Are Argonians contend with their passives?

Epilog

Just wondering. I don't see a lot of people talking about it.

For me it seems Argonians just got slightly nerfed (that is ok. their passives were kind of overloaded) but ZOS did not open them up for any other role (wich was one of their goals in changing racial passives besides the balancing).

So, what do you think? Should they change something?

I kind of hoped for something stamina related, maybe tri-stats, and something more versatile in place of the +6% healing (wich is kind of agains their new rules). Spell/Weapon damage would be kind of boring. But maybe something like "increase damage with DoTs and increased healing with HoTs". They could also nerf the potion passive again slightly if they are concerned about its dominance.

MartiniDaniels

Honestly saying, I don't see any good for argonians in PVE after this rebalance. It's not only because lizards were nerfed, but because some other races were buffed and overall pigeonholing increased and there is no "hole" for argonian other then inferior ones.

Silver_Strider

Absolutely not.
While I understand nerfs are required, the nerfs Argonian received coupled with the buffs other races received puts them at the bottom of everything.

Imperials with their sustain buff practically matches Argonian for Tank spot but the 3% cost reduction also makes Warhorn cheaper for them, giving them group utility as well as having 2k more max resources so they'll be the better Tank race.
Breton blows everyone out the water as far as healers go.
All other magic races are better DPS.
We have no place in Stamina DPS race.
PvP wise, our performance is worse off with the loss of poison resistance/immunity, weaker self heals and weaker sustain than Live.

We literally received nothing to help us out in any area of the game that we already struggled with and our performance is overall worse to a point of being overshadowed by other races; we're right back to being the worst race in the game again. How can I be content with that?

Arciris

Argonians don't live attached to the past: everything belongs to the Void in the end. Hail Sithis!



That being said, out of my current 12 characters on my main server and account (PC NA), 4 are Argonians.
And one of them is my main Main, my proud Argonian Sorcerer, Thunder-Drake, created when the best Argonian passive was the Swim Speed lol. He is Stormproof (only 1 completion, I have no interest for vMA), Former Emperor and now Paragorn/Merciless.
I am not going to race change him, he will endure more hardships, he always had.

Another is my Pacifist, no-kills character, named Kills-with-Quill, my Master Angler (yup fishing without killing anything is moar fun ). She was born under the sign of Shadow and therefore she is a NB, but her conscience objected to the Shadowscale and had to flee and choose exile - yep, a RP character, so not race changing her either.

I'll see what I'll do with the other 2, but I don't play them nearly enough to really matter.

This is why I personally barely speak of the Argonians passives, because I believe it is only decency to avoid any subject when I might be not objective about it.

But, since I feel I can be subjective in this thread, my answer is NO. Argonians received nothing but nerfs and din't even get something fun to play around with, it's just more of the same, but nerfed.

edit: them nasty typos

Arciris

@Silver_Strider

Totally agree. Argonians are back to "worst race" of the game... but at least we still have our Swimming passive

Kulvar

Epilog wrote: »

Just wondering. I don't see a lot of people talking about it.

Not that much people play Argonian (they're not "pretty"), and last PTS patch had nothing about their racial, so nothing new to bring on the forum that wasn't already said.

Roboplus

Eh.

I'd rather drop the +Healing Done for Stamina. Or more Health. Or pretty much anything, really.

But I'm not going to race-change my main over it.

MLGProPlayer

I don't play Argonian, but they suck right now. I don't see what role they could possibly fill in PvE. They are inferior tanks/healers to other races, and their DPS isn't competitive.

It's sad that ZOS didn't take this opportunity to actually balance the races properly and instead just shifted around the meta.

Faulgor

The main issue is that other races have received so many buffs, that it feels like there is no place for Argonians anymore.
The heavy emphasis on healing doesn't work well when Bretons make far superior healers and DDs. The bonus to healing done is worse than the spell power bonus from Altmer and Dunmer. Being so focused on healing also doesn't jive well with their lore as agile skirmishers.

IMO, Argonians should have been the sustain counterpart to Dunmer. Change 1000 Magicka and Health to 1875 Magicka and Stamina, and cut back on the healing done bonus if necessary. That would put them well within the current range of race bonuses, and help them be a solid sustain race option without outshining any other.

Narthalion

My Argonian is a Sorc, but he's mostly a bench warmer -- though that has less to do with his racial passives, and more to do with Sorc as a class not really inspiring me.

Even so, my answer would be: No. Not content with Argonian passives.

• The only way to get the major benefit of the race is to develop a 'drinking problem'.
• The base stat bonuses are mediocre.
• The Disease resistance seems mostly about reducing your chance of getting hit with Defile, because...
• The healing bonus is the other "flavor" passive, and it's already bland even without Defile ruining it.

