Chances we see more adjustments to racial changes in 4.3.4?

FrancisCrawford · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I'm just hoping for some minor tweaks. Slight increase in Khajiit max stats and/or regen, slight reduction of Orc health, etc.

I'm pretty happy with the DPS-oriented race changes. Big improvement over what we've got on live for the most part.

The bosmers are in a pretty awful place, there is long threads complaining about the changes. I am hoping they at least make some changes bosmers particularly returning their stealth, but it does not seem like there is any advocates for those players.

Particularly lousy timing to nuke half the stealth characters in the game with Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood event(s) coming up.

Elwendryll · February 2019

I already got all the items I could potentially use depending on the final state of Khajiit. I'll just wait for patch day to transmute/gold out my items. I don't expect much changes on the last week, I hope they will spend it mostly bug fixing.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

No stealth = not a Bosmer. Removing stealth from Bosmer is about the worst, lore breaking thing they could do. I don't care if I can one-shot a veteran trial boss after doing a roll-dodge; without stealth a Bosmer isn't a Bosmer. That's just the way it is. I understand there are people who don't give a rat's patootie about stealth, and that's fine; roll in into something else like it was for the Khajiit. But to take away the lore-based stealth bonus to give Bosmer a completely lore-breaking and entirely-useless-in-PVE detection garbage passive is a bucket of rancid maggot infested manure.

So if you want to be a stealthy character you have one and only one choice, Khajiit. This is 'increasing diversity.'

Somehow.

LiquidPony wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I'm just hoping for some minor tweaks. Slight increase in Khajiit max stats and/or regen, slight reduction of Orc health, etc.

I'm pretty happy with the DPS-oriented race changes. Big improvement over what we've got on live for the most part.

The bosmers are in a pretty awful place, there is long threads complaining about the changes. I am hoping they at least make some changes bosmers particularly returning their stealth, but it does not seem like there is any advocates for those players.

But yeah, the PvP-oriented passive still needs some work.

I have an idea.
How about not giving Bosmer the only racial passive that only functions in PVP?

This has always been the case, though. The old stealth passives were not useful in PvE. Stealth isn't useful in PvE aside from very specific content that is irrelevant as far as class balance is concerned.

Eiron77 wrote: »

Agreed whole-heartedly that Bosmers and Altmers have been gutted.

If these changes go live, my playstyle has absolutely no reason to place any skill points into Hunter's Eye. And even though Bosmers parse well, why play a race that essentially has only 2 useful racial passives when I could just go redguard or orc if I cared about that sort of thing.

Way it stands, unless you want to be a laughingstock roly-poly weirdo, there's no reason to go Bosmer when other races can do stam better... or stealth better.

What hurts my brain the most is their descriptions keep insisting they want to focus on the hunter part of bosmer lore which is why they're pushing their anti-stealth agenda onto us. But truth is, by the game mechanics, Khajits with their better stealth will be the supreme hunters. So I see why their logic went the path it did, but lore-wise and gameplay wise it just doesn't suit Bosmers at all.

Have you tested a Bosmer PvE setup at all? There's no reason to choose Redguard over Bosmer on a stamblade or stamden or stamplar, really. The Redguard weapon skill cost reduction just doesn't give you much of anything on classes that use mostly class skills (particularly the spammable). As it stands Bosmer is totally viable as a PvE Stam DPS race.

Morgul667 · February 2019

Daus wrote: »

I'm expecting to be an Orc next update.

Same here

A Minor Orc update and call it a day

I see some efforts (from Gilliam and Rob ?) to change things little by little and listen to feedbacks... well more than what it used to be

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

No stealth = not a Bosmer. Removing stealth from Bosmer is about the worst, lore breaking thing they could do. I don't care if I can one-shot a veteran trial boss after doing a roll-dodge; without stealth a Bosmer isn't a Bosmer. That's just the way it is. I understand there are people who don't give a rat's patootie about stealth, and that's fine; roll in into something else like it was for the Khajiit. But to take away the lore-based stealth bonus to give Bosmer a completely lore-breaking and entirely-useless-in-PVE detection garbage passive is a bucket of rancid maggot infested manure.

So if you want to be a stealthy character you have one and only one choice, Khajiit. This is 'increasing diversity.'

Somehow.

LiquidPony wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I'm just hoping for some minor tweaks. Slight increase in Khajiit max stats and/or regen, slight reduction of Orc health, etc.

I'm pretty happy with the DPS-oriented race changes. Big improvement over what we've got on live for the most part.

The bosmers are in a pretty awful place, there is long threads complaining about the changes. I am hoping they at least make some changes bosmers particularly returning their stealth, but it does not seem like there is any advocates for those players.

But yeah, the PvP-oriented passive still needs some work.

I have an idea.
How about not giving Bosmer the only racial passive that only functions in PVP?

This has always been the case, though. The old stealth passives were not useful in PvE. Stealth isn't useful in PvE aside from very specific content that is irrelevant as far as class balance is concerned.

Eiron77 wrote: »

Agreed whole-heartedly that Bosmers and Altmers have been gutted.

If these changes go live, my playstyle has absolutely no reason to place any skill points into Hunter's Eye. And even though Bosmers parse well, why play a race that essentially has only 2 useful racial passives when I could just go redguard or orc if I cared about that sort of thing.

Way it stands, unless you want to be a laughingstock roly-poly weirdo, there's no reason to go Bosmer when other races can do stam better... or stealth better.

What hurts my brain the most is their descriptions keep insisting they want to focus on the hunter part of bosmer lore which is why they're pushing their anti-stealth agenda onto us. But truth is, by the game mechanics, Khajits with their better stealth will be the supreme hunters. So I see why their logic went the path it did, but lore-wise and gameplay wise it just doesn't suit Bosmers at all.

Have you tested a Bosmer PvE setup at all? There's no reason to choose Redguard over Bosmer on a stamblade or stamden or stamplar, really. The Redguard weapon skill cost reduction just doesn't give you much of anything on classes that use mostly class skills (particularly the spammable). As it stands Bosmer is totally viable as a PvE Stam DPS race.

Well, yes you are right that redguard and bosmer are close in regen now, with first slightly better in non-stop rotating, while second slightly better in fights with small periods of idling when you change target, do mechanics etc.. but they both are notably behind dunmer and orc.
And even if we assume that bosmer is good for PVP, it's still worse then orc. Things were ok for bosmer at 4.3.0. But after that bosmer was nerfed and others buffed. At 4.3.3 Zos somewhat compensated by adding 2 seconds of duration, but this compensation won't help at PVE at all.
So bosmer requires small tweak - 1. remove stealth detect, return back stealth radius. 2. remove penetration after roll-dodge, replace it with something more fitting like increased defense or weapon damage or resource restore, temporary penetration is probably worst possible bonus, because you always build to hit the penetration cap and any value further then cao is wasted overpenetration.

Ruckly · February 2019

They should hack off the weapon damage for orc and put in something more universal. I can play a 1k health 2k stamina magicka orc no problem in pvp but the 258 weapon dmg is doing nothing for me. Put in something for short range direct attacks so my lava whip counts for something. 258 weapon dmg means a bunch of run fast bowmancers. Originally it was 4% extra damage for melee attacks. It should be +something for all attacks 5-7m range. Do that and the orc stays a run fast heavy melee(stamina or magicka) engagement toon rather than a kiting bowmancer.

Vapirko · February 2019

IronWooshu wrote: »

I am trusting they have made these changes with the future in mind with updates. Things that we dont know about in the next combat updates which when they drop the information we go "It all makes sense now"

We got CP changes and combat updates coming up.

I’m also sure of this. It would probably be wise to hang onto those race changes for a while, at least until we know what’s coming with Elsweyr, as that will hold the biggest changes of the year most likely. For example I think snare rework is coming and I think that Redguard passive will become more useful. And we already know CP changes are coming.

Bigevilpeter · February 2019

Nothing major but probably some light tweeks here and there

Asardes · February 2019

The only one that needs adjustment is High Elves. Lower resource return makes no sense. IMO they should simply change the "follow their destiny" (class) passive to a % reduction to class skills costs, just as Redguard got a % reduction to weapon skill costs based on the fact they train with weapons from a young age.

LiquidPony · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

No stealth = not a Bosmer. Removing stealth from Bosmer is about the worst, lore breaking thing they could do. I don't care if I can one-shot a veteran trial boss after doing a roll-dodge; without stealth a Bosmer isn't a Bosmer. That's just the way it is. I understand there are people who don't give a rat's patootie about stealth, and that's fine; roll in into something else like it was for the Khajiit. But to take away the lore-based stealth bonus to give Bosmer a completely lore-breaking and entirely-useless-in-PVE detection garbage passive is a bucket of rancid maggot infested manure.

So if you want to be a stealthy character you have one and only one choice, Khajiit. This is 'increasing diversity.'

Somehow.

LiquidPony wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I'm just hoping for some minor tweaks. Slight increase in Khajiit max stats and/or regen, slight reduction of Orc health, etc.

I'm pretty happy with the DPS-oriented race changes. Big improvement over what we've got on live for the most part.

The bosmers are in a pretty awful place, there is long threads complaining about the changes. I am hoping they at least make some changes bosmers particularly returning their stealth, but it does not seem like there is any advocates for those players.

But yeah, the PvP-oriented passive still needs some work.

I have an idea.
How about not giving Bosmer the only racial passive that only functions in PVP?

This has always been the case, though. The old stealth passives were not useful in PvE. Stealth isn't useful in PvE aside from very specific content that is irrelevant as far as class balance is concerned.

Eiron77 wrote: »

Agreed whole-heartedly that Bosmers and Altmers have been gutted.

If these changes go live, my playstyle has absolutely no reason to place any skill points into Hunter's Eye. And even though Bosmers parse well, why play a race that essentially has only 2 useful racial passives when I could just go redguard or orc if I cared about that sort of thing.

Way it stands, unless you want to be a laughingstock roly-poly weirdo, there's no reason to go Bosmer when other races can do stam better... or stealth better.

What hurts my brain the most is their descriptions keep insisting they want to focus on the hunter part of bosmer lore which is why they're pushing their anti-stealth agenda onto us. But truth is, by the game mechanics, Khajits with their better stealth will be the supreme hunters. So I see why their logic went the path it did, but lore-wise and gameplay wise it just doesn't suit Bosmers at all.

Have you tested a Bosmer PvE setup at all? There's no reason to choose Redguard over Bosmer on a stamblade or stamden or stamplar, really. The Redguard weapon skill cost reduction just doesn't give you much of anything on classes that use mostly class skills (particularly the spammable). As it stands Bosmer is totally viable as a PvE Stam DPS race.

Well, yes you are right that redguard and bosmer are close in regen now, with first slightly better in non-stop rotating, while second slightly better in fights with small periods of idling when you change target, do mechanics etc.. but they both are notably behind dunmer and orc.
And even if we assume that bosmer is good for PVP, it's still worse then orc. Things were ok for bosmer at 4.3.0. But after that bosmer was nerfed and others buffed. At 4.3.3 Zos somewhat compensated by adding 2 seconds of duration, but this compensation won't help at PVE at all.
So bosmer requires small tweak - 1. remove stealth detect, return back stealth radius. 2. remove penetration after roll-dodge, replace it with something more fitting like increased defense or weapon damage or resource restore, temporary penetration is probably worst possible bonus, because you always build to hit the penetration cap and any value further then cao is wasted overpenetration.

Bosmer doesn't need any PvE damage buffs and IMO there's no chance they're going to get them. They are a pure sustain race.

And the sustain difference between Bosmer and Redguard in PvE doesn't have anything to do with idle time. Bosmer is just better for some builds. On a stamblade for instance the +258 stam regen is ~485 after buffs, so 242.5 Stam per second in combat, which is more than you get out of Adrenaline Rush and 8% cost reduction of Endless Hail/Poison Injection/Rending Slashes.

Now if you're on a stamsorc using Rapid Strikes or Shrouded Daggers or Wrecking Blow as a spammable, Redguard is better.

Their third passive basically has to be a flavor/PvP/off-resource passive because +2000 Stam and +258 Stam Regen is very strong as is. Same reason Altmer has an off-resource third passive. If you just give Bosmer a weapon damage or flat pen boost or additional Stam return, they're just better than Redguard 100% of the time.

Kulvar · February 2019

Asardes wrote: »

The only one that needs adjustment is High Elves. Lower resource return makes no sense. IMO they should simply change the "follow their destiny" (class) passive to a % reduction to class skills costs, just as Redguard got a % reduction to weapon skill costs based on the fact they train with weapons from a young age.

Yeah, they're only top magDD on 80% of the classes, makes it 100% with a good 1% margin with #2. It's the only issue with the PTS racial balance.

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

The old stealth passives were not useful in PvE. Stealth isn't useful in PvE aside from very specific content that is irrelevant as far as class balance is concerned.

I'm wondering what game you are playing. I can definitely tell when I'm on with a Bosmer or Khajiit as opposed to a Breton or Dunmer when I am sneaking, and I can tell when I'm on my maxed stealth Bosmer or my not maxed Khajiit or other Bosmers. I'm almost always in PVE. My maxed Bosmer can ghost through a public dungeon and fight only the bosses, maybe one or two groups of mooks where there's a narrow choke-point (or if I get careless), whereas my lower level alts have to slog their way through every group of mooks.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

The old stealth passives were not useful in PvE. Stealth isn't useful in PvE aside from very specific content that is irrelevant as far as class balance is concerned.

I'm wondering what game you are playing. I can definitely tell when I'm on with a Bosmer or Khajiit as opposed to a Breton or Dunmer when I am sneaking, and I can tell when I'm on my maxed stealth Bosmer or my not maxed Khajiit or other Bosmers. I'm almost always in PVE. My maxed Bosmer can ghost through a public dungeon and fight only the bosses, maybe one or two groups of mooks where there's a narrow choke-point (or if I get careless), whereas my lower level alts have to slog their way through every group of mooks.

I'm playing the game where you can run full-speed through Public Dungeons because the mobs are cupcakes who aren't worth worrying about and die to a couple of Steel Tornados if they don't rubber-band back to their spawn point without bothering you at all.

I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I used sneak in PvE. Probably shortly after Thieves Guild dropped.

What I should say is that sneak is irrelevant in terms of PvE combat balance whereas it is meaningful in PvP combat.

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

The old stealth passives were not useful in PvE. Stealth isn't useful in PvE aside from very specific content that is irrelevant as far as class balance is concerned.

I'm wondering what game you are playing. I can definitely tell when I'm on with a Bosmer or Khajiit as opposed to a Breton or Dunmer when I am sneaking, and I can tell when I'm on my maxed stealth Bosmer or my not maxed Khajiit or other Bosmers. I'm almost always in PVE. My maxed Bosmer can ghost through a public dungeon and fight only the bosses, maybe one or two groups of mooks where there's a narrow choke-point (or if I get careless), whereas my lower level alts have to slog their way through every group of mooks.

I'm playing the game where you can run full-speed through Public Dungeons because the mobs are cupcakes who aren't worth worrying about and die to a couple of Steel Tornados if they don't rubber-band back to their spawn point without bothering you at all.

I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I used sneak in PvE. Probably shortly after Thieves Guild dropped.

What I should say is that sneak is irrelevant in terms of PvE combat balance whereas it is meaningful in PvP combat.

There are two entire PvE DLCs dedicated to stealth gameplay.

Seraphayel · February 2019

Maybe some number tunings (3 -> 4% or stuff like that) but I doubt we will get any completely new or restructured racials. Remember, 4.3.4 is the release build for this patch.

zaria · February 2019

Mudcrabber wrote: »

We'll know tomorrow.

I don't think Khajiit will be back on top because they're the best sneaky hybrids now. I can't see getting 6% crit chance and 6% crit damage. Maybe 6% chance with 0% damage.

Just like Argonians are OP swimmers and drinkers so they have to be rock-bottom in all parses.

Khajiit probably get an buff. not an reversal.
Assume Khajitt would becomes OP with the new shadow meta was reason for change.
And would rater have more sustain and resources than more crit damage.

They probably continue to mess around with Bosmer.

They can surprise however like with imperials.

Stigant · February 2019

Daus wrote: »

I'm expecting to be an Orc next update.

I m expecting to stay Orc on my NB, only buffed a bit more.
The question is, what am I gonna do with that bloody free race change 🤔

John_Falstaff · February 2019

I have a faint hope that they just decided to experiment for a week and will revert the khajiit crit chance back. For a moment during this PTS cycle I allowed myself to be lulled into thinking that ZOS combat team actually started to do that balancing thing, but if the change goes live, I don't know what to think. We apparently didn't even deserve a developer comment for that ham-fisted change, sheesh.

Seraphayel · February 2019

Maybe some number tunings (3 -> 4% or stuff like that) but I doubt we will get any completely new or restructured racials. Remember, 4.3.4 is the release build for this patch.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I have a faint hope that they just decided to experiment for a week and will revert the khajiit crit chance back. For a moment during this PTS cycle I allowed myself to be lulled into thinking that ZOS combat team actually started to do that balancing thing, but if the change goes live, I don't know what to think. We apparently didn't even deserve a developer comment for that ham-fisted change, sheesh.

Come on, Khajiit isn't as bad after this change as the "sky is falling" attitude might suggest. They're still doing pretty good in all regards.

If they revert it back to crit chance they have to reduce it maybe to just 5% because 8% would put them ahead and above all other races which might be nice for Khajiit but a problem for all the others.

It's a constant back and forth but I think almost every race is fine now (maybe except Argonians/Nords in terms of numbers and Bosmer in termins of lore).

John_Falstaff · February 2019

@Seraphayel , what does it mean, pretty good? They're worse in every regard than their friendly hybrid dunmer, their racial is devalued with raid buffs (whereas other races' passives benefit from them), it locks khajiits into current high crit meta... I don't know how could one make such a short-sighted change. And khajiits weren't overperforming (see parses from @susmitds ), so giving them 5% crit chance will still put them far behind all other (at least damage oriented) races, it would still be a nerf across the board.

joaaocaampos · February 2019

No.

X.X.3 (Major changes)
X.X.4 (Fixing bugs)
X.X.5 (Live Patch - Major changes)

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

joaaocaampos wrote: »

No.

X.X.3 (Major changes)
X.X.4 (Fixing bugs)
X.X.5 (Live Patch - Major changes)

I love the surprise major changes on live patch day. It wouldn't be an ESO update without them.

Elsonso · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

No.

X.X.3 (Major changes)
X.X.4 (Fixing bugs)
X.X.5 (Live Patch - Major changes)

I love the surprise major changes on live patch day. It wouldn't be an ESO update without them.

It is sort of interesting how they do that. It emphasizes the point that PTS is for them to get feedback on certain things, not the entire update.

zaria · February 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Maybe some number tunings (3 -> 4% or stuff like that) but I doubt we will get any completely new or restructured racials. Remember, 4.3.4 is the release build for this patch.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I have a faint hope that they just decided to experiment for a week and will revert the khajiit crit chance back. For a moment during this PTS cycle I allowed myself to be lulled into thinking that ZOS combat team actually started to do that balancing thing, but if the change goes live, I don't know what to think. We apparently didn't even deserve a developer comment for that ham-fisted change, sheesh.

Come on, Khajiit isn't as bad after this change as the "sky is falling" attitude might suggest. They're still doing pretty good in all regards.

If they revert it back to crit chance they have to reduce it maybe to just 5% because 8% would put them ahead and above all other races which might be nice for Khajiit but a problem for all the others.

It's a constant back and forth but I think almost every race is fine now (maybe except Argonians/Nords in terms of numbers and Bosmer in termins of lore).

Agree, Khajiit just need some buff and they are fine. Prefer sustain / resources over more critt damage myself.
However this is easy to fix.

Bosmer, more usable passives. Sneak detection+sneak 2m?
Altmer, probably has to rename passive, after making it useful.

Argonians/Nords are harder because of PvP balance

Kolzki · February 2019

I would be surprised if there isn’t a slight nerf to the shadow, which would have an affect on the khajiit thing.

Maybe some tweaks to some racial passives. My guess is a look at nord resistances and further Bosmer tweaks. There seems to be a bit of an identity crises between magicka high elves and dark elves. Will they change though? We will see.

itsfatbass · February 2019

They probably wont do ANY changes for this last pts cycle and then for the live update next week, there will be some ninja changes they throw in without any testing done for them at ALL.

grannas211 · February 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

No.

X.X.3 (Major changes)
X.X.4 (Fixing bugs)
X.X.5 (Live Patch - Major changes)

I love the surprise major changes on live patch day. It wouldn't be an ESO update without them.

It is sort of interesting how they do that. It emphasizes the point that PTS is for them to get feedback on certain things, then do whatever the hell they want.

FTFY

Colecovision · February 2019

Don't forget they can keep on going once it hits live. The DW enchantment dot proc awesomeness debacle, taught us that nothing is safe even after it has had a first nerf live. There's nothing in racials that is outright broken the way that was, but I can't imagine burning through the free race change tokens right when this launches.

majulook · February 2019

PTS maintenance is taking far to long, for changes to be minimal.

susmitds · February 2019

majulook wrote: »

PTS maintenance is taking far to long, for changes to be minimal.

Just a few hours. It started a lot late today.