Are Argonians contend with their passives?

Browiseth · February 2019

Not in the slightest.

I have no idea what zos are thinking to be honest.

Seraphayel · February 2019

I think ZOS could build up a bit on the +6% healing passive. Maybe turn it into 129 Spell Damage and 5% more healing so that it benefits Magicka DPS as well, at least a bit.

Or increase their base Magicka and Health by another 500 each. Besides that... I think they're fine.

rabidmyers · February 2019

no, but its still the best master race so i wont change

phantasmalD · February 2019

Epilog wrote: »

(...)and something more versatile in place of the +6% healing (wich is kind of agains their new rules).(...)

Yeah, that's my main gripe as well. It's a boring, limited and not even particularly strong passive, was really hoping they would come up with something new. Argos are the only race that didn't get anything new to theorycraft, just pure nerfs (even if some of those nerfs were deserved).

But maybe something like "increase damage with DoTs and increased healing with HoTs".

Yeah, that could be something, "over time skills are X% stronger". I mean I'm not sure if it's particularly lore friendly but it'd gives argos a specific flavour and is useful for more than just one role.
Or "your buffs are 3% stronger/longer"

Kulvar · February 2019

phantasmalD wrote: »

Yeah, that could be something, "over time skills are X% stronger". I mean I'm not sure if it's particularly lore friendly but it'd gives argos a specific flavour and is useful for more than just one role.
Or "your buffs are 3% stronger/longer"

According to the new "rules", it would be something like
• You get +129 Spell and Weapon Damage for the calculation of your over time effects
• +3 seconds to minor buffs you apply

Morgul667 · February 2019

+6% healing works for both healers and tanks

Im honestly fine with my argonian

Got an imperial and an argonian and will not change any of them,

I dont feel it will kill my build so ill play it as often as i used to do

Kulvar · February 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

+6% healing works for both healers and tanks

Im honestly fine with my argonian

Got an imperial and an argonian and will not change any of them,

I dont feel it will kill my build so ill play it as often as i used to do

It works, it's fine. Not having any passives works too, so I guess it's fine to have underperforming passives and be stomped by other races in any role.

HankTwo · February 2019

I'm not sure how I feel about these changes. Imo its true that argonian is/was a bit overpowered in the current version of the game, but with the upcoming race changes the field looks pretty different, since other races got strong new passives. 4.3.0 argonian was definitely overnerfed. 4.3.2 argonian looks better, but I don't think its enough.

Judging by their racials they should be balanced to be a top choice for PvP mag support builds, but I'm not sure if they will be. In PvE they seem lacking in their supposed healer role as well. Maybe an increase to their max magicka and/or a slight boost to the healing done would make them more viable for that (2000 mag and 6% healing done or 1500 mag and 8% healing done)?

Chrlynsch · February 2019

Change max health/max magic to.
When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 600 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

This starts Argonian at a disadvantage but as a fight goes on they become more powerful. This makes argonians more dynamic. And allows them more diversity and a way to catch up in damage.

HatchetHaro · February 2019

Ashanne wrote: »

at least they didnt recieve the short end of the stick like dark elfs did. As stated by a dev comment argonians were overperforming compaired to other races, in some cases at least twice as effective as others. The way I see it they brought lizards back in line with the other races. But since theyre not blatantly obvious stronger than some races anymore people find a reason to QQ.

Lizard is fine. Most of the people playing them currently only switched to them because of the obviously overperforming reasons. imo they shouldve expected a bigger nerf.
in some cases, i even think argonians got a thicc buff. the difference in max mana between an argonian and highelf/breton currently on live, depending on build, can be over 3k worth of value but now its a mere 1k (1k argonian - 2k highelf/breton).

This is just my oppinion, and from a PVP perspective

The difference in Max Magicka is not the only thing separating the races in terms of damage. You have forgotten about the sizable amount of Spell Damage on Altmer and the insane sustain on Bretons which they could easily swap for an additional 1.5k Health + Magicka through switching to Blue bi-stat food while still having better sustain than Altmer, as well as the Max Magicka % scaling, which widens the gap even further.

