Raid/Buffed DPS Test [Each Class/Each DD Race] PTS 4.3.3

JobooAGS · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

Feedback/Observations

Redguard vs Bosmer Sustain

These tests do not do justice to Bosmer sustain compared to Redguard sustain. We specifically tested sustain by using a potion and then draining all stamina on Redguard and Bosmer StamNB, then waiting 8 secs, followed by solo parsing a 3M Skeleton without Potions three times. Bosmer came out 17.5% faster on average. From this, we can deduce that in fights with breaks, Bosmer sustain is around 17.5% better than Redguard (not really an issue as both their sustain is very good)

About this, have you tested for both races to light attack something with a bow (to proc adrenline rush) as even in breaks you dont want your relequen stacks to fall off if possible a single bow light attack will keep your stacks on boss?

Like you would drain stam after potion, then light attack another dummy with both races then parse on 3M as normal and look only at 3M dummy in cmx.

geonsocal · February 2019

so, what happened to the nords?

IronWooshu · February 2019

geonsocal wrote: »

so, what happened to the nords?

I've been telling ZOS since the first patch notes that Nord is still not in a good place and then they reply with "we are watching Nords" as if they are a threat because everyone cried they might be BiS tanking.

I've developed a hate for Imperial players who were the ones crying over Nord and their class and ZoS goes out of their way to buff them up.

Losers the lot of them on this forum.

Jhalin · February 2019

And in one fell swoop Khajiit isn’t even in a single top two spot for any class in stam OR mag

This needs to get reverted with the next patch

Deloth_Vyrr · February 2019

joaaocaampos wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I personally believe Khajiit could use some rebalancing given Dunmer can also excel in Stamina far better than Khajiit atm, almost BiS but yes, balance is great.

In my opinion, Khajiit and Dark Elf should be in 3rd position in both Magicka and Stamina builds.

That is,

Magicka
1º: Breton or High Elf.

2º: Breton or High Elf.

3º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.

4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.

5º: Argonian.

Stamina
1º: Redguard or Wood Elf.

2º: Redguard or Wood Elf.

3º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.

4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit

5º: Orc.

6º: Imperial.

The price to pay for being a hybrid.

This makes the assumption that there needs to be a "hybrid tax", there doesn't. Just because a race can play more than one role, doesn't justify being weaker in the roll. If true hybrids were a thing, maybe, but they are not. You have to specialize regardless, so the viability of other roles becomes a non-factor. If I'm a mag dps, I don't care how well my race can tank, it has no bearing to me whatsoever. The hybrid tax concept is flawed.

Draxys · February 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

And in one fell swoop Khajiit isn’t even in a single top two spot for any class in stam OR mag

This needs to get reverted with the next patch

Most races aren’t. And most people won’t even notice the gap because these tests are from the top end of dps range. You need better logic to revert this than “it needs to be reverted”.

I’m not saying don’t revert it, but my goal is balance. There are a lot of tunnel visioned fur lovers on this forum who want khajiit to be top dps for no reason other than they like them.

Armann · February 2019

geonsocal wrote: »

so, what happened to the nords?

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:

DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)

It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.

I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer need to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.

BRODY · February 2019

You do great support for people in this game. Thanks!

VeiledCriticism · February 2019

Let me get this straight... even with a 'not so useful' (being generous) passive for PVE, High Elves still came out strong in this balance cycle. Huh.
Still have to question what is the intented identity for this race and why pick them over dunmer for instance, since the gap between its damage output is mediocre.

Goren · February 2019

@susmitds why did you not include nords in your test?

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

joaaocaampos wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Magicka Races
High Elf: 59,695

Dark Elf: 59,508

Breton: 59,495

Khajiit: 58,581

Argonian: 58,098

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Stamina Races.
Orc: 63,424

Dark Elf: 63,307

Redguard: 62,613

Khajiit: 62,466

Wood Elf: 62,448

Imperial: 62,334

In other words,
Redguard => Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 4 seconds.

Wood Elf => Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 10% Movement Speed for 6 seconds, add a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 1980 for the duration.

I seriously doubt they used roll-dodge in bosmers rotation, so increase of this penetration won't change anything.

