You know it makes sense.
The Resourceful passive is widely regarded as OP in PvP, and pretty good but a lot of wasted resources in PvE (Who needs all three resources filled at once in any challenging content when you have healers and tanks?) It is precisely because it's so hated in PvP that any discussion about Argonian balance gets shut down by "What are you complaining about??"
If at least half it became an over time resource restore, it wouldn't be as much of a crutch in PvP as some contend, and in PvE it would allow you to mitigate the waste by using some resource as it fills up.
So instead of:
Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina
It should be:
Whenever you drink a potion you immediately restore 2000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina, and an additional H, M and S over 10 seconds
(obviously open to suggestion)
And if we make this change, maybe some people will allow us to unzip our pieholes and talk about Argonians having some DPS capability, not just forever tanks and healers, which are far less stat dependent than DPS. Healing done is trumped by raw spell damage in utility and effectiveness. Healing is good, but spell damage is better. On live servers, magic damage is translated as elemental damage bonus, and healing is healing. There is no overlap. On PTS, magic damage is now spell damage, which is also healing. So now Altmer and Dunmer players have a bonus which helps them be healers in some content, and damage dealers in other content. For people with a main that they want to unlock all achievements on this is a very big deal. Healing done doesn't do any damage.
I'm not saying Argonians have to be great DPS, or even good DPS (anyway that's what practicing rotations are for), what I would like to see is something lore-friendly that acknowledges the possibility that you could use them for DPS and not get laughed at. Something like 75–128 spl/wpn damage boost when healed, with a cool down. It would represent vigor granted by the hist, a boost that the hist gives in times of danger. During the Oblivion crisis, the hist trees granted Argonians with superhuman strength, speed and resilience in order to push the Daedric invasion back through their own gates. Such was the fury of their onslaught that the Daedric generals shut the gates rather than deal with the roided up lizards. A minor damage boost on heal would be very legal and very cool.
(If this were enacted then I would think the healing done passive should be reduced back to 4% or 3%.)
It would be great to have these changes made simply to test them out while we have a PTS in front of us. I'm confident the backloaded resourceful passive would be welcomed by most. And I hope the Hist Vigor passive would be seen as a minor boon to a race that has seen nothing but nerfs this patch.
You know it makes sense.
The Resourceful passive is widely regarded as OP in PvP, and pretty good but a lot of wasted resources in PvE (Who needs all three resources filled at once in any challenging content when you have healers and tanks?) It is precisely because it's so hated in PvP that any discussion about Argonian balance gets shut down by "What are you complaining about??"
If at least half it became an over time resource restore, it wouldn't be as much of a crutch in PvP as some contend, and in PvE it would allow you to mitigate the waste by using some resource as it fills up.
So instead of:
Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina
It should be:
Whenever you drink a potion you immediately restore 2000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina, and an additional H, M and S over 10 seconds
(obviously open to suggestion)
And if we make this change, maybe some people will allow us to unzip our pieholes and talk about Argonians having some DPS capability, not just forever tanks and healers, which are far less stat dependent than DPS. Healing done is trumped by raw spell damage in utility and effectiveness. Healing is good, but spell damage is better. On live servers, magic damage is translated as elemental damage bonus, and healing is healing. There is no overlap. On PTS, magic damage is now spell damage, which is also healing. So now Altmer and Dunmer players have a bonus which helps them be healers in some content, and damage dealers in other content. For people with a main that they want to unlock all achievements on this is a very big deal. Healing done doesn't do any damage.
I'm not saying Argonians have to be great DPS, or even good DPS (anyway that's what practicing rotations are for), what I would like to see is something lore-friendly that acknowledges the possibility that you could use them for DPS and not get laughed at. Something like 75–128 spl/wpn damage boost when healed, with a cool down. It would represent vigor granted by the hist, a boost that the hist gives in times of danger. During the Oblivion crisis, the hist trees granted Argonians with superhuman strength, speed and resilience in order to push the Daedric invasion back through their own gates. Such was the fury of their onslaught that the Daedric generals shut the gates rather than deal with the roided up lizards. A minor damage boost on heal would be very legal and very cool.
(If this were enacted then I would think the healing done passive should be reduced back to 4% or 3%.)
It would be great to have these changes made simply to test them out while we have a PTS in front of us. I'm confident the backloaded resourceful passive would be welcomed by most. And I hope the Hist Vigor passive would be seen as a minor boon to a race that has seen nothing but nerfs this patch.
I think argonias are fine as they are as of last change made to them
With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live
In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.
Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only
Please, do not do this
validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live
In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.
Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only
Please, do not do this
It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.
validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live
In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.
Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only
Please, do not do this
It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.
validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live
In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.
Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only
Please, do not do this
It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.
Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.
But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.
Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.
But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.
They said they wanted to give freedom in builds, our racial passives are worthless for anything but healing. That is my main problem with them, they give no freedom at all. Most of them are useless in what I want to play as.
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.
Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.
But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.
They said they wanted to give freedom in builds, our racial passives are worthless for anything but healing. That is my main problem with them, they give no freedom at all. Most of them are useless in what I want to play as.
And I'm saying you should stop listening to what they say and take a look at what they do. At competitive level some races will always be behind so ZOS hasn't bothered to spend time on a futile attempt to balance it. The only way to fix it is to remove racials and this option was not on the table.
Argonian still makes a viable DD with extra flavor of being sturdier and offering stronger off-heals. They are also still competitive as tanks especially on non-DKs who can use extra burst based sustain. But they will never hit the numbers of Altmer or sustain of Breton as magDD or Orc/Redguard as stamDD and that is definitely intentional.
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.
Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.
But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.
They said they wanted to give freedom in builds, our racial passives are worthless for anything but healing. That is my main problem with them, they give no freedom at all. Most of them are useless in what I want to play as.
And I'm saying you should stop listening to what they say and take a look at what they do. At competitive level some races will always be behind so ZOS hasn't bothered to spend time on a futile attempt to balance it. The only way to fix it is to remove racials and this option was not on the table.
Argonian still makes a viable DD with extra flavor of being sturdier and offering stronger off-heals. They are also still competitive as tanks especially on non-DKs who can use extra burst based sustain. But they will never hit the numbers of Altmer or sustain of Breton as magDD or Orc/Redguard as stamDD and that is definitely intentional.
validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »This was a very long post to ultimately just ask for some argonian spell or wep damage. But sure.
Silver_Strider wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live
In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.
Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only
Please, do not do this
It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.
So the reduced survivability, sustain and damage is all in our heads, right?
Regarding the resourceful passiv:
OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.
So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
Would still rather just drop the +Healing Done in favor of... Well anything really. +Health, +Magicka, +Stamina, +Weapon Power, +Spell Power, +Weapon Crit, +Spell Crit, +Crit Damage, +Healing Received, Reduced Detection Radius- just about anything.
But nerfing Resourcefulness by such a minor degree isn't going to cause them to give us SP/WP. They'd just nerf it and potions would be a thing you have to drink actively, instead of the option for drinking them reactively.
vesselwiththepestle wrote: »Argonian is BiS for Race Change now.
Would still rather just drop the +Healing Done in favor of... Well anything really. +Health, +Magicka, +Stamina, +Weapon Power, +Spell Power, +Weapon Crit, +Spell Crit, +Crit Damage, +Healing Received, Reduced Detection Radius- just about anything.
But nerfing Resourcefulness by such a minor degree isn't going to cause them to give us SP/WP. They'd just nerf it and potions would be a thing you have to drink actively, instead of the option for drinking them reactively.