Argonians are not fine. They are shoehorned into the Healing role and even then there are much, much better options, without any flexibility at all.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Change max health/max magic to.
When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 600 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

This starts Argonian at a disadvantage but as a fight goes on they become more powerful. This makes argonians more dynamic. And allows them more diversity and a way to catch up in damage.

I honestly really, really like this idea, but this also means that they would be slightly too OP in long trials such as vCR and vAS in terms of DPS.

Assuming that you consume a potion the moment you enter combat, it would be stacked up to 3000 max Stam, Mag, and Health after 3 minutes.

Also assuming that 1k Magicka is equivalent to 100 Spell Damage (which is close enough), their additional Magicka would closely match Altmer Spell Damage in just 2 minutes and 15 seconds, and also assuming that they still have their original 1000 max Magicka, they would almost perfectly match Altmer after 3 minutes of combat, and this is not counting the scaling on % max Magicka bonuses.

The extra Health would also make them extremely survivable; since vCR and vAS fights actually start off easy and get harder with time, they don't really lose any effectiveness by running with much less Health and stacking it up during the fight. This would just make them super amazing at Tanking, which I think is good enough already.

Gotta say, though, I love the idea. Definitely OP, though, so could use some scaling down.

Silver_Strider · February 2019

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Change max health/max magic to.
When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 600 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

This starts Argonian at a disadvantage but as a fight goes on they become more powerful. This makes argonians more dynamic. And allows them more diversity and a way to catch up in damage.

So 3k Max Health/Magic/Stamina within a 4 minute window. Seems more powerful than the current potion passive, especially with the whole "stuck in combat" glitch that can be abused with such a passive.

Steroids are not the answer.

phantasmalD · February 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

+6% healing works for both healers and tanks

And +258 damage works for healers, tanks and DDs.
The +258 spell damage produces superior healing numbers, especially on low damage builds. Like tanks and healers.

Anyron · February 2019

Its always same with argonian racial skills. I am too tired to try to change something. From now i just switch to my old argonian useless race thing.

Yes. Resourceful, if used correctly, is strong. If you use all 3 stat recovery bonuses. If.

With all other races they got so creative, they made new, funny racials. But for argonians? Why they should bother to do anything? Just nerf them and lets get over it.

So now we are here with useless resourceful and last % stat increased -healing ( i thought they wanna get rid of it)

Nerfing argonians maybe wasn't bad. What was bad was reworking others and let argonians with their old sh*ts.

Thank you zos, for your creativity.

Chrlynsch · February 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Change max health/max magic to.
When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 600 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

This starts Argonian at a disadvantage but as a fight goes on they become more powerful. This makes argonians more dynamic. And allows them more diversity and a way to catch up in damage.

So 3k Max Health/Magic/Stamina within a 4 minute window. Seems more powerful than the current potion passive, especially with the whole "stuck in combat" glitch that can be abused with such a passive.

Steroids are not the answer.

Adjust the values until they are not op. But I think the current route of adding the same stats to all the classes is boring and not creative.

When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 400 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

Now a maximum of 2000

Or ramp up the time it would take to get to 3k

Silver_Strider · February 2019

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Change max health/max magic to.
When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 600 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

This starts Argonian at a disadvantage but as a fight goes on they become more powerful. This makes argonians more dynamic. And allows them more diversity and a way to catch up in damage.

So 3k Max Health/Magic/Stamina within a 4 minute window. Seems more powerful than the current potion passive, especially with the whole "stuck in combat" glitch that can be abused with such a passive.

Steroids are not the answer.

Adjust the values until they are not op. But I think the current route of adding the same stats to all the classes is boring and not creative.

When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 400 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

Now a maximum of 2000

Or ramp up the time it would take to get to 3k

As much as I like the concept, I just don't see it being great in terms of balance. Imagine fighting an Argonian Tank in PvP that wears Fury; just seems like more "Argonian is OP" threads and the last thing we need is more PvP complaints about Argonian.

