Maintenance for the week of May 18:
• NA megaservers for maintenance – May 18, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – May 18, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 13:00 UTC (9:00AM EDT)
• NA megaservers for maintenance – May 18, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – May 18, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 13:00 UTC (9:00AM EDT)
But at the end of the day, are the races fairly balanced? (PVE)
-
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Orc is not too good because they have the most dps,but because it also comes with the health bonus. Which seems pretty damn good in current pve stam setups.. I find the lack of sustain a non issue there myself. I could add a health glyph on other races to compensate and lose stam, if I want a higher health number, especially with sustain food. With Orc I don't have to, and lose nothing. There's no tradeoff. Just more stats that are also of use.
This is the most ridiculous thing when comparing Altmer and Orc. Not only does Orc substantially outparse the competition already (due to sustain being less import for stamina than magicka), they also have a far more useful third passive. Altmer are barely pulling ahead in DPS tests (not even pulling ahead in some tests) and they are the ones who get the useless third passive.
+1000 health and +300 health regen vs. +215 stamina regen and 5% damage mitigation when casting channeled abilitiesEdited by MLGProPlayer on February 21, 2019 5:57PM1 -
Kulvar✭✭✭✭The only way to know if the races are fairly balanced would be to make 1 poll per race with a yes/no answer.
If the % of yes is similar for every race, they're fairly balanced as it means the new racials bring similar satisfaction for every race.Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Kulvar , provided you can make people stop voting 'yes, balanced' for underdog races they don't play. ^^0 -
Kulvar✭✭✭✭@John_Falstaff There are ways to counter it, but not with this forum poll system sadly.Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact0
-
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They are still a lot more balanced by the end compared to the current live patch.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Colecovision wrote: »
The main drawback of using sustain food is reduced health. But that drawback disappears when a race gets a free 1k max health passive.
That would be fine if orcs weren't already parsing substantially ahead of the field, but they are.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 21, 2019 8:24PM1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Orc is not too good because they have the most dps,but because it also comes with the health bonus. Which seems pretty damn good in current pve stam setups.. I find the lack of sustain a non issue there myself. I could add a health glyph on other races to compensate and lose stam, if I want a higher health number, especially with sustain food. With Orc I don't have to, and lose nothing. There's no tradeoff. Just more stats that are also of use.
This is the most ridiculous thing when comparing Altmer and Orc. Not only does Orc substantially outparse the competition already (due to sustain being less import for stamina than magicka), they also have a far more useful third passive. Altmer are barely pulling ahead in DPS tests (not even pulling ahead in some tests) and they are the ones who get the useless third passive.
+1000 health and +300 health regen vs. +215 stamina regen and 5% damage mitigation when casting channeled abilities
Orc doesn't "substantially outparse the competition", though. They're virtually tied with Dunmer, maybe ~1-2% ahead of Khajiit, and maybe ~2-3% ahead of Redguard/Bosmer ... on a stamblade. On classes that get more benefit out of sustain, the gap will probably close a bit since, for instance on a stamsorc, going Redguard or Bosmer might enable a higher damage rotation (e.g., using Rapid Strikes or Crushing Weapon rather than Rending Slashes as a spammable).
For instance, I see in solo stamblade parses a max of around 56.5k on Redguard/Bosmer, 57.5k on Khajiit, and a hair over 58k on Orc/Dunmer.
In Liko/Hodor's fully buffed raid parses with consistent gear (Orc/Dunmer/Khajiit with gold food, Bosmer/Redguard with blue) the DPS ranged from ~78k for Redguard (Bosmer would be the same) to ~80k for Orc (Dunmer would be about the same). Khajiit were in the middle at ~79k.
I wager you're going to see similar results on magicka races if the same tests are performed. For instance if a magblade can sustain a raid-buffed parse with Berserker backbar and Gold food, Altmer and Dunmer are going to come out on top by 1 or 2%. But maybe a magsorc will see more benefit from the extra Breton sustain.
I do think that Altmer should probably get a max health bonus. Not sure what the appropriate value would be ... 1000 may not be necessary since in PvE magicka DPS usually run 5/1/1 and have plenty of health, but something would be nice.Edited by LiquidPony on February 21, 2019 8:37PM1 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »
The main drawback of using sustain food is reduced health. But that drawback disappears when a race gets a free 1k max health passive.
That would be fine if orcs weren't already parsing substantially ahead of the field, but they are.
I use one heavy and have the undaunted passive. So on my NB I get to 17k health on an orc with dubious and all stam armor glyphs. There's no sustain issues at that point and Dubious grossly over shodows the value of blue food on a bossmer. The bossmer needs a stam glyph to catch the orc if we go that route and there's no catching the orcs WD at that point.
