Zos’s address to CP rant

Trinity_Is_My_Name · February 2019

Well written. I agree, the game went from a challenge before One Tamriel to super easy. When I visited the PTS to see what One Tamriel was like I was shocked. Craglorn went from hardcore content to shopping at a Thrift store. Super easy. The entire game scaling low level players to CP 160 is and was absurd.

Since One Tamriel the game has been flooded with dozens of sets that are very powerful. You don't have to do much to acquire these powerful sets and steam roll through most dungeons.

Now ZOS wants to do what to CP? Remove it? Weaken it? Heck, ZOS already did this once before and it hurt most players quite a bit pushing many into guess what? Yep, acquiring more powerful gear sets. Seems to me ZOS created what they see as an issue and continue to further exacerbate this "problem".

CP is not the problem in my opinion. Game content is just too easy. Bring back how tough it was before One Tamriel Thrift Store.

Wifeaggro13 · February 2019

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Well written. I agree, the game went from a challenge before One Tamriel to super easy. When I visited the PTS to see what One Tamriel was like I was shocked. Craglorn went from hardcore content to shopping at a Thrift store. Super easy. The entire game scaling low level players to CP 160 is and was absurd.

Since One Tamriel the game has been flooded with dozens of sets that are very powerful. You don't have to do much to acquire these powerful sets and steam roll through most dungeons.

Now ZOS wants to do what to CP? Remove it? Weaken it? Heck, ZOS already did this once before and it hurt most players quite a bit pushing many into guess what? Yep, acquiring more powerful gear sets. Seems to me ZOS created what they see as an issue and continue to further exacerbate this "problem".

CP is not the problem in my opinion. Game content is just too easy. Bring back how tough it was before One Tamriel Thrift Store.

In reality they did create the problem. one of the biggest reasons in the data collection from exit questionare pre tam . Was i cant play with my friends.that had nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with the way the game handled story quests. and isolating players that were in different stages. secondly was the faction isolation. The smart fix would have been to just allow high level players to scale down to play with friends and make the low level player progress through the zones minus faction isolation.Unfortunately ZOS was concenred with selling more boxes and marketed the game and designed it as such. now the box sale market has run dry . We could arm chair quaterback ZOS design all we want they will never please all play styles but when you come to the MMO genre you should make a MMO not a single player RPG with online options.

Commancho · February 2019

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Well written. I agree, the game went from a challenge before One Tamriel to super easy.

One Tamriel has changed the state of the game from "nearly dead" to "2nd most popular MMO in the world".
I suggest creating a poll and we will see who's opinion is more popular ;-)

Skwor · February 2019

Commancho wrote: »

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Well written. I agree, the game went from a challenge before One Tamriel to super easy.

One Tamriel has changed the state of the game from "nearly dead" to "2nd most popular MMO in the world".
I suggest creating a poll and we will see who's opinion is more popular ;-)

While true it is also true that One Tamriel made the game too easy. There is a middle ground path. Reworking or removing CP is not that path.

Fixing scaling, gear sets, mechanics and removing 1 shots is that path.

mairwen85 · February 2019

I happen to like CP, the system has merit in that you can spec into your weaknesses and prop up. Cookie cutter builds aside, it is diverse and generic enough to make for individual builds per playstyle when combined with gear options - - at the same time, it does need taming because of the trickle down effect and knock on for content design. Removing it would be a bad move, shifting concerns like they did before would be a bad move. What I would like to see is expansion of it to include QoL offers like mercantile, mount, carry weight, research time reduction etc or a sacrifice mechanic where increases can have negative impacts elsewhere if beyond a certain value (like a soft cap) - - I'd like to see role specialisation, or prestige class skills and morphs unlocked through investing into constellations relevant to class/role.

There is so much more that could be done with it. What I don't want to see is a global nerf that hits everyone, or the entire system reduced to a dart board of ironically tepid and unrewarding 'rewards'.

Pevey · February 2019

frostz417 wrote: »

Seriously? Avoiding mechanics due to CP? What? I STRONGLY disagree. As someone who’ went from cp 400 to max cp and I did mostly pve (trials vet dlc dungeons) etc. Healers aren’t needed because recently all the vet dlc dungeons zos has created are ALL ONE SHOT MECHANICS.
Falkreath hold, bloodroot force, scalecaller peak, fanglair, March of sacrifices, moon hunter keep. All these dungeons have MULTIPLE 1 shot mechanics.