There's not much to get excited about here unless you're willing to spend a fortune on potions.

I picked the race for my Sorc because I wanted him to be a healer. I figured the class's mobility and CC would be good for PvP; and the Argonian was the only magicka race with a health bonus, which I wanted for survivability. That's been nerfed, and looking at the rest of what the race has to offer compared to what the others got...I would have picked a different race. Even without thinking about his damage-dealing ability...just as a healer, I would think twice.

This is actually the one character I'm thinking about using the race change for. And I'm sad about it because I really like the character otherwise.

For the Suggestion Box:

• Add "or when you use an Ultimate" as a second condition for the potion passive (and reduce the values accordingly). Smaller but more frequently obtainable restores would expand the availability of this passive.
• Add a "Clever Alchemist"-like boost to spell/weapon damage triggered by potion and/or Ultimate use.
• Give Khajiit their crit% back and give Argonians the crit damage/healing boost instead.
• If none of the above, at least give back that health you took away by increasing it to 2000.

Koronach

The only passive worth much to anything but healer is the potion passive. The rest are just trash imo. I don't play healer so they are mostly useless to me. I won't race change but I dropped plus and won't be getting Elsweyr. It's obvious all they care about is cash grabs and selling content buffing the hell out of Khajiit and putting race change tokens on sale. I play a stamblade because I like Shadowscales and they don't assassinate people with a staff. I get penalized for playing something from my races own culture with no racial traits that reflect it.

Roboplus

The idea of Resourceful is that Argonian potions are better than other races'. So, what if we shared them? What if drinking a potion gave a portion of the effect to allies as well?

Drop the +Healing Done and make drinking a potion give 25-20% of the Resourceful effect to 3 nearby allies. That's lore appropriate and an effect that'd be desirable on a healer/tank/pvper, without being mandatory (because it's not a huge value).

dodgehopper_ESO

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Absolutely not.
While I understand nerfs are required, the nerfs Argonian received coupled with the buffs other races received puts them at the bottom of everything.

Imperials with their sustain buff practically matches Argonian for Tank spot but the 3% cost reduction also makes Warhorn cheaper for them, giving them group utility as well as having 2k more max resources so they'll be the better Tank race.
Breton blows everyone out the water as far as healers go.
All other magic races are better DPS.
We have no place in Stamina DPS race.
PvP wise, our performance is worse off with the loss of poison resistance/immunity, weaker self heals and weaker sustain than Live.

We literally received nothing to help us out in any area of the game that we already struggled with and our performance is overall worse to a point of being overshadowed by other races; we're right back to being the worst race in the game again. How can I be content with that?

I don't think a lot of us are purely happy with the changes. I personally have a gut feeling they are going to one day remove the potion passive but first they have to make the changes painful for Argonian players. This is nothing new. Argonians are familiar with suffering. The fly by night argonian crowd will probably respect but serious Argonian players will keep their characters and begrudgingly live with sub-par stats once again, which is hardly anything new in the game.

dodgehopper_ESO

Koronach wrote: »

The only passive worth much to anything but healer is the potion passive. The rest are just trash imo. I don't play healer so they are mostly useless to me. I won't race change but I dropped plus and won't be getting Elsweyr. It's obvious all they care about is cash grabs and selling content buffing the hell out of Khajiit and putting race change tokens on sale. I play a stamblade because I like Shadowscales and they don't assassinate people with a staff. I get penalized for playing something from my races own culture with no racial traits that reflect it.

Argonians aren't just shadowscales either. They're known for generally being really good at guerrilla combat. This is why they make such excellent thieves and assassins. Its in their blood much like Khajiits. Sadly the racials just don't seem to match this in ESO. Ironically, the way Khajiit racials look now (apart from the crits) look more like what I would have expected Argonian racials to be all along.

Ashanne

at least they didnt recieve the short end of the stick like dark elfs did. As stated by a dev comment argonians were overperforming compaired to other races, in some cases at least twice as effective as others. The way I see it they brought lizards back in line with the other races. But since theyre not blatantly obvious stronger than some races anymore people find a reason to QQ.

Lizard is fine. Most of the people playing them currently only switched to them because of the obviously overperforming reasons. imo they shouldve expected a bigger nerf.
in some cases, i even think argonians got a thicc buff. the difference in max mana between an argonian and highelf/breton currently on live, depending on build, can be over 3k worth of value but now its a mere 1k (1k argonian - 2k highelf/breton).

This is just my oppinion, and from a PVP perspective

BattleAxe

On live I run an argonians night blade yes to a minor degree this is gonna hurt that toon but the argonian nightblade will still be effective when I run it. Sorry Thts most I can say I main dk tank primarily.

