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Let's talk About the PTS v4.3.2 Racial Passive Changes (Updated with PTS v4.3.2 data)

  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I have updated the 4.3.1 numbers with my new 4.3.2 testing data.

    None of my suggestions have changed. My testing data mirrored my hypotheses.
  • lassitershawn
    lassitershawn
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    A lot of the changes look good but I don't really see a point to nuking breton. Even with the 7% cost reduc most people aren't going to use the race on a DD role anyways and nuking it back down to 3% leaves the race almost no better than on live. The ability to DPS in bifood is going to be the saving grace for giving Breton acceptable DPS and fits into the theme of "tanky DPS" because you get more HP. Especially important for lower sustain classes like sorcerer. If you don't want them to overshadow argonians as healers just make argonians good, not Bretons bad again. Sustain races only work in my opinion if the sustain is strong enough to actually do something with it (run bifood in this case). I'm also not sure why altmer needs a damage nerf to get the sustain back, kind of feels like one step forward one step back for them. The rest of the changes I agree with or am indifferent to.
    William Thorne (main) - Breton Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    - Flawless, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Immortal Redeemer
    Erik Ironskin - Nord Dragonknight Tank - EP NA
    - Gryphon Heart
    Venasa Viri - Dunmer Nightblade DPS - EP NA
    - Flawless, Immortal Redeemer x2
    Shade of Relequen - Altmer Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    - Immortal Redeemer
    Astrid Winterborn - Breton Warden Tank - EP NA
    - Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer
    Durak gro-Durog - Orc Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    Asim al-Azdi - Redguard Warden DPS - EP NA
    Markynaz Volar - Dunmer Dragonknight DPS - EP NA
    - Flawless

    Nightfighters - Lassi's Rock Collection
  • ExpatJohnny
    ExpatJohnny
    Soul Shriven
    I do like the idea of making dps races more even while still retaining a little variety unique to each race. This increases the usability of less used races in end-game content.
    In contrast, I do not believe non-dps classes, such as argonian, nord, imperial, or breton(in some situations), should be given less tanking or healing skill, in favor of additional ability to dps.
    Please leave certain classes so they can excel in tanking or healing and not be as good for other things. To put this into perspective, how many would want top performing dps classes changed to not perform well, but have tanking or healing attributes? Not many.
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I do like the idea of making dps races more even while still retaining a little variety unique to each race. This increases the usability of less used races in end-game content.
    In contrast, I do not believe non-dps classes, such as argonian, nord, imperial, or breton(in some situations), should be given less tanking or healing skill, in favor of additional ability to dps.
    Please leave certain classes so they can excel in tanking or healing and not be as good for other things. To put this into perspective, how many would want top performing dps classes changed to not perform well, but have tanking or healing attributes? Not many.
    Tanking and Healing attributes are naturally undesirable due to the lack of flexibility in being able to put those attributes to good use in a DPS role; Imperials wouldn't be able to make use of their max Health to benefit their DPS, and Argonians wouldn't be able to make use of their Healing Done.

    Conversely, DPS attributes are much more flexible because those attributes are either still useful on a Tanking or Healing role; Redguard tanks can simply just put fewer points into Stamina and more points into Health to make good use of their Stamina pool, and healing abilities still scale off of the Max Magicka and Spell Damage that Altmer and Dunmer have.

    The thing here is that any race can excel in Tanking and Healing due to those roles not having any perceivable skill ceiling. What I mean is that a player of enough skill can tank just as effectively on an Altmer tank as they can on an Argonian tank, with Engulfing and Alkosh uptimes and everything, because Tanking and Healing are based more on player skill than raw stats. DPS is entirely different: a player of a maximum skill level on a certain DPS will always deal more damage on a Dunmer compared to a Nord, because there is a damage-ceiling for each race that is limited by their stats.