I agree with this. Darkshade II final boss, especially HM, is perfect example of the way content could be created in a way that makes healers feel wanted and useful.

frostz417 · February 2019

Pevey wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

Seriously? Avoiding mechanics due to CP? What? I STRONGLY disagree. As someone who’ went from cp 400 to max cp and I did mostly pve (trials vet dlc dungeons) etc. Healers aren’t needed because recently all the vet dlc dungeons zos has created are ALL ONE SHOT MECHANICS.
Falkreath hold, bloodroot force, scalecaller peak, fanglair, March of sacrifices, moon hunter keep. All these dungeons have MULTIPLE 1 shot mechanics.

I agree with this. Darkshade II final boss, especially HM, is perfect example of the way content could be created in a way that makes healers feel wanted and useful.

Yep, i agree. If more dungeons were like darkshade II where you had heal checks then the game content would be better.

Castagere · February 2019

Yeah god, forbid they *** off those elitist mid/max meta players and stop putting out OP gear with every freaking update. The nerf to CP is only going to hurt new players and the average/casual players. Have you seen the new gear coming out with the new DLC? You can bet within the first two weeks all those elite players will be running around in those new gear sets at the legendary upgrade.ZOS needs to stop putting out new gear and fix the game before it gets worse. The new passive changes is a good start. Blaming it all on the CP system is just an easy cop-out.

Shantu · February 2019

Some excellent comments in this thread. Are you listening ZOS? Or are the reps you prop up to do that for you listening? If so, let me summarize: CP CREEP IS NOT A PROBLEM, let alone being "responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed)”.

Gina's statement is so bizarrely off-target its a bit staggering. If it truly represents the thinking of devs, this game has more trouble than we realize. Because I truly enjoy most aspects of this game, I'm rooting for the devs to get it right. However, given the nerf-fest over the last couple of years, I'm not optimistic.

All you have to do is spend a little time playing end game content with the average 99% of players and you'll quickly realize that CP is not THE issue. What is more an issue is the insane level of difficulty of vet content that will one shot you for making one wrong move. Regardless of their CP or BiS gear, most people will NEVER complete this content. Who, but a minuscule handful of players feel they are "able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed." I run trials with multiple guilds and I have NEVER heard a single player express this. If this is what ZOS is hearing, then you have to question to whom they are listening to.

Please, come out of your bubble and listen to your average 99% of players. CP is a good system that gives most of us an iota of a fighting chance toward vet content.

Na0cho · February 2019

Has anyone done side by side dps comparisons with full CP points enabled vs 0 cp with same gear?

I would like to see the info. Sorry If someone already posted, didnt read the whole thread.

edit: I realize this doesnt factor in defensive CP points which raise your survivability but I would like to see how much actual DPS you gain from CP.

Pevey · February 2019

CP is not the reason for power creep. The reason that some teams can avoid mechanics is that the difference in this game between doing a good rotation and a good rotation with perfect animation canceling is huge--about 100%. Some people understand the weaving mechanic, but still aren't twitchy enough to be able to do it well, so they will have about half the max possible dps (30k instead of 60k) even with all the BiS gear.

That is an incredible difference. This is NOT a post against this mechanic at all. i think it is fine that this is the way the game works. But ZOS must recognize that very few people can do a parse like Gilliam or Alcast. I bet even within ZOS, where they all claim to play ESO (and I imagine they do), I bet only Gilliam can pull 60k DPS or even anything close to it. The ceiling is possible, but the reality is that it is not achievable for most, no matter how much they hit a dummy. 30k is achievable by the vast majority if they practice. Somewhere between 30 and 60 is most common for endgame progression groups, eg, us crazy people who put in tons of time. But in my experience, average dps (even for people with high CP) is really about 10-15k at most. I imagine ZOS has the player numbers to know for sure.

So I can't help but be a little amused when ZOS wrings their hands about avoiding mechanics and not needing healers. The healing issue is mostly about one-shot mechs. As for out-dpsing mechanics in vet dungeons and trials, there are a tiny minority of elite players who can do that, let them have their fun without making the game harder for everyone else.

Perfect example of making the "problem" (as they see it) worse and then wringing hands about it: Siroria and Relequen. These two sets add dps, yes. But not for average players. They only increase DPS for players who are pretty good at light attack ani canceling (weaving), meaning they only increase dps for players who already had the highest dps. These sets widened the gap. That is fine, I love these sets. This was ZOS's choice to add these sets. But the consequence was raising the dps ceiling without raising the floor. That is a problem now for ZOS because games fail when average players find them too difficult, but ZOS is struggling to create challenging content for the people who can do a really great parse.

THIS is the core issue. NOT cp. Again, I am not against animation canceling. But I think ZOS needs to acknowledge the effect it can have and not balance the game around the Alcasts and Glliams and such, but around the other 99%.

iiYuki · February 2019

I have to agree, I dont understand who is actually complaining about power-creep. Its a fu**ing RPG you are suppose to become more powerful. You get the same amount of loot if the boss takes 30 seconds or 30 minutes to kill.

jainiadral · February 2019

I'm wondering if the issue with mechanics isn't more basic than power creep. The issue seems to be that people are doing what they can to avoid mechanics. Why is that? If mechanics were fun, wouldn't most people be eager to engage with them?

Just putting that out there.

haelene · February 2019

Personally, if they remove CP, I know a lot of people who won't be able to manage dungeons at all, period, and will be forced to stick with old overland content. That will get boring fast, and eventually they will stop playing - let alone buy new content. Who wants to spend money on things they can't enjoy?

Then players like me who love dungeons and more challenging content will be stuck with even longer queues and less willing participants. It's bad for everyone.

This road is a dangerous one that will push middle and bottom tier players far far away and massively widen the gap between the best and worst players unless ZOS can come up with a better system to replace CP (which I do highly doubt they will).

It's unfortunate that ZOS has surrounded themselves with people who can only see through the lens of the "I need a challenge to have fun" playstyle and ignored all the others out there.

Peekachu99 · February 2019

Where is the actual source quote for this and why wasn’t it included in the OP?

TheInfernalRage · February 2019

The system needs an overhaul. Power creep is not good. It's good that ZOS paused the growth of CP because it's becoming ridiculous.

I heard that in Neverwinter online, the devs are solving the problem of not needing healers by going back to classic trinity and removing any self heals from non-healing classes.

And I really think proc sets need to go. There are other ways to consider gears, like amplifying your skills instead of "providing" you with an automatic one out of nowhere.

Pevey · February 2019

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

The system needs an overhaul. Power creep is not good. It's good that ZOS paused the growth of CP because it's becoming ridiculous.

I heard that in Neverwinter online, the devs are solving the problem of not needing healers by going back to classic trinity and removing any self heals from non-healing classes.

And I really think proc sets need to go. There are other ways to consider gears, like amplifying your skills instead of "providing" you with an automatic one out of nowhere.

If ZOS removed self-heals, they would have to go back and rework a whole lot of single-player content, like VMA. i can't see them going this route.

haelene · February 2019

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

The system needs an overhaul. Power creep is not good. It's good that ZOS paused the growth of CP because it's becoming ridiculous.

I heard that in Neverwinter online, the devs are solving the problem of not needing healers by going back to classic trinity and removing any self heals from non-healing classes.

And I really think proc sets need to go. There are other ways to consider gears, like amplifying your skills instead of "providing" you with an automatic one out of nowhere.

Power creep is actually quite good from my perspective, when kept in check. It allows people to access older content who wouldn't otherwise be able to, thus keeping the queue healthy (or as healthy as it can be). It's also good for sales. (Who is going to pay for content they can't use?)

The problem has nothing to do with CP and everything to do with the fact ZOS relies to heavily on one shots.

Rungar · February 2019

weaving is the problem. Not cp.

the free skill shouldnt be doing 20%+ of your dmg and certainly shouldnt be the highest dmg skill you have.

start there and you can end there as well.

frostz417 · February 2019

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Where is the actual source quote for this and why wasn’t it included in the OP?

It’s in the class rep notes I believe, and i apologize for not linking it as I don’t know how to do the thing where you quote from different threads.

Wifeaggro13 · February 2019

haelene wrote: »

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

The system needs an overhaul. Power creep is not good. It's good that ZOS paused the growth of CP because it's becoming ridiculous.

I heard that in Neverwinter online, the devs are solving the problem of not needing healers by going back to classic trinity and removing any self heals from non-healing classes.

And I really think proc sets need to go. There are other ways to consider gears, like amplifying your skills instead of "providing" you with an automatic one out of nowhere.

Power creep is actually quite good from my perspective, when kept in check. It allows people to access older content who wouldn't otherwise be able to, thus keeping the queue healthy (or as healthy as it can be). It's also good for sales. (Who is going to pay for content they can't use?)

The problem has nothing to do with CP and everything to do with the fact ZOS relies to heavily on one shots.

power creep is a good element of MMO's the problem is ZOS had fundemntally bad ideas and design implementations they have only doubled down on them. Now they are baffled at why their game is broken on the back end. the game needs a tru Alternate advancement system do away with gear lvl redo the CP system from the ground up and implement a form of vertical progression that works fo the casual while giving the end game community something to chase.

haelene · February 2019

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

haelene wrote: »

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

The system needs an overhaul. Power creep is not good. It's good that ZOS paused the growth of CP because it's becoming ridiculous.