At this point, I'd go for broke and ask for a simple Magic Increase from 1k to 1500. It's not exciting but it at least gives us some more damage, isn't OP, makes our magic based heals stronger and does close the gap between ourselves and other magic races a little more. I was so optimistic about this patch finally opening up Argonians to being something more than a Tank/Healer race but I ended up disappointed as I'm being even more shoehorned into a Healer only race; I'd gladly trade away the 6% healing done passive for literally anything else at this point, just to get some level of flexibility that is very clearly lacking right now on Argonian.

Ozby · February 2019

nope

Seraphayel · February 2019

Well I hope for some slight buffs (like more Magicka and Health) or an addition to the +6% healing but there musn't be some sweeping changes imho.

Ozby · February 2019

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm not sure how I feel about these changes. Imo its true that argonian is/was a bit overpowered in the current version of the game, but with the upcoming race changes the field looks pretty different, since other races got strong new passives. 4.3.0 argonian was definitely overnerfed. 4.3.2 argonian looks better, but I don't think its enough.

Judging by their racials they should be balanced to be a top choice for PvP mag support builds, but I'm not sure if they will be. In PvE they seem lacking in their supposed healer role as well. Maybe an increase to their max magicka and/or a slight boost to the healing done would make them more viable for that (2000 mag and 6% healing done or 1500 mag and 8% healing done)?

I agree, as long as this game does not have pvp and pve as separate entities there will never be balance sadly.

Kulvar · February 2019

Ozby wrote: »

I agree, as long as this game does not have pvp and pve as separate entities there will never be balance sadly.

Balance in both PvP and PvE without split is possible.
As long as what matter in both PvE and PvP is widely available.
It's when something is strong in one of them but exclusive to a class/race that balance fails.
Either this thing is reworked to stop being such an advantage or it's alternative ways for everyone to get it are made available.

TheForseti · February 2019

I main an Argonian DK tank, I am perfectly happy with the Argonian rebalance. I mostly do end-game trials content. Sure, Argonians are no longer BiS for tank or healer, but they still make extremely good tanks and healers. They're also extremely good PvP toons all around. Just don't insist on using Argonian for PvE dps, the only role at which they do not excel, and you won't be salty.

cheifsoap · February 2019

I said this when all of the nerfs came and still believe it. ZOS needed to raise the floor, not bring the roof down. Argonians should have been left alone so they could at least tank while every race got a buff. Now I agree with the rest, Argonians are worthless now. People who say they barely not nerfed are (1) Not looking at the complete nerf list, e.g. hps nerf, healing nerf, potion nerf and (2) comparing them to other races that got buffed (on top of the nerfs). Its very short sighted

Bigevilpeter · February 2019

Argonians are still the best non DK tanks, im content with my Warden argonian tank, the loss if 5% healing recieved hurts a bit but they are overall the same

Silver_Strider · February 2019

TheForseti wrote: »

I main an Argonian DK tank, I am perfectly happy with the Argonian rebalance. I mostly do end-game trials content. Sure, Argonians are no longer BiS for tank or healer, but they still make extremely good tanks and healers. They're also extremely good PvP toons all around. Just don't insist on using Argonian for PvE dps, the only role at which they do not excel, and you won't be salty.

Khajiit weren't designed to be Magic DPS either and yet here we are. The point of the patch was to have races open up a bit to offer something for different roles and while all other races got some more options opened up to them than before (even if it wasn't what some people wanted), Argonian just got downgraded from their Live Performance with nothing new being opened at all. Khajiit get to be Magic DPS/Healers, Dunmer gets to be Stamina DPS, Nords got a buff their Tank stats (which isn't new but better than their Live Performance so at least it's a buff), and so on. Sure, some changes aren't welcomed, like Spell Recharge but they have some practical implications that can't be completely ignored; Spell Recharge give Altmer off resource sustain, so things like Stamina Sustain for PvP are more available to them than before. Redguard gets a cost reduction to Weapon Abilities, including Destro and Resto Staff, which isn't something they had before and opens the race to be a little bit more experimental; I'm not saying to go make a Magic Redguard and expect the same level of success as an Altmer but it's at least a small comfort to know you aren't completely gimped for doing it, something that can't be said of Redguard on Live in terms of Magic.

