then back again.

Skwor

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

But the tools are not sufficient in this case. A player was able to bypass the in game records by changing their name. The GM has no access to the changed name. I'd say that is the definition of insufficient tools. Now if the records kept track of the name dynamically or if there were a record of the name change, the guild could take actions against the player. This isn't just about someone taking things from the guild bank. It's about not knowing who did it. The tools are in place to know, but the ability to change your @ name back and forth bypasses that knowledge. I'd say that's a glaring oversight, especially if ZOS can't assist on their end and let the GM know the name of the player that accessed the bank (which should be tracked in the logs normally).

Sorry but the tools are, an untrustworthy player was made an officer and it appears from the OP post several officers could be the culprit. This speaks to poor control of who has access to the guild bank. That is not a ZOS issue, that is a personal issue.

Minyassa

Since ESO has yet to give us the tools, and no one has written an add-on, mind-reading has not been instituted in the game. It doesn't matter how long you know someone. People can take a notion to do something evil for their own reasons and it doesn't reflect on those that they duped. In fact, the sort of person who would rob a guild bank is very good at getting people to trust them. How about not deflecting blame onto the guild master and focusing on the fact that the game records should not change just because someone's name did? That's absolutely on ZOS, they are the ones who control the coding. Their system failed to keep track properly.

green_villain

Skwor wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

But the tools are not sufficient in this case. A player was able to bypass the in game records by changing their name. The GM has no access to the changed name. I'd say that is the definition of insufficient tools. Now if the records kept track of the name dynamically or if there were a record of the name change, the guild could take actions against the player. This isn't just about someone taking things from the guild bank. It's about not knowing who did it. The tools are in place to know, but the ability to change your @ name back and forth bypasses that knowledge. I'd say that's a glaring oversight, especially if ZOS can't assist on their end and let the GM know the name of the player that accessed the bank (which should be tracked in the logs normally).

Sorry but the tools are, an untrustworthy player was made an officer and it appears from the OP post several officers could be the culprit. This speaks to poor control of who has access to the guild bank. That is not a ZOS issue, that is a personal issue.

its not a personal issue
you will understand when similar will happend to you
no matter how trustworthy your officers will be

MLGProPlayer

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

How were the tools sufficient in this case?

OP wants to figure out who stole the items but they can't because the tools don't provide that information.

MLGProPlayer

OP, keep escalating the matter (keep replying to emails saying you are not satisfied with the outcome). You might get a resolution eventually.

Maybe ask ZOS if they can remove the player from the guild for you.

ZonasArch

green_villain wrote: »

one of my officers changed his name
robbed all my bank
and then changed name back

i dont know who it was also Zenimax support wont help too = they wont tell me who is the real thief, his @id
i told him @id in guild history doesnt exist anymore but only answer i got was



its normal that Zenimax encourages robbery?

Low blow, yes, but your fault for not choosing better people. It's something common in my profession, this kind of accountability. If someone under your orders screws up, it's your fault. Plain and simple. You chose them, you gave them powers, you told them how it goes, it's on you to choose the right ones for the job.

One can't tell who is who over the internet, so it's up to you to decide if you're taking the risk or doing everything alone. Some people do it alone, btw. Your choice.

I'm really sorry, btw, but yeah... Life lesson, being a cynic is a life saver. Everyone sucks, and until double proven otherwise, everyone is out to get you, and they will if you let them.

therift

I'm going to offer my spin on your situation, but you will not like it:

By providing access to your guild bank, you gave permission to remove anything and everything from that guild bank.

That's how guild bank access works in ESO. It's an all or nothing option, and that is why ZoS will not get involved. You can set rules and limitations upon those whom you grant access, but all those rules and limitations rely on trust. It's apparent that the person who cleaned out your guild bank knew you would not approve... but in the end, as far as ZoS is concerned, you gave that player permission to empty the bank. You're wasting your time trying to get ZoS to enforce your rules.

I can't count the number of times someone has emptied a guild bank of someone I know. It happens all too frequently. You're going to have to move on and remember this incident in the future.

BrokenString

ZonasArch wrote: »

green_villain wrote: »

one of my officers changed his name
robbed all my bank
and then changed name back

i dont know who it was also Zenimax support wont help too = they wont tell me who is the real thief, his @id
i told him @id in guild history doesnt exist anymore but only answer i got was



its normal that Zenimax encourages robbery?