Heimpai · February 2019

I appreciate all the testing, though my dps isn’t high enough to matter 🤗

I was thinking about going Breton on my magblade since pugging vet dungeons i tend to have sustain issues on my Altmer

colossalvoids · February 2019

joaaocaampos wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I personally believe Khajiit could use some rebalancing given Dunmer can also excel in Stamina far better than Khajiit atm, almost BiS but yes, balance is great.

In my opinion, Khajiit and Dark Elf should be in 3rd position in both Magicka and Stamina builds.

That is,

Magicka
1º: Breton or High Elf.

2º: Breton or High Elf.

3º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.

4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.

5º: Argonian.

Stamina
1º: Redguard or Wood Elf.

2º: Redguard or Wood Elf.

3º: Dark Elf or Khajiit.

4º: Dark Elf or Khajiit

5º: Orc.

6º: Imperial.

The price to pay for being a hybrid.

See no logic here, sustain option should offer less dps thats for sure as you're gaining dps with less heavy attacks ratio in raid having a good sustainable position, compared to unsustainable options doing heavys fom time to time and sacrificing for sustain. No sustain should offer greater damage output as they will still need to build their sustain elsewhere or it's unplayable target dummy build.
And price for being a hybrid written as they can be any good. They are not and this hybridization should offer them second place or being cast into void with both roles.

Khajiit could have some love tho, as it is more of a limiting option to run with need of high crit setup. Probably splitting passive like +x amount of crit chance/crit damage (5/5%?, 6/4%?) way can a bit fix this situation.

dave_harter_ESO · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:

DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)

It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.

I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer needs to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.

Yeah, with more survivability and more self sustain there is no doubt that Bretons will be the number one dps pick for magika dps. Alcast was right on the money. Personal sustain is simply more reliable for situations when things don't go as planned. This is especially true for guilds that haven't perfected their coordination, but this does effect to everyone.

Faulgor · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

Imperial

These changes are feeling great for Imperial. Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit. The parses show how much their DPS improved. Though I specifically did not test this, I think based on the rest that using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS. They should be at least Argonian level on Magicka DPS too.

The ultimate cost reduction, great sustain and huge resources would put them on the level of Nord easily for tanking, if not higher.

I wonder if a Nord DPS could use Lava Foot as well? They might get away with less HP because of their resistances.
However, with Imperials now being competent DPS as well as tanks, I think Nords might be deserving a small buff. Even Argonians, too.

Mygalomorpea · February 2019

Just wondering... Why is there so much anti-orc sentiment? People really seem to want the top 2 stamina races to both be regen based. Why not a race that has better brute force than the hybrid dunmer? This way, no matter how meta changes, dunmer will never be Bis because orc will be better as stamina and high elf will be better as magicka.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Mygalomorpea wrote: »

Just wondering... Why is there so much anti-orc sentiment? People really seem to want the top 2 stamina races to both be regen based. Why not a race that has better brute force than the hybrid dunmer? This way, no matter how meta changes, dunmer will never be Bis because orc will be better as stamina and high elf will be better as magicka.

Well, from the test you may see that secondary passives doesn't affect dps. I mean only max stamina, WD and sustain (converted to WD with berserker) matters. So dunmer and orc are almost the same in ideal raid environment. But out of the ideal raid (lfg trial, pug dlc vets) orc have 1000 Health, speed and proc health recovery and closest competitor - dunmer - has only extra 1875 magicka, which is almost useless to stamina dps. And other races are even weaker then dunmer in comparison to orc.
At this point I'm considering to switch my redguard stamwarden to tanking.

wnights · February 2019

Wow these tests really show that you can play any race that you want and you will still be able to complete vet content. I love this. Means I am no longer stuck with Dunmer - altmer - breton choices when it comes to picking a magicka DD class.

zaria · February 2019

wnights wrote: »

Wow these tests really show that you can play any race that you want and you will still be able to complete vet content. I love this. Means I am no longer stuck with Dunmer - altmer - breton choices when it comes to picking a magicka DD class.

We never was, difference is an bit down from live but has never been above 8% worst case.
Most players over estimates the value of racials a lot.

Nox_Noir · February 2019

Great work with these tests!

So here's proof that Orc is is completely and consistently outparsing everything else for Stam, while also having more HP than most races at the same time. Oh boy... I thought this was pretty obvious just from lookin at the numbers, but now heres actual proof... I really hope ZOS takes another look at this, seems like a massive oversight.