Argonians didn't get this treatment. If anything, it lost a lot of options due in part to the nerfs and partly because of the buffs other races received. Nords and Imperials got their Tank prowess improved to a point of completely eclipsing Argonian since they offer group utility now, while Argonian lost its only real tank utility with the removal of Healing received. In terms of Healing, Breton has more sustain and Magic, meaning it can provide more buffs for longer periods of time to the group while being able to heal just as well as Argonian. DPS wasn't even that open to us before these changes, outside of PvP, but with our sustain nerfed, that option is even further away now.

You say you Tank end game content, right? How long before your group asks you to change to Nord or Imperial to better support the team? Will you be fine with the changes then?

Jeezye · February 2019

Argonian work especially well on classes that struggle to stack recoveries, mainly dks, Templars and to some extend stamsorcs. However the potion passive doesn’t really change gameplay since good players consume potions on cooldown anyways. Considering them to be a supportive utility race, something like increased outgoing buff duration (maybe 2 seconds) would be cool. Thinking of combat prayer, warhorn, SPC and similar synergies

HatchetHaro · February 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

TheForseti wrote: »

I main an Argonian DK tank, I am perfectly happy with the Argonian rebalance. I mostly do end-game trials content. Sure, Argonians are no longer BiS for tank or healer, but they still make extremely good tanks and healers. They're also extremely good PvP toons all around. Just don't insist on using Argonian for PvE dps, the only role at which they do not excel, and you won't be salty.

Khajiit weren't designed to be Magic DPS either and yet here we are. The point of the patch was to have races open up a bit to offer something for different roles and while all other races got some more options opened up to them than before (even if it wasn't what some people wanted), Argonian just got downgraded from their Live Performance with nothing new being opened at all. Khajiit get to be Magic DPS/Healers, Dunmer gets to be Stamina DPS, Nords got a buff their Tank stats (which isn't new but better than their Live Performance so at least it's a buff), and so on. Sure, some changes aren't welcomed, like Spell Recharge but they have some practical implications that can't be completely ignored; Spell Recharge give Altmer off resource sustain, so things like Stamina Sustain for PvP are more available to them than before. Redguard gets a cost reduction to Weapon Abilities, including Destro and Resto Staff, which isn't something they had before and opens the race to be a little bit more experimental; I'm not saying to go make a Magic Redguard and expect the same level of success as an Altmer but it's at least a small comfort to know you aren't completely gimped for doing it, something that can't be said of Redguard on Live in terms of Magic.

Argonians didn't get this treatment. If anything, it lost a lot of options due in part to the nerfs and partly because of the buffs other races received. Nords and Imperials got their Tank prowess improved to a point of completely eclipsing Argonian since they offer group utility now, while Argonian lost its only real tank utility with the removal of Healing received. In terms of Healing, Breton has more sustain and Magic, meaning it can provide more buffs for longer periods of time to the group while being able to heal just as well as Argonian. DPS wasn't even that open to us before these changes, outside of PvP, but with our sustain nerfed, that option is even further away now.

You say you Tank end game content, right? How long before your group asks you to change to Nord or Imperial to better support the team? Will you be fine with the changes then?

Actually, Forseti used to be a tank for my vCR group, and I currently tank for his vCR group. We also got our Immortal Redeemer titles together, with him on MT and me on DPS. I am not keen on asking anyone to racechange or racechanging myself, and I believe he isn't as well. Overall, he's an awesome person and awesome tank.

His perspective is only that of a tank, so while I disagree with him in terms of DPS, I fully understand his viewpoint.

Stibbons · February 2019

Argonian are like dinosaurs if this hits live servers. Extinct.