Low blow, yes, but your fault for not choosing better people. It's something common in my profession, this kind of accountability. If someone under your orders screws up, it's your fault. Plain and simple. You chose them, you gave them powers, you told them how it goes, it's on you to choose the right ones for the job.

One can't tell who is who over the internet, so it's up to you to decide if you're taking the risk or doing everything alone. Some people do it alone, btw. Your choice.

I'm really sorry, btw, but yeah... Life lesson, being a cynic is a life saver. Everyone sucks, and until double proven otherwise, everyone is out to get you, and they will if you let them.

I agree with this, if you appoint someone and they screw up, it is your fault, happened to me at work. Nevertheless it was something really bad, getting robbed even in a game is horrible. I'm sorry OP, I truly am, nobody deserves that. Try to move on and learn from it.

Skwor

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

How were the tools sufficient in this case?

OP wants to figure out who stole the items but they can't because the tools don't provide that information.

OP gave access to a thief, it is that simple. I am GM in 1 guild, a senior officer in another and an officer in a third guild. All three keep a very tight access on the guild bank and gold. It is that simple. Incovienent at times but still easy to avoid even with ESO guild tools.

redspecter23

Skwor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

How were the tools sufficient in this case?

OP wants to figure out who stole the items but they can't because the tools don't provide that information.

OP gave access to a thief, it is that simple. I am GM in 1 guild, a senior officer in another and an officer in a third guild. All three keep a very tight access on the guild bank and gold. It is that simple. Incovienent at times but still easy to avoid even with ESO guild tools.

And what would you do in a similar situation? It was never mentioned that the OP didn't completely trust his officers. That is an assumption. You completely trust your officers, but there is never any guarantee this won't happen to you as well. If it does happen, how do you know who took the items? Do you blame all your officers and have them all be punished because of one bad one? What if it were a hack against a player? Trust doesn't even factor in at that point. Again, it's not about someone emptying the bank. It's about someone being held responsible and the proper tools are not in place to allow this.

Skwor

green_villain wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

But the tools are not sufficient in this case. A player was able to bypass the in game records by changing their name. The GM has no access to the changed name. I'd say that is the definition of insufficient tools. Now if the records kept track of the name dynamically or if there were a record of the name change, the guild could take actions against the player. This isn't just about someone taking things from the guild bank. It's about not knowing who did it. The tools are in place to know, but the ability to change your @ name back and forth bypasses that knowledge. I'd say that's a glaring oversight, especially if ZOS can't assist on their end and let the GM know the name of the player that accessed the bank (which should be tracked in the logs normally).

Sorry but the tools are, an untrustworthy player was made an officer and it appears from the OP post several officers could be the culprit. This speaks to poor control of who has access to the guild bank. That is not a ZOS issue, that is a personal issue.

its not a personal issue
you will understand when similar will happend to you
no matter how trustworthy your officers will be

No it won't. Where I am the GM of one guild only I have access to the guild bank. Pain in the ass, sure but I assure you no one will empty my bank.

Skwor

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

How were the tools sufficient in this case?

OP wants to figure out who stole the items but they can't because the tools don't provide that information.

OP gave access to a thief, it is that simple. I am GM in 1 guild, a senior officer in another and an officer in a third guild. All three keep a very tight access on the guild bank and gold. It is that simple. Incovienent at times but still easy to avoid even with ESO guild tools.

And what would you do in a similar situation? It was never mentioned that the OP didn't completely trust his officers. That is an assumption. You completely trust your officers, but there is never any guarantee this won't happen to you as well. If it does happen, how do you know who took the items? Do you blame all your officers and have them all be punished because of one bad one? What if it were a hack against a player? Trust doesn't even factor in at that point. Again, it's not about someone emptying the bank. It's about someone being held responsible and the proper tools are not in place to allow this.

Honestly when you have a leadership role in life you will understand this is entirely a leadership issue.

This is not a meteor falling out of the sky thing. OP made the choice who to trust, that is the issue.

I agree it sucks but such is life.

RogueShark

I think it's less a concern/problem that the guild bank was robbed (it's crappy, yeh, shame ZoS won't do anything) and more of an issue that, as a guild leader, who has access to guild logs, they STILL cannot determine which officer stole from them.

That is a major, glaring flaw with the system that someone can name-change their @ and get away with things like this. The guild log exists for a reason, so people can be held accountable for these types of things and such movement can be tracked, but finding a loophole around it to steal and not be caught is trash and shouldn't be possible.