    As much as I agree that people wouldn't want their races to suddenly have passives that are useless to them (case-in-point, PTS4.3.2 Altmer), people also don't want their races to be at the bottom with passives that are not enough for them. Based on my reasoning above that DPS stats are more useful all around, it is better for the races that originally had a ton of utility to get some damage with it as well, and in turn, the races that had a lot of damage could trade a tiny bit of that in for a bit of utility. Ultimately, there will always be a BiS DPS race; I'm just looking to lower that gap and make every race still viable for DPS without disrupting the hierarchy too much.
    A lot of the changes look good but I don't really see a point to nuking breton. Even with the 7% cost reduc most people aren't going to use the race on a DD role anyways and nuking it back down to 3% leaves the race almost no better than on live. The ability to DPS in bifood is going to be the saving grace for giving Breton acceptable DPS and fits into the theme of "tanky DPS" because you get more HP. Especially important for lower sustain classes like sorcerer. If you don't want them to overshadow argonians as healers just make argonians good, not Bretons bad again. Sustain races only work in my opinion if the sustain is strong enough to actually do something with it (run bifood in this case). I'm also not sure why altmer needs a damage nerf to get the sustain back, kind of feels like one step forward one step back for them. The rest of the changes I agree with or am indifferent to.
    While I agree that the Breton sustain passive and making them able to sustain on the same level as other races with non-sustain food is a very interesting idea, it also makes them overpoweringly strong for Healing that basically makes them a no-brainer over everything else, even Argonians, a race that, right now, is shoehorned into Healing. That is why I want to nerf their sustain. In any case, I still want them to have superior Magicka sustain to Argonians, and I believe that they can make up for the loss in DPS for having to put Clockwork Citrus Filet on again by just having a bigger Magicka pool. I know that I've only increased their max Magicka by 250 in my suggestions, but I think I could increase that to 750 or even 1000 to increase their damage and Magicka Pool (very important to sustain as well) without making their sustain too powerful compared to Argonians.

    I don't believe sustain races should be able to replace the food that other races would typically be using in the same scenarios for the same sustain performance. I think that they should still be on the same food, but with enough differences to affect the number of Heavy Attacks / Spell Symmetry casts they would be using.

    Another thing is about Altmer. My reasoning for wanting to nerf Altmer damage is that Altmer are already at the top for DPS, still far too much ahead of other races (aside from Khajiit); they don't need another step forward. My goal with that is to make them like Bretons, but still with more damage and much less sustain, with Altmer still being at the top for Magicka DPS in general. Perhaps nerfing their Spell Damage down to 129 is a bit too much, but in the end these numbers can be tweaked.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 10, 2019 10:18PM
  • lassitershawn
    lassitershawn
    ✭✭✭✭
    A lot of the changes look good but I don't really see a point to nuking breton. Even with the 7% cost reduc most people aren't going to use the race on a DD role anyways and nuking it back down to 3% leaves the race almost no better than on live. The ability to DPS in bifood is going to be the saving grace for giving Breton acceptable DPS and fits into the theme of "tanky DPS" because you get more HP. Especially important for lower sustain classes like sorcerer. If you don't want them to overshadow argonians as healers just make argonians good, not Bretons bad again. Sustain races only work in my opinion if the sustain is strong enough to actually do something with it (run bifood in this case). I'm also not sure why altmer needs a damage nerf to get the sustain back, kind of feels like one step forward one step back for them. The rest of the changes I agree with or am indifferent to.
    While I agree that the Breton sustain passive and making them able to sustain on the same level as other races with non-sustain food is a very interesting idea, it also makes them overpoweringly strong for Healing that basically makes them a no-brainer over everything else, even Argonians, a race that, right now, is shoehorned into Healing. That is why I want to nerf their sustain. In any case, I still want them to have superior Magicka sustain to Argonians, and I believe that they can make up for the loss in DPS for having to put Clockwork Citrus Filet on again by just having a bigger Magicka pool. I know that I've only increased their max Magicka by 250 in my suggestions, but I think I could increase that to 750 or even 1000 to increase their damage and Magicka Pool (very important to sustain as well) without making their sustain too powerful compared to Argonians.

    I don't believe sustain races should be able to replace the food that other races would typically be using in the same scenarios for the same sustain performance. I think that they should still be on the same food, but with enough differences to affect the number of Heavy Attacks / Spell Symmetry casts they would be using.