In order of preferred classes: this is until the new class comes out
Dk
Warden
Templar
Sorc
Nightblade

Twohothardware

Argonians are still top choices for tank and healer roles because they only received minor nerfs from their previously overperforming state. In PvP the Resourceful passive, healing and Disease immunity will still make a noticeable difference in survivability. Argonian will continue to be one of the easiest Races to play because of the no effort sustain passive.

Narthalion

Ashanne wrote: »

This is just my oppinion, and from a PVP perspective

But again, this perceived superiority comes solely from treating every combat like a frat party. Chug! Chug! Chug!

I think they should tone down the values significantly, but expand it to include using an Ultimate. Then drop the 6% heal and exchange it for the 10% crit damage/healing (after giving Khajiit their crit% back). And depending on how much the potion restore is nerfed, maybe bump health up to 1500 or 2000.

Argonians are too much of a "one trick pony" race right now. The potion restore makes everybody scream "nerf!" but the rest of the passives are milk-toast.

Silver_Strider

Ashanne wrote: »

at least they didnt recieve the short end of the stick like dark elfs did. As stated by a dev comment argonians were overperforming compaired to other races, in some cases at least twice as effective as others. The way I see it they brought lizards back in line with the other races. But since theyre not blatantly obvious stronger than some races anymore people find a reason to QQ.

Lizard is fine. Most of the people playing them currently only switched to them because of the obviously overperforming reasons. imo they shouldve expected a bigger nerf.
in some cases, i even think argonians got a thicc buff. the difference in max mana between an argonian and highelf/breton currently on live, depending on build, can be over 3k worth of value but now its a mere 1k (1k argonian - 2k highelf/breton).

This is just my oppinion, and from a PVP perspective

From a PvP perspective, Argonians are practically worthless now. The majority of Defile comes from skills like Incap Strike, Lethal Arrow, Reverb Bash, sets like Durok's, and Meatbags, all of which bypass Argonian's disease resistance/immunity anyways and with no disease damage in PvE content, the passive is legit useless outside of lowering a small bit of the damage from Incap (which means nothing as getting hit with it in the 1st place all but ensures your death anyways). The Healing Done Passive is totally overshadowed by the flat boost to Weapon/Spell Damage from races like Dunmer or Altmer. This ultimately leaves only the potion passive as the only useful passive in terms of PvP and that was nerfed down that almost every other race has better sustain in any real practical application.

Argonians got screwed across the board.

rabidmyers

yeah passives need work but as an argonian only player i wont change no matter what

LMar

It'd be nice if the resistance to disease/defile applied for a few seconds to allies healed by Argonians!

Or if resourceful passive also removed one or more negative effects when consuming a potion.

Anyron

Argonians are not even close to be good. Recent nerfs meybe wasnt big, but buffing other racials means argonians are now good for nothing in every role this game has.

Their main problem and source of everything bad is Resourceful passive which looks good but in most cases it is useless.
Even if you count resourceful as good passive, there is only 1k max magicka which is less than on other races and 6% healing done which is better than altmers/ dunmers +250spell damage only when you have 4500+ spell damage unbuffed which is sad. Noone has that number.

So how we are now?

Healer ( worse than)

Altmer - because 2k magicka and 250 spell damage which is better on short fights and if you equip lich, that limitation is gone
Breton - their magicka sustain and extra 1k max magicka makes them superior in both healing and damage to all other Magicka races.
Dunmer - same thing like altmer, more max magicka and spell damage

Only who is weaker than argonians in healing are cats - but if you make crt healing build they are even better

Damage ( worse than)
Only stamina races here are worse magicka dps here, obviously i dont bother to write here which magicka races are better ( all of them).

Tanks (worse than)
Nords - their damage resistance and 500 extra in resource makes them better, unlimate generation is good too
Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
Redguards - even when this is pure stamina race, their sustain is much better than all argonian resources from passive counted together. Cost of skills and over 9,5k stamina per minute is too much.

Priyasekarssk

Epilog wrote: »

Just wondering. I don't see a lot of people talking about it.

For me it seems Argonians just got slightly nerfed (that is ok. their passives were kind of overloaded) but ZOS did not open them up for any other role (wich was one of their goals in changing racial passives besides the balancing).

So, what do you think? Should they change something?

I kind of hoped for something stamina related, maybe tri-stats, and something more versatile in place of the +6% healing (wich is kind of agains their new rules). Spell/Weapon damage would be kind of boring. But maybe something like "increase damage with DoTs and increased healing with HoTs". They could also nerf the potion passive again slightly if they are concerned about its dominance.