I actually see the 250 weapon damage and 250 regen as the same. Elite players want the damage, but I'm not good enough to milk it like that. Between food and glyphs, I'm gonna shuffle my way to a stam regen number and a health number and then see what's left.
I wonder if people would think it were balanced if orc got 2,864 max stam instead of 2k stam and 1k health. Probably not. But that's how it works if you want some health on your build.0 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭If asking if the races are balanced and stating its ok if theyre not is balanced then they were always balanced. So yes theyre balanced.
But no, theyre not balanced.
Breton can tank, dd, heal.
Bosmer can dd, tank but not heal.
Stated goal was universal role application. Result - fail.
Unbelievably false, the difference between a Bosmer and a breton healer is so much smaller. The balance is so much better, but idiots fail to understand numbers. It's just 'omg everything isnt homogenized or I cant get magicka racials on my redguard, not good'
Edited by notimetocare on February 21, 2019 8:51PM0 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭Looking from the macro level, the races are balanced. But, we look at micro level and comparison the passives of individual races, their in-combat implications at various different situations, their set value strength and synergies with existing passives, there are cases when certain races are better than a similar other race in almost every single situation (Imperial vs Nord, Dunmer vs Khajiit, etc).
But The difference between say, Khajiit and Dunmer is what? 800 dps max? That isn't even big enough to warrant worrying over a score run / Leader Board Run.
It's not the DPS though. It's the opportunity cost. What I mean here, say that if Khajiit did better as tanks than Dunmer, it would have been fine. But higher resource total+Flame resists means Dunmer will be better tanks too. Same with healers, where spell damage means Dunmers win with more consistent heals.
Sustain passive of Khajiit is already accounted for by the fact that Khajiit primary resource is lowest of all races and less than half of Dunmer. Even comparing the utility passive, Flame resists is better than Sneak bonus outside of Thief roleplay.
There is just no compelling reason to be a Khajiit gameplay wise as they lack a niche they excel at. Same for Nord.
Exactly my issue. Dunmer and khajiit are essentially very similar. Both are raw DD races. Except Dunmer is a top-tier race in that aspect (2nd in average) while Khajiit is a mid-tier race (4th in average). Combat wise, why choose the 4th Khajiit when you can choose the 2nd Dunmer? This is compounded by the fact the exact next race, DD wise, Imperial has much higher resources, over twice the sustain, ultimate cost reduction etc. This means people want raw damage will go Dunmer and people want to be Jack of all trades will go Imperial.
Not everyone makes a meta choice, the changes are ideal for that because even comparing best to worst at the highest end of gameplay the difference was cut by more than half.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I suggest to go back and read the original racial rebalance goals... in most cases almost none of them have been fulfilled.
I guess it is too much to ask ZOS to simply don't make any changes unless all races will have a ok "✓" sign at every racial rebalance goal.
With those changes, what will happen is simply we will have "meta shift". What is even worse is that we will have even less vailable choices when it comes to races.
We have 10 races in eso. 3 or 4 of them will be vailable to do content. Nuff said...
I thought they would take this opportunity to essentially make racial choice irrelevant (as is the case in the single player TES games and most MMOs). It's the only way to fix this mess.
There have been a few other creative solutions, like allocating 3 races to each role and giving them all the same passives, which also works, but still pigeon holes certain races into certain roles. But as long as every race has unique buffs, there will be imbalance.
Of course, there was room for a TON of tweaking still with the current changes, but ZOS didn't really bother with that and just made sweeping changes from patch to patch, rather than just slightly adjusting (i.e. rather than reducing Khajiit crit chance by 1-2%, they just gave them a whole new passive instead).
Simply reducing Khajiit crit chance by 1-2% across the board is (obviously) a nerf across the board.
Changing 8% crit chance to 10% crit damage is not a nerf across the board.
You may not agree with what they did but the your proposed change does not have the same net effect as the change they actually implemented.
Khajiit DPS was reduced substantially. It was a nerf.
A tweak to an existing passive would have let them fine-tune the change.
Fine tuning is always objectively better than completely changing something and hoping it works out (in this case, it doesn't, as it was too big of a nerf, something fine tuning would have avoided).
This is, unsurprisingly, not true.
Khajiit DPS was reduced marginally in some cases by the change from 8% crit chance to 10% crit damage. In other cases, the new passive is break-even or even a buff.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I suggest to go back and read the original racial rebalance goals... in most cases almost none of them have been fulfilled.
I guess it is too much to ask ZOS to simply don't make any changes unless all races will have a ok "✓" sign at every racial rebalance goal.