I heard that in Neverwinter online, the devs are solving the problem of not needing healers by going back to classic trinity and removing any self heals from non-healing classes.

And I really think proc sets need to go. There are other ways to consider gears, like amplifying your skills instead of "providing" you with an automatic one out of nowhere.

Power creep is actually quite good from my perspective, when kept in check. It allows people to access older content who wouldn't otherwise be able to, thus keeping the queue healthy (or as healthy as it can be). It's also good for sales. (Who is going to pay for content they can't use?)

The problem has nothing to do with CP and everything to do with the fact ZOS relies to heavily on one shots.

power creep is a good element of MMO's the problem is ZOS had fundemntally bad ideas and design implementations they have only doubled down on them. Now they are baffled at why their game is broken on the back end. the game needs a tru Alternate advancement system do away with gear lvl redo the CP system from the ground up and implement a form of vertical progression that works fo the casual while giving the end game community something to chase.

While I agree with you, I don't have any faith that zos can put together a system like this. I'd be all for a new, well designed progression system but with their current track record I don't think they have any idea how to balance the needs of their players. In fact, I think they barely manage to handle one playstyle at a time. Sometimes they get sooo close and then backpedal with needless changes that are, quite frankly, confounding.

In other words, I'd rather they leave things the way they are than make them worse. I know that doesn't fit the mmo formula, which is to change things in order to force a new grind and in that way, pad the game hours played per person. I know. But I don't have to like that aspect of these games.

MikaHR · February 2019

Skwor wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Would that be that bad?

then they can play a good guy and nerf dungeons and it would be win win for them And payerbase would be ever grateful.

Yes it would be bad. Why play ESO Dark Souls Online emulator when you can just play Dark Souls.

Again I say stop trying to change the game into something else. Most imo want ESO not Dark Souls.

If you want it just go play it already.

Why play ESO WoW emulator when you can play WoW....which does it immensly more better than ESO anyway.

Again stop trying to change Elder Scrolls into WoW. Most want Elder Scrolls not WoW.

If you want it just go and play it already.

*plenty od dead WoW clones along the line to prove that making yor game a WoW clone is pretty much end of your game.

Knootewoot · February 2019

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Gear and these ridiculous and ever-increasing in power proc sets are just as much of an issue.

Game needs a.) full item table rebalancing b.) CP rework.

One of these fixes alone is not enough. And the piecemeal touchups they’re doing on a few sets here and there are laughable in a game with now hundreds of gear configs.

Another year, another 4 times new sets gets added with more procs. They have to make them appealing else nobody will get them. So expect more damage and while doing light attacks with the upcoming batch of proc sets.

mairwen85 · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Would that be that bad?

then they can play a good guy and nerf dungeons and it would be win win for them And payerbase would be ever grateful.

Yes it would be bad. Why play ESO Dark Souls Online emulator when you can just play Dark Souls.

Again I say stop trying to change the game into something else. Most imo want ESO not Dark Souls.

If you want it just go play it already.

Why play ESO WoW emulator when you can play WoW....which does it immensly more better than ESO anyway.

Again stop trying to change Elder Scrolls into WoW. Most want Elder Scrolls not WoW.

If you want it just go and play it already.

*plenty od dead WoW clones along the line to prove that making yor game a WoW clone is pretty much end of your game.

ESO is not a WoW clone though, and nothing about CP or overland scaling is close to WoW -- I don't get your comment. The Whataboutism is misplaced and without function (I mean it's a logical fallacy anyway, but this isn't even a logical one

).

Does every post have to be a meaningless rebuttal, needle prod or exclamation of doom and disaster?

Also, the suggestions are not in the same vein as creating a WoW clone... how is taming CP via expansion and allowing for incremental difficulty in specific zones equivalent to any WoW mechanic? The issue here is not that the perpetual regrind and obsolescence of existing gear as it exists in the vertical progression of WoW is being demanded -- far from it, no one wants that. The statement (as mentioned before) is that the horizontal progression and flat cap on overland doesn't compliment the vertical concept of CP because of the implementation. Revisiting the horizontal concept (perhaps in a staggered or step-wise approach), and reducing the impact of vertical -- decreasing dungeon one-shot mechanics, or introducing a third difficulty tier: these are all suggestions on how to marry those concepts better. Still not seeing any WoW clone ethos in there...

Knootewoot wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Gear and these ridiculous and ever-increasing in power proc sets are just as much of an issue.

Game needs a.) full item table rebalancing b.) CP rework.

One of these fixes alone is not enough. And the piecemeal touchups they’re doing on a few sets here and there are laughable in a game with now hundreds of gear configs.

Another year, another 4 times new sets gets added with more procs. They have to make them appealing else nobody will get them. So expect more damage and while doing light attacks with the upcoming batch of proc sets.

As for proc sets -- some are overkill, but the Summerset batch were quite balanced; if you consider Siroria, for example, you get a stacking bonus, but you loose mobility; mobility = survivability; to get your full 600 you can't move for 20 seconds, you have to make sure you throw at least 1 single target skill per 10 seconds to refresh it. I'm still using julianos in dungeons, because I can move around and keep myself alive while still delivering consistent damage -- Siroria really is only good for trials or dungeons where there are no mechanics that require you to do something other than stand still. Spell Strategist, nice for single target, but BSW effects every target! There is always a trade off when you set up your gear -- just because something is BiS on a dummy parse, doesn't give it practical application for every scenario. I am constantly swapping sets, but my tried, tested fallback is my crafted set which can compliment any other setup for almost every scenario... That's how horizontal progression works, or rather, should work. New gear does not obsolete older gear (unless you really only understand the game as a copy-paste job).

Cookie-cutter builds will always exist. Content creators will always promote the 'best' sets. There will always be psuedo-elite players who follow the meta without question or understanding the actual 'why'. But the game doesn't have to advocate the same. Problem is, it looks right now as if it does. There are fixes and solutions, directions that would make it more equivocal across the player-base, and very few of them would include the total removal of CP.

Oakenaxe · February 2019

As a casual and relatively new player (main at 600+ CP), I can't say much about the subject. I'm not sure yet if I like or dislike the CP system, afterall it was there when I started. But there are two things that I'd like to see:

1. Being able to have 2 sets of spent CPs that I could switch whenever I want to.

2. Being able to individually change skill points/morphs.

As a casual player I'd love to be able to do both PvE and PvP contents with my main char without having to pay for it. I don't wanna have to make a different character for each purpose. This is something that really bums me out about ESO.

mairwen85 · February 2019

Oakenaxe wrote: »

As a casual and relatively new player (main at 600+ CP), I can't say much about the subject. I'm not sure yet if I like or dislike the CP system, afterall it was there when I started. But there are two things that I'd like to see:

1. Being able to have 2 sets of spent CPs that I could switch whenever I want to.

2. Being able to individually change skill points/morphs.

As a casual player I'd love to be able to do both PvE and PvP contents with my main char without having to pay for it. I don't wanna have to make a different character for each purpose. This is something that really bums me out about ESO.

1. Being able to have 2 sets of spent CPs that I could switch whenever I want to

I agree 100% with this. It would be nice to have a PvP CP profile, and PvE CP profile that are stored and switchable. It costs 3000 gold to do every time, and we don't all write them down

I've started using this build editor to keep my configuration.

2. Being able to individually change skill points/morphs.

You can do this at a shrine; you can change just morphs, or entire skills.

Oakenaxe · February 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

You can do this at a shrine; you can change just morphs, or entire skills.

Oh, I know about that, but the only option is to reset ALL skills or ALL morphs. Sometimes I just want to change Breath of Life for Honor the Dead, nothing more lol

Edit: thank you for the build editor, didn't know that one!

Wifeaggro13 · February 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Last set of gear made eveything before it obsolete and power creep has spiraled out of control by CP+gear.

it IS "WoW ethos", you not seeing it...well you couldnt see (and could not understand) Wildstar shutting down too sooooo.....

If you want to play WoW, play WoW and stop trying ot turn ESO into WoW.

I dont understand your comment . this game is nothing like wow and could never be. for one the base design is so far from wow it would be impossible to make it wow. if your talking about a progression system ? well all MMO's have that and so does ESO. I think your just throwing out comments to be inflamatory. ESO needs a redesign in certain aspects or at the very least expand upon its game systems because just throwing a medicore chapter with leveling content reskinned is not gonna sell as well anymore. they got away with it twice but even the churn base is not coming in droves for it.

kathandira · February 2019

frostz417 wrote: »

Who exactly is complaining about power creep in pve? End game pve’ers don’t seem to be complaining so it has to be the low cp casual pve’ers.

If you spend enough time on the Forums, you will hear quite often that there is a call for Overland to be more difficult. This can be tied back to how CP has made us too strong, which has trivialized the Non-Vet content. Pair that CP Strength with the Gear, and the Buffs, and we are killing machines.

20% Critical Damage
9% Critical Chance
15% Elemental Damage
15% Direct Damage
20% Damage Over Time
15% Poison, Disease, and Physical Damage
20% Light/Heavy Attack Damage