Same goes for every race. Can an highelf ,khajit tank ? Only useless race is bosmer. Argonian nerf is necessary.

Kulvar

Twohothardware wrote: »

Argonians are still top choices for tank and healer roles because they only received minor nerfs from their previously overperforming state. In PvP the Resourceful passive, healing and Disease immunity will still make a noticeable difference in survivability. Argonian will continue to be one of the easiest Races to play because of the no effort sustain passive.

Argonians lose the +5% Incoming Healing. Resourceful is at 87% of what it is on live.

Imperials get a new Red Diamond that is basicaly 75% of the efficiency of PTS Resourceful, but spread overtime and not relying on potion, while having a cost reduction on everything. Imperial have more Health and Stamina.

Redguards have the best Stamina sustain, more Stamina, and Weapon ability cost reduction

Nords generate ultimate while having defensive bonuses

Orcs heal themselves while having more Health and Stamina

Khajiits have tri-stat recovery, have more Stamina while slightly less Health (difference is only 175).

Orcs and Khajiits are probably the most "on par" with Argonian as Tanks.

xaraan

No. It's really starting to feel like the only people content with the passives are players that want to play other races and not see them get the benefit of the resourceful potion passive.

Every single passive has been nerfed across the board. The only thing they are suited for to compete with 'go-to' status is tanking, and honestly, their passive makes the job a little easier on the player, but they have nothing that makes them better at tanking like a Nord. (Though I like the Nord passive and think they should keep it). You also do not get the bull benefit of this passive if you don't need it, so it's often wasted in 1 or more stat return channels.

They will lose health, and even some 'dps' races will have as much of a health bonus (or close to) as they do. They have a healing out bonus, which will help healing done more than received (which seems backwards for the race) and will not offer enough to make them anything better than honorable mention for healer role anymore.

And for DPS, they will be last place of any race that gets any sort of magic bonuses for mag-dps and last place among all races for stam dps.

About the only thing they have going for them is the resourceful passive as it offers them a little help with tanking or, what gets the most attention - in PvP as even stam/mag builds still often end up being a little more hybrid than in PvE, so getting back that off-main resource from the passive can be helpful. I don't think it equals what they don't get however.

I'll say this: I play argonians b/c I want to play argonians. But if we could pick any races passives to go with our race's appearance, none of my 15 guys would be using argonians passives after the next patch. And I'll bet that most of the players in this game, despite everyone saying "it's only so-and-so# difference in max dps" would all be picking the same few racials for particular roles and ignoring the rest of them (which means its not so balanced). So at this point, Argonians are bottom tier for choice overall based on what they offer.

Morgul667

My argonian tank heal is ok with the changes

Mudcrabber

I'll probably race-change the Argonian templar main I've had for 3 years to a Khajiit when the next patch comes out.

Khajiit got a magicka buff (reduced now, but still tempting with all their hybrid buffs), and all Argonians got was an across-the-board nerf.

The top races got nerfs too, narrowing the performance gap, but Argonians were never a top race, only good at swimming, self heals, and drinking potions.

Silver_Strider

Morgul667 wrote: »

My argonian tank heal is ok with the changes

You're ok with getting nerfed across the board without something being offered in compensation, while also being completely overshadowed in every way by another race, capable of performing the same exact thing you're doing with equal or greater success?

You'll forgive me if I don't believe you.

Morgul667

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

My argonian tank heal is ok with the changes

You're ok with getting nerfed across the board without something being offered in compensation, while also being completely overshadowed in every way by another race, capable of performing the same exact thing you're doing with equal or greater success?

You'll forgive me if I don't believe you.

You re free to believe as you see fit

I know argonians were overperforming and needed a nerf

And im ok with the changes on potions and healing, they are quite ok for me. I will not change race

Sorry, i dont do drama

Kulvar

Trolling at it's finnest.

Silver_Strider

Morgul667 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

My argonian tank heal is ok with the changes

You're ok with getting nerfed across the board without something being offered in compensation, while also being completely overshadowed in every way by another race, capable of performing the same exact thing you're doing with equal or greater success?

You'll forgive me if I don't believe you.

You re free to believe as you see fit

I know argonians were overperforming and needed a nerf

And im ok with the changes on potions and healing, they are quite ok for me. I will not change race

Sorry, i dont do drama

I never said anything about race change; I honestly wish ZOS would give me crowns instead of those race change tokens as they're all useless to me. I just tend to not believe anyone being ok with being nerfed completely into the ground when the only thing that needed nerfing was the potion passive, especially when that nerf affects all areas for Argonians and not just PvP performance. We're worse at DPS, we're worse healers and we're worse tanks than before so I ask you, how are you fine with being nerfed?