IlCanis_LupuslI · February 2019

nsmurfer wrote: »

So Dunmer DOES beats Khajiit in everything. I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG.

MagDK Difference - 658
MagNB Difference - 717
MagSorc Difference - 832
MagPlar Difference - 709
MagDen Difference - 843
StamDK Difference - 692
StamNB Difference - 836
StamSorc Difference - 973
StamPlar Difference - 808
StamDen Difference - 800

also now, we have another semi-Hybrid race, i.e. Imperial.

susmitds wrote: »

Imperial
Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit.

susmitds wrote: »

using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS

They have very close DPS to Khajiit, with higher total resources, higher sustain, ultimate cost reduction. Why anyone use Khajiit now, outside of PvP gankers?

@Masel @Joy_Division @Checkmath

People who just like beeing khajiit like this one

zaria · February 2019

Nox_Noir wrote: »

Great work with these tests!

So here's proof that Orc is is completely and consistently outparsing everything else for Stam, while also having more HP than most races at the same time. Oh boy... I thought this was pretty obvious just from lookin at the numbers, but now heres actual proof... I really hope ZOS takes another look at this, seems like a massive oversight.

By buffing the others

Dunmer is very close and has the benefit of can also play magic there they are also balanced well.
Let us use them as baseline as they has easy to predict passives.
Minor buffs to the rest and we are golden.
Bosmer need an better passive than penetration on roll doge who will be their buff.

Juhasow · February 2019

@susmitds were You also had minor vulnerability and crusher provided in pasres for stamina builds ?

idk · February 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

@susmitds were You also had minor vulnerability and crusher provided in pasres for stamina builds ?

While a good question, they seem pretty thorough detailing how the test was performed.

Rake · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

wnights wrote: »

Wow these tests really show that you can play any race that you want and you will still be able to complete vet content. I love this. Means I am no longer stuck with Dunmer - altmer - breton choices when it comes to picking a magicka DD class.

We never was, difference is an bit down from live but has never been above 8% worst case.
Most players over estimates the value of racials a lot.

I would like to see difference between these races and races that are not ment to be DDs in that particular resource.
Like breton for stamina races, orc for magicka races, nord for any DD role etc.

Vildebill · February 2019

Rake wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

wnights wrote: »

Wow these tests really show that you can play any race that you want and you will still be able to complete vet content. I love this. Means I am no longer stuck with Dunmer - altmer - breton choices when it comes to picking a magicka DD class.

We never was, difference is an bit down from live but has never been above 8% worst case.
Most players over estimates the value of racials a lot.

I would like to see difference between these races and races that are not ment to be DDs in that particular resource.
Like breton for stamina races, orc for magicka races, nord for any DD role etc.

They would probably be close to equal to the no racial post that's in the parses since the passives don't contribute to DPS.

Brrrofski · February 2019

Was thinking of turning my mag sorc into a dark elf so I could go Stam if I wanted to. Looks like an easy choice as it's 2nd best dps for mag and stam

MikaHR · February 2019

dave_harter_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:

DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)

It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.

I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer needs to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.

Yeah, with more survivability and more self sustain there is no doubt that Bretons will be the number one dps pick for magika dps. Alcast was right on the money. Personal sustain is simply more reliable for situations when things don't go as planned. This is especially true for guilds that haven't perfected their coordination, but this does effect to everyone.

High Elf has much much better survivability with stamina regen than Breton facepalm

Whose number one pick? Very tiny and very vocal but irrelevant part of playerbase? Alcast has 100 views on twitch, is it worth it screwing everyone else who plays the game because of 100 people?

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

So Altmer and Breton are virtually identical:

DK: +433 (0.7%)
NB: -449 (0.7%)
Sorc: -219 (0.36%)
Temp: -6 (0.001%)

It seems that variance in the data is greater than any real difference between them.

I can't see any scenario where Altmer would be the preferred race under those margins. Breton gives you virtually identical DPS in addition to superior sustain and survivability. Altmer need to have a bigger reason to pick them. It doesn't need to be more DPS, but something like more health or stronger shields.

Confirmation that there is no significant difference between the two samples:

That means Breton is the clear-cut BiS race for magicka DD as they get extra sustain at no DPS loss.