    Another thing is about Altmer. My reasoning for wanting to nerf Altmer damage is that Altmer are already at the top for DPS, still far too much ahead of other races (aside from Khajiit); they don't need another step forward. My goal with that is to make them like Bretons, but still with more damage and much less sustain, with Altmer still being at the top for Magicka DPS in general. Perhaps nerfing their Spell Damage down to 129 is a bit too much, but in the end these numbers can be tweaked.

    If the magicka pool was increased by 1000 instead of something inconsequential like 250, I could be brought around to your point of view. I'm just very concerned that nerfing sustain to the point of not being able to benefit from bifood would be overly harmful to bretons on DPS. Nightblades for example don't ever have to heavy attack or spell sym anyways. More sustain is just overkill and unnecessary unless the racial is strong enough that they could benefit from bifood. In a lot of content with strong enough support even my sorc can get away with minimal or no spell syms/heavies in clockwork. If sustain is nerfed back to 3% where bifood is impossible, I don't see anyone realistically using bretons on DPS, even on sorcs. A little easier but more or less meaningless sustain is nothing compared to 8 (or even 6%) crit or 259 SD. Even if current PTS breton goes live rn, I really don't see it being dominating as a DPS race.

    This is pretty much why I believe that nerfing breton to hurt its potential as support (in which it may be overtuned a bit right now, I recognize this is a valid concern) is the wrong way to go. It puts bretons back into their current live state of being sucky DPS and just one of a few viable support races.

    I think one good way to go about increasing the support potential of other races is making it so that they can positively affect their team directly. ZoS kind of did this with nord and it has been criticized but I don't think it is a bad idea in essence (perhaps ulti is not the right way and/or fine tuning needed). Using argonians as an example, what if ZoS provided them with a way to say... restore resources to teammates when healing them. It could be tacked on with the SD passive for argonians that you proposed and then supports would have a valid option. Breton for easier self-sustain, argonian for more group support. And unlike the nord change this doesn't directly improve the damage potential of your group so it is less likely to incur cries about being overpowered while still being exceptionally useful. And it also indirectly helps argonian DPS because you still heal your allies with healing combustion and sometimes other skills therefore making an argonian DPS slot more valuable than it would be otherwise.
    William Thorne (main) - Breton Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    - Flawless, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Immortal Redeemer
    Erik Ironskin - Nord Dragonknight Tank - EP NA
    - Gryphon Heart
    Venasa Viri - Dunmer Nightblade DPS - EP NA
    - Flawless, Immortal Redeemer x2
    Shade of Relequen - Altmer Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    - Immortal Redeemer
    Astrid Winterborn - Breton Warden Tank - EP NA
    - Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer
    Durak gro-Durog - Orc Sorcerer DPS - EP NA
    Asim al-Azdi - Redguard Warden DPS - EP NA
    Markynaz Volar - Dunmer Dragonknight DPS - EP NA
    - Flawless

    Nightfighters - Lassi's Rock Collection
  • luen79rwb17_ESO
    luen79rwb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very well documented analisys. I think numbers are looking very good. Much better than the horrible mess we've gotten the last 5 years.

    Despite all this fierce campaign on forums Altmer is on a very good spot.

    I like the Argonian proposed change at least it's something for DPS.

    Other proposed changes like the Breton seem too bold and I don't agree with.

    Thanks for the effort for this great work! :smile:
    PC/DC/NAserver

    V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk
  • kojou
    kojou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't get why you do an analysis and then feel like everything needs to be changed... You analysis is somewhat useful on its own, but your opinions are less so.

    Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton were all within 2% of each other, so I would call that pretty balanced.

    I think the combat team should look at some of the utility passives, but everything is pretty well balanced at this point, so I would say it would be better if they left the Stat passives alone and not waste their time to keep massaging numbers that will only make 1-2% difference in DPS anyway.
    Playing since beta...
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    kojou wrote: »
    I don't get why you do an analysis and then feel like everything needs to be changed... You analysis is somewhat useful on its own, but your opinions are less so.
    "hurr durr i don't know why you would do an analysis and then form an opinion of your own based on your own analysis."

    Yeah I can do my own analysis and then make suggestions based on that analysis with influence from my vast experience at raiding in this game.

    So you can *** right off.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on February 12, 2019 8:35AM
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