Tandor

green_villain wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

How long had he been in your guild? How well known was he to you or your other Officers when you both recruited and promoted him?

read first post - i dont know who was that

Thank you. The fact that you haven't a clue which of your Officers this might have been is pretty revealing. How many Officers do you have and what have been your minimum requirements for promoting members to Officer? How many of them do you actually trust enough to rule them out? Who's left?

The only thing that distinguishes this case from the many before it - and those previous cases have been well publicised here and ought to alert GMs to the need to be careful in such matters - is that there appears to have been subterfuge on the part of the Officer in changing his ID and remaining in the guild (although that in itself sounds pretty unlikely), otherwise it's a classic case as always of someone not robbing the guild but simply exercising the powers that were freely given to him by the GM.

As such, it's not robbery and so accusing ZOS of encouraging robbery is out of place, this is down to lax guild management. If someone took stuff you authorised them to take but didn't intend them to take then that's unfortunate, and their behaviour isn't condoned, but ultimately it's down to you to learn from it and move on. It may also be that the guild will be unable to move on in its present form if you don't know which Officers you can now trust and your Officers don't know if they have your trust. All very unfortunate, but nothing that ZOS can be expected to sort out for you.

redspecter23

Skwor wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

How were the tools sufficient in this case?

OP wants to figure out who stole the items but they can't because the tools don't provide that information.

OP gave access to a thief, it is that simple. I am GM in 1 guild, a senior officer in another and an officer in a third guild. All three keep a very tight access on the guild bank and gold. It is that simple. Incovienent at times but still easy to avoid even with ESO guild tools.

And what would you do in a similar situation? It was never mentioned that the OP didn't completely trust his officers. That is an assumption. You completely trust your officers, but there is never any guarantee this won't happen to you as well. If it does happen, how do you know who took the items? Do you blame all your officers and have them all be punished because of one bad one? What if it were a hack against a player? Trust doesn't even factor in at that point. Again, it's not about someone emptying the bank. It's about someone being held responsible and the proper tools are not in place to allow this.

Honestly when you have a leadership role in life you will understand this is entirely a leadership issue.

This is not a meteor falling out of the sky thing. OP made the choice who to trust, that is the issue.

I agree it sucks but such is life.

Thank you for making assumptions about my life without knowing me at all. I do agree it's not the end of the world, but we will agree to disagree that ZOS is providing all the necessary tools to deal with the situation in this case.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I actually think I am with OP on this one, or at least, I understand his frustration with ZOS. Yes, people need to be careful with whom they give access to. That horse doesnt need beaten any harder. That said, the issue lies with a very devious work around where someone seems to be able to change their @name for 20 minutes, rob the guild blind, and change it back again. In other words, it allows players to commit, maybe not a crime, but certainly a distasteful act, with complete anonymity.

I am sorry, but ZOS should at least be able to tell him who did the deed, even if they cant do anything to resolve the underlying theft.

DaveMoeDee

Skwor wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Sorry, bottom line never give access to a player you have not known and validated to be of worthy character.

ZOS really is not to blame here. The tools are sufficient to prevent this issue.

But the tools are not sufficient in this case. A player was able to bypass the in game records by changing their name. The GM has no access to the changed name. I'd say that is the definition of insufficient tools. Now if the records kept track of the name dynamically or if there were a record of the name change, the guild could take actions against the player. This isn't just about someone taking things from the guild bank. It's about not knowing who did it. The tools are in place to know, but the ability to change your @ name back and forth bypasses that knowledge. I'd say that's a glaring oversight, especially if ZOS can't assist on their end and let the GM know the name of the player that accessed the bank (which should be tracked in the logs normally).

Sorry but the tools are, an untrustworthy player was made an officer and it appears from the OP post several officers could be the culprit. This speaks to poor control of who has access to the guild bank. That is not a ZOS issue, that is a personal issue.

There is no way to really know if someone is untrustworthy. We can't meaningfully vet players. People can easily play the long game.

And the tools are NOT there if I can change my account name in the website, do a transaction, and then change it back, and I am a different person with no paper trail.

If access to the guild bank remains when you change your account name, your membership is linked to your record, not just your account name. Clearly they don't want to expose the unique identifiers for our accounts and limit it to the account name, but they need to close this loophole. If the logs can't be improved, they need to quarantine people who change account names so that they have to be approved to take part in the guild again.