With those changes, what will happen is simply we will have "meta shift". What is even worse is that we will have even less vailable choices when it comes to races.
We have 10 races in eso. 3 or 4 of them will be vailable to do content. Nuff said...
I thought they would take this opportunity to essentially make racial choice irrelevant (as is the case in the single player TES games and most MMOs). It's the only way to fix this mess.
There have been a few other creative solutions, like allocating 3 races to each role and giving them all the same passives, which also works, but still pigeon holes certain races into certain roles. But as long as every race has unique buffs, there will be imbalance.
Of course, there was room for a TON of tweaking still with the current changes, but ZOS didn't really bother with that and just made sweeping changes from patch to patch, rather than just slightly adjusting (i.e. rather than reducing Khajiit crit chance by 1-2%, they just gave them a whole new passive instead).
Simply reducing Khajiit crit chance by 1-2% across the board is (obviously) a nerf across the board.
Changing 8% crit chance to 10% crit damage is not a nerf across the board.
You may not agree with what they did but the your proposed change does not have the same net effect as the change they actually implemented.
Khajiit DPS was reduced substantially. It was a nerf.
A tweak to an existing passive would have let them fine-tune the change.
Fine tuning is always objectively better than completely changing something and hoping it works out (in this case, it doesn't, as it was too big of a nerf, something fine tuning would have avoided).
This is, unsurprisingly, not true.
Khajiit DPS was reduced marginally in some cases by the change from 8% crit chance to 10% crit damage. In other cases, the new passive is break-even or even a buff.
Khajiit dropped to #3 magicka and stamina DPS across the board, parsing behind Dunmer on every single class.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 21, 2019 9:21PM3 -
sneakymitchell✭✭✭✭Yup fine. going make nord mag dps even if it ain’t meta.NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Tank DK
PC-NA Ebonheart Pact Nord Stam Templar1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »I suggest to go back and read the original racial rebalance goals... in most cases almost none of them have been fulfilled.
I guess it is too much to ask ZOS to simply don't make any changes unless all races will have a ok "✓" sign at every racial rebalance goal.
With those changes, what will happen is simply we will have "meta shift". What is even worse is that we will have even less vailable choices when it comes to races.
We have 10 races in eso. 3 or 4 of them will be vailable to do content. Nuff said...
I thought they would take this opportunity to essentially make racial choice irrelevant (as is the case in the single player TES games and most MMOs). It's the only way to fix this mess.
There have been a few other creative solutions, like allocating 3 races to each role and giving them all the same passives, which also works, but still pigeon holes certain races into certain roles. But as long as every race has unique buffs, there will be imbalance.
Of course, there was room for a TON of tweaking still with the current changes, but ZOS didn't really bother with that and just made sweeping changes from patch to patch, rather than just slightly adjusting (i.e. rather than reducing Khajiit crit chance by 1-2%, they just gave them a whole new passive instead).
Simply reducing Khajiit crit chance by 1-2% across the board is (obviously) a nerf across the board.
Changing 8% crit chance to 10% crit damage is not a nerf across the board.
You may not agree with what they did but the your proposed change does not have the same net effect as the change they actually implemented.
Khajiit DPS was reduced substantially. It was a nerf.
A tweak to an existing passive would have let them fine-tune the change.
Fine tuning is always objectively better than completely changing something and hoping it works out (in this case, it doesn't, as it was too big of a nerf, something fine tuning would have avoided).
This is, unsurprisingly, not true.
Khajiit DPS was reduced marginally in some cases by the change from 8% crit chance to 10% crit damage. In other cases, the new passive is break-even or even a buff.
Khajiit dropped to #3 magicka and stamina DPS across the board, parsing behind Dunmer on every single class.
... because Dunmer had their max resources buffed by 50% as well.
Khajiit also have more health and more sustain on all builds. A Dunmer stam DPS is going to be sitting at ~15.5k self-buffed. A lot of people are going to want to run a health glyph if they're raiding on stam with a Dunmer.
And Khajiit were already behind Orc/Dunmer prior to the change in stamblade parses.
Regardless of where Khajiit are positioned in whatever tests you're talking about, the math is simple and you can log on to the PTS and work it out for yourself. For some builds, the change to +10% crit damage was a buff. This change was not a nerf for everyone, that's a simple fact of basic arithmetic.0 -
Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭Colecovision wrote: »
Also the dynamic between Altmer and Dunmer is gone. Breton is the clear winner in Mag DPS and Healing. This patch achieved the opposite of it's goal and diversity is worse with Lore and Racial Identity taking heavy hits